FE6 HM Tier List

[GreatEclipse]

I simply enjoy picking on him. And IIRC the starting position of Roy is actually the longer way.

[Dark Sage]

You're missing the point. It is the longer way indeed. But the way you argue about how horrible Treck's recruitment is, you could make one for Hugh, or Tate, or Klein, (who are not hard to recruit on your own, but you want that Orion's Bolt and Elysian Whip), but you don't.

Difficulty of recruitment is not considered. Recruitment is only penalized if it directly consumes a resources to a large degree (Sorry Hugh, 10K isn't quite worth the second best sage who comes late and without Aircalibur).

[Narga_Rocks]

I simply enjoy picking on him. And IIRC the starting position of Roy is actually the longer way.

If you are talking chapter 16 then I'd have to agree. Use fliers and other mounted units on the first turn to get Roy to go up the right side. Talks to Hugh and even if it isn't the fastest way to the throne, it is certainly not slower by more than like a turn. The benefit is that you can talk to Hugh this way. Besides, going to the secret shop probably costs turns already, so if we talk about those nice robes and/or extra promotion items that you can get for the 10000 it costs to recruit Hugh then obviously we shouldn't care if Hugh slows down Roy's path to the throne by a turn. (And if you can make it to the secret shop on the same turn Roy can first hit the throne, then a: that's amazing and b: if you can pull that off I highly doubt you can't manage to get Roy to talk to Hugh without costing a turn)

[Dat Nick]

It is not stated anywhere that his recruitment cost is accounted for

It doesn't say anywhere that Sue is as low as she is because of her strength stat.

Btw, I've beaten FE6 5 times and each time C9 has been the hardest. Fir and Shin down.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Detective Badd

[nflchamp]

That rule GE brought up is to stop silly arguments like:

Hugh costs us x amount of items in gold.

x amount of items is usually going to be taken over Hugh.

Hugh is only recruited 10% of the time.

Hugh to the bottom of the list since he rarely exists.

[frat_tastic]

There is absolutely no way that Treck's currently placement is taking into account any recruitment costs he may have, if it is considered to be so severe, which it probably isn't. His placement reflects where his position might be based on performance alone, as does everyone else AFAIK, except Hugh..

Edited April 7, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Dark Sage]

Speaking of which how does Treck perform anyway?

[frat_tastic]

I'd say probably at the position he's in now, upper end of lower-mid. He's about equal to Noah, who has a level lead for a while and has better supports (Anima affinity, Fir), while Treck has slightly better raw stats at the same level. Off the top of my head, but this is what I remember from forever ago, when Treck used to be in Upper-Mid and we actually compared him to Noah and found they were extremely similar.

[grandjackal]

Speaking of which how does Treck perform anyway?

More defense and luck than Noah (who's Anima can make up for both), worse sword rank, that's about the only difference outside of Noah's 1 Con. I'd say if Zealot is being used, I would think Treck would do just a sliiiight bit better in Sacae due to his support with Zealot. Zealot's already tough as is Treck, they both get what they want for Sacae, that being Crit+Acc, something Noah doesn't give. Since neither are gonna be doubling in Sacae, the Crit is quite useful to them both, as they both can counter nomads with little fear in the damage they do to them both.

Problem is, people lately have been severely overblowing the difficulty in recruiting Treck and saying it should count against them, when it's not relatively hard by any means. It's not like we're trying to recruit Xavier here.

[frat_tastic]

I think the point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that recruitment costs are being selectively deleted, whereas in the OP the rules state that all recruitment costs are to be deleted. Hugh's financial cost still stands, but Treck's difficult recruitment disapoofs, which is where the incosistency lies.

Exaggeration or not, Treck makes himself fairly difficult to recruit. He frequently likes to get himself killed, you have to rush your units over to those villages where stand a decent chance of getting killed, etc. Not the hardest thing in the game to do, but its certainly more difficult than basically anyone elses recruitment.

[grandjackal]

I think the point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that recruitment costs are being selectively deleted, whereas in the OP the rules state that all recruitment costs are to be deleted. Hugh's financial cost still stands, but Treck's difficult recruitment disapoofs, which is where the incosistency lies.

Oh, and Zealot being rockheadedly stupid is ignored. Sweet, because their AI is exactly the same. Zealot at times, when you DON'T rush to him, likes to charge for the Elfire mage and potentially get himself pretty badly injured by it, then rush the throne like a moron.

Treck might be stupid, but so is Zealot. I find rushing to their aid to be the only way to keep Zealot alive/from doing something stupid, so why does he get a free pass?

Exaggeration or not, Treck makes himself fairly difficult to recruit. He frequently likes to get himself killed, you have to rush your units over to those villages where stand a decent chance of getting killed, etc. Not the hardest thing in the game to do, but its certainly more difficult than basically anyone elses recruitment.

Fir requires we bring Noah to chapter 9 which is a waste of a unit slot, Klein and Tate could cause many restarts simply because they don't feel like moving, Echidna can get killed by the three fighters that start off surrounding her, yadda yadda.

If you're going to penalize, be consistent, or at least don't ignore the fact you could simply have Thany fly in and rescue to ensure death doesn't happen.

[Colonel M]

There was a reason I erased the recruitment cost, and it's mainly because that characters should be ranked on what they contribute after jointime. I can see how it can be seen as consistent with penalizing Hugh, but in the same vein it does sort of run a double standard with the rules I applied here.

I also find Treck useful to some extents in Chapter 7, and recruiting him by Turn 2 might as well happen. You're recruiting Zealot, who can then position himself on the forest near him to start the "barracade" and Treck can ferry Roy back to safety. Then Treck can visit the villages or help Rescue chains in the bottom portion of the map (which I have used). I didn't find Treck useless at all on this map, so even if I did place a recruitment cost, what he does provide in the chapter is still valuable to me since it means I can rush Saul up north, have Treck rescue him, and have someone else take him from Treck whereas I'd have to Rescue with Clarine possibly to keep him from danger. Lance and Allan are likely helping Marcus | Zealot | maybe Lot up north anyway.

[dondon151]

I've never had any problems recruiting Treck. Once you get the movements down, you can do it successfully every time.

I wouldn't consider Treck to be optimal deployment at any time during which he is available. His AS doesn't catch up to Noah's until after promotion, but more importantly, his bases are inferior, his sword rank is abysmal (he's not going to reach D swords by chapters 9-11, so have fun 4RKOing fighters), and whatever leads he has on Noah by lategame are trivial because he has been non-optimal during most of his existence.

At least Noah 3RKOs fighters using a Steel Sword (say at 10/0, 17 +1 atk against 39 HP, 5 def). And he has movement to top it off, and he's forced in chapter 9 if you want to recruit Fir.

[Colonel M]

Actually I can think of one chapter where Treck is close to Optimal Deployment, which would be Chapter 8 since he can ferry people and has the Movement to attempt to keep up with Marcus | Zealot.

[grandjackal]

Marcus, Zealot, Allen, Lance, Noah, Thany, Treck, Clarine, Sue. That's 9 slots, Roy makes 10. Many units are forced here (Ashtor, Lillina, the fail brigade), so there aren't many slots. How many units would actually need ferrying when we got this sort of army here? Roy, Ashtor, Chad if he was able to fit into the army.

If anything, it's more than just another person ferrying, Treck helps make it so we have to ferry less people, so less people having the rescue penalty, and less people having to do rescue drops.

[dondon151]

I would only field one of Treck or Thany, as with the abundance of mounted units, you can easily transport low-move, high offense units like Dieck or Rutger.

[Dark Sage]

Treck just seems to be a worse version of Noah. He has a slight edge on strength and defense (not at ALL like Alan huh?), but loses in supports, weapon ranks, starting level, you know the drill. He should be at least right below Noah, if he isn't already.

It used to be Treck was better because of Gonzales and Miledy support (ignoring they want other people, well maybe not Miledy), but this was proven false a while ago.

[Dat Nick]

lol @ going 1-2 turns out of the way to recruit Treck making him drop a tier

you kids and your blatant exaggeration of recruitment costs

Also, you can stop misrepresenting the issue. Nobody is saying Treck's recruitment cost doesn't exist, we're saying it's so small it doesn't affect his tier position at all. Say one day double cheeseburgers are $1 at Mcdonalds, then the next day they're $1.01. Sure, it's more expensive now, but 1 cent is really trivial, you know? This is kind of like that. I had a better analogy to this, but I forgot it.

but this was proven false a while ago.

If by a while, you mean around 3~ish years...Seriously, I can't remember a single time Treck was NOT below Noah.

Okay, here. This is even a 0% growth strategy. Here guys, lrn2FE and be amazed as you discover that you were the problem all along:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu1SI7-i180&feature=related

Edited April 7, 2010 by Detective Badd

[CATS]

So apparently recruitment costs are to be considered (and they're all meaningless except Hugh's), yet the rule quoted says that it is in place to delete recruitment costs. What I'm hearing clashes with what the rule says. Which one am I supposed to side with if I feel like making an argument where recruitment is relevant (i.e. an argument about Hugh, since it looks like everyone else's recruitment cost is effectively 0)?

There's also the fact that, as mentioned with Farina in FE7, the money you have to pay for Hugh could easily be considered a storyline event. It's unique to Hugh's character, it's a conversation, and it has nothing to do with his class or w/e.

Also, I'm seeing a lot of people griping about Treck's recruitment cost being exaggerated, though I don't see anyone arguing that he should move down or anything like that. Makes all that talk about "lol @ moving treck down because of recruitment" look pointless, even though you guys clearly want to make fun of the idea. I'll remedy the situation: Imo, Treck should go to bottom tier because of his recruitment. There you go, I'm exaggerating his recruitment cost; now you have someone to pick on.

Edited April 7, 2010 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

So apparently recruitment costs are to be considered (and they're all meaningless except Hugh's), yet the rule quoted says that it is in place to delete recruitment costs. What I'm hearing clashes with what the rule says. Which one am I supposed to side with if I feel like making an argument where recruitment is relevant (i.e. an argument about Hugh, since it looks like everyone else's recruitment cost is effectively 0)?

Treck's. Recruitment. Cost. Counts. Against. Him.

It simply just isn't relevant enough to change his tier position at all, because it's not as difficult as you like to make it out to be.

There's also the fact that, as mentioned with Farina in FE7, the money you have to pay for Hugh could easily be considered a storyline event. It's unique to Hugh's character, it's a conversation, and it has nothing to do with his class or w/e.

And it still costs gold to do, and it's still completely optional. No 10k, no Hugh. Complicate the issue all you want with shit like "storyline events" and "conversation" but at the end of the day, using Hugh will cost us 10k, which is a cost that actually matters. In order to use Treck, I need to rescue him with Thany and drop him near Roy or one of the other Ilia cavs. That isn't a cost that's going to change any tier positions.

Also, I'm seeing a lot of people griping about Treck's recruitment cost being exaggerated, though I don't see anyone arguing that he should move down or anything like that.

Then apparently you haven't read anybody's posts in this thread.

There is absolutely no way that Treck's currently placement is taking into account any recruitment costs he may have. His placement reflects where his position might be based on performance alone.

I've only got two and a half years tennis experience to my name, but it sounds to me like he's saying Treck should move down.

There you go, I'm exaggerating his recruitment cost; now you have someone to pick on.

Saying his recruitment cost is even worth anything is exaggerating it, so your joke is kind of backfiring.

See, the whole premise to your argument is that we're ignoring Treck's recruitment cost. Nobody is, it just simply isn't a relevant enough cost to be considered, so it does not affect his tier position. Likewise, it's certainly not the fault of anybody arguing that Treck's recruitment cost is basically meaningless that Hugh has one of the largest recruitment costs in the game, and it amounts to something that actually matters. I'm in full agreement of penalizing characters for recruitment cost, but only if the cost of recruitment actually amounts to anything notable. Somebody like, say, Bartre has a notable recruitment cost, Treck doesn't.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Detective Badd

[dondon151]

Easy way to remedy this is to change the rules.

[Dat Nick]

Said proposed rule:

<@zintat> "The recruitment cost of a unit is to be considered as using said unit will force said cost upon us. This does not reduce said unit's chance to be used, although if there is no intention of using that unit it is likely to be killed. It's also kindly asked that minor costs, such as recruiting Treck in C7, do not get blown out of proportion, at it is highly unlikely that small factor alone is going to bend any tier positions."

Colonel's response:

<&Colonel_M> Just post the rule. I'll do it later.

[CATS]

Treck's. Recruitment. Cost. Counts. Against. Him.

It simply just isn't relevant enough to change his tier position at all, because it's not as difficult as you like to make it out to be.

So the rule is wrong/should be ignored (according to you, at least). Noted. Out of curiosity, are there any other rules that I can ignore or disregard next time I want to make an argument?

And it still costs gold to do, and it's still completely optional. No 10k, no Hugh. Complicate the issue all you want with shit like "storyline events" and "conversation" but at the end of the day, using Hugh will cost us 10k, which is a cost that actually matters. In order to use Treck, I need to rescue him with Thany and drop him near Roy or one of the other Ilia cavs. That isn't a cost that's going to change any tier positions.

I'm not the one who originally brought up the idea of disregarding things that are classified as "storyline events," nor do I support that idea, so if you want to complain about it "complicating the issue" then go complain to whoever did come up with it. If you complain to me about it, I'll just nod my head in agreement.

However, as long as it's accepted, it needs to be applied consistently. Let's see here, what about Gonzales's recruitment?

It still requires Lilina to do it, and it's still completely optional. No Lilina, no Gonzales. Complicate the issue all you want with shit like "storyline events" and "conversation" but at the end of the day, using Gonzales will require us to make Lilina talk to him, which is an action that actually matters. In order to use Treck, I need to rescue him with Thany and drop him near Roy or one of the other Ilia cavs. That isn't a cost that's going to change any tier positions. (left these last two lines on here just for completion's sake, they're of course irrelevant to my point)

If we use your line of thinking, that "conversation" and "storyline events" are just meaningless semantics, then one would need to start accounting for actions like Lilina's recruitment of a powerful unit. Obviously, this line of thinking is absurd. The classifications of a "storyline event" are necessary to rule out such arguments and ensure that units are ranked based on how they actually perform and contribute when they're present. Hugh's recruitment clearly falls under the category of a storyline event; it is a character-unique conversation, exactly like Gonzales's recruitment (a "cutscene," if you will). It is not an attribute of his class, like Chad's stealing is simply a class ability and such, as other mage characters do not have this cost; in the same sense that Lilina's ability to recruit Gonzales is a character-specific (and therefore storyline-based) trait.

Counting the cost against Hugh simply isn't an accurate representation of his abilities, in the same way that placing Lilina into High Tier because she recruits Gonzales is not an accurate representation of her contributions.

Saying his recruitment cost is even worth anything is exaggerating it, so your joke is kind of backfiring.

It's not meaningless, though. Treck costs you 1-2 turns in Ch 7......and how many is he going to save in future chapters compared to Geese or w/e? If his recruitment cost were actually insignificant, he would need to be saving a large number of turns compared to the use of another unit, to the point that 1-2 turns don't mean anything. But is Treck actually going to save you 20 turns in the future compared to whatever other unit? Maybe against Wendy; outside of that, I think it's pretty clear that he's not going to save you that many turns at all compared to Geese or w/e. By itself, the number may appear small, but relative to the number of turns that Treck is actually saving you, his recruitment cost is certainly significant.

See, the whole premise to your argument is that we're ignoring Treck's recruitment cost. Nobody is, it just simply isn't a relevant enough cost to be considered, so it does not affect his tier position. Likewise, it's certainly not the fault of anybody arguing that Treck's recruitment cost is basically meaningless that Hugh has one of the largest recruitment costs in the game, and it amounts to something that actually matters. I'm in full agreement of penalizing characters for recruitment cost, but only if the cost of recruitment actually amounts to anything notable. Somebody like, say, Bartre has a notable recruitment cost, Treck doesn't.

You say it's just too small to matter; I say you're being selective and using that logic as a rationalization. What is the difference between not counting Treck's recruitment cost, and counting it but indicating that it's too small to ever affect anything at all? The only difference is that the latter has the illusion of a logical basis behind it, while the former makes no attempt to hide the fact that it's just an arbitrary provision.

Easy way to remedy this is to change the rules.

Indeed. Simply stating that recruitment costs will count would solve the issue, as people would then be able to belittle recruitment costs such as Treck's and thus make them meaningless, without directly contradicting the rules.

[-Cynthia-]

It actually doesn't say recruitment costs are deleted, just that units are assumed to be used. True it says underneath that that this eliminates recruitment costs, but that's a logical leap. Really that statement is intended to avoid "we are only fielding optimal deployment, thus other units are only tiered based on join chapter".

[dondon151]

It's not meaningless, though. Treck costs you 1-2 turns in Ch 7......and how many is he going to save in future chapters compared to Geese or w/e?

I doubt Treck's cost can be easily quantified. I would actually posit that he costs no turns whatsoever, as Thany's combat contributions aren't going to be missed, and neither will Roy's for the most part.

Geese is not a good example either, as he requires Roy to lag behind to recruit him, but Roy can be rescue chained through half the map by then, so it's also a non-issue.