Why are the Greil Mercenaries so poor?

[OrangeCrush980]

And by poor I mean DIRT poor.

[Interceptor]

Too much charity work. See: Ch 3, PoR.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Because Ike spent it all on Mia

Too much charity work.

Damnit Int.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Vergil

[Liz]

one time i did charity work.

i didn't get paid. those dastards!

Edited December 8, 2009 by Cherry Cherry Boom Boom

[Junkhead]

Because Ike spent it all on Mia

Too much charity work.

I know I would...

Actually, it was on Heather.

Yeah, they are just humble merchants, Shinon and Gatrie only expect fame and fortune, but Titania thought them that the people are more important. But they aren't "DIRT" poor either, they have enough funds to rely on food & supplies.

[NinjaMonkey]

Because Ike spent it all on Mia

You mean steroids...

[Mekkah]

in before (or arguably after) int's sig

Edited December 9, 2009 by Mekkah

[Oujay]

Ike is just too cool for money

[Defeatist Elitist]

Money is for the bourgeoisie, and the Greil Mercenaries are just too cool for that. They're clearly an undercover section of the Red Army planning to spread Communism to other dimensions. This is why they support such rulers as Elincia who support the proletariat as opposed to those in Begnion who are filthy Capitalist pigs.

They are immediately comrades with the common folk because they both understand what it is like to suffer under the yolk of the manager, the business owner, the tyrant!

[shadowofchaos]

Money is for the bourgeoisie, and the Greil Mercenaries are just too cool for that. They're clearly an undercover section of the Red Army planning to spread Communism to other dimensions. This is why they support such rulers as Elincia who support the proletariat as opposed to those in Begnion who are filthy Capitalist pigs.

They are immediately comrades with the common folk because they both understand what it is like to suffer under the yolk of the manager, the business owner, the tyrant!

That sir, was just pure gold...

[Defeatist Elitist]

Money is for the bourgeoisie, and the Greil Mercenaries are just too cool for that. They're clearly an undercover section of the Red Army planning to spread Communism to other dimensions. This is why they support such rulers as Elincia who support the proletariat as opposed to those in Begnion who are filthy Capitalist pigs.

They are immediately comrades with the common folk because they both understand what it is like to suffer under the yolk of the manager, the business owner, the tyrant!

That sir, was just pure gold...

Pure potatoes comrade, the use of precious but useless metals to indicate worth is just one of the many tools that are used to control the common man and put him down!

The use of Gold as currency should be outlawed outright, instead each person would be issued with vouchers that could be exchanged for the equipment they required. For example, Titania could have a Speedwing voucher that she could trade in for a Speedwing, as it is determined that her need of it, combined with the glory she will bring to her comrades from its use is greater than that of the other members of our glorious revolution.

[Victor Fang]

Makalov borrowed it from Gaitre because Geofree threatened to break his legs if he gambled away any more of the CRK funds. When the GMs returned at the end of part two he had already scarpered.

[Colonel M]

And by poor I mean DIRT poor.

Sandbagging for DB is just that much fun.

[Mikethfc]

Money is for the bourgeoisie, and the Greil Mercenaries are just too cool for that. They're clearly an undercover section of the Red Army planning to spread Communism to other dimensions. This is why they support such rulers as Elincia who support the proletariat as opposed to those in Begnion who are filthy Capitalist pigs.

They are immediately comrades with the common folk because they both understand what it is like to suffer under the yolk of the manager, the business owner, the tyrant!

Are you sure your not me because I would've said roughly the same thing with a reference to Karl Marx's beard and normallly you beat me to making the offensive jokes in fftf

[Original Alear]

Money is for the bourgeoisie, and the Greil Mercenaries are just too cool for that. They're clearly an undercover section of the Red Army planning to spread Communism to other dimensions. This is why they support such rulers as Elincia who support the proletariat as opposed to those in Begnion who are filthy Capitalist pigs.

They are immediately comrades with the common folk because they both understand what it is like to suffer under the yolk of the manager, the business owner, the tyrant!

As an orthodox Marxist I deplore this point of view. The idea that a proletariat revolution can take place prior to a bourgeois revolution is a Leninist myth perpetuated by those who do not understand the historical tendencies outlined by the man who best understood capitalism. Moreover, the system perpetuated by the Crimean aristocrats is at best a crude communism, where "equal" rights are still posited even though a motto of "from each according to his means, to each according to his means" prevails (as seen in the attempt to give Ike peerage as a reward for his martial prowess). Thankfully, Comrade Ike refused to be bought so easily.

Pure potatoes comrade, the use of precious but useless metals to indicate worth is just one of the many tools that are used to control the common man and put him down!

The use of Gold as currency should be outlawed outright, instead each person would be issued with vouchers that could be exchanged for the equipment they required. For example, Titania could have a Speedwing voucher that she could trade in for a Speedwing, as it is determined that her need of it, combined with the glory she will bring to her comrades from its use is greater than that of the other members of our glorious revolution.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5354/[

[Defeatist Elitist]

Money is for the bourgeoisie, and the Greil Mercenaries are just too cool for that. They're clearly an undercover section of the Red Army planning to spread Communism to other dimensions. This is why they support such rulers as Elincia who support the proletariat as opposed to those in Begnion who are filthy Capitalist pigs.

They are immediately comrades with the common folk because they both understand what it is like to suffer under the yolk of the manager, the business owner, the tyrant!

As an orthodox Marxist I deplore this point of view. The idea that a proletariat revolution can take place prior to a bourgeois revolution is a Leninist myth perpetuated by those who do not understand the historical tendencies outlined by the man who best understood capitalism. Moreover, the system perpetuated by the Crimean aristocrats is at best a crude communism, where "equal" rights are still posited even though a motto of "from each according to his means, to each according to his means" prevails (as seen in the attempt to give Ike peerage as a reward for his martial prowess). Thankfully, Comrade Ike refused to be bought so easily.

But you see, Begnion is clearly ruled by the merchant class. It may not be apparent, but a well trained eye can spot the evils of Capitalism seeped into their society. I have a theory that a bourgeois revolution took place at a much earlier date, and this is why the Senate exists and the Apostle does not have complete power. Sure, they claim to be a Theocracy, but that's just a farce, and the apostle a figurehead, put up by the wealthy senators as they control government through their sickening affluence and wealth pilfered from the common people.

While Crimea is far from perfect, they have made great progress, especially compared to the disgustingly corpulent Begnion and the ultra retarded Daien. Comrade Ike is a real man of the people, and thus he choose to live like the people, and this explains why he lives on in the hearts and minds of the masses even after his disappearance. It is also clear that Queen Elincia intends to continue this trend, as she shows great interest in helping the common person of Crimea.

I have formulated additional ideas as well:

"Crepe Knight says (11:50 PM):

Well

Oliver joined them

The mercenaries that is

He's a bourgeoise

Right?

I don't remember the game too well anymore sadly

ZXValaRevan says (11:50 PM):

Oliver's love lies in beauty, and the mercenaries helped him realize that beauty can be obtained through means other than the subjugation of the common man

Crepe Knight says (11:51 PM):

He would be a patron of the revolution, nevermind

Hm

The Begnion Pegasus knights, didn't some of them join the mercenaries? They're class A bourgeoise, I'm sure

ZXValaRevan says (11:52 PM):

The Pegasus Knights are servants of the deposed Apostle of Begnion. Obviously it would be preferable for them to join the revolution and gain sympathy from the masses, as opposed to continuing to be puppets for the senators conniving Capitalist schemes

ZXValaRevan says (11:53 PM):

They may not share the spirit of the revolution, but they realize it is an invaluable tool for winning back their nation and reverting to a theocratic system"

Even more research has been performed!

"Crepe Knight says (11:55 PM):

Sadly, a fatal flaw in proposing the mercenaries as agents of the communist revolution is that they are a REACTIONARY force; they revert societies to their previous social organizations (a step backwards on the Marxist social evolution scale), even if the installed rulers have different sympathies than their previous leaders did

ZXValaRevan says (11:55 PM):

untruee

ZXValaRevan says (11:56 PM):

As you will notice, the Greil Mercenaries are in fact responsible for the dethroning of various leaders

Crepe Knight says (11:56 PM):

But they replace them with the 'proper' leaders

ZXValaRevan says (11:56 PM):

But they didn't do the replacing

The proper leaders just put themselves in place

The Greil Mercenaries never specifically installed a leader

Crepe Knight says (11:57 PM):

I find this to be a problem of your semantics

ZXValaRevan says (11:57 PM):

They in fact gave up their claim to the rule of Daien

Crepe Knight says (11:57 PM):

The fact is, their actions directly lead to the 'proper' leader

ZXValaRevan says (11:57 PM):

Indeed

Crepe Knight says (11:57 PM):

's assumption of control

ZXValaRevan says (11:57 PM):

Clearly

They are INEPT Communists

Very good at fighting

Not so good at cause and effect

Crepe Knight says (11:58 PM):

I can accept that, as their ideals are extremely communistic

ZXValaRevan says (11:58 PM):

Or perhaps this is all part of their grand scheme, to create a government against which the people can more easily rally?

I am unsure at the moment, further study is most definitely needed

Crepe Knight says (12:00 AM):

It's a society in motion

We need a sequel to determine the effects of their actions

ZXValaRevan says (12:00 AM):

Indeed

Sadly the hero of the revolution, Comrade Ike, left the continent

However

ZXValaRevan says (12:01 AM):

Perhaps he has returned to the motherland to report and formulate a more perfect plan?

Maybe he simply wants to watch his seeds of revolution sprout

ZXValaRevan says (12:02 AM):

This is also clearly alluded to in the ending blurbs for character's such as Nephenee

As it says that she answers the call to defend her homeland on numerous occasions

Implying that there continues to be unrest on a rather large scale

ZXValaRevan says (12:03 AM):

It is also unclear if she intends to literally defend her homeland, and its government, or whether she is defending her homeland by overthrowing her government

Crepe Knight says (12:04 AM):

True; was not her introduction in Radiant Dawn involving fighting off her own repressive government? Or were those bandits, which result from her government's failure?

ZXValaRevan says (12:05 AM):

She defended the realm from an attempt at an uprising

However the uprising was that of a Dictator who wished to maintain the status quo and plunge the nation into further war

Crepe Knight says (12:08 AM):

Ah, he wanted a reversion to the more feudal society where he would recieve more power (as well as the revolutionary leader), because under Elincia power was consolidated into central government, which IS a step forward by the Marxist idea of social evolution

ZXValaRevan says (12:08 AM):

Indeed

ZXValaRevan says (12:09 AM):

The people of Crimea praise the Elincia government multiple times, for being, like her father's, a step forward, and for being a different type of leader than those in the past

a quote includes her

"looking after orphans"

ZXValaRevan says (12:10 AM):

clearly an example of clever redistribution of wealth in a way that would capture the hearts of the people and not cause too much disruption with the upper class

I forsee that the new Fire Emblem game will include several new weapon types

ZXValaRevan says (12:11 AM):

Pitchforks, ranging from Bronze to Silver, and including Killer and Brave varieties will be common

As will other farm implements

Crepe Knight says (12:11 AM):

Sickles

ZXValaRevan says (12:11 AM):

I also suspect that broken architecture will serve as a prominent form of projectile

ZXValaRevan says (12:12 AM):

Perhaps a looting or seizing system will be implented

They could call it

"Liberation"

You would be able to liberate materials from the various businesses you would encounter in the urban maps

In addition

You could capture the means of production

Giving your people's army a more reliable supply of resources

Crepe Knight says (12:13 AM):

Quite so"

Edited December 10, 2009 by ZXValaRevan

[Original Alear]

But you see, Begnion is clearly ruled by the merchant class. It may not be apparent, but a well trained eye can spot the evils of Capitalism seeped into their society. I have a theory that a bourgeois revolution took place at a much earlier date, and this is why the Senate exists and the Apostle does not have complete power. Sure, they claim to be a Theocracy, but that's just a farce, and the apostle a figurehead, put up by the wealthy senators as they control government through their sickening affluence and wealth pilfered from the common people.

I don't necessarily think this is true. (lol) Even though they are a "senate" which today has a bourgeois valence, in Begnion it does not at all represent "senate" as we understand it. Such positions are awarded on the basis of theological ("the sainted") and aristocratic (landholding nobles) merits. It is true that there is a focus on wealth earned by greed and on conspicuous consumption, but that is not uncharacteristic of aristocratic economic systems. Indeed, Capitalism is unique in that "startup" capitalists tend to view abstinence as a virtue, as any consumption takes away from the accumulation of more capital (which leads to more surplus).

However, it is true that the mostly completed project of laguz emancipation indicates that Begnion is moving in a capitalist direction. Marx specifically states that slavery is a product of pre-capitalist economic systems. Capitalism is founded on the idea that workers freely choose to make a contract with the capitalist in which they rent out their labor for a time, and capitalism - an economic unity, singularity and totality - does not abide widespread existence of non-capitalist forms.

A higher class exploiting a lower class is not indicative of capitalism - all it is indicative of is class conflict, which stretches back in history far before the dawn of capitalism.

It is also clear that Queen Elincia intends to continue this trend, as she shows great interest in helping the common person of Crimea.

State attempts to appease the working class are simply a concession that oppression and exploitation is taking place, and an expression of the aristocrat's hope to remain in power on lesser terms because they know they cannot remain in power on the extremely oppressive terms in which they begin their reign.

As long as an unproductive class uses rents, the ownership of land and of dead labor (capital), to make their living, there will be aristocratic exploitation, capitalist exploitation, or some kind of class exploitation. Moreover, although Ike has rejected the system, Crimea still exhibits a moral system in which the surplus is distributed according to ability rather than need - an equal metric is applied to justify an unequal distribution.

ZXValaRevan says (11:56 PM):

But they didn't do the replacing

The proper leaders just put themselves in place

The Greil Mercenaries never specifically installed a leader

Ike specifically recognized Elincia as his client - thus, not only is Elincia taking the throne the leader "putting herself in place" but the "dethroning of various leaders" is also, necessarily, not an action of the mercenaries but of Elincia, acting through the mercenaries.

They in fact gave up their claim to the rule of Daien

Although the laborers are the sole agents in production, the capitalist has claim to all the goods created on account of his purchase of the constant and variable capital involved in the production. Similarly, as Elincia purchased the services of the Greil Mercenaries, their deeds are hers (thus, it was Crimea's choice to give up Daien, not the GM's, as recognized in the beginning of Radiant Dawn.

Leonardo: Come on, you know why. We lost the war...and Crimea won. It's not "our" country anymore. End of story.

Edward: Except that Crimea walked away after winning, leaving those heartless Begnion dogs to rule our country for the last three years! The occupying soldiers march around like they own the place, doing whatever they want, and no one dares to stop them!

Tellius is shown to be firmly in a mindset in which the appropriation of labor by an exploitative class - whether it be aristocratic or capitalist - is implicitly justified.

Crepe Knight says (11:58 PM):

I can accept that, as their ideals are extremely communistic

I would agree with this, in that services are at times rendered to people regardless of the reward involved - fighting for the sake of others is worthy of doing in and of itself, regardless of reward. Thus, there is no alienation within the GMs from the work that they do - it is not done in order to subsist, but for what it achieves in and of itself.

However, as shown above, their most significant and protracted employments have been appropriated by others, and this leaves in question whether their own application of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is breeding this sentiment in others.

ZXValaRevan says (12:09 AM):

The people of Crimea praise the Elincia government multiple times, for being, like her father's, a step forward, and for being a different type of leader than those in the past

a quote includes her

"looking after orphans"

In a communist society, such actions would not be "praiseworthy" but rather a very obvious and necessary distribution of the surplus. The fact that this is seen as an exceptional virtue shows that the people of Crimea are also stuck in a mindset in which the orphans do not strictly demand help from those who can give it (to the point where it is not virtuous to do what is required of you).

Moreover, the sustaining of an Industrial Reserve Army is a hallmark of capitalism. Specifically, as capitalism pushes out domestic industry and non-industrial agriculture, non-capitalist sectors of employment decrease. Similarly, the floating form and the "lowest sediment" of the surplus population (which includes orphans) come to make up almost all of the Industrial Reserve Army, while the stagnant population and the non-industrial agricultural population (no shorter term is given in Capital that I know of) decrease. Thus the sustenance of the "lowest sediments" and the floating form (those unemployed as the result of layoffs in industrial sectors, still seeking work) becomes more vital for capitalism so that there is an excess of workers ready to be exploited when new sectors of production open.

LoL.

Edited December 11, 2009 by SeverIan

[Victor Fang]

lot of Communism in this thread.

[Original Alear]

lot of Communism in this thread.

Whoops.

EDIT-For the record, the only ideology I seriously ascribe to is the Church of the Final Atonement.

Edited December 11, 2009 by SeverIan

[Victor Fang]

mkay... just checking, I'll need some people to help overthrow the ruling classes after all.

[Original Alear]

mkay... just checking, I'll need some people to help overthrow the ruling classes after all.

I would be happy to crucify them on a tree of death for you.

However, my ultimate goal is for every human being (including myself) to be crucified on a tree-spaceship called the tree of pain. So we may have to agree to disagree on some points about the ultimate goal of any sort of joint revolution.

[Defeatist Elitist]

But you see, Begnion is clearly ruled by the merchant class. It may not be apparent, but a well trained eye can spot the evils of Capitalism seeped into their society. I have a theory that a bourgeois revolution took place at a much earlier date, and this is why the Senate exists and the Apostle does not have complete power. Sure, they claim to be a Theocracy, but that's just a farce, and the apostle a figurehead, put up by the wealthy senators as they control government through their sickening affluence and wealth pilfered from the common people.

I don't necessarily think this is true. (lol) Even though they are a "senate" which today has a bourgeois valence, in Begnion it does not at all represent "senate" as we understand it. Such positions are awarded on the basis of theological ("the sainted") and aristocratic (landholding nobles) merits. It is true that there is a focus on wealth earned by greed and on conspicuous consumption, but that is not uncharacteristic of aristocratic economic systems. Indeed, Capitalism is unique in that "startup" capitalists tend to view abstinence as a virtue, as any consumption takes away from the accumulation of more capital (which leads to more surplus).

However, it is true that the mostly completed project of laguz emancipation indicates that Begnion is moving in a capitalist direction. Marx specifically states that slavery is a product of pre-capitalist economic systems. Capitalism is founded on the idea that workers freely choose to make a contract with the capitalist in which they rent out their labor for a time, and capitalism - an economic unity, singularity and totality - does not abide widespread existence of non-capitalist forms.

A higher class exploiting a lower class is not indicative of capitalism - all it is indicative of is class conflict, which stretches back in history far before the dawn of capitalism.

It is also clear that Queen Elincia intends to continue this trend, as she shows great interest in helping the common person of Crimea.

State attempts to appease the working class are simply a concession that oppression and exploitation is taking place, and an expression of the aristocrat's hope to remain in power on lesser terms because they know they cannot remain in power on the extremely oppressive terms in which they begin their reign.

As long as an unproductive class uses rents, the ownership of land and of dead labor (capital), to make their living, there will be aristocratic exploitation, capitalist exploitation, or some kind of class exploitation. Moreover, although Ike has rejected the system, Crimea still exhibits a moral system in which the surplus is distributed according to ability rather than need - an equal metric is applied to justify an unequal distribution.

ZXValaRevan says (11:56 PM):

But they didn't do the replacing

The proper leaders just put themselves in place

The Greil Mercenaries never specifically installed a leader

Ike specifically recognized Elincia as his client - thus, not only is Elincia taking the throne the leader "putting herself in place" but the "dethroning of various leaders" is also, necessarily, not an action of the mercenaries but of Elincia, acting through the mercenaries.

They in fact gave up their claim to the rule of Daien

Although the laborers are the sole agents in production, the capitalist has claim to all the goods created on account of his purchase of the constant and variable capital involved in the production. Similarly, as Elincia purchased the services of the Greil Mercenaries, their deeds are hers (thus, it was Crimea's choice to give up Daien, not the GM's, as recognized in the beginning of Radiant Dawn.

Leonardo: Come on, you know why. We lost the war...and Crimea won. It's not "our" country anymore. End of story.

Edward: Except that Crimea walked away after winning, leaving those heartless Begnion dogs to rule our country for the last three years! The occupying soldiers march around like they own the place, doing whatever they want, and no one dares to stop them!

Tellius is shown to be firmly in a mindset in which the appropriation of labor by an exploitative class - whether it be aristocratic or capitalist - is implicitly justified.

Crepe Knight says (11:58 PM):

I can accept that, as their ideals are extremely communistic

I would agree with this, in that services are at times rendered to people regardless of the reward involved - fighting for the sake of others is worthy of doing in and of itself, regardless of reward. Thus, there is no alienation within the GMs from the work that they do - it is not done in order to subsist, but for what it achieves in and of itself.

However, as shown above, their most significant and protracted employments have been appropriated by others, and this leaves in question whether their own application of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is breeding this sentiment in others.

ZXValaRevan says (12:09 AM):

The people of Crimea praise the Elincia government multiple times, for being, like her father's, a step forward, and for being a different type of leader than those in the past

a quote includes her

"looking after orphans"

In a communist society, such actions would not be "praiseworthy" but rather a very obvious and necessary distribution of the surplus. The fact that this is seen as an exceptional virtue shows that the people of Crimea are also stuck in a mindset in which the orphans do not strictly demand help from those who can give it (to the point where it is not virtuous to do what is required of you).

Moreover, the sustaining of an Industrial Reserve Army is a hallmark of capitalism. Specifically, as capitalism pushes out domestic industry and non-industrial agriculture, non-capitalist sectors of employment decrease. Similarly, the floating form and the "lowest sediment" of the surplus population (which includes orphans) come to make up almost all of the Industrial Reserve Army, while the stagnant population and the non-industrial agricultural population (no shorter term is given in Capital that I know of) decrease. Thus the sustenance of the "lowest sediments" and the floating form (those unemployed as the result of layoffs in industrial sectors, still seeking work) becomes more vital for capitalism so that there is an excess of workers ready to be exploited when new sectors of production open.

LoL.

Salient points my friend, but you should realize that I am not implying that Communism is upon the continent, I am implying that the continent is changing and unbalanced, and ripe for revolution, and the cause of this change is the Greil Mercenaries, who are clearly Communist in nature. Whether the revolution will be Communist in nature, I do not know.

[Original Alear]

Whether the revolution will be Communist in nature, I do not know.

Sooner or later, the inescapable logic of Marx shows us that the natural historical progression leads to a proletariat revolution. But whether that occurs in this generation of Tellius' history is indeed in question.