FE6 HM Tier List

[grandjackal]

Has no one thought that you need Treck to get Malte anyways? I know I reember not having gone to the Malte chapter though I went Ilia, and the pegasus knights were alive and recruited. Only factor missing was that Treck was dead.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Mekkah]

Fact check.

Please.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe6/sidequests.htm

Complete Chapter 20A within 25 turns. Juno and Zealot must be alive

[Dark Sage]

The thing about Hugh CATS is that his recruitment doesn't just take away 1-4 turns, it takes 1-4 turns AND 10K. 1-4 turns is easily compensated. 10K, not so much. 10K can be used to buy Angelic robes, speedwings, or energy rings to boost your units. Hugh cheats you out of that for a mediocre chipper.

Also if we're going to go buy your ideas about recruitment, the tier list will be highly inaccurate. For instance, we'll have debates like Sophia>Treck or Wendy>Zealot, which is not true at all. The paladin and potential paladin have more to offer and more contributions then those miserable failures Wendy and Sophia, yet if we choose to go along with your logic about recruitment, the whole tier list will turn into an availability contest, which means that actual contributions will be ignored.

I don't want to sound harsh, but the goal of this tier list if to accurate as well as fun, and I just disagree with you. But if I get anything wrong about your view in this post, please tell me.

[Dat Nick]

o the rule is wrong/should be ignored (according to you, at least). Noted. Out of curiosity, are there any other rules that I can ignore or disregard next time I want to make an argument?

Holy mother of fuckballs. What part of "his recruitment cost is already factored, it just doesn't change anything because the cost is barely significant" do you not get?

wall of text comparing gonzales's recruitment cost to hugh's recruitment cost

Needing to field Lilina for one chapter sucks infinity billion times less than coughing up 10k, post-silver card. So no, I'm not going to try and argue that the negative utility doesn't exist, because it does, it's just relatively minor. Again, Gonzales's recruitment cost is already factored against him, but it's so easy to recruit him that it barely amounts to a cost. You really need to grasp this concept before arguing against it. This is not your FE9 tier list that assumes the player is mentally handicapped.

It's not meaningless, though.

It's close enough.

You say it's just too small to matter; I say you're being selective and using that logic as a rationalization. What is the difference between not counting Treck's recruitment cost, and counting it but indicating that it's too small to ever affect anything at all?

Call it whatever you want. But the impact of Treck's recruitment is minor enough that it will not cause him to budge an inch on the tier list. And until you can find a way to prove otherwise, I highly suggest you stop wasting everybody's time.

[Narga_Rocks]

Echidna can get killed by the three fighters that start off surrounding her, yadda yadda.

Maybe I just suck (possible, since I've only played this chapter once on HM and once on NM) but I have more issues preventing Klein's allys from getting attacked by these guys than anything else. I have to basically either surround this area or pick up Klein's buddies to prevent them getting attacked by the three units that spawn. And then they usually don't attack Echidna because there are a bunch of tier 1 units available to attack anyway. In two completed playthroughs of this chapter (and a few failed attempts) I don't think Echidna has been attacked even once. I don't mean successfully. I mean at all.

I don't want to sound harsh, but the goal of this tier list if to accurate as well as fun, and I just disagree with you. But if I get anything wrong about your view in this post, please tell me.

It's tough to know just what his actual view of things is. He plays Devil's Advocate so very often that to be honest I don't think even I know what he actually thinks about any of it. Note I'm not saying there is anything necessarily wrong with playing Devil's Advocate, I'm just saying that attempting to argue possible ramifications of other ideas regardless of what he thinks about those conclusions makes it difficult for others to know what he really thinks.

In other words, I'm positive you got a lot wrong about his "views". I'd instead ask if you got anything wrong about his "argument".

Needing to field Lilina for one chapter sucks infinity billion times less than coughing up 10k, post-silver card. So no, I'm not going to try and argue that the negative utility doesn't exist, because it does, it's just relatively minor. Again, Gonzales's recruitment cost is already factored against him, but it's so easy to recruit him that it barely amounts to a cost. You really need to grasp this concept before arguing against it. This is not your FE9 tier list that assumes the player is mentally handicapped.

Urg. Please stop misrepresenting him. And the list. It's a little annoying. First off, the player is not mentally handicapped, just not as good as people like dondon. (seriously, those fe6 videos are pretty amazing. Especially things like his chapter 24 where he one or two turns each throne-room, yeesh)

Not to mention, he didn't even choose the imperfection himself.

If you don't like this premise, you don't have to post in this topic. And I didn't come up with this condition, others thought of it, they just all pointed at me to post the list and make edits. PM Reikken if you care that much about it.

and

If it were up to me, I would have the tier list assume that the player is entirely competent and has played the game many times (i.e. will have a memory of where stuff is, what's coming next and thus what he needs to prepare for, etc), but simply that they have only the manual and the tutorial available to them. The conditions would then be about what a perfect player would do with limited information, rather than having to try and figure out what sort of mistakes an imperfect player might make.

Others were insistent that the player's tactical capacities be imperfect, though, so meh. Since the other people who originally discussed the list don't seem to even be following the topic anymore, I'd be willing to change the premises if alot of people wanted some sort of change (which seems to be the case). But if folks want the premises changed, hopefully they'll be willing to start actually discussing the list afterwards. It'll be pretty lame if I change something and then people still refuse to actually discuss any of the positions.

I can understand not liking him since he typically goes against the grain, but the misrepresenting is irritating and I'm sure it all serves to make him post even more things that annoy us.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[CATS]

It actually doesn't say recruitment costs are deleted, just that units are assumed to be used. True it says underneath that that this eliminates recruitment costs, but that's a logical leap. Really that statement is intended to avoid "we are only fielding optimal deployment, thus other units are only tiered based on join chapter".

It actually does say recruitment costs are deleted. It's not as if the rule was quoted and something was then inferred; all that was done was a direct quotation of the rule. Of course, it has now been appropriately changed, so it no longer matters.

Holy mother of fuckballs. What part of "his recruitment cost is already factored, it just doesn't change anything because the cost is barely significant" do you not get?

So you're saying there's no other rules we'd be allowed to contradict? Thanks; also noted.

Needing to field Lilina for one chapter sucks infinity billion times less than coughing up 10k, post-silver card. So no, I'm not going to try and argue that the negative utility doesn't exist, because it does, it's just relatively minor. Again, Gonzales's recruitment cost is already factored against him, but it's so easy to recruit him that it barely amounts to a cost. You really need to grasp this concept before arguing against it. This is not your FE9 tier list that assumes the player is mentally handicapped.

You really need to grasp what I'm saying before you attempt to address it. I said nothing about Gonzales's recruitment cost. Please read again, very carefully this time, since it looks like the point went over your head the first time you read it, despite being stated very explicitly:

Counting the cost against Hugh simply isn't an accurate representation of his abilities, in the same way that placing Lilina into High Tier because she recruits Gonzales is not an accurate representation of her contributions.

If characters are not allowed to benefit from recruitment or seizing actions because they are considered "storyline events," then Hugh's recruitment cost should not penalize him, under the same line of reasoning.

Call it whatever you want. But the impact of Treck's recruitment is minor enough that it will not cause him to budge an inch on the tier list. And until you can find a way to prove otherwise, I highly suggest you stop wasting everybody's time.

You'll notice that I did post a passage about that. Unsurprisingly, you ignored it. Don't feel obligated to respond, though, I'm well aware that I probably won't be able to change your mind on the subject anyways.

The thing about Hugh CATS is that his recruitment doesn't just take away 1-4 turns, it takes 1-4 turns AND 10K. 1-4 turns is easily compensated. 10K, not so much. 10K can be used to buy Angelic robes, speedwings, or energy rings to boost your units. Hugh cheats you out of that for a mediocre chipper.

The magnitude of the cost is irrelevant to my point. It could only cost 1G to recruit Hugh and my point would be the same.

Also if we're going to go buy your ideas about recruitment, the tier list will be highly inaccurate. For instance, we'll have debates like Sophia>Treck or Wendy>Zealot, which is not true at all. The paladin and potential paladin have more to offer and more contributions then those miserable failures Wendy and Sophia, yet if we choose to go along with your logic about recruitment, the whole tier list will turn into an availability contest, which means that actual contributions will be ignored.

I don't want to sound harsh, but the goal of this tier list if to accurate as well as fun, and I just disagree with you. But if I get anything wrong about your view in this post, please tell me.

I didn't say recruitment arguments should be accepted. I'm saying that it misrepresents Hugh's contributions to hold that 10K against him, in the same way that it misrepresents Lilina's contributions to hold her recruitment of Gonzales as a point in her favor, or in the same way that it misrepresents Roy's contributions to hold seizing in his favor. All of the above are clearly storyline events and should thus be disregarded.

I've had Echidna get attacked every time I've played that chapter. 3 hand axe fighters spawn right next to her, they get to move before you can do anything to them, and Echidna spawns with a steel axe so they like to attack her. I've never had her die though, and you could probably distract them with some low Hp/Def melee units in range.

[FionordeQuester]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Lilina was as good at doubling enemies as Lugh is, she would be even more useful than him right?

[Dat Nick]

First off, the player is not mentally handicapped, just not as good as people like dondon.

There's not good as dondon, and there's not knowing how to recruit Astrid.

I said nothing about Gonzales's recruitment cost.

Yes, you did.

Counting the cost against Hugh simply isn't an accurate representation of his abilities, in the same way that placing Lilina into High Tier because she recruits Gonzales is not an accurate representation of her contributions.

Of course you don't credit Lilina for Gonzales's contributions, because then why would you tier Gonzales in the first place? Lilina already gets credit for everything he does and more, so Gonzales does not get any credit for what he does.

To gain access to Hugh's abilities, you need to pay a hefty sum. It makes much more sense to penalize Hugh for what he costs so we can get him than to tier Lilina for both Lilina's contributions and Gonzales.

If characters are not allowed to benefit from recruitment or seizing actions because they are considered "storyline events," then Hugh's recruitment cost should not penalize him, under the same line of reasoning.

Except Hugh's "storyline event" comes with negative utility that can be avoided altogether.

Seconds, seize isn't tiered because Roy autotopping the list for Seize is a retarded argument.

You'll notice that I did post a passage about that. Unsurprisingly, you ignored it.

No, all you did was briefly talk about Geese. You didn't delve into anything at all.

And you also ignored that Geese probably takes about the same amount of time to recruit, since he doesn't just walk towards you like Clarine.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Detective Badd

[CATS]

There's not good as dondon, and there's not knowing how to recruit Astrid.

Since, as we all know, the tier list's conditions explicity stated that the player is a retard. We also know that that tier list (and said condition of it) were invented entirely by me, and that I should hold all credit for the abomination known as "my" FE9 List. Furthermore, this is very clearly relevant to the current discussion, and certainly wasn't brought up to pointlessly insult CATS, but rather because it has clear implications regarding the point at hand.

And how do we know all this? Because the good man BBlade has told us; thank you for enlightening me, good sir. You provide accurate and relevant points, as always.

Edited April 7, 2010 by CATS

[Narga_Rocks]

Since, as we all know, the tier list's conditions explicity stated that the player is a retard. We also know that that tier list (and said condition of it) were invented entirely by me, and that I should hold all credit for the abomination known as "my" FE9 List. Furthermore, this is very clearly relevant to the current discussion, and certainly wasn't brought up to pointlessly insult CATS, but rather because it has clear implications regarding the point at hand.

And how do we know all this? Because the good man BBlade has told us; thank you for enlightening me, good sir. You provide accurate and relevant points, as always.

There's a reason I want it to stop. Funny though your sarcastic post is, I'm hoping people will stop attributing that list entirely to you rather than continue the cycle of insults. I realize my post included some late edits, but I'm hoping those two quotes from you in my other post are enough that people should stop insulting you for something that wasn't even your idea.

(And the cost of Gonzales's recruitment is actually another possible implication of your other post, minus a few words in your post. It's also more along the lines of the cost of Treck's recruitment and thus more applicable to the topic at hand. Applying a cost to recruitment and awarding units for recruiting others are two separate things, though I admit that there is a somewhat reasonable argument to connect the two.)

Edited April 7, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Dat Nick]

Since, as we all know, the tier list's conditions explicity stated that the player is a retard.

When you don't tier Astrid or bottom tier her (I don't remember which one it was) because the player doesn't know how to recruit her? Yeah. It kinda does.

Furthermore, this is very clearly relevant to the current discussion, and certainly wasn't brought up to pointlessly insult CATS, but rather because it has clear implications regarding the point at hand.

Alright. I admit it. That was an insult more than an actual point. But you know something? At least I make an actual point from time to time. When was the last time you had an actual point to make? I don't think you've ever had one, ever. In all the time I've known you, you've always been far more interested in bringing up trivial arguments that carry on for about 20~ pages rather than making points that actually prove anything. And you're doing it again right now. You know this recruitment cost bollocks isn't going to change a goddamn thing on the tier list and here you are arguing with me over whether the correct definition of Treck's recruitment cost not impacting his tier position is a result of us not caring and contradicting the rules or if it's actually so trivial that it really doesn't have an impact on anything.

You really piss me off, you know that?

Edited April 7, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Rodykitty]

Urg. Please stop misrepresenting him. And the list. It's a little annoying. First off, the player is not mentally handicapped, just not as good as people like dondon.

This has nothing to do with CATS' FE9 tier list, but I want to say that, in the FEDS tier list, the bar for what characters can do was raised every time someone made a new playthrough that demonstrated skill + what characters could do, the latter being the important part.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Let's change the topic a bit. How is Cath 3 tiers below the other thieves? Astohl only has 5 1/2 chapters more than Cath while Chad has 5 more than Astohl, yet they are one space apart. Sure Cath's combat sucks, but so does Chad's, and combat is not what either of them should be doing anyway; chests don't attack.

[Narga_Rocks]

This has nothing to do with CATS' FE9 tier list, but I want to say that, in the FEDS tier list, the bar for what characters can do was raised every time someone made a new playthrough that demonstrated skill + what characters could do, the latter being the important part.

It's not CATS' list. It's more Reikken + Crimson Edge + Andrew W.K. + Paperblade than CATS'. In fact, I think he hasn't even played fe9 so why would it be his list? (or maybe it was fe10 he hasn't played. I think either, actually. Whatever)

But yeah, as people show more ability and knowledge, things change. As people realize that you can go faster/do better if you aren't constantly building +1/1 supports to A supports things change about a list. However, that doesn't really affect Treck's position. Unless people go around beating chapter 7 in fewer turns by letting Treck die than the best player (without rng abusing) can beat chapter 7 while recruiting him, I'd have to argue that there is not a turn-based opportunity cost for recruiting him, making it much easier for him to overcome any opportunity cost you want to place on his recruitment (like slowing down Thany and Roy's exp gains and Thany's wexp gains if you care about that type of thing).

[Florete]

This is very minor but it bugs me every time I want to check the lists; why are they at the end of that huge first post? Any chance we can get them at the top? I just don't want to scroll through a bunch of stuff I already know when I need to check something is all.

[Colonel M]

When I get home, Ill explain why I made the rule with cancelling the recruitment cost (my original rule, perse).

[Rodykitty]

However, that doesn't really affect Treck's position. Unless people go around beating chapter 7 in fewer turns by letting Treck die than the best player (without rng abusing) can beat chapter 7 while recruiting him, I'd have to argue that there is not a turn-based opportunity cost for recruiting him, making it much easier for him to overcome any opportunity cost you want to place on his recruitment (like slowing down Thany and Roy's exp gains and Thany's wexp gains if you care about that type of thing).

Every character to recruit has some sort of opportunity cost. It is just rare that a unit's opportunity cost for recruitment actually prevents being able to give characters a bunch of items they would be assumed to be getting otherwise (like the issue for Hugh).

Which is why people find it okay to ignore costs of recruitment for most characters despite seeming inconsistent because it is 90% of the time inconsequential to shifting tier positions.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Ilyana

[FionordeQuester]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Lilina was as good at doubling enemies as Lugh is, she would be even more useful than him right?

[Narga_Rocks]

Every character to recruit has some sort of opportunity cost. It is just rare that a unit's opportunity cost for recruitment actually prevents being able to give characters a bunch of items they would be assumed to be getting otherwise (like the issue for Hugh).

Which is why people find it okay to ignore costs of recruitment for most characters despite seeming inconsistent because it is 90% of the time inconsequential to shifting tier positions.

But cats' argument is that if you apply an opportunity cost to Hugh's recruitment then you should be giving credit to any unit that recruits another unit (and presumably give credit to units that make it possible to visit various gaiden chapters, including Nino in fe7). I disagree for various reasons already mentioned by me and others, but it is one possible conclusion of the ramifications of applying a monetary opportunity cost to recruiting Hugh and Farina. It's just that there are other possible conclusions to make as well that don't result in Priscilla jumping up to her own tier just below Hector in seize-tier due to recruiting Raven and being pretty good herself.

(@FionordeQuester: I think people have stopped talking about Lilina and Hugh and Lugh)

[FionordeQuester]

Well, yeah, but I just want to know.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Well, yeah, but I just want to know.

The simple answer is likely yes. Doubling + her MAG is pretty serious damage, probably ORKOing things Lugh can't.

[Don Draper]

I don't really know why CATS intentionally tries to make sure that nothing gets accomplished in every tier list he posts in. He argues points just for the sake of arguing, picking apart the smallest details and constantly bringing up stupid arguments about what efficiency is, etc. Any tier list that CATS posts in is sure to have 20+ pages of nothing getting accomplished. All while saying "Indeed" 10 times per page.

Sorry that came off as a bit of a rant, but reading through this thread has been borderline painful with some of CATS' posts. I truly miss when we could argue character vs. character instead of trying to define efficiency every other page.

Edited April 8, 2010 by IOS

[Florete]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Lilina was as good at doubling enemies as Lugh is, she would be even more useful than him right?

It would definitely be up for debate, but there's still the matter of her poor durability. Higher Spd for more avoid would obviously help and getting a support with Gonzales might help, but Lugh still likely beats her in that area pretty easily. Given this game's setup and Lugh's own not-exactly-great durability, I'm inclined to say she'd win for her offense.

Also, this may have been missed because it was the last post on the page (somehow...I could swear it was at the top when I posted it) so I'll re-post.

This is very minor but it bugs me every time I want to check the lists; why are they at the end of that huge first post? Any chance we can get them at the top? I just don't want to scroll through a bunch of stuff I already know when I need to check something is all.

[Rodykitty]

But cats' argument is that if you apply an opportunity cost to Hugh's recruitment then you should be giving credit to any unit that recruits another unit (and presumably give credit to units that make it possible to visit various gaiden chapters, including Nino in fe7). I disagree for various reasons already mentioned by me and others, but it is one possible conclusion of the ramifications of applying a monetary opportunity cost to recruiting Hugh and Farina. It's just that there are other possible conclusions to make as well that don't result in Priscilla jumping up to her own tier just below Hector in seize-tier due to recruiting Raven and being pretty good herself.

The solution to the monetary cost of Hugh is... "Does it matter?" Is it really bad enough that it will actually change his tier position? That is the question that will decide things, not CATS' attempts to alter tier standards every time an issue comes up.

Most character opportunity costs exist, but don't really matter much. The army as a team all works towards recruiting characters, not just the person that talks to him/her.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Ilyana

[Dat Nick]

Is it really bad enough that it will actually change his tier position?

How in the hell would 10k NOT change his tier position?