FE6 HM Tier List

[Refa]

Wouldn't the "more" reliable strats be pretty much the same except instead of killing the boss in like 2 turns you take 20?

[XeKr]

FE6 is the one game where the contrast between lowest turns possible and reliability is most pronounced, I think. I'd expect that if you moved at a slower pace to allow your efficient, not-quite-lowest-turn strategies to succeed, you'd not only have time to bring up Allen and Lance, getting them to a decent support level early without stopping to do it, but even find use for guys like Geese (whom I don't imagine being any useful in LTC play at all, unlike the archer units in the bottom tier who do offer some utility).

Understandable. One of the advantages imo is a slightly larger and perhaps more interesting discussion space. We can talk about what Geese could potentially do, instead of trivially nothing.

I’m not so sure what others think, but I find unreliable strats quite inelegant (especially in other games, but because RNG is fixed here…) or at least so much as really slow but really reliable strats. Though for the most part, most people will draw the line somewhere. Exactly where is quite subjective and with little consensus. Therefore my view is it’s preferable have to have a statistical model naturally draw the line, in a sense.

Wouldn't the "more" reliable strats be pretty much the same except instead of killing the boss in like 2 turns you take 20?

In some cases the reliable strats are identical except with more cautious play vs. the boss. In other cases, there remain existing enemies that you don’t deal with because you get there/kill boss/dance/seize so fast. Some variant strategy may be preferable. To clarify, for the most part it requires an extra turn or so, but not always, particularly as mentioned in FE6.

In an (perhaps feeble) attempt to prevent further philosophy tangents, the simplest solution is to have CM clarify what he wants for his list (or debate so with him).

Edited April 13, 2014 by XeKr

[Colonel M]

More reliable strategies involve minimal resets and reliance on clutch dodges / crits.

A better way to put it is like this - Rutger opts for a Silver Sword to reliably 2HKO a unit instead of chancing with a critical strike, or an extra turn is used to lessen the reliability of needing a critical to take down a boss. It does not mean taking 20 turns to kill a boss unless, for some reason, absolutely necessary.

(That is not to define it - mainly a rebuttal to Refa).

Edited April 13, 2014 by Colonel M

[Espinosa]

I think the differences would be pretty noticeable, mainly:

1. You benefit from having additional bosskillers, so the way you move your units forward will be different, beginning from turn 1.

2. You are no longer bumrushing to seize because it's too unrealistic to expect to achieve the ideal turn count (and even the stragglers can take a couple more turns to clean up because of the low weapon hit and high enemy stats), and these extra turns consistently convert into beter level-ups for growth units with decent enough average stats (i.e. not Thany or Roy, whose blessing is almost imperative for actual low-turning with growths).

I think "reliable efficiency" accurately fits the tier list's current structure and unit placements (such as Allen/Lance high up, Gonzales and Dieck not too low), whereas some of the recently introduced changes, like the warpers moving up, can be questioned in terms of whether one can realistically expect a warpskip strat to not fail without relying on restarting or emulator conveniences (which are almost necessary in LTCing, though I recall Hawk King LTC'd on cart, but that must've been a huge pain in the arse). If it's too likely that the warped unit(-s) are getting slaughtered, then you just slowly lead your whole army (not necessarily slowly, but not matching the LTC turn counts at all).

Our tier lists have mostly been aware of and tried to integrate both understandings of efficiency all along though, haven't they?

[Refa]

In some cases the reliable strats are identical except with more cautious play vs. the boss. In other cases, there remain existing enemies that you don’t deal with because you get there/kill boss/dance/seize so fast. Some variant strategy may be preferable. To clarify, for the most part it requires an extra turn or so, but not always, particularly as mentioned in FE6.

Fair enough, I was being reductionist. Honestly I still don't think that save for a few tough maps it should require that many more turns? Although I haven't done any sort of FE6 efficiency run so I'll concede the point if someone who has says otherwise.

More reliable strategies involve minimal resets and reliance on clutch dodges / crits.

A better way to put it is like this - Rutger opts for a Silver Sword to reliably 2HKO a unit instead of chancing with a critical strike, or an extra turn is used to lessen the reliability of needing a critical to take down a boss. It does not mean taking 20 turns to kill a boss unless, for some reason, absolutely necessary.

(That is not to define it - mainly a rebuttal to Refa).

Oh, the 20 turns to kill the boss was more of a joke at the bad hitrates, not the user intentionally being slow.

[XeKr]

I think the differences would be pretty noticeable, mainly:

1. You benefit from having additional bosskillers, so the way you move your units forward will be different, beginning from turn 1.

2. You are no longer bumrushing to seize because it's too unrealistic to expect to achieve the ideal turn count (and even the stragglers can take a couple more turns to clean up because of the low weapon hit and high enemy stats), and these extra turns consistently convert into beter level-ups for growth units with decent enough average stats (i.e. not Thany or Roy, whose blessing is almost imperative for actual low-turning with growths).

I think "reliable efficiency" accurately fits the tier list's current structure and unit placements (such as Allen/Lance high up, Gonzales and Dieck not too low), whereas some of the recently introduced changes, like the warpers moving up, can be questioned in terms of whether one can realistically expect a warpskip strat to not fail without relying on restarting or emulator conveniences (which are almost necessary in LTCing, though I recall Hawk King LTC'd on cart, but that must've been a huge pain in the arse). If it's too likely that the warped unit(-s) are getting slaughtered, then you just slowly lead your whole army (not necessarily slowly, but not matching the LTC turn counts at all).

Our tier lists have mostly been aware of and tried to integrate both understandings of efficiency all along though, haven't they?

All good points, I agree with you.

I was mainly noting that while recent discussion has proceeded quite reasonably so far, there exist some glimmering points of contention (Zeiss, Chad, Wolt, Killer usage, etc), that have traditionally suggested some fundamental clash of understanding/philosophy (remains to be seen if people care to argue them in detail).

And tbh, I'm a bit surprised Allen/Lance's severe drop is as controversial as it's been (meaning, not very), given they used to be top of top.

EDIT:

@Polydeuces (below): People are just discussing whatever points they find interesting it seems, as a lot of stuff has been thrown into the ring. Right now, it's mostly the Snipers, I think?

I'm essentially positive this is vanilla mechanics, but shifting toward the new translations for names.

Edited April 13, 2014 by XeKr

[MRDRHAWK]

Okay, can someone give me a tl;dr of the latest list in discussion right now?

Also, are we discussing based on vanilla FE6 stats, or Gringe's balance patch?

[Colonel M]

Vanilla stats. Just transferring names slowly.

Also I wish I had Devil's Advocate Anouleth here to help me out on reliance and luck.

[-Cynthia-]

So will Dayan be going right below Juno or something?

Also, if you do not take recruitment costs in account of a unit ever I suggest raising Hugh.

Edited April 13, 2014 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

So will Dayan be going right below Juno or something?

I thought I had him already. Mustve forgotten.

Yeah he would likely slide either over or under Juuno. Still in debate on this one because Dayan has bows and horse vs Juno's flight utility.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Colonel M

[MRDRHAWK]

Okay, so here's my thoughts:

-How is Saul above Zealot/Alan/Lance/Shin, when his staff utility already has two challengers, one of whom is mounted? He should drop at least a full tier.

-Are we accounting for HM bonuses? If so, I think Shin should be top tier and Fir should go into at least upper mid.

-How come Niime is so high with such poor availability compared to others who can easily do her jobs just as well by the time she joins?

-Chad/Astor should go down at least a few pegs. Astor's combat without a promotion isn't good enough to keep him in high tier, and Chad just blows ass.

-Lilina should come up a few spots. Defense aside, I find she can do much more combat-wise than Lugh can, at the cost of a later join time. I'd still keep Lugh above her for better availability, but I feel that Lilina is too low.

-Deke needs to be at least at high tier. If Echidna's Upper Mid, he's at least that high. In fact, I'd personally argue that he should go into top; really, six move and low axe hitrates (which are mitigated at least somewhat by his high skill) are the only things holding him back from snapping the game in half before Miledy even joins due to insane bases, great availability and the fact that he can promote very early.

-Hugh should come up a lot. He doesn't even cost too much, even if you're saving cash, and he can easily contribute, especially in Sacae where he's not dealing with high-resistance Peg Knights.

-Geese needs to come up too, even with axe hitrates taken into account. Early Brave access, decent bases, and good availability mean that he can easily be a viable unit without too much investment.

[dondon151]

-How is Saul above Zealot/Alan/Lance/Shin, when his staff utility already has two challengers, one of whom is mounted? He should drop at least a full tier.

saul has no challengers to his staff utility. he hits promotion before ellen, starts with C staves (for barrier), reaches B staves quicker (for physic), and reaches A staves quicker (for warp). clarine is even less likely than ellen to do all of these things.

-Are we accounting for HM bonuses? If so, I think Shin should be top tier and Fir should go into at least upper mid.

shin does not deserve to be in top tier because he's never a self-sustaining juggernaut. fir does not deserve upper mid because she's never actually useful.

-How come Niime is so high with such poor availability compared to others who can easily do her jobs just as well by the time she joins?

niime has 15 range warp, which increases to 18 range upon S dark, and the highest staff accuracy of any usable unit. for reference, saul does not ever reach 21 mag on average.

-Chad/Astor should go down at least a few pegs. Astor's combat without a promotion isn't good enough to keep him in high tier, and Chad just blows ass.

astor's combat is plenty good for a short period of time. his combat is serviceable up until chapter 12x. he gets some credit for stealing items that can get sold for boots and for getting the delphi shield.

-Deke needs to be at least at high tier. If Echidna's Upper Mid, he's at least that high. In fact, I'd personally argue that he should go into top; really, six move and low axe hitrates (which are mitigated at least somewhat by his high skill) are the only things holding him back from snapping the game in half before Miledy even joins due to insane bases, great availability and the fact that he can promote very early.

deke blows lol; he's unmounted and not an extraordinary bosskiller by any means.

-Hugh should come up a lot. He doesn't even cost too much, even if you're saving cash, and he can easily contribute, especially in Sacae where he's not dealing with high-resistance Peg Knights.

hugh is so bad in sacae. he has something like 13 AS against 20 AS nomads and NTs.

-Geese needs to come up too, even with axe hitrates taken into account. Early Brave access, decent bases, and good availability mean that he can easily be a viable unit without too much investment.

brave axe on geese means almost nothing when he has 3 AS at base.

Edited April 13, 2014 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Also, if you do not take recruitment costs in account of a unit ever I suggest raising Hugh.

We'll see. One thing I do want to note is specifically what dondon said because I noticed this when I used Hugh in Sacae:

hugh is so bad in sacae. he has something like 13 AS against 20 AS nomads and NTs.

The only noteworthy contribution is having Aircalibur to shit on Wyvern Riders / Lords in some of the Sacae chapters. And then Aircalibur for Pegasi. But still, mediocre movement is mediocre. I mean how does Hugh beat the current units he's below:

Walt

Dayan
Juno

Dayan and Juno arguably have better utility than Hugh does and Dayan is okay at combat - his issue is he won't get to Migure fast enough.

[-Cynthia-]

Hugh has like double the availability of Dayan/Juno to be fair.

He performs a similar role to Lugh/Lilina (using Aircalibur to kill wyverns, accurately chipping other stuff and killing generals too I suppose) except that we just throw a promotion item on him rather than needing to feed him kills for 9 levels (and a promotion item). Granted Lugh and Lilina might be able to do their jobs earlier, though in an efficient run getting them these levels may not be easy.

Hugh's combat isn't good overall in Sacae, but neither is any Lower Mid character.

Edited April 14, 2014 by -Cynthia-

[Xator Nova]

In my opinion, Hugh's situation is like this:

- Hugh's true recruitment cost is 5000 G, because it is the minimum payment. That isn't taken into account when rating him.

- You've to pay another 5000 G in order for him to have his maximum bases, and pay/sacrifice another 5000 G for his promotion item to reach his maximum potential instantly. This should be taken as an investment, because it is purely optional.

- Even after investing 10000 G into him, his stats (25 Atk, 41 eff. Atk, 13 AS) aren't anything espectacular because he's doubled in Sacae by 19 AS nomads unless you level him up to Lv20/3 (not happening), and depends on Aircalibur in order to be useful in Ilia. It must be noted that he doesn't double attack Wyvern Knights with 10-11 AS, and he misses the OHKO in both pegasi and Wyvern Knights.

- If you decide to pay the minimum (this means, no investment), he has Lilina-like Speed and even less Mag than Lugh. 22 Atk (38 eff. Atk), 10 AS with Aircalibur at Lv15/1 blows due to failing to OHKO Pegasus Knights with 33 HP, 10 Res, or Wyvern Knights with 43 HP, 2 Res in Chapter 18, while not doubling weighed-down pegasi with 7 AS.

This is definitely Low Tier quality combat.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Xator Nova

[Shin]

Dayan's actually pretty servicable. He does some decent damage to Wyverns with the Silver Bow, and are the only things really he'll be facing in the last few chapters. His speed's enough to double mounted enemies and he can put a dent in them. My main gripe with him is that you've probably raised Shin or Sue to get him, who will inevitably be better than him if trained. There's also the fact he exists for like 4 chapters.

Hugh doesn't really offer much over the other mages, he's roughly on par with Lugh and Lilina if they're all even levelled, but they will probably have promoted by Hugh's recruitment if used. Considering it costs 10,000 just to get Hugh to be on par with them, which can be used elsewhere. Lugh has some use as a magical chip early on. Lilina doesn't really have that luxury.

Even compared to the people in the lower tiers, he lacks Dayan's instant usability, and only exists for slightly longer. Hugh really needs quite a lot of investment to become useful.

[Colonel M]

I do agree with Cynthia that Lugh / Lilina will never chip like Hugh does. I mean let us face it - maybe the issue is Lilina and Juno / Dayan should swap places.

[XeKr]

iirc it was theorized that a trained Lugh/Lilina can obtain the Anima rank to Bolting stuff (Lugh far more likely?). So yeah, it depends on how fast you think they level. If all they do is chip (in different parts of the game), then maybe they should be ranked closer.

No idea what Ray does.

[PKL]

Raigh is awful. Should be a lot lower.

[Colonel M]

Ray just pretends he is a good unit.

He might be worse than Lilina and Lugh actually.

[grandjackal]

Ray is definitely worse than Lugh and Lillina. Lugh has some early free utility, and Lillina at least starts with the rank for Elfire to at least do hefty chip when she shows up, at a time where your units are probably more in need of such chip. Ray shows up around the time you've probably promoted some good units with crap accuracy, though his chip is still somewhat considerable.

Speaking of people who should switch places with either Juno or Dayan, could Geese drop down to them due to being permanently mediocre?

Edited April 14, 2014 by grandjackal

[Colonel M]

Speaking of people who should switch places with either Juno or Dayan, could Geese drop down to them due to being permanently mediocre?

Certainly. Geese is godawful.

[-Cynthia-]

Ray is definitely worse than Lugh and Lillina. Lugh has some early free utility, and Lillina at least starts with the rank for Elfire to at least do hefty chip when she shows up, at a time where your units are probably more in need of such chip. Ray shows up around the time you've probably promoted some good units with crap accuracy, though his chip is still somewhat considerable.

Speaking of people who should switch places with either Juno or Dayan, could Geese drop down to them due to being permanently mediocre?

Ray at least doesn't get ORKO'd by stuff(mostly) and can be insta promoted for OK combat, I can't say the same for Lilina. He's already below Lugh.

I can see Hugh where he is now if the actual recruitment cost is only 5k and the other 5k is extra. 10k is a pretty big investment for mediocrity, even if he's better than someone like Oujay after it.

Edited April 15, 2014 by -Cynthia-

[XeKr]

I mean, 12/1 Raigh has something like 95 hit, 10 AS with Nosferatu, which doubles….nothing in C13 (at a glance). Even if he somehow got a few levels he’s still isn’t doubling most things. And still bad hit, too. Does he really compare that favorably to Hugh? Mid seems like a stretch.

Also, not really going to defend Geese here, as axe hit rates vs. existent enemy luck don’t mesh too well in whatever marginally usable context one might imagine. But to be fair, he’s already quite low.

[-Cynthia-]

A number of Mid characters aren't really that great to be fair. I mean Garret only has 11 base AS (and is a few chapters after Ray) and is axelocked so he has poor hit as well.

Ray isn't good, but I haven't seen any comparisons that indicate Lower Mid units are much better. Lilina seems pretty much untrainable on an efficient playthrough and Oujay is very difficult as well (2HKO'd by everything, takes counters).