FE6 HM Tier List

[CATS]

That, and I recall Knoll>L'arachel going quite a bit smoothly.

I recall people yelling at me for saying that L'Arachel shouldn't be used in most of her chapters, while Knoll can at least have cool summons in a few big lategame chapters. Maybe not, though.

Besides, this doesn't compare at all. Knoll at least actually HAD some unique form of utility that was never brought up or measured (Summoning). This is something between Wendy and Sophia to discuss who sucks less, and you chose Wendy. Choosing Wendy is like taking a cyanide pill, in hoping that it will kill you first before the opposition does. You can't win it.

I could probably win it in a community where everyone hated Sophia.

A utility unit is a unit that is very useful for a period of time before rapidly declining in ability. Utility units never have to build up to be good, so that's why they're assumed to be dropped.

You have to say more than just that, since by that definition, everyone is a utility unit. Even Wendy. She's just utility for an extremely small period of time (Ch 8) and the utility she provides during that time is extremely small, but still there. I'd rather say a utility unit is any unit who'll be used outside of their forced chapters.

[Dark Sage]

Sorry about the whole bumping thing, it was stupid. It's just that these FE6 tier topics usually stop around this point, so y'know. Plus I have no experience bumping and the rules for all of that stuff, and on other forums, people bump topics about the same time after the last post as I did. Or maybe I just didn't pay attention to the dates. Just forget it.

Also can we stop arguing Sophia vs Wendy? First it's pointless, second it's distracting, and third I want to hear GrandEclipse's questions answered. Arguing Wendy vs Sophia is like arguing whether or not hitting yourself in the nuts is better than stabbing yourself in the foot. What's the point?

Edited April 5, 2010 by Dark Sage

[CATS]

Complaining about how stupid it is to argue something is worse than actually arguing about it. Also notice how no one is actually arguing about Wendy vs Sophia anymore, and how GE's questions were indeed addressed (well, not the second one, but this community can't even make up its mind on the exact definition of "efficiency," so I don't expect GE to get a straight answer to his question there).

[Narga_Rocks]

Sorry about the whole bumping thing, it was stupid. It's just that these FE6 tier topics usually stop around this point, so y'know. Plus I have no experience bumping and the rules for all of that stuff, and on other forums, people bump topics about the same time after the last post as I did. Or maybe I just didn't pay attention to the dates. Just forget it.

Just don't do it again, basically. Bumping is effectively spam, so don't.

Also the tier topics have been necro'd before without any mods locking it, so I don't plan on locking any if people do necro a month later. Most topics you can't post in more than a month after the last post (well, you can, but we lock the topics and if you do it too much you get warned) but tier list topics seem to be treated differently.

[Dark Sage]

Ok, I think we might need an update on the tier list efficency rules, considering how, as you said CATS, no one can even make up their mind on the definition of efficency.

Since the first question was answered earlier, then the second question is what I had in mind.

Oh and regarding about the whole Sophia vs Wendy thing, I didn't know it was solved because you were still talking about it a couple of posts ago. While it wasn't in good form to insult the argument, I'm just sick of it, considering how other characters who don't completely suck, or important issues like Shin vs Gonzales keep getting glossed over in favor of Wendy vs Sophia.

[Narga_Rocks]

Ok, I think we might need an update on the tier list efficency rules, considering how, as you said CATS, no one can even make up their mind on the definition of efficency.

Since the first question was answered earlier, then the second question is what I had in mind.

Oh and regarding about the whole Sophia vs Wendy thing, I didn't know it was solved because you were still talking about it a couple of posts ago. While it wasn't in good form to insult the argument, I'm just sick of it, considering how other characters who don't completely suck, or important issues like Shin vs Gonzales keep getting glossed over in favor of Wendy vs Sophia.

Yeah, people have been talking about pushing shin into high for a while (at least in sacae) and I haven't seen anything against it. And sue up in sacae, too. But because of this Wendy vs sophia thing nothing has been happening for either thing.

And who doesn't want Lilina to fall a touch?

[Dat Nick]

And who doesn't want Lilina to fall a touch?

fanboys

I recall people yelling at me for saying that L'Arachel shouldn't be used in most of her chapters, while Knoll can at least have cool summons in a few big lategame chapters. Maybe not, though.

nah

that was your rennac to bottom tier argument, because we had to field l'arachel for one chapter

Edited April 5, 2010 by Detective Badd

[GreatEclipse]

My understanding of utility was always indirect benefits such as thief skills, healing, dancing, and rescuing. Basically anything besides attacking. In that sense, Marcus is no more a utility unit than Allen or Lance. If it includes combat units that outlive their usefulness before the end of the game, then Wolt is also a utility unit.

I ask the second question because if true, Karel, Yuno, Dayan and Yodel are far too low. They only require me to sacrifice optimal deployment for a few chapters, while someone like Treck is forcing out someone better for almost the entire game.

[Dark Sage]

I think for the most part, we should not say, this character sucks because he takes up a deployment slot for someone better. If we do that, we might as well drop half the tier list into bottom, because they take up deployment slots for someone better.

Oh and Lilina should fall 'till she breaks her neck.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Anouleth]

Why exactly is Lilina that high? Isn't she like Sanaki that joins underlevelled instead of at the right level, takes a deployment slot, and exists in a game where many enemies carry 1-2 range weapons?

Is Aircalibur vs Wyverns that useful?

[nflchamp]

My understanding of utility was always indirect benefits such as thief skills, healing, dancing, and rescuing. Basically anything besides attacking. In that sense, Marcus is no more a utility unit than Allen or Lance. If it includes combat units that outlive their usefulness before the end of the game, then Wolt is also a utility unit.

A "combat" utility unit is a unit that is only used to get through chapters until a better unit arrives. Basically, any unit who is immediately great at combat (eg. having the best combat on the team) but will fall behind if used for an extended period is a "combat" utility unit. They only ever were planned on being used to supplement the team until someone who could be used for an extended period came.

[-Cynthia-]

Why exactly is Lilina that high? Isn't she like Sanaki that joins underlevelled instead of at the right level, takes a deployment slot, and exists in a game where many enemies carry 1-2 range weapons?

Is Aircalibur vs Wyverns that useful?

I'm not sure what makes the units below her better though. Sure her durability sucks, but she can at least make accurate potshots and ORKO Generals and Wyvs and stuff. What does Barth ever do? I guess he's durable (although since he's getting doubled it's worse than people like Treck anyway), but he can barely hit and does shitty damage while doing so. He won't be getting the Knight's Crest anytime soon (lol screwing over Alan and Lance), so his good promo bonuses don't count for much.

If people want Lilina to drop, make a comparison, don't just go "Well her durability's bad and she's slow". She is in Lower Mid, so obviously she's going to have some issues. The question is how bad these issues are.

Edited April 6, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

Wasn't Lilina supposed to drop a while ago anyway? I thought it had already happened but it obviously hasn't.

[Reikken]

I considered utility to be...anything that makes a unit useful.

And who doesn't want Lilina to fall a touch?

fanboys

also me

Does that make me a fanboy? that might be pretty cool

Edited April 6, 2010 by Reikken

[GreatEclipse]

A "combat" utility unit is a unit that is only used to get through chapters until a better unit arrives. Basically, any unit who is immediately great at combat (eg. having the best combat on the team) but will fall behind if used for an extended period is a "combat" utility unit. They only ever were planned on being used to supplement the team until someone who could be used for an extended period came.

I understand the distinction between short-term and long-term team members. I simply fail to see the difference between Marcus and Wolt in that regard. Wolt is only useful until chapter 6, when a better unit can take his place. Forcing Wolt to deploy so can get destroyed in a direct comparison while allowing Marcus to bail is a double standard.

The rules claim that “non-utility” units as you define them are being used the entire game, so I want to know how you deal with limited unit slots. Karel being that low suggests one of two standards:

1) Maximum Efficiency (Karel is never used)

2) Gross Utility (Karel lacks the time to accomplish much)

Under the net system, Karel wins by default vs. anyone in the lower half of the list if you force them to deploy the entire game.

1) Using Karel in place of another, better unit hurts the team.

2) Using Treck in place of another, better unit hurts the team.

3) Treck forces out someone better for 15 chapters.

4) Karel forces out someone better for 1 or 2 chapters.

5) Using Karel hurts you less, thus Karel > Treck.

[-Cynthia-]

I assume Gross Utility. Don't forget that Karel is forced on C23 because he's recruited there so he only completes for a slot in C24. I guess he forces us field Fir/Bartre in C23, but we have a ton of deployment slots there anyway.

[GreatEclipse]

Yeah, I was accounting for the possibility Fir was raised or Bartre being deployed as filler when I said 1 or 2. Assuming gross makes Treck many magnitudes better than Karel, but I doubt the list is using it if he is only lower middle.

Edited April 6, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Reikken]

Also, I dunno guys. I think the triangle attack deserves serious consideration. You say lol fielding three combat failures, but are they really? When you can pull off one or two OHKs per turn. OHKing paladins and heroes at 100% accuracy (give Wendy a lolsteel lance for extra damage and have no worries about missing) sounds rather nice to me. as well as any boss open to attack on three sides (like every indoor map).

[GreatEclipse]

We have no combat rank to hurt, so why not gang up on them with three good combat units instead, who can also function independently of each other?

[Reikken]

because you won't be taking counterattacks, won't be using any rare weaponry, will succeed 100% of the time, and one or both of the other two are free to attack other units

[GreatEclipse]

If you want to avoid counters you could use someone like Shin or Lugh, who do not suck at attacking the other 90% of the time. Feel free to try it, but I looks so impractical. Simply getting the three to the enemy sounds like an enormous hassle when playing for a low turn count.

[grandjackal]

Also, I dunno guys. I think the triangle attack deserves serious consideration.

We have considered it. We have come to the conclusion that it is useless garbage, unless proven otherwise.

You say lol fielding three combat failures, but are they really?

...Yes, they are! Have you been under a rock?

When you can pull off one or two OHKs per turn.

Two units can't fit into one space, and in Wendy's case that OHKO is questionable even considering. Nevermind they are still assballs on enemy phase thanks to their shite accuracy and speed.

OHKing paladins and heroes at 100% accuracy (give Wendy a lolsteel lance for extra damage and have no worries about missing) sounds rather nice to me.

Numbers please?

as well as any boss open to attack on three sides (like every indoor map).

And who gets to those bosses first? Everyone else not an armor. Fine and dandy that they can, but if I can take care of it before the armors even show up...

We have no combat rank to hurt, so why not gang up on them with three good combat units instead, who can also function independently of each other?

Three good combat units that can also function independently of eachother? You seem to have the armors mixed up with three good combat units that can also function independently from eachother.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Cait Sith

[GreatEclipse]

I was saying, "Why waste three unit slots on Bors, Barth and Wendy so they can collectively kill one enemy, when I could field three units that are much better individually and have them gang up on that same enemy, then not suck when functioning independently."

Edited April 6, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Dark Sage]

Agreed with Cait Sith. Also LOL Wendy with Steel. Her avoid will fail even harder than before. You can't counter with triangle, and it's probable they might not even be able to do it in the first place, considering their, oh I don't know, 4 paltry movement since they can't catch up to their foes.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Dark Sage

[CATS]

I understand the distinction between short-term and long-term team members. I simply fail to see the difference between Marcus and Wolt in that regard. Wolt is only useful until chapter 6, when a better unit can take his place. Forcing Wolt to deploy so can get destroyed in a direct comparison while allowing Marcus to bail is a double standard.

The rules claim that “non-utility” units as you define them are being used the entire game, so I want to know how you deal with limited unit slots. Karel being that low suggests one of two standards:

1) Maximum Efficiency (Karel is never used)

2) Gross Utility (Karel lacks the time to accomplish much)

Under the net system, Karel wins by default vs. anyone in the lower half of the list if you force them to deploy the entire game.

1) Using Karel in place of another, better unit hurts the team.

2) Using Treck in place of another, better unit hurts the team.

3) Treck forces out someone better for 15 chapters.

4) Karel forces out someone better for 1 or 2 chapters.

5) Using Karel hurts you less, thus Karel > Treck.

And of course in response, someone says what they assume, rather than what the list assumes, because it's not clear what the list assumes. Like I said: The community can't make up its mind. Now, these points have been raised numerous times in the past, and no consensus was reached. The unofficial consensus, I believe, is to just apply whatever system of utility people like best for a particular match-up. Consistency inconveniently clashes with popular opinion on alot of issues, and is therefore discarded (as you've effectively indicated).