Sigurd VS Ike

[Rewjeo]

Actually, Transfer Ike vs. Sigurd might be interesting...

[Candlejack]

Pretty much every lord EVER has the same "I'M A NOBLE" personality.

Except Hector and FE9 Ike.

Is that supposed to be a good thing?

Nearly every lord in FE has the same exact personality. No differences except hair color, name, and weapon.

It isn't good when you have that little variety.

[CT075]

Actually, Transfer Ike vs. Sigurd might be interesting...

Haar > Sigurd

(T)Ike > Haar

So, by the transitive property:

(T)Ike > Sigurd

[Paperblade]

Actually, Transfer Ike vs. Sigurd might be interesting...

Haar > Sigurd

(T)Ike > Haar

So, by the transitive property:

(T)Ike > Sigurd

Transfers Ike doesn't gain anything that makes him comparable to Sigurd. He gets further overkill offense (he now one rounds a few bosses, but Sigurd already wins offense with Silver anyway, and still has potential for Hero if you really wanna go crazy, but it's never assumed on him because he one rounds a vast majority of stuff anyway, so it's "more efficient" to give Hero to a weaker unit that'll kill the tough stuff with that Hero while also letting them get the stuff that Sigurd is already getting...). Ike, however, suffers from the fact that he only has 7 move, whereas you have units that have 9 move flying or 9 move and have reduced costs on Thicket/Gaps (sup Laguz). Meanwhile, Sigurd beats everyone else in mobility, as well as offense and durability (and Ike has the potential, however slight it is, to be instagibbed by Thunder Sages, which is ever so slightly worse than Sigurd's Godless Killing Machine).

Also, what would Haar > Sigurd anyway? Haar's main perk is lolflying in a bunch of chapters where lolflying is awesome and no one else has it. His combat isn't really notable better than High tier units like Titania/Gatrie/etc., and his Avoid/Res are actually a bit worse. Haar's main advantage is that he's basically a unit like Gatrie if Gatrie had traded half his Speed growth in for angel wings and free Boots. So Sigurd has better combat parameters relative to his team, while retaining a mobility lead. wtfhax.

I guess (T)Ike solidifies his doubling so that if he gets Spd screwed he doesn't lose offense to loltitania or lolmia or lollaguz or the dozens of other asshats. Except wait, Sigurd has 9AS at base level, and only needs 13AS to double the fastest non-healer generic, which doesn't show up for another 4 chapters. And keep in mind these are Mages, so he can use Slim and still one round them with +2 Str from base (and he has a 50% growth).

[IkefanCail]

Ike loses because of Sigurd's Hp and Silver blade that is disproportionately powerful.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Ike loses because of Sigurd's Hp and Silver blade that is disproportionately powerful.

What would be more interesting is who wins proportionally to their fellow units. Of course Sigurd might be better overall, but is that still the case when you correct for "I've got a 30 might weapon that gives +40 to my stats, as well as major holy blood that shoots my growths through the roof"? Correcting for the utter brokenness of FE4 holy blood and holy weapons, Ike wins easily (at least FE10 Ike would). How about FE9 Ike vs. Sigurd, no Holy blood growths or holy weapons, taken at their averages?

[Candlejack]

What about Sigurd Vs. Seth?

[Rewjeo]

Do people all become never dieing ORKO machines towards the end of G1 in FE4? If they don't, then Sigurd still wins. They're both the best early on, but then Sigurd's still noticeably better than his team later, while Seth might be slightly better, but not significantly at all.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Um, does Sigurd start as promoted or unpromoted (and if unpromoted, what are his promotion bonuses)? It's for a thought experiment, but I honestly can't seem to find it on the FE4 page.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Mousefire]

Um, does Sigurd start as promoted or unpromoted (and if unpromoted, what are his promotion bonuses)? It's for a thought experiment, but I honestly can't seem to find it on the FE4 page.

He's a prepromote, but fe4 uses a different level system, so he isn't hurt by it.

[Fayt Zelpher]

He's a prepromote, but fe4 uses a different level system, so he isn't hurt by it.

Could you explain? I want to compare Sigurd's Max level averages without any holy blood bonuses to Ike's max level averages. Then I'll come up with some way to correct for broken holy weapons so I can properly compare the two lords.

[Mousefire]

Could you explain? I want to compare Sigurd's Max level averages without any holy blood bonuses to Ike's max level averages. Then I'll come up with some way to correct for broken holy weapons so I can properly compare the two lords.

He gets 25 level ups, and holy blood bonuses totally count.

[Fayt Zelpher]

He gets 25 level ups, and holy blood bonuses totally count.

I see. And no, they shouldn't count since I've got to map a system with broken weapons and stats to one where there is a lot more character balance. It's widely accepted the FE4 characters are broken, and I've got to find some way to correct for that. In any case, I've still got to decide a good way to Nerf Tifling so it balances to FE9 Ragnell. Probably 20 might with 1/4 of the stat bonuses... That should work. Skill +2, Speed +3, Res +5 on a 20 might weapon seems fair against Ike's Ragnell.

[Mousefire]

I see. And no, they shouldn't count since I've got to map a system with broken weapons and stats to one where there is a lot more character balance. It's widely accepted the FE4 characters are broken, and I've got to find some way to correct for that. In any case, I've still got to decide a good way to Nerf Tifling so it balances to FE9 Ragnell. Probably 20 might with 1/4 of the stat bonuses... That should work. Skill +2, Speed +3, Res +5 on a 20 might weapon seems fair against Ike's Ragnell.

Count growth rate bonuses. It's still fair. Does the Tyrfing still have 30 epic might?

Edited January 31, 2010 by mousefire

[Fayt Zelpher]

Count growth rate bonuses. It's still fair. Does the Tyrfing still have 30 epic might?

I nerfed Tilfling to 20 Mt. I've looked through his stats and decided that his HGB is okay as well.

Here's his L30 Averages (without HGB)

30/ 52.5/ 21.5/ 1.25/ 18.5/ 19.5/ 12/ 19/ 4.25

And with HGB:

30/ 62.5/ 26.5/ 1.25/ 23.5+2/ 19.5+3/ 17/ 19/ 4.25+5

Ike @ 20/20, FE9:

20-20/ 51.5/ 26/ 10.6/ 27/ 28/ 19.3/ 23.2+5/ 17.2

I'm going to assume FE9 mechanics, no skills or supports as well Ike can't be criticaled, and I'll assume that Tilfing negates Criticals as well.

So Ike: 44 Mt / 153.3 Hit / 75.3 Avo

Sigurd: 41.5 Mt / 148 Hit / 68 Avo

Ike does 25 damage, 85.3% hit.

Sigurd does 13.3 damage, 72.7% hit.

So, it's very even at this point, though Ike has a small edge. Ike 3HKO's Sigurd, Sigurd is 4HKOing. Throw in the full 30 Mt Tifling and he's just barely 2HKOing. I'll assume it's also a 3HKO though. However, even if he does 2HKO, Ike doubles and can 2RKO anyway... Advantage, Ike.

Next, I'll do Sigurd with his full might and Tilfing bonuses v. FE10 Ike averages.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Fayt Zelpher]

I wanted to take this to another post since I don't want to get too many calculations in that post...

Anyway, FE10 Ike, at his averages.

65/ 37/ 8.8/ 40/ 34.8/ 22.4/ 32+5/ 15.2

Sigurd at his averages, with full Tifling bonuses.

62.5/ 26.5/ 1.25/ 23.5+10/19.5+10/17/ 19/ 4.25+20

Given the vast disparity in the defenses, Ike will 2HKO and double, Sigurd will probably be stuck with a 4HKO. There's no contest. Plus, Ike has more hit and avoid. I'm not even going to go through the full battle parameters unless someone really wants to see them.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Just call me AL]

@Randomly Predictable: I think I out to let you know, unless if someone has the critical skill (or if that someone either has got 50+ kills with a weapon, has a killer bow, or is named Eltoshen/Alex and thus has Mistoltin), or has low health and the wrath skill. no one is gonna be getting criticals in FE4. (Not that it would matter 90% of the time.) Tyrfing doesn't give Nihil to Sigurd, so no, it doesn't negate criticals. Tyrfing instead gives a skill called Prayer, which only activates once, and increases his evasiveness by [(11 - HP)10] upon reaching near death (read: having less than or equal to 10 HP).

And before you ask "What's the critical rate if FE4's characters need either the critical skill, 50+ kills with any weapon, a killer bow, or Mistoltin?" FE4's critical rate is Critical%=Skill + (kills with a weapon - 50, if the number of kills on said weapon is 51 or above).

Edited January 31, 2010 by LittleAl

[Fayt Zelpher]

@Randomly Predictable: I think I out to let you know, unless if someone has the critical skill (or if that someone either has got 50+ kills with a weapon, has a killer bow, or is named Eltoshen/Alex and thus has Mistoltin), or has low health and the wrath skill. no one is gonna be getting criticals in FE4. (Not that it would matter 90% of the time.) Tyrfing doesn't give Nihil to Sigurd, so no, it doesn't negate criticals. Tyrfing instead gives a skill called Prayer, which only activates once, and increases his evasiveness by [(11 - HP)10] upon reaching near death (read: >10 HP).

That's why I assumed FE9 mechanics and no criticals for either side. I'm not going to pretend I understand FE4 mechanics. I was merely doing a thought experiment with the two lords and making an attempt to adjust for the different game mechanics. I don't know who would win if we assumed FE4 mechanics as I have no knowledge of that game.

And I think that you meant < 10 HP as well.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Just call me AL]

That's why I assumed FE9 mechanics and no criticals for either side. I'm not going to pretend I understand FE4 mechanics. I was merely doing a thought experiment with the two lords and making an attempt to adjust for the different game mechanics. I don't know who would win if we assumed FE4 mechanics as I have no knowledge of that game.

Okay, now I know.

And I think that you meant 10 HP < as well.

Thanks for pointing out an error here. Edited January 31, 2010 by LittleAl

[CT075]

Comparing FE10 Ike and Sigurd by averages is a reeeeaaaaally lopsided system due to FE10's WTF caps compared to the rest of the series' classes (read: 30-40 vs. 25-30). So of course Ike would win in a direct comparison. The real way to compare them is to compare their performances to their respective teams. Like, Ike does only slightly better than the GMs in Part 3, and then is godmode throughout part 4. Then 4-E comes along and he's only average again. Maybe a bit better. Meanwhile, Sigurd ORKOs everything in sight for the first 2 chapters with that Silver Sword he gets halfway through the Prologue (He almost ORKOs everything with Steel, too- but there are some enemies that he leaves with single digit HP.). Then chapter 3 comes and he's still god, although Cuan and Lex begin to catch up. Cuan is actually better than Sigurd for about 15 seconds of Chapter 3 (read: Gaebolg). Lex also has the Hero Hax and is easily the most durable unit on your team. Then, in chapter 5, Sigurd spends all his money to repair his Tyrfing, and, once again, he's easily the best unit on the team. So basically the comparison is:

Above Average Unit to WTFHAX unit to Above Average

vs.

Godmode to Godmode to WTFHAX godmode.

Oh, and Sigurd is on a mount, too~

[Mousefire]

Hey RP, I just realized something. either Sigurd needs 10 more levels, or Ike needs 10 less levels for it to be truly fair

Edited January 31, 2010 by mousefire

[Fayt Zelpher]

Hey RP, I just realized something. either Sigurd needs 10 more levels, or Ike needs 10 less levels for it to be truly fair

FE10 Ike would still win, but it'd be a lot closer. FE9 Ike would probably lose even after the modifications I made.

[CT075]

FE10 Ike would still win, but it'd be a lot closer. FE9 Ike would probably lose even after the modifications I made.

Comparing FE10 Ike and Sigurd by averages is a reeeeaaaaally lopsided system due to FE10's WTF caps compared to the rest of the series' classes (read: 30-40 vs. 25-30). So of course Ike would win in a direct comparison. The real way to compare them is to compare their performances to their respective teams. Like, Ike does only slightly better than the GMs in Part 3, and then is godmode throughout part 4. Then 4-E comes along and he's only average again. Maybe a bit better. Meanwhile, Sigurd ORKOs everything in sight for the first 2 chapters with that Silver Sword he gets halfway through the Prologue (He almost ORKOs everything with Steel, too- but there are some enemies that he leaves with single digit HP.). Then chapter 3 comes and he's still god, although Cuan and Lex begin to catch up. Cuan is actually better than Sigurd for about 15 seconds of Chapter 3 (read: Gaebolg). Lex also has the Hero Hax and is easily the most durable unit on your team. Then, in chapter 5, Sigurd spends all his money to repair his Tyrfing, and, once again, he's easily the best unit on the team.

tl;dr: Above Average to WTFHAX to Above Average (Ike)

vs.

Godmode to Godmode to WTFHAX godmode on a horse~ (Sigurd)

Oh, and Sigurd is on a mount, too~

Although, I voted Ike because Ike didn't get killed by a psycho.

[Narga_Rocks]

Although, I voted Ike because Ike didn't get killed by a psycho.

I don't get how he could lose if he had Tyrfing. He'd have above 20 res vs. Alvis and his 70 mt. 50 damage, but I'm sure Sigurd would have above 50 hp. But Sigurd has 25 str and a 30 mt weapon. So 55 mt against Alvis' 40 def. Well, I guess he only does 30 damage with a double (and he would double, since Alvis' tome weighs 15 and Sigurd has +10 -7 spd with Tyrfing, so he easily doubles) and Alvis 2HKOs Sigurd. Still, Alvis wasn't emperor yet, so who knows what his hp and def stats are. If Sigurd can 3HKO then Sigurd should win. Alvis attacked first and was adjacent to Sigurd, Sigurd lays in 2 hits, then he attacks Alvis after and Alvis dies. I suppose he had Continue before he became emperor, so maybe he continued? I'm just saying he can't possibly OHKO Sigurd if Sigurd has Tyrfing.

Maybe Sig was unequipped, I suppose. Then it's a one-hit. I guess he wouldn't have been holding his sword. Still, with magic there should be a chant. Unless his arms were being held he should be able to draw his sword. They came right off the battlefield, so even if it was sheathed he can still pull it out before a dude can finish casting a spell.

I bet the two guys holding his arms died from the Falaflame.

[CT075]

I don't get how he could lose if he had Tyrfing. He'd have above 20 res vs. Alvis and his 70 mt. 50 damage, but I'm sure Sigurd would have above 50 hp. But Sigurd has 25 str and a 30 mt weapon. So 55 mt against Alvis' 40 def. Well, I guess he only does 30 damage with a double (and he would double, since Alvis' tome weighs 15 and Sigurd has +10 -7 spd with Tyrfing, so he easily doubles) and Alvis 2HKOs Sigurd. Still, Alvis wasn't emperor yet, so who knows what his hp and def stats are. If Sigurd can 3HKO then Sigurd should win. Alvis attacked first and was adjacent to Sigurd, Sigurd lays in 2 hits, then he attacks Alvis after and Alvis dies. I suppose he had Continue before he became emperor, so maybe he continued? I'm just saying he can't possibly OHKO Sigurd if Sigurd has Tyrfing.

Maybe Sig was unequipped, I suppose. Then it's a one-hit. I guess he wouldn't have been holding his sword. Still, with magic there should be a chant. Unless his arms were being held he should be able to draw his sword. They came right off the battlefield, so even if it was sheathed he can still pull it out before a dude can finish casting a spell.

I bet the two guys holding his arms died from the Falaflame.

XD

It was supposed to be a congratulations ceremony, so of course his sword is sheathed. Then Alvis killed him.