Proposed FE 6 HM tier list.

[grandjackal]

I am aware that he fails against those units. Thankfully, he doesn't need to attack them, and if he does, at least he's not eating a counter. Shielding him from 5 Mov enemies isn't hard. Even Lugh can do it while building that support. Lugh x Ray is a 20/+3 support. This will hit a C...during the middle of the chapter in question or even before it, giving Ray +5 Hit and +5 Evd, which is w1n for him and pushes his Hit on everything about 50 to abuse the double-RN system.

Ooookaaayyy, this helps him very little.

Also, being a magic archer is not helping your point.

40% of all battles need to end in a win for you to get a perfect score in Combat. If Lugh doubles an enemy and then Ray kills it, that's a 50%, which is a 10% profit. Ray isn't fighting these enemies on his own. One-rounding monsters like Rutger, Dieck, Lance, and Alan more than make up for any shortcomings on the part of units like Ray. It is a point against him before promotion, but a minor one, like Funds.

And it came out of Lou's pocket, because now he doesn't have a win on his own record.

Speaking of which, how often is Ray able to do this for other people? The only way he's getting wins is through someone chewing up his kills for him, which is destroying their combat record just to pad his. This is uhhhhh backwards.

Let's not also forget that in the next chapter, the slowest enemy reduces his hit to 67 displayed, and this enemy is the common threat of cavaliers. On top of this being a ballistae map that eats him alive with various units that can just wreck him even from range, the fact he has worse than Geese accuracy is further not helping because he could still fail to kill something that's been chewed up for him more often than just about anyone else. This is also helping in ruin his use of the EXP rank, which is about the only good thing about him. I can't get kill exp if I missed the target, after all.

He's bad for the combat rank. Hell, 20/1 in Ilia, he has 25 might with Flux and Pegasi have 34 HP and 9 Res. Even doubling the steel pegs (he has barely enough speed to double them, even screwed one point and he 3RKOs), he's still 2RKOing. I'm going to repeat that, he's 2RKOing pegasus knights, 3RKOing if they got javelins or some such.

If this list assumes Sacae half the time, don't EVEN get me started!

This start is nowhere near as bad with C Lugh being applied in the earlier portion of the chapter and Ray not being at his base level. Why isn't Ray gaining two levels hitting the crappy axe user reinforcements in the previous chapter and building his 14 turn C with Lugh? That +5 Hit pushes everything about 50 for him and is much more than +5 due to the double RN system.

Just how long is it taking you to beat chapter 12? It certainly doesn't take me 14 turns after I recruited Ray, which by the time I reach him might accidentally push me past the Gaiden deadline.

Even with the Chad support early on, Lugh shouldn't be getting attacked and Chad doesn't need it when he's ass-raping the axe users regardless. After the Western Isles (and even during it in many cases), he's at 20/0 and thus worthless in terms of Experience and he's often off doing other things. Later on, he's bottom tier in terms of offense and durability. Ray isn't. In the long-run, Lugh wants Ray more.

Not every map is chapter 5 early on, Chad, Lou and Ellen supporting eachother to boost their crit and avoid rates further is only helping them perform that much better early on. It's certainly a lot better than Ray showing up to suck the good out of the team. I think Lou would rather Chad supported him then eventually disappeared than take Ray up.

You obtain a Silver Card in the same chapter you can purchase that tome. I don't think Funds is a big deal when spending some cash on Ray creates an invincible unit that does massive damage in one hit to whatever he hits.

IF he hits, and I think you're ignoring just how expensive it is. It's 3000 just normally, 1500 even after the silver card is absolutely bonkers. For that price, I could have 2 killer edges, or 2 Killer lances, 3 Killer axes. I could buy nearly 3 Aircaliburs with that. A Physic staff is only 385 more expensive so it's close and far more useful. Could have got me 3 Mend staffs which help the team overall. All these could go to highly better units, but you'd rather one guy with shaky accuracy use it and you'd risk his life to put to use 1 20 use spellbook? I thought I hyped Nosferatanking...

I also highly question invincible later, especially since things like Wyvern Lords with silver and Heroes exist.

He's invincible after promotion and supports Lugh quickly and easily for decent bonuses.

Lou doesn't want Ray because the team doesn't want Ray, a better team can be made that doesn't involve Ray. His "invincibility" status is also as questionable as his accuracy, as it goes hand in hand, not to mention it rips gold out your ass like a proctology exam gone horribly wrong.

He's not above Shin and Fir. There are no orders within the tiers. I stated this. Please read.

Fine, shouldn't be in the same tier then, how's that sound?

Also, when sense does that make? Even those of close to equal performance, you can still measure out one being greater than the other.

[Candlejack]

Grandjackal found an FE6 ranked thread?

This should be fun.

[CATS]

I think we should worry about making sure everyone is in the right tier, and then try to adjust exact positionings within tiers.

At the moment I am mostly satisfied with the 3 highest tiers, though I do notice Saul still a tier below Ellen.

Another issue which comes to my mind is Marcus and Klein. I do feel like Marcus is in the right tier, since I definitely think he's high tier on an efficiency run, and he's less useful on Rankings than efficiency since Exp rank doesn't let him rape as much. However I question whether or not Klein belongs in this tier with Marcus.

When Marcus first joins he is utterly invaluable. His presence makes a huge, huge difference. Without him it is almost completely impossible to fulfill the Tactics requirement for the first chapter, indeed when testing Marcus's usefulness here in the past, I found myself hard-pressed to finish in even double the number of turns required for 5 stars on this chapter without Marcus. And that's just the first chapter. He saves you an assload of turns while being used only to weaken instead of kill, so that he contributes to combat a whole lot (Multiple 3-4RKO's become 2RKO's with Marcus in play) while only slightly affecting your Exp gains for the chapter. And he contributes very positively to your overall Exp rank; since he saves you so many turns, those turns can later be spent in the Arena increasing Exp and Funds while also building supports, or at the very least giving you alot more room to go slowly in general and ensure that you can maximize Exp gains, support turns, etc.

By the time Klein joins, your team has improved massively, and a strong pre-promote no longer makes nearly as big of a splash. Now alot of your units are good at 2RKO'ing on their own, without assistance from a Jeigan-like figure, and since Klein is pre-promoted it is undesirable to let him one-round things due to Exp rank. He's not even useful as a durable meatshield that weakens enemies or something, since he has no melee counter, letting him take attacks rapes Combat. No matter how good his stats are, due to his class, his status as a pre-promote, and the extent to which the team's abilities have developed by the time he joins, he can't possibly contribute even nearly as much as Marcus does during the very early game.

imo Klein down to Lower Mid.

[Inui]

20/1 Ray: 14.2 Spd, 40%

20/1 Lilina: 13.6 Spd, 35%

lol

Lilina: C Roy/B Gonzales; 27.6 HP, 7.9 Def, 17.6 Res, 47.7 Evd

Ray: A Lugh; 30.4 HP, 9.2 Def, 15.8 Res, 48.6 Evd, NOSFERATU

3 HP, 1 Def, 1 Evd, Nosferatu h4x > 2 Res.

This only gets worse and worse as time goes on. Ray's growths in HP, Spd, and Def exceed hers. Ray can actually fight on the enemy phase and gain a level lead. So later when you start Ilia/Sacae it's like 20/5 Ray vs 20/3 Lilina and it just gets bigger.

20/3 Lilina vs 20/5 Ray in Sacae

Lilina: C Roy/B Gonzales; 28.5 HP, 8.1 Def, 18.3 Res, 50.1 Evd, 14.3 Atk Spd

Ray: A Lugh; 32.6 HP, 9.8 Def, 17.2 Res, 54.4 Evd, 14.8 Atk Spd, NOSFERATU

Both are doubled by Nomads.

The difference? Ray eats the hits without caring. 18 Atk Nomads do 8x2 if they hit, and Ray does more than that in his one hit, and Lugh giving him +15 Hit means he's not missing. Lilina eats 10x2 and has trouble dodging (the enemies will have more 50 displayed Hit on her). A Nomad Trooper with a Steel Sword...will one-round her. Pathetic.

As you progress further in the game, Ray's leads get bigger and bigger, and he's eventually extremely good (if he's not already). Lilina is always horrendous.

Gonzales above Fir please.

Will provide reasoning if challenged.

No order within tiers at this time. Unless you are saying Gonzales is a tier better?

Ooookaaayyy, this helps him very little.

Wrong. +5 Hit (I'm assuming you're talking about the support) is more like +10 Hit in this case due to the double RN system, meaning he's not missing all the time.

Also, being a magic archer is not helping your point.

Except he's not an archer. He deals more damage than one and can counter up close.

And it came out of Lou's pocket, because now he doesn't have a win on his own record.

Wins a unit's record matter...why? It didn't come out of anyone's pocket. The level 15 unit is letting the level 12 unit get the kill so they gain more EXP for the Experience rank and it ends up balancing the team out in terms of levels.

Speaking of which, how often is Ray able to do this for other people? The only way he's getting wins is through someone chewing up his kills for him, which is destroying their combat record just to pad his. This is uhhhhh backwards.

His one hit reduces them to low enough HP for anyone to kill them too. He can do it for others. It just makes absolutely no sense given Ray is at a lower level. And hurting someone else's personal combat record doesn't matter. Win 40% of all battles to get a perfect score in Combat. Simple enough.

Let's not also forget that in the next chapter, the slowest enemy reduces his hit to 67 displayed, and this enemy is the common threat of cavaliers. On top of this being a ballistae map that eats him alive with various units that can just wreck him even from range, the fact he has worse than Geese accuracy is further not helping because he could still fail to kill something that's been chewed up for him more often than just about anyone else. This is also helping in ruin his use of the EXP rank, which is about the only good thing about him. I can't get kill exp if I missed the target, after all.

Did you like...not level him up or support him at all?

He's bad for the combat rank. Hell, 20/1 in Ilia, he has 25 might with Flux and Pegasi have 34 HP and 9 Res. Even doubling the steel pegs (he has barely enough speed to double them, even screwed one point and he 3RKOs), he's still 2RKOing. I'm going to repeat that, he's 2RKOing pegasus knights, 3RKOing if they got javelins or some such.

There is no way he is only 20/1 when you enter Ilia. He has 25 Atk with Flux...without any supports.

If this list assumes Sacae half the time, don't EVEN get me started!

He is better in Sacae than in Ilia.

Just how long is it taking you to beat chapter 12? It certainly doesn't take me 14 turns after I recruited Ray, which by the time I reach him might accidentally push me past the Gaiden deadline.

You have like 21 turns per chapter in order to score an A in Tactics. You can eat up the maximum time (24 turns) to build the support. What's the problem here when you finish most in under that to easily make up for it?

Not every map is chapter 5 early on, Chad, Lou and Ellen supporting each other to boost their crit and avoid rates further is only helping them perform that much better early on. It's certainly a lot better than Ray showing up to suck the good out of the team. I think Lou would rather Chad supported him then eventually disappeared than take Ray up.

Ellen should never get attacked. Ever. Lugh should almost never be attacked, and he's almost never attacked enough for the small Evd bonus to matter. Chad does not need the bonuses to perform well. Chad is often doing his own thing with thieving and eventually disapoofs. Well, not just eventually. Rather early. Ray doesn't do that and retains usefulness forever. Ray will give Lugh bonuses significantly longer than Chad will, and during a period of time when Lugh can take attacks on the enemy phase, so the Evd matters.

IF he hits, and I think you're ignoring just how expensive it is. It's 3000 just normally, 1500 even after the silver card is absolutely bonkers. For that price, I could have 2 killer edges, or 2 Killer lances, 3 Killer axes. I could buy nearly 3 Aircaliburs with that. A Physic staff is only 385 more expensive so it's close and far more useful. Could have got me 3 Mend staffs which help the team overall. All these could go to highly better units, but you'd rather one guy with shaky accuracy use it and you'd risk his life to put to use 1 20 use spellbook? I thought I hyped Nosferatanking...

I also highly question invincible later, especially since things like Wyvern Lords with silver and Heroes exist.

I understand his fault in Funds. Thankfully, the Silver Card exists, making it the lolrank.

Ray has 124.1 Hit with Nosferatu. He has 74.1 displayed Hit (True Hit is obviously more) on some of the highest Evd enemies. The Sacaen Nomads. He can eat two hits, whiff, eat another hit, and then hit a nomad, and he's almost at full HP after that. He's invincible.

Silver Lance Wyvern Lords do not one-shot him. They have 39-40 Atk, and he has ~35 HP and 10 Def by the time they exist. Ray will pretty much have 100 Hit on them, so whatever even if they hit. He just gets it all back by doing ~30 damage to them.

Lou doesn't want Ray because the team doesn't want Ray, a better team can be made that doesn't involve Ray. His "invincibility" status is also as questionable as his accuracy, as it goes hand in hand, not to mention it rips gold out your ass like a proctology exam gone horribly wrong.

Of course, if you use everyone going by the tier list starting from top to bottom, Ray can get overlooked and not be used, but you're not doing that the whole time. Funds rank doesn't matter. If spending the cash gives you an invincible unit, it's worth it, and his accuracy is fine thanks to Lugh (and other supports would help it even more).

Fine, shouldn't be in the same tier then, how's that sound?

Also, when sense does that make? Even those of close to equal performance, you can still measure out one being greater than the other.

I'm not doing that right now.

[Inui]

I agree with CATS.

[CATS]

Why is Lugh weakening an enemy for Ray considered to hurt Lugh's combat record? If Lugh is failing to one-round an enemy, then he is failing to one-round, regardless of who finishes the kill after he's failed to one-round. I don't see what Ray has to do with it, other than the fact that Ray is a better choice than most other units for finishing the kill due to Exp rank.

[Salad Utensil]

There should not be a tier gap between Thany and Tate IMO. Thany is your only flier for about 1/3 of the game. Her role in reducing your turncount in chapters that require fliers utility is invaluable:

Chapter 2: She can fly Roy across the mountains to the castle and you can free up Alan, Marcus and Lance to make a break for the boss.

Chapter 3: She can either save turns ferrying Roy to the throne or Lot to the armor knights and hammering them to death or Lugh to the rest of your team

Chapter 4: Not very useful here with the nomad, but can provide some rescuing support freeing up characters you actually might want to fight with

Chapter 5: Can help any PC fly over the mountains saving a many number of turns.

Chapter 6: Nothing than any other mount can do, but makes a decent filler unit to save turns making rescue chains for Roy to talk to Cath and Chad to get all the treasure ASAP

Chapter 7: High deployment might as well bring her, rescuing makes recruiting Treck much easier so he doesn't die the turn after he arrives.

Chapter 8: Probably not very useful, but might be worth bring as mounts are very useful this chapter and the deployment number is decent

Chapter 8X: saves a ridiculous number of turns allowing you to fly your best units over the lava and kill the boss faster since he will otherwise be a pain anyway.

Chapter 9: The south bridge is cramped and Thany can ferry units across the water to the central island saving turns

Chapter 10: probably no reason to bring her...

Chapter 11: Tate is recruited

Thany can also support Lot and Dieck for what its worth as they are thier fastest viable supports. DieckXClarine is just ridiculously slow and he might as well support Thany and Lot for Cs or Bs. Lot is actually a viable character throughout the game I think, but that is a different story for later.

Thany shaves a ridiculous amount of turns. This translates to helping funds, tactics, and exp ranks. The turns that Thany can save you can be spent in the arena so your promoted characters and other fighters can get good exp too and provide your healers a good source of exp as well. The best part is that Thany's terrible stats won't hurt combat as you can do all of the above without giving her a single point of field exp. While this utility is rather valuable, her combat still will suck and nothing can save it. I can't see her in upper mid, but I can't see Tate an entire tier above her for mediocre fighting ability and flying utility when she comes only a few chapters before Miledy appears out of nowhere and just outclasses her. I say move Tate to mid?

[Deliriyum]

So basically, Ray's entire performance revolves around nosferatu? You seem to be forgetting that Lilina has 30% more to her magic growth, which will help her heal, if anything.

Why is Lugh weakening an enemy for Ray considered to hurt Lugh's combat record? If Lugh is failing to one-round an enemy, then he is failing to one-round, regardless of who finishes the kill after he's failed to one-round. I don't see what Ray has to do with it, other than the fact that Ray is a better choice than most other units for finishing the kill due to Exp rank.

Unless Lugh is using a lower level tome than he has available for the purpose of giving Ray the kill.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Core

[grandjackal]

Why is Lugh weakening an enemy for Ray considered to hurt Lugh's combat record? If Lugh is failing to one-round an enemy, then he is failing to one-round, regardless of who finishes the kill after he's failed to one-round. I don't see what Ray has to do with it, other than the fact that Ray is a better choice than most other units for finishing the kill due to Exp rank.

You agreeing with Ray in high?

Also, I'll be honest, I'm not a rank guy so perhaps this sort of discussion I should stay away from.

[CATS]

I'm not necessarily agreeing nor disagreeing. I have no strong opinion on the matter. I might look into it in the future, but atm I don't care very much. I was just pointing out what I perceived to be an obvious flaw in someone's logic.

What Core said is a good point, though that certainly won't always be the case.

Anyways, if you want to move Ray down, it might be more effective to compare him against a unit that is firmly set as upper mid material, instead of just talking about his performance in general. Lot would be the best candidate imo.

[Inui]

There should not be a tier gap between Thany and Tate IMO. Thany is your only flier for about 1/3 of the game. Her role in reducing your turncount in chapters that require fliers utility is invaluable:

Chapter 2: She can fly Roy across the mountains to the castle and you can free up Alan, Marcus and Lance to make a break for the boss.

Chapter 3: She can either save turns ferrying Roy to the throne or Lot to the armor knights and hammering them to death or Lugh to the rest of your team

Chapter 4: Not very useful here with the nomad, but can provide some rescuing support freeing up characters you actually might want to fight with

Chapter 5: Can help any PC fly over the mountains saving a many number of turns.

Chapter 6: Nothing than any other mount can do, but makes a decent filler unit to save turns making rescue chains for Roy to talk to Cath and Chad to get all the treasure ASAP

Chapter 7: High deployment might as well bring her, rescuing makes recruiting Treck much easier so he doesn't die the turn after he arrives.

Chapter 8: Probably not very useful, but might be worth bring as mounts are very useful this chapter and the deployment number is decent

Chapter 8X: saves a ridiculous number of turns allowing you to fly your best units over the lava and kill the boss faster since he will otherwise be a pain anyway.

Chapter 9: The south bridge is cramped and Thany can ferry units across the water to the central island saving turns

Chapter 10: probably no reason to bring her...

Chapter 11: Tate is recruited

Thany can also support Lot and Dieck for what its worth as they are thier fastest viable supports. DieckXClarine is just ridiculously slow and he might as well support Thany and Lot for Cs or Bs. Lot is actually a viable character throughout the game I think, but that is a different story for later.

Thany shaves a ridiculous amount of turns. This translates to helping funds, tactics, and exp ranks. The turns that Thany can save you can be spent in the arena so your promoted characters and other fighters can get good exp too and provide your healers a good source of exp as well. The best part is that Thany's terrible stats won't hurt combat as you can do all of the above without giving her a single point of field exp. While this utility is rather valuable, her combat still will suck and nothing can save it. I can't see her in upper mid, but I can't see Tate an entire tier above her for mediocre fighting ability and flying utility when she comes only a few chapters before Miledy appears out of nowhere and just outclasses her. I say move Tate to mid?

This does NOT help your Power or Experience ranks. In fact, it kinda slaughters them. If you're rushing through chapters that much, you're not killing enough enemies to gain enough levels. You'd be forced to arena abuse, and many units can't handle the arena due to how strong the enemies are. Your Power rank gets hurt by having so many low level units. Thany has little combat utility and those supports are a bad idea for her partners due to her affinity and her lack of use later...and her Mov and her not being near them ever if she's doing what you're saying.

Miledy outclasses Tate. This is obviously. She outclasses almost everyone in the game. In fact, she does. Her stats = the highest in the game by far. That doesn't make Tate bad or somehow less useful as a flier. Having two is great.

Tate's combat ability isn't mediocre. Her HM boosts fix that. She's super fast. Her Str isn't bad for her class at all and she can use lances. In terms of raw stats, she's fine. Klein is a viable unit and wants her as a support partner. Clarine will want Klein if Dieck's with Lott/Rutger/someone else. Klein's viable and he and Tate make each other better.

I hate all Pegasus Knights starting with FE 5, and I think Tate is actually decent.

So basically, Ray's entire performance revolves around nosferatu? You seem to be forgetting that Lilina has 30% more to her magic growth, which will help her heal, if anything.

Yeah, sure. It doesn't matter if it does or not. He has it, and the Silver Card lets him spam it. He can swap to Flux to get +1 Atk Spd and +2 Evd when he needs it and also drop his cost.

Lilina's bloated Mag stat never matters that much. She can...one-shot some Wyvern Riders with Aircalibur latter that Ray is also one-rounding and she can maybe one-round a General other units have trouble with. Her actual Atk score isn't much bigger than Ray's since Dark > Anima in power.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[Salad Utensil]

This does NOT help your Power or Experience ranks. In fact, it kinda slaughters them. If you're rushing through chapters that much, you're not killing enough enemies to gain enough levels. You'd be forced to arena abuse, and many units can't handle the arena due to how strong the enemies are. Your Power rank gets hurt by having so many low level units. Thany has little combat utility and those supports are a bad idea for her partners due to her affinity and her lack of use later...and her Mov and her not being near them ever if she's doing what you're saying.

Why do you just jump to this assumption? Where do I assume enemies will be left alive. Did you even read my post on how she can shave off some turns? Thany obviously gives the utility by minimizing turns in some chapters. Lets say 8X Would you rather have Alan and Lance carry Rutger and Dieck all the way to the boss or would Thany just take Rutger over the lava to the boss and let Alan and Lance handle the weaker enemies? In the next chapter is it better to cram all your units through the bridge and be ineffective at handling the enemies or would Thany just be better off carrying someone to the center island? In chapter 5 all the enemies would be dead far before the chests will be finished being looted.

Miledy outclasses Tate. This is obviously. She outclasses almost everyone in the game. In fact, she does. Her stats = the highest in the game by far. That doesn't make Tate bad or somehow less useful as a flier. Having two is great.

umm...right I'm not sure why I brought Miledy into this since this is about Tate's position never mind this point

Tate's combat ability isn't mediocre. Her HM boosts fix that. She's super fast. Her Str isn't bad for her class at all and she can use lances. In terms of raw stats, she's fine. Klein is a viable unit and wants her as a support partner. Clarine will want Klein if Dieck's with Lott/Rutger/someone else. Klein's viable and he and Tate make each other better.

How long is Klein even assumed to be used? The whole game? A few more chapters as filler? I think his bad speed eventually makes him not worth fielding right? Especially now that he is in lower mid (or was it mid)? How does Tate compare to enemies in her joining chapter and the next one? I think if you can show that she is comparable to Lot, I'll stop arguing to drop her.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Brighton

[Inui]

Why do you just jump to this assumption? Where do I assume enemies will be left alive. Did you even read my post on how she can shave off some turns? Thany obviously gives the utility by minimizing turns in some chapters. Lets say 8X Would you rather have Alan and Lance carry Rutger and Dieck all the way to the boss or would Thany just take Rutger over the lava to the boss and let Alan and Lance handle the weaker enemies? In the next chapter is it better to cram all your units through the bridge and be ineffective at handling the enemies or would Thany just be better off carrying someone to the center island? In chapter 5 all the enemies would be dead far before the chests will be finished being looted.

If you progress through all of those chapters at a normal rate, you are still often finishing before reinforcements stop appearing, and the Tactics rank is exceedingly lenient, so what she's doing isn't all that amazing. Using her to shave off turns that don't need to be shaved that will cost you reinforcement kills isn't too cool in my book.

Chapter 5 has chests? Isn't that the one with the fortress around the mountains? You mean 6, right? If Chad is looting every chest and you progress normally, every enemy is dead when he's done regardless, even before it. But reinforcements appear, so you want to kill those.

How long is Klein even assumed to be used? The whole game? A few more chapters as filler? I think his bad speed eventually makes him not worth fielding right? Especially now that he is in lower mid (or was it mid)? How does Tate compare to enemies in her joining chapter and the next one? I think if you can show that she is comparable to Lot, I'll stop arguing to drop her.

Considering that being a Sniper in this game isn't instant failure like in others due to:

-Not taking counters being more awesome due to high enemy power.

-Wyverns being very abundant and durable and bows having triple power on them.

-The Ilia route means they can one-round half the enemies or more.

-The Sacae route means they can effectively counter a large amount of enemies while other units either can't, do so with way less durability, or do so with a horrible weapon.

It can be assumed he's perfectly usable for the whole game, especially since he boasts solid stats and decent supports. He is most certainly an entire tier above someone like Igrene, who doesn't have his awesome joining time and good supports and he'll have a solid level lead on her.

Tate: 8/0 Pegasus Knight with HM boosts (rounded to in-game stats I am currently looking at and usually see)

HP: 29 (60%)

Str: 9 (40%)

Skl: 12 (45%)

Spd: 15 (55%)

Luk: 6 (40%)

Def: 8 (15%)

Res: 8 (20%)

Con: 5

Aid: 16

Mov: 7

Lances

Lott: 12/0 Fighter

HP: 36.2 (80%)

Str: 9.7 (30%)

Skl: 8.7 (30%)

Spd: 10.15 (35%)

Luk: 4.7 (30%)

Def: 7.6 (40%)

Res: 2.35 (15%)

Con: 12

Aid: 11

Mov: 5

Axes

B Dieck: +1 Atk, +10 Evd, +2 Def/Res, +5 Crit, +5 Crit Evd

Without getting his support bonuses, it's a massacre in Tate's favor. She has a 2 Atk Spd win with an Iron Lance and a 5 Atk Spd win with a Slim Lance. Tate's support with Klein is so fast it could hit a C in her joining chapter and will definitely be a C in the one after it, which is +5 Hit, +5 Evd, and +1 Def/Res. Lott receives no additional bonuses yet.

With his supports, Tate still wins offense. She's doubling everything with a Slim Lance, which is better than Lott's single hit with an Iron Axe. Against axe users, they have about the same Hit even though Tate faces WTDA because her Skl rapes his and her weapon is more accurate. Tate isn't a total failure against anything, even axe users, while Lott can't do anything against sword users. Tate's offense win only gets bigger and bigger against anything not a Wyvern or Pegasus, and she one-rounds other Pegs anyways. Lott has a win on Wyverns due to axe/bow combo rape, but that's it. Tate's Str will actually end up better quite soon, which is sad for Lott, as it negates his lead due to his weapon. She always crushes him in Hit very, very badly. She gets to destroy axe users with swords after promotion and can use the Armourslayer on Knights and Generals.

In terms of durability, she's fine. Lott wins big in durability with initially his supports. He has massive HP and solid Def, especially after promotion. However, once Tate can use swords and gets supports and some levels, she starts crushing him in durability. Her Evd goes through the roof and she has more WT control.

Lott has to compete with both Rutger and Dieck for his promotional item. Tate has no competition. Thany is often never used or benched, and even if she's used, there are two Elysian Whips when she joins, so who cares? She delays no other unit's promotion while Lott easily could. If Rutger and Dieck promote first, Lott is waiting a bit to promote, meaning Tate will get a level lead.

Tate is obviously better for the Experience rank.

To me, Tate is better. Possibly by a whole tier, even.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[Balcerzak]

What I find funny about this topic is that Inui is suggesting efficiency tier lists encourage arena/boss abuse, but in FE6 it's REALLY ranked tier lists that encourage it. I posted the numbers when I first joined; you have over 600 turns in FE6 to S-rank Tactics, which means you have TONS of time for support and arena abuse. You should make use of it for the exp rank too.

To S-rank HHM in FE7 you are given 300~ turns. FE7 is much longer and has 0 turn chapters. In FE6 you have twice as many turns. That isn't a little room, that's over 300 turns of room.

I'm going to have to agree in part, and disagree in part. I'm sure I wasn't the first, in fact I know someone (I think it was Reikken) had provided a turn number to aim at for the first half before getting Augury, but I researched and posted the FE6 tactics data fe6runs.pdf (amongst other data provided) back when I did my ranked run. Yes it was slightly inaccurate in a few of the early chapters and in the Final, due to Augury failures, and was incomplete due to lack of Sacae data, and has since been replaced by the superior hacked-to-find-the-values data, but the numbers were certainly around before you joined and "provided them", and honestly your constant boasting about this is getting annoying. At any rate, Nathan Graves and myself contributed our actual turn results as well, to give a taste of what actual playthroughs can reasonably expect to achieve. The end result was that, yes, the tactics rank is extremely lenient if you're striving for any sort of efficiency, especially in Gaiden chapters or chapters with no reinforcements. Which chapters are those? How nice of you to ask, I also compiled a list of observed reinforcements in my run as well, which may be relevant to your interests. FE6UnitArrivals.txt If there are other more complete reinforcement data available, provided by someone else, I'm not aware of it, but would be very interested to hear of it, for independent validation.

In short, FE7 is not "much longer", quite the contrary in fact, and FE6 does not give you "300 turns of room". That said, it does still give you around 80 turns of room, which is still a damn lot, and likely more than you'll ever need.

If you progress through all of those chapters at a normal rate, you are still often finishing before reinforcements stop appearing, and the Tactics rank is exceedingly lenient, so what she's doing isn't all that amazing. Using her to shave off turns that don't need to be shaved that will cost you reinforcement kills isn't too cool in my book.

Chapter 2: No reinforcements

Chapter 3: Last reinforcments at turn 15. Even with Thany ferry you won't be finishing this chapter early enough to miss them.

Chapter 4: Last reinforcements on turn 11. Definitely not missing anything here, and her ability to ferry the weak and rearrange your lines to prepare for the Cav reinforcements from behind might actually be handy if you're still pressured by the regular forces.

Chapter 5: Last reinforcements on turn 15. You can definitely seize before this if you open the gate. I don't think Thany ferry is really viable here, though it may be.

Chapter 6: Reinforcement stop appearing after turn 16, there's no more reason to lollygag around here, and Chad certainly won't be done looting by then, so Thany ferry is appreciated here, as it will keep you from going over the limit.

Chapter 7: Last reinforcements on turn 20. No suggested Thany advantage.

Chapter 8: Last reinforcements on turn 19. You cannot miss any of these, as this map is too goddamn huge. You may well go over the limit, so ferrying may be helpful.

Chapter 8x: No reinforcements at all. Thany ferry recommended, to save turns for when there are enemies worth fighting or arenas worth visiting.

Chapter 9: Last reinforcments on turn 20. You're going to want to stick around for these to train Fir, in my opinion, but Thany still has utility for setting up the early part of the chapter to be more favorable.

Chapter 10: No real need for Thany

Chapter 11(Echidna): Ferrying to the Arena starting at turn 1? What is not to like?

In short, while ultimately shaving turn counts is not entirely necessary in and of itself, there are still reasons to do it, and the utility is still appreciated. Setting yourself up with a better formation, ending maps that would have a dry spell of zero enemies remaining earlier, superlative rescue capability: These are all things Thany brings to the table that she has no competition for for the longest time.

[Tangerine]

(amongst other data provided) back when I did my ranked run. Yes it was slightly inaccurate in a few of the early chapters and in the Final, due to Augury failures, and was incomplete due to lack of Sacae data, and has since been replaced by the superior hacked-to-find-the-values data, but the numbers were certainly around before you joined and "provided them"

I didn't know about your topic, so I apologize for that at least. However, I really don't understand the point of the entire first half of your post. Are you really going to get butthurt over that? Of course they were around before I joined, we've known on GameFAQs for going on a year now, most likely longer because my memory is failing me atm, so I've known for at least that long. Part of the reason the FE6 tiers have been dead for so long and the board is basically just there to troll.

In short, FE7 is not "much longer", quite the contrary in fact, and FE6 does not give you "300 turns of room". That said, it does still give you around 80 turns of room, which is still a damn lot, and likely more than you'll ever need.

I suppose I had more of an efficiency mindset when I said that, considering I've finished the game with a fair amount more than 80 turns to spare when I was trying to beat the current speed record (and I didn't :(). I didn't literally mean 300 free turns either, which I thought was obvious. Looking at the wording now though, I could see where the confusion would stem from.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Tangerine

[Colonel M]

Maybe I can buy Tate > Lott, but I can't really buy a tier difference due to Lott's massive durability in both routes and Bow gives him an opportunity to counterattack in Sacae often while Tate has to fight for a Delphi Shield or get raped by everything that wields a bow (or comes eerily close). Not to mention Lott's >10 chapters of near-positive contributions to make up for "some" of his losses.

I'd also argue Thany > OJ but I might do so later.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Colonel M

[Deliriyum]

Maybe I can buy Tate > Lott, but I can't really buy a tier difference due to Lott's massive durability in both routes and Bow gives him an opportunity to counterattack in Sacae often while Tate has to fight for a Delphi Shield or get raped by everything that wields a bow (or comes eerily close). Not to mention Lott's >10 chapters of near-positive contributions to make up for "some" of his losses.

Don't forget that most of these chapters have armors, and lance wielding bosses, which your other units tend to fail against. Ward x Lot is a very fast support and can help against these bosses. Heck, what are your other options? Armorsloyer!Dieck? The only other good pair for bosses is Alan and Lance, more specifically Alan.

[Colonel M]

Don't forget that most of these chapters have armors, and lance wielding bosses, which your other units tend to fail against. Ward x Lot is a very fast support and can help against these bosses. Heck, what are your other options? Armorsloyer!Dieck? The only other good pair for bosses is Alan and Lance, more specifically Alan.

The AKs are an okay point and Halberd is nice to whack a Cavalier when it's safe to, but I'd value Armorslayer!Deak or Rutgar over Hammer!Lott on an AK boss, for example, due to the Throne's Avoid and Hammer's shit Accuracy even with WTA.

[Deliriyum]

The AKs are an okay point and Halberd is nice to whack a Cavalier when it's safe to, but I'd value Armorslayer!Deak or Rutgar over Hammer!Lott on an AK boss, for example, due to the Throne's Avoid and Hammer's shit Accuracy even with WTA.

I wasn't even thinking about Hammer, which isn't available until chapter 9, I think.

[Colonel M]

I wasn't even thinking about Hammer, which isn't available until chapter 9, I think.

Wade comes with a free Hammer.

[Deliriyum]

Wade comes with a free Hammer.

Oh, ok. I don't know why that didn't register to me. Brain fart.

[Dat Nick]

Why is Lugh weakening an enemy for Ray considered to hurt Lugh's combat record? If Lugh is failing to one-round an enemy, then he is failing to one-round, regardless of who finishes the kill after he's failed to one-round. I don't see what Ray has to do with it, other than the fact that Ray is a better choice than most other units for finishing the kill due to Exp rank.

The thing is that Ray still isn't one rounding either so he's harming the combat rank just as much. Also I really don't buy that everybody else is around 12 by C12, does anybody have levels of a random team by then?

[Balcerzak]

The thing is that Ray still isn't one rounding either so he's harming the combat rank just as much. Also I really don't buy that everybody else is around 12 by C12, does anybody have levels of a random team by then?

Chapter	12
Roy	13.31
Marcus	5.57
Alan	17.03
Lance	18.46
Wolt	4.47
Bors	2.88
Merlinus	1.00
Ellen	12.00
Dieck	18.76
Thany	15.02
Lot	6.02
Ward	5.92
Chad	15.88
Lugh	11.24
Rutger	19.71
Clarine	18.33
Saul	17.56
Dorothy	7.81
Sue	6.55
Noah	15.41
Treck	7.75
Zealot	1.60
Astol	17.97
Lilina	17.08
Wendy	2.56
Barth	9.33
Oujay	6.36
Fir	16.74
Shin	6.39
Gonzales	19.17
Geese	10.03
Lalum	4.72
Echidna	3.25
Klein	1.30
Tate	9.04
Cass	5.00
Rei	12.00

[dondon151]

Every time I've attempted to rank HM, I go to chapter 17I, hunker down for 60 turns, and abuse the arena.

[CATS]

The thing is that Ray still isn't one rounding either so he's harming the combat rank just as much. Also I really don't buy that everybody else is around 12 by C12, does anybody have levels of a random team by then?

Ofcourse, Ray not one rounding is bad for Combat, I'm not denying that. It seemed to me that the guy was trying to say that Ray somehow makes Lugh worse in addition to not being good himself, and that's what I was addressing.