FE6 HM Tier List

[grandjackal]

Lot's still a terrible example to use, because his hit is already bad at 1 range, it's even worse at 2. Use a character with javelins and/or existing skill.

Yeah, it was a hand axe. Lance with a javelin's not much better, 63 displayed due to WTA if Roy and Allen are around, take away Roy and we have 56 displayed, 61 on mercs (which is still less than Dorothy if said merc was on terrain when she shot it).

Still less accurate by at least 10.

[Colonel M]

Just stating that I'm up to C5. I can't recall my C1 turncount and C2 was recorded but I used units on the field instead of turncounts for some reason. Anyway, it took 15 turns for C3 and C4 (C3 couldve been easier to clear if I used Marcus, but I sent him to get Lugh). Alan is slightly behind Lance in levels, but he'll catch up in C5. In the runthrough of C5 (Lance died because he crit the Merc) I got Cs for Dieck and Thany for Lot. Hoping that Roy can get Cs by C6.

Also in this so-called dry run, Lot did okay with hitting with Iron Axe. Nothing spectacular, but if they're off the forests he does "okay". Dieck is iffy on doubling these guys with his 12 Spd (they need Hand or Steel for him to double some of them). Mercenaries in forests suck ass though: Alan had 50 Hit with Iron Lance against one. <_<;

[grandjackal]

Anyways, if bowmanship can be seen as positive utility (since you can be pretty minimal with it and still have an effect felt), would this mean that the archers are contributing positively during their time of existing? What of mages, like Ray/Lillina/Sophia, as they're rather similar in that sense? How does one measure how helpful this sort of utility can be? If even the minimal is good enough, what of someone like Shin?

Regardless though Colonel, I've shown a rather reasonable situation that measured out Walt's effects. Not quite sure what the rest of that has to do with Walt, but if he helps them out too then cool. Helping Deick not have to rely on more inaccurate weapons to take care of a merc helps, so perhaps I was limiting myself into how Walt could manage. Then consider Lou and Walt could team up on a fighter to do a acombined total of 15 damage, leaving it with 18 HP. Deick with 10 Str has 21 might with a steel blade, 22 on WTA. He would cleanly kill while avoiding the counter. Obviously, this wouldn't have happened if we weren't using Walt.

Which brings me to offense points. I won't push anything just yet, but what do you think of the idea of an archer getting a way to boost their offense? Just an example, Walt's supports with Lance and Roy. Overall, they would lose 1 might. While it would mean 1-2 less damage on the counter, that's still a combined 2 damage extra for Walt so he would make up for it on the player phase. The difference now being, he could more effectively reduce effort needed for other enemies, and help weaker offense units need less effort to take something down. So that 1 might for Roy and Lance only slightly weakens their own enemy phase, but that +2 might for Walt improves everyone else's player phase.

I only hope that makes sense, because I know the idea of giving Walt supports rises bile in everyone's stomach.

[dondon151]

So, uh, what happened to Alan?

[grandjackal]

So, uh, what happened to Alan?

He still gets A Lance B Roy

[Dat Nick]

Supporting Walt is retarded. It's a waste of support slots for Alan, Lance, or Roy. You're giving up 2-3 atk points for Lance (Which can equate to 4-6 damage) so Walt can do 1 more damage. It's dumb, and this is IGNORING the fact that the movement gap makes it annoying to get the bonuses to begin with, let alone build the support.

[Anouleth]

Supporting Walt is retarded. It's a waste of support slots for Alan, Lance, or Roy. You're giving up 2-3 atk points for Lance (Which can equate to 4-6 damage) so Walt can do 1 more damage. It's dumb, and this is IGNORING the fact that the movement gap makes it annoying to get the bonuses to begin with, let alone build the support.

Then kill off Walt when he's no longer being used.

[grandjackal]

Supporting Walt is retarded. It's a waste of support slots for Alan, Lance, or Roy.

For Allen? Sure, that's why I'm not suggesting he support Walt.

Lance and Roy, explain to me how they're complaining so much over 1 might, especially since Walt with Roy is faster and closer by, while Walt offers Lance 1 more Def in exchange?

You're giving up 2-3 atk points for Lance (Which can equate to 4-6 damage) so Walt can do 1 more damage.

B Roy with Lance is 2 ATK, B Walt is 1 ATK. Lance still As with Allen. I only lost 1 might, so that's 1-2 damage. Heck, in exchange Lance gets 1 more defense.

Roy and Lance lose 1 might, and Walt gains 2 in exchange to make player phase all the more simple for the rest of my army as a whole, as he would be able to reduce the effort needed that is put forth by anyone else, and still be able to make up the damage needed to reduce effort for this "weaker" Lance or Roy.

You accidentally the math.

It's dumb, and this is IGNORING the fact that the movement gap makes it annoying to get the bonuses to begin with, let alone build the support.

Hi, I'm Roy, and you're free to handwave me even though the same situation being next to TWO cavs at once rather than 1 is quite a less likely situation.

BB Roy triangle tethers both to Roy, while with Walt, Lance is a bit more free to stray from Roy if he wants to. This allows me more freedom.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Anouleth]

B Roy with Lance is 2 ATK, B Walt is 1 ATK. Lance still As with Allen. I only lost 1 might, so that's 1-2 damage. Heck, in exchange Lance gets 1 more defense.

Roy and Lance lose 1 might, and Walt gains 2 in exchange to make player phase all the more simple for the rest of my army as a whole, as he would be able to reduce the effort needed that is put forth by anyone else, and still be able to make up the damage needed to reduce effort for this "weaker" Lance or Roy.

You accidentally the math.

I'm not sure if +2 damage on player phase is more useful than 2x +1 damage on player and enemy phase. More when Lance and Roy double.

B Walt takes 45 turns - are we even still going to be using Walt after that long?

[Dat Nick]

B Roy with Lance is 2 ATK, B Walt is 1 ATK.

B Roy B Walt...you just fucked over the Alan/Lance support, you realize that, right? Now Alan's stuck with Roy and Walt to support. You destroyed the triangle just so Walt could have 1 or 2 more attack points that barely even help.

Hi, I'm Roy, and you're free to handwave me even though the same situation being next to TWO cavs at once rather than 1 is quite a less likely situation.

When did I say this didn't apply to Roy? The cavs supporting each other takes priority over the Roy support, by far.

Also, the difference is that Roy actually gets something out of the support. 4 atk/20 avo is heug. Walt just gets 1-2 atk and some defense he doesn't care about. Neither are particularly good secondary options for the cavs, they just take the Roy support because it's there. Maybe they'll ditch Roy support for Walt support, but that's still rather dubious because, well, marginal bonuses and move differences, it really doesn't fix a single thing that's wrong with Walt, which is his base speed, mobility, and being stuck to 2 range. They're sure as hell not giving up each other for a dumbass support like Walt, though. Period.

Being melee also makes it much easier to keep units in the support range. Walt already has enough trouble with that, let's not give him more.

Edited March 11, 2010 by s Portsman

[grandjackal]

I'm not sure if +2 damage on player phase is more useful than 2x +1 damage on player and enemy phase. More when Lance and Roy double.

What would it help ORKO what they wouldn't otherwise? Nothing? Thought so.

B Walt takes 45 turns - are we even still going to be using Walt after that long?

Depends on how willing you'd be to sandbag bow utility.

Level 6 Walt has 6 STR. Steel bow ust aquired in chapter 6, that's 15 might. Add 2 form Lance and Roy, that's 17.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch6.html

Can ORKO javelin soldiers with steel, and even if he's using iron he would still be helping someone avoid a counter with iron doing 12x2 damage. Lou couldn't dream of ORKOing a soldier if he wanted, and n the event Walt can't, Walt would still be doing similar damage if not a slight bit more.

11 damage to a merc, something everyone has problems on. To do the same damage, Lou would need to be level 9.

He sucks against armors, but I have to question if Walt is seriously only gaining 5 levels in 6 chapters.

[Dat Nick]

What's keeping Bors out of bottom?

[dondon151]

What would it help ORKO what they wouldn't otherwise? Nothing? Thought so.

You're forgetting KO combinations and the frequency with which the support comes into play. If Wolt is not in range, which will happen more often than Alan (or Roy for that matter), Lance loses 2 atk, or 4 damage for most rounds of combat, and that 4 damage compounds if he still doesn't have Wolt nearby on enemy phase.

[grandjackal]

Tankbotting in chapter 4, probably able to go get Lou with little trouble by himself, leaving the rest of the army to charge through the middle. Not great, but not useless either.

B Roy B Walt...you just fucked over the Alan/Lance support, you realize that, right? Now Alan's stuck with Roy and Walt to support. You destroyed the triangle just so Walt could have 1 or 2 more attack points that barely even help.

A Roy Walt, A Allen Lance, Allen Bs Roy (so I didn't change his supports at all), Lance Bs Walt. Hell, you don't even need to have Roy and Walt hit A, you can just leave them at B to fill in a C for someone else (Walt's only got Marcus and Sue, but I'm sure when it finally hits, Marcus wouldn't mind +1 Def, 5 hit and avoid, plenty others could use that final slot for Roy's fire a bit better than Walt getting an extra +5 hit, avoid and 2 crit).

I destroyed no triangle at all, I merely made a square that's still just as effective, if not moreso (Roy gets his bonuses easier, Allen and Lance are tethered to seperate units rather than both to one so I have a bit more movement freedom with them).

When did I say this didn't apply to Roy? The cavs supporting each other takes priority over the Roy support, by far.

and Walt would have just as little problem supporting Lance afterward along with Roy on Allen, your point being?

Also, the difference is that Roy actually gets something out of the support. 4 atk/20 avo is heug. Walt just gets 1-2 atk and some defense he doesn't care about. Neither are particularly good secondary options for the cavs, they just take the Roy support because it's there. Maybe they'll ditch Roy support for Walt support, but that's still rather dubious because, well, marginal bonuses and move differences, it really doesn't fix a single thing that's wrong with Walt, which is his base speed, mobility, and being stuck to 2 range. They're sure as hell not giving up each other for a dumbass support like Walt, though. Period.

Allen still gets Roy as I explained, if anything it's just Lance getting minimally less attack in exchange for more freedom and 1 Def for what it's worth.

I also outlined how it still helps early on and has effects felt in chapter 6. It helps him attack people who counter him more often (where Lou is up shit creek without a paddle on that deal, especially in chapter 5), and it helps his accuracy and might when fighting the wyverns in chapter 7.

It's not quite shite, though I can understand how you think it might be a bit dubious.

Being melee also makes it much easier to keep units in the support range. Walt already has enough trouble with that, let's not give him more.

You can be in 3 range of the supporter, how does it put Walt in melee range?

@Dondon: Never said Walt takes an Allen support, how more often is Roy really being thrown out there to do what the cavs are supposed to be doing anyways, and how does Walt not factor into KO combinations considering he makes it much easier to work with than Roy's melee? Walt is capable of attacking, he can't not be able to be part in a KO combination.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Cait Sith

[dondon151]

What's keeping Bors out of bottom?

Bors is actually kind of good in chapters 2 through 4. Aside from the horrific movement issues.

[Narga_Rocks]

B Roy B Walt...you just fucked over the Alan/Lance support, you realize that, right? Now Alan's stuck with Roy and Walt to support. You destroyed the triangle just so Walt could have 1 or 2 more attack points that barely even help.

Okay, I know GJ isn't always the clearest with describing his ideas, but come on.

Allen: A Lance, B Roy

Lance: A Allen, B Wolt

Roy: B Allen, B Wolt

Wolt: B Lance, B Roy

Whether or not this is a good idea (it's not) isn't relevant. I just want to make sure everyone is clear on what is actually being proposed.

Allen gets the same bonuses.

Lance has 3 fires, 5 animas, and 2 ice instead of 5 fire and 5 anima.

Roy has 6 fires and 2 ice instead of 6 fires and 2 animas

Wolt has 4 ice, 2 fires, and 2 animas instead of zilch.

Allen loses/gains nothing.

Lance trades 2 fires for 2 ices. He loses 1 mt, 5 crit, and in return gains 1 def/res and 5 crit evade

Roy trades 2 animas for 2 ices. He loses 1 mt and in return gains 5 accuracy. (Lance is hurt more than Roy)

Wolt gets +2mt, +3 def/res, 15 accuracy, 20 avoid, 5 crit, 15 crit evade.

Really IS should not have given archers ice. The only useful thing that ice gives to archers is accuracy. They need/want +mt and crit (most of the time, since granted chapters with lots of Nomads can exist and the rest of the stuff isn't bad then). And accuracy is probably third on their list of wants right after #1 mt and #2 crit.

Oh, and to GJ, the difference between two mounted units supporting one foot unit and two mounted units supporting two foot units should be obvious. It's far easier to make rescue chains for getting just Roy up to the cavs than to do so for two foot units. Also, hey, Roy needs to seize every single chapter. That gives him a huge priority advantage over Wolt for being carried (just in case you were thinking of having Allen + Lance support with Wolt and carry him around as the single foot unit).

Oh, and if you up Roy + Wolt to As then you get:

+5 accuracy, +5 avoid, +2 crit, +2 cev.

Wolt now has:

+2mt, +3 def/res, 20 accuracy, 25 avoid, 7 crit, 17 crit evade.

Roy now has:

+3mt, +1 def/res, 25 accuracy, 25 avoid, 17 crit, 7 crit evade.

instead of Roy: B Lance, B Allen

+4mt, +1 def/res, 15 accuracy, 20 avoid, 15 crit, 5 crit evade.

At this point, I'm actually willing to say Roy is happy to get the A Wolt over B Lance. Of course, Roy being carried towards the throne is still a problem for keeping Wolt and Roy near each other. Especially if Thany gets in on the rescue chains and carries him over mountains or something fun like that. And the fact that 75 adjacents + however many non-adjacents later it could be pretty late in the game and I doubt you are using Wolt anymore.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

There are some big issues with supporting Cavs and Archers, mainly Lance is one of our better tanks earlygame, while Wolt should clearly not be in a psoition to take attacks. I'm not seeing how they'll be adjacent very often.

Roy/Wolt adjacent is more likely. Another thing to consider with earlygame supports though is Marcus, he has fast supports with Roy/Lance/Alan as well. Sure we're droppign him after earlygame, but since we were planning to the same thing with Wolt, who cares?

[Narga_Rocks]

There are some big issues with supporting Cavs and Archers, mainly Lance is one of our better tanks earlygame, while Wolt should clearly not be in a psoition to take attacks. I'm not seeing how they'll be adjacent very often.

Roy/Wolt adjacent is more likely. Another thing to consider with earlygame supports though is Marcus, he has fast supports with Roy/Lance/Alan as well. Sure we're droppign him after earlygame, but since we were planning to the same thing with Wolt, who cares?

The idea is all sorts of bad. I just want to make sure that the idea is clearly defined and not left open to misinterpretation.

[grandjackal]

Marcus rescues Walt, Lance drops. Thany rescues Roy and Allen drops, or vice versa.

I agree that ice is a bad choice, but it does let them attack those that would counter them more often (like mages. Chapter 6 as an example, Level 7 or 8 Walt can take on a mage with just 1 Res boost, and if he were level 8 he would have the chance to proc speed and ORKO it with iron (as it has 4 AS, Walt would then have 8 speed), and greater accuracy can help (such as in chapter 7, when he being hte only archer with established supports and an accuracy affinity would be the best one to take potshots at wyverns using steel).

However, I will not push it beyond earlygame if the potential is too low (14/1 Walt is similar to Klein with supports considered. 1 less might and probably bow rank versus established supports with greater crit, acc and 1 more con which could allow him to use Steel where Klein could only double with silver. Outside of wyverns, the damage difference still could leave cavs in chapter 13 in single digits, of which anyone then could still mop-up, frm there on it's just Walt's slightly better growths). You can still support it up if you wish, but like Ward you could just choose to off Walt if you wish.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Narga_Rocks]

Marcus rescues Walt, Lance drops. Thany rescues Roy and Allen drops, or vice versa.

I agree that ice is a bad choice, but it does let them attack those that would counter them more often (like mages. Chapter 6 as an example, Level 7 or 8 Walt can take on a mage with just 1 Res boost, and if he were level 8 he would have the chance to proc speed and ORKO it with iron (as it has 4 AS, Walt would then have 8 speed), and greater accuracy can help (such as in chapter 7, when he being hte only archer with established supports and an accuracy affinity would be the best one to take potshots at wyverns using steel).

However, I will not push it beyond earlygame if the potential is too low (14/1 Walt is similar to Klein with supports considered. 1 less might and probably bow rank versus established supports with greater crit, acc and 1 more con which could allow him to use Steel where Klein could only double with silver. Outside of wyverns, the damage difference still could leave cavs in chapter 13 in single digits, of which anyone then could still mop-up, frm there on it's just Walt's slightly better growths). You can still support it up if you wish, but like Ward you could just choose to off Walt if you wish.

So, rather than use your mounts to carry, say, Roy + Dieck or Roy + Rutger, you'd choose Roy + Wolt to carry towards the throne while two of your best characters (Dieck + Rutger) are trying to catch up? I'd even take Lugh over Wolt considering he (eventually) has much better speed and isn't weighed down by any of his weapons until Forblaze appears (forblaze is available before bolting). Steel bow cuts Wolt's already low speed by two. Elfire does nothing to Lugh's speed and 75 hit is a fair amount better than 65 hit. Also Lugh has more luck and more skill. Also Wolt's supports are more troublesome than Lughs (though this doesn't help wrt the carrying thing since Chad would get left behind).

Edited March 11, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

(14/1 Walt is similar to Klein with supports considered. 1 less might and probably bow rank versus established supports with greater crit, acc and 1 more con which could allow him to use Steel where Klein could only double with silver. Outside of wyverns, the damage difference still could leave cavs in chapter 13 in single digits, of which anyone then could still mop-up, frm there on it's just Walt's slightly better growths).

14/1 Wolt loses 3.5 str to Klein, and he still loses 1.5 MT even with full supports and equal weaponry (that notion in itself is pretty hilarious, but that's beside the point). He also loses 1.4 spd (tying AS at best with heavier weapons) and actually loses spd growth. So you gave him all these resources (unit slot, supports, Orion's Bolt, more EXP than he deserves) and he's still outclassed by a free prepromote.

[Rewjeo]

Too lazy to read all of the supports stuff, but what I'd say is that he can reasonably grab a Roy support, but the move gap and gap in performance is too much for him to get a support with the cavs.

[Colonel M]

Ill read this when I get home, but just a fair warning Grandjackal: you know how much it pisses me off when I see "unit X is like unit Y" when there's a semblance of difference between the two or they're in different tiers for that matter.

Also, not to be a prick, but I have high doubts that Walt will be supporting Cavs. I'm having a hard enough time getting Roy to support them. I'm not saying Walt getting supports is totally out of the question, but at tops he might want something like B Lance and that's because the tradeoff is 5 Crit and 1 Atk for +1 Def. Granted, it seems completely inferior, but if we were to use Walt seriously I'd only give him a B with a Cav and that's about it. He can have the Roy support I guess so it makes some awkward square.

Keep in mind that I question how to "use" Walt (his role as an Archer is obvious), but Can he pull enough positives to be over Juuno, for example.

[grandjackal]

Ill read this when I get home, but just a fair warning Grandjackal: you know how much it pisses me off when I see "unit X is like unit Y" when there's a semblance of difference between the two or they're in different tiers for that matter.

You're right, perhaps I got a bit distracted from my original point. I apologize.

Also, not to be a prick, but I have high doubts that Walt will be supporting Cavs. I'm having a hard enough time getting Roy to support them. I'm not saying Walt getting supports is totally out of the question, but at tops he might want something like B Lance and that's because the tradeoff is 5 Crit and 1 Atk for +1 Def. Granted, it seems completely inferior, but if we were to use Walt seriously I'd only give him a B with a Cav and that's about it. He can have the Roy support I guess so it makes some awkward square.

...I originally said that if Walt's getting used, it's Roy and Lance, he would never take anything away from Allen. I just want to clear it up for the last time, Lance and Allen still A, Roy still Bs with Allen. Just Walt Bs with Lance and As with Roy.

I wouldn't call it "completely inferior" though, because I doubt 1 might is going to make or break Lance or Roy.

Keep in mind that I question how to "use" Walt (his role as an Archer is obvious), but Can he pull enough positives to be over Juuno, for example.

And this is where I got a bit distracted and drove off my main point: if bowmanship could be considered utility or no. Which case it would drive down to this, how many people do you have to do Walt's job at his time? Very few, or those that do are quite inaccurate at doing so, the best being Lou, who while doing more consistent damage (Walt gets hung up on armors and cavs), is not quite as able to attack those who could counter back, of which Walt has a few more possibilities due to his supports (or just instances in chapter 5, where a hand axer could just smoke Lou). Even things like cavs, Lou's 8 damage isn't gonna make much a difference alone so they both might as well chip at the same cav.

Juno joins at a time where flying utility is helpful for only 1 map, and you have plenty of other options by now to do the same, and are capable of not royally sucking at combat. There's...Not really much else to say, she's outclassed on arrival. Walt's at least got a time where he's unique in his function.

Take chapter 1, that example of helping Allen kill his own things while taking only 1 attack. This means I have more than Marcus to depend upon, and I can get Allen extra EXP through hit EXP. Could even justify a few kills for Walt, as whatever kills Walt would take (from Marcus of course), Allen can make up for it himself through hit EXP.

Not having to be entirely reliant on Marcus for chapter 1 seems a bit more positive than being on the sucking end of redundant late in the game where flying utility isn't even that huge a deal anymore.

Same could be said for the redundancy of Yodel and Cath, did not cost 10,000 to be a drop of water in a bucket. Boris? I'm not entirely sure actually...

Edited March 12, 2010 by Cait Sith

[dondon151]

Juno joins at a time where flying utility is helpful for only 1 map, and you have plenty of other options by now to do the same, and are capable of not royally sucking at combat. There's...Not really much else to say, she's outclassed on arrival. Walt's at least got a time where he's unique in his function.

There are 17 free deployment slots on chapter 21. Are you seriously implying that Juno will not be fielded? Completely bypassing each reinforcement zone can save you at least 2 turns for each group of reinforcements that you don't trigger.

Take chapter 1, that example of helping Allen kill his own things while taking only 1 attack. This means I have more than Marcus to depend upon, and I can get Allen extra EXP through hit EXP. Could even justify a few kills for Walt, as whatever kills Walt would take (from Marcus of course), Allen can make up for it himself through hit EXP.

Here's generally what happens:

Marcus runs forward with an Iron Sword and counters on enemy phase.

Alan, Lance, and Roy follow up with killing blows. If Alan or Lance are free, one of them picks up Roy.

Repeat. No Wolt needed. The only enemy that he's actually useful against is the archer, since Marcus will fail to counter it on enemy phase, and his chip damage might be significant. But that is all self-serving anyway, as the rest of the units can just pass up the archer while Wolt and Bors are bait.

Not having to be entirely reliant on Marcus for chapter 1 seems a bit more positive than being on the sucking end of redundant late in the game where flying utility isn't even that huge a deal anymore.

Coming from a person who's never exercised flying utility before, I wouldn't expect anything different.

Same could be said for the redundancy of Yodel and Cath, did not cost 10,000 to be a drop of water in a bucket. Boris? I'm not entirely sure actually...

Yodel's S staves is pretty cool. Holy Maiden is a very useful staff, and in all likelihood there will only be one other unit on the team that has S staves (Clarine). Saul and Ellen might not be used in the long run, and even Niime, who joins with A staves, needs quite a bit of usage to get to S. That said, S staves also has the benefit of having Warp access, and Warp is incredibly useful in endgame (though Niime is a better Warp user due to having 18 effective range as opposed to Yodel's 13).