FE6 HM Tier List

[grandjackal]

Got a couple thoughts though, all involving Sacae.

-Lou to lower mid? Sure he's not as easy t kill as Lillina or Ray, but 3HKO while still getting displayed crit is an invitation to death. He's still not that much better, and like the other mages, he's needed to be trained from a weak start only to run head first into Sacae. Perhaps below Cecilia, as she at least has staff rank to give her an excuse to be there.

-Hue up in Sacae, unless his cost is something he can never get over, simply because he's able to perform well for when the nomads show up (hits harder than Lou, neither are doubling, Hue gets 5RKOd which is astoundingly better). If one can get over his cost, just bottom of lower mid. If not, nevermind this point.

-Sue's position? Above Garret in the least

-Bartre up in Sacae, as his support with Fir at an estimated level 6 sees to it that he gets 5RKOd (11+1 Def and 51.5 HP vs 18 ATK and doubling), along with 18 crit evade to ensure he cannot be crit. To compare, Echidna has a less accurate response (Bows vs HAnd Axes), 4RKOd (38 HP, 8 Def), and has about 8 displayed crit on her thanks to her astoundingly shitty luck. While she still outperforms him beforehand due to doubling with killers outdoing his one mighty attack, he would at least perform better here (as she's nt doubling either), while able to do somewhat better in Bern (plop on mountain, give him Armads), and probably could muster an excuse in comparison to Echidna in chapter 22 he could muster possibly killerbows with Fir support to help kill speedy common heroes.

Not saying Echidna's level, there'd still be a tier's difference. Just, he has a notable advantage at least in Sacae, as to get him a tier closer in the Sacae list.

-This is probably my weakest thought, but I'm wondering how Treck, Noah and Zealot would perform in Sacae. Both are tough enough that they could shrug off the fact that they're doubled, they have eachother to support and all have crit-evade affinities so crit should not be a problem. They would have additional crit, so that helps make up for not doubling. Only problem I guess would be acc, where even supported they'd generally have 50-60 acc with a hand axe, about low 60s with a javelin.

But could one give the a bit more leeway here, as very few would actually be doubling here? You need to be like...Lance, Rutger, Fir and a winged Percival, who's acc is about 10 points worse thanks to their supports, and lacks the crit.

Bleh. Just trying to start conversation I guess.

[Narga_Rocks]

I agree with the difficulty of giving Ray the second Guiding Ring since there's Lugh, Clarine, and Saul/Ellen (who are meh post promotion but anyway). However, we can just promote him in Ch16 anyway.

Ray's Hit isnt that bad. 20/1 Ray with B Lugh has 113 Hit with Nosferatu. Ch16 Paladins have 32 Avo or so (and they're promoted so they're on the dodgier side) etc, so Ray still has true Hit rates in the 80-90 range, which isn't too bad.

I guess Ray's hit is worse before Lugh support/promo, but enemies also have lower Avo.

Ray's hit is fine if all you want is another unit attacking. Lots of units are in the 80s. Depending on the weapon used some are even lower. Especially Gonzales. Even with killers it's 70s at best. But if you want him Nosferatanking, anything less than 90% is really bad, and anything less than 100% is still annoying. 95% to be safe, really. I don't even let Julia Resire-tank unless I have Celice and Delmud within 3 squares.

Hugh's recruitment isnt as bad as I thought I suppose, given the Funds situation. He could probably move up a tier.

I'd still rather keep liquid funds at a minimum. Buy a stack of killing edges and bows and lances in chapter 13. At least 5 of each. Possibly more. Then put a lot of the money into robes in chapter 16. Just because a bunch of units don't necessarily need robes, it is still better to have them. Lalum, Clarine, Thany, Roy. Okay, you get two earlier, but there are still more units to get them.

(Colonel M: if you ever play after chapter 16 and think for even a second: "gee, I wish this unit could take another hit", then you could have given that unit a robe if it doesn't already have 60 hp.)

[CATS]

But cats' argument is that if you apply an opportunity cost to Hugh's recruitment then you should be giving credit to any unit that recruits another unit (and presumably give credit to units that make it possible to visit various gaiden chapters, including Nino in fe7). I disagree for various reasons already mentioned by me and others, but it is one possible conclusion of the ramifications of applying a monetary opportunity cost to recruiting Hugh and Farina.

Out of curiosity, what are the reasons, since I don't see how it's different? I don't remember seeing them, but I could've easily just missed them or something.

There's a reason I want it to stop. Funny though your sarcastic post is, I'm hoping people will stop attributing that list entirely to you rather than continue the cycle of insults. I realize my post included some late edits, but I'm hoping those two quotes from you in my other post are enough that people should stop insulting you for something that wasn't even your idea.

Yes, that would be nice. I'd rather stay civil myself, but after a certain amount of irrelevant and misplaced insults (not to mention accusations of trolling and etc), that becomes difficult.

@ all the usual accusations of trolling:

Depends on your definition of "trolling." If by "trolling," you mean posting things that alot of people disagree with or dislike, then yes, I'm obviously trolling. Beyond that, no. If you'd rather that I stop posting simply because you dislike seeing the things that I argue about, then place a rule into the OP that says "You may be asked to stop posting if, and purely because, many people feel that you're disrupting discussion," and I'll be happy to quit posting.

@ accusations of de-railing:

I'm not trying to stop you from discussing characters, and I don't see how my posts prevent you from doing so. Likewise, I don't see how discussion of tier list rules and standards isn't clearly relevant to said tier list topic, so I'm going to claim that my posts aren't pointless or w/e, as well. If you really want to talk about characters instead of rules, that's fine; go talk about characters and ignore the posts about rules. If that's how you feel, then I completely fail to understand why you'd respond by complaining about the rules discussion while not discussing characters.

I don't really know why CATS intentionally tries to make sure that nothing gets accomplished in every tier list he posts in. He argues points just for the sake of arguing, picking apart the smallest details and constantly bringing up stupid arguments about what efficiency is, etc. Any tier list that CATS posts in is sure to have 20+ pages of nothing getting accomplished. All while saying "Indeed" 10 times per page.

Sorry that came off as a bit of a rant, but reading through this thread has been borderline painful with some of CATS' posts. I truly miss when we could argue character vs. character instead of trying to define efficiency every other page.

Indeed, I'd rather not argue about such things, either. Notice that I made a "Normal Efficiency" topic to try and reach a definition for it. I don't think I can be blamed for the fact that no consensus was reached; if I could've forced people to agree on a clear definition, I certainly would've done so. Perhaps you're still eager to argue characters under this now-unknown set of standards, but I'd rather not be attacked just because I don't feel the same way.

When you don't tier Astrid or bottom tier her (I don't remember which one it was) because the player doesn't know how to recruit her? Yeah. It kinda does.

You would have to take that up with someone else; I didn't come up with that position, and clearly someone did feel that Astrid could take that position without the assumption of a retarded player, since the list quite clearly did not assume said retarded player. If you disagree with Astrid's position, that only means that Astrid should move; I don't see how it means that the conditions of the list are lying to you. If I saw Seth in low tier on an FE8 list, my first response would be to post a "Seth Should Go Up" argument, not to complain that the list clearly assumes that characters with red hair can't be above low tier, or some other non-existent condition.

Alright. I admit it. That was an insult more than an actual point. But you know something? At least I make an actual point from time to time. When was the last time you had an actual point to make? I don't think you've ever had one, ever.

Well, we can go back to my List of Ridiculous Arguments in response to this.

Wendy > Sophia

Nino > Pent (these two were fairly weak points though)

Cain > Hardin

Chainey --> Upper Mid

Marcus --> High Tier

Knoll > L'Arachel

Rennac --> Bottom Tier

You can complain that they're all ridiculous, but I think they quite clearly qualify as trying to make a point, ridiculous or not. Then there's the arguments which were actually accepted (Marcus --> High Tier would probably belong in this category now)......

Dozla > Ross

Rebecca > Lyn

Zealot > Lugh

Canas and Lucius closer together

Julian up (iirc he ended up rising like 2 or 3 spaces as a result of my posts)

Erk > Guy

Shiida > Merric (this being before people discovered that PK Shiida is clearly top tier)

Hawkeye > Dart (never accepted, but I posted it like 3 times and no one responded, so I guess I'll throw it in here)

Innes > Garcia

Forde > Saleh

There's probably more arguments in both categories, that's just what I recall off the top of my head. Either way, I strongly disagree with your statement. You might say that I haven't had too many points to make more recently, but that's only because I'm not sure how to make a point anymore. It's difficult to know how to argue a point when you don't know what you're arguing about, as has been the case since it became clear that no one could define "efficiency" any longer (although some people act like they know what it is, they haven't shared their apparent knowledge with the forum, so meh). I would probably go back to arguing characters if the standards for arguing characters were made clear; but just as some people feel that it's pointless to talk about rules instead of characters, I feel that it's pointless to talk about characters if you don't know what the rules are.

[grandjackal]

Right.

So, may I try to restart now relevent discussion with the points made a couple posts up?

[-Cynthia-]

Shin, and Sue to an extent can also double in Sacae (Sue has Con issues).

Lugh doesn't have much better concrete durability than Ray, at least if they're equally leveled (and I don't see Lugh getting too many kills earlygame since he doesn't hit that hard). for example 15/0 Lugh has 23 HP 5.1 Def, 15/0 Ray has 25 HP 5.45 Def. Lugh is slightly dodgier I guess, but Ray's Nosferatu makes him quite a bit more durable.

I'm not seeing how Bartre is better in Sacae. Axe user against sword users and dodgy bowmen doesn't make his offense very good. Echidna can switch to Killing Edges for more accuracy/ WTN. Bartre could use bows I guess, though I'm not sure we've used bows enough with him up to this point to get to C.

Edited April 8, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Lugh doesn't have much better concrete durability than Ray, at least if they're equally leveled (and I don't see Lugh getting too many kills earlygame since he doesn't hit that hard). for example 15/0 Lugh has 23 HP 5.1 Def, 15/0 Ray has 25 HP 5.45 Def. Lugh is slightly dodgier I guess, but Ray's Nosferatu makes him quite a bit more durable.

Ignoring Ray's shit luck versus these guys with short bows who double him...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This is probably my weakest thought, but I'm wondering how Treck, Noah and Zealot would perform in Sacae. Both are tough enough that they could shrug off the fact that they're doubled, they have eachother to support and all have crit-evade affinities so crit should not be a problem. They would have additional crit, so that helps make up for not doubling. Only problem I guess would be acc, where even supported they'd generally have 50-60 acc with a hand axe, about low 60s with a javelin.

How far would their supports get?

@ all the usual accusations of trolling:

Depends on your definition of "trolling." If by "trolling," you mean posting things that alot of people disagree with or dislike, then yes, I'm obviously trolling. Beyond that, no. If you'd rather that I stop posting simply because you dislike seeing the things that I argue about, then place a rule into the OP that says "You may be asked to stop posting if, and purely because, many people feel that you're disrupting discussion," and I'll be happy to quit posting.

I think that by trolling, it's the nitpicking (too much) you keep doing even when it's unnecessary, like with the recruitment cost rule. Honestly was it necessary to nitpick about that? It's like the possibility of the rule changing just passed by and you ignored it. You jump at every chance to complain and nitpick about something, often derailing discussion into pages that get nothing other than frustration and repetition.

Then there's all the stuff at the FE7 tier list where people just keep arguing about Merlinus and complaining about no decision being made (when Colonel previously decided NOT to tier him but people kept on bitching about it).

Like IOS said, tier lists you go in are constantly packed with discussion that hardly have any character comparisons and the usual "well this site doesn't even have a clear definition of efficiency". Reading this OVER AND OVER again gets tiresome.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Speedwagon

[-Cynthia-]

Ignoring Ray's shit luck versus these guys with short bows who double him...

You seem fixated on Sacae for some reason. Obviously since I was comparing them at 15/0 I wasn't talking about that, and pointing out Ray's durability flaw agianst one enemy type is ignoring a lot of points.

It's not like Lugh's luck is that much better, about 5 points at equal levels, so if Ray's facing displayed crit, Lugh probably is as well. Lugh can make it go down with supports, but so can Ray.

Edited April 8, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

Right.

So, may I try to restart now relevent discussion with the points made a couple posts up?

It's obvious cats wasn't online for a little while. With all the posts centering around him while he was off, can you really blame him for responding when he came back online? I don't think so. What does it matter if discussion has shifted away from him in the interim?

Oh, and promoted sue can wield silver bows without any AS loss. If she 2HKOs with silver it isn't a problem. If not, then taking off 40% of an enemy's health with a killer vs. 90% with two hits of silver I'm not sure what is better. Probably the silver, but then she's still doubling anyway and letting any unit that can hit get an easy kill. And if she isn't doubling with her full spd with silver then she can use a killer and -1 AS isn't exactly going to get her doubled anyway.

[grandjackal]

How far would their supports get?

Well lessee, they're all 10+2 for one another. 25 for a C, 30 for a B, 40 for an A. You have them from chapter 7 onwards. You have 10 chapters+4 gaidens. We will axe out the desert for obvious reasons, so that's 9 chapters. They could easily be at B with one another, and whoever gets the A will probably just manage by chapter 17. I would suggest Treck gets the A with Zealot, as +3 hit and crit>+3 avoid here, and Noah doesn't even really get anything out of Aing them anyways. He could opt to keep the C for Fir, if he so wishes.

You seem fixated on Sacae for some reason. Obviously since I was comparing them at 15/0 I wasn't talking about that, and pointing out Ray's durability flaw agianst one enemy type is ignoring a lot of points.

1. Sacae is rarely spoken of, I would like to discuss it more because of it. Sacae interests me, Ilia is boring.

2. That one enemy type is so prevailent in the Sacae chapters that I might as well fixate on that one enemy type.

3. It is a pretty mighty blow, considering 4 of the game's chapters just up and changed from what we used to consider norm. It couldbe a brick wall for Lou on which it has been a steady climb from being meh to decently good since his joining chapter.

It's not like Lugh's luck is that much better, about 5 points at equal levels, so if Ray's facing displayed crit, Lugh probably is as well. Lugh can make it go down with supports, but so can Ray.

What supports? Lou's got lolChad and MurderMeEllen who could honestly get ORKOd here. Ray's got...No one but Lou. Gee, thanks for the measily 5-7 at best crit evade, bro...

Edited April 8, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Colonel M]

(Colonel M: if you ever play after chapter 16 and think for even a second: "gee, I wish this unit could take another hit", then you could have given that unit a robe if it doesn't already have 60 hp.)

I am well aware of it Narga. It's a matter of how necessary it is. You also get a couple of Robes beforehand and other units are pretty healthy in HP at this point (20/6 Dieck has 48 HP, 20/10 Rutgar has 50) or some have too low of Def to really make it matter (20/1 Clarine, or 10/11, has 26 HP | 7 Def with B Rutgar. A robe still doesn't save her from being 3HKOed).

I'm not denying the use of Angelic Robe since it makes units such as Niime a bit better with using Nosferatu.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

You would have to take that up with someone else; I didn't come up with that position, and clearly someone did feel that Astrid could take that position without the assumption of a retarded player, since the list quite clearly did not assume said retarded player. If you disagree with Astrid's position, that only means that Astrid should move; I don't see how it means that the conditions of the list are lying to you. If I saw Seth in low tier on an FE8 list, my first response would be to post a "Seth Should Go Up" argument, not to complain that the list clearly assumes that characters with red hair can't be above low tier, or some other non-existent condition.

I did argue against it, and you were the one who gave me all that player doesn't know how to recruit her business.

You yourself have said that the list assumes the player knows basically nothing about FE9. Not which characters are good, nothing about growths, not about supports, not which characters recruit who, etc. Your tier list doesn't assume the player is someone of average skill, and I have no idea how on earth you managed to convince Narga that the list assumed anything but that the player was anything but a complete doofus when every single post in the thread suggests otherwise. I'm willing to bet I can find even more things that point to the list assuming that the player is a retard and not one of average skill, if you want me too.

I also have no problem with assuming that the tier player is an average joe instead of a genius who knows the game inside out and never makes mistakes; but that's not what your tier list does.

[Narga_Rocks]

You yourself have said that the list assumes the player knows basically nothing about FE9. Not which characters are good, nothing about growths, not about supports, not which characters recruit who, etc. Your tier list doesn't assume the player is someone of average skill, and I have no idea how on earth you managed to convince Narga that the list assumed anything but that the player was anything but a complete doofus when every single post in the thread suggests otherwise. I'm willing to bet I can find even more things that point to the list assuming that the player is a retard and not one of average skill, if you want me too.

I also have no problem with assuming that the tier player is an average joe instead of a genius who knows the game inside out and never makes mistakes; but that's not what your tier list does.

I still call the tier list player of that list "scrub". That's his name to me. Int had more insulting words for the player, but I was always under the impression (from the start) that the player not being perfect does not equal the player has an IQ lower than Lilina's spd. I think the list is ambiguous on just what the player is capable of, though. How often do you fail to protect your healers, for example. And so I call it scrub and think the idea isn't useful.

However, regardless of what cats may have argued early on, I've chosen to simply assume he was trying to stay true to the ideas put forth by the other 4 cabal members. You may have noticed in other posts of his that he has strong feelings about Tier List topic creators holding themselves above the rest of the contributors and changing whatever they feel about the list. The other 4 quite clearly wanted the player to be "average", or whatever they think they were saying. Basically, not perfect. And so cats would try to argue under those conditions in order to be true to the original intent of the rest of the cabal. When they all disappeared and it became evident they didn't care about the list anymore, he started to talk about what he thought.

And so, later on you can see cats was clearly in favour of a tier list player that has access to:

the manual

the tutorials

anything else on the screen

that's it, but the player plays as well as (s)he can under the circumstances (which is certainly not what the rest of the cabal had in mind).

That clearly does not say the player is an idiot. Also, I don't remember cats claiming the player doesn't know who recruits who. If it is there find a post and quote it. I remember Colonel M trying to sell that, but I strongly disagreed with him on the basis that the game tells you which units talk to which enemies while you are on the deployment screen. Now, recruiting stefan and re-recruiting shinon is a different matter entirely, but not knowing how to recruit them perfectly falls in line with the player only having access to those three things. You can know that rolf talks to shinon, and based on remembering that other conversations lead to recruitment you can argue that scrub will try to have that chat. But how on earth would the player know that ike must then defeat shinon? Once rolf has a chat, the player sees that it didn't work and gives up. Bye bye shinon. I killz you now since you won't join.

Just think of it like the perfect player back before the internet was around and is too cheap to buy one of the guidebooks. It's almost interesting to think about what a player would do if they've played the game a few times but don't go online to discover everything about it. I say almost because I think it is far more interesting to discuss which character is best when you know everything you can squeeze out of the characters.

[nflchamp]

The problem was that that list originally said "allow for maximal error", which basically did put the player into retard-level playing. And there is almost no limit to how dumb someone can play one of these games.

[Colonel M]

I retracted instances such as Zihark and stayed consistent with Stefan, which you can't really tell me the player that lacks the resources is making it more difficult to find him. Obviously you'd assume that you can get items later on (since we were assuming the player played the game more than once), but what if he thinks that there isn't anything important there? I loved the idea of experimenting with a character's relevance of how if he/she disappeared how it would affect the team. My problem was the other rules, which it appeared that CATS didn't exactly stand by, basically killed the cool experiment within it.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Stick to FE6 and try not to derail...

[Colonel M]

Stick to FE6 and try not to derail...

Sorry, I was responding to what Narga said.

So, what are the thoughts on the recruitment ordeal?

[grandjackal]

We're never gonna move on, are we?

Should I just cut to it and say That under the supports, the worst that a regular leveled Ilian team (I'm assuming 20/1 for the duo, level 8 or 9 for Zealot) is a 6RKO with no crit on them? Outside of acc (and Roy's cavs are probably no better outside maybe Lance, Zealot perhaps needing an energy ring to crit-kill with ranged weapons), probably wouldn't be behaving much differently from Roys cav duo.

Scratch Lance actually, unless he's like level 20/8, he's not doubling with a ranged weapon even the slow 18 AS nomads with a ranged weapon (as it'd weigh him down by 1 at the least).

[Narga_Rocks]

The problem was that that list originally said "allow for maximal error", which basically did put the player into retard-level playing. And there is almost no limit to how dumb someone can play one of these games.

Yes, the original rule was hilarious in its inability to accurately state what the creators intended for it to state. "maximal error", if it means how it says, makes me wonder how we account for the player being unable to get past 1-P because (s)he is too stupid to use the vulnerary. But that was corrected before very long, despite the less useful members of the cabal wanting to suggest that we were falling under a fallacy even though we weren't. That list is actually an example of how much better cats is than certain other members of this community, both currently existing and those that no longer do.

I retracted instances such as Zihark and stayed consistent with Stefan, which you can't really tell me the player that lacks the resources is making it more difficult to find him. Obviously you'd assume that you can get items later on (since we were assuming the player played the game more than once), but what if he thinks that there isn't anything important there? I loved the idea of experimenting with a character's relevance of how if he/she disappeared how it would affect the team. My problem was the other rules, which it appeared that CATS didn't exactly stand by, basically killed the cool experiment within it.

Yeah, I know you quit eventually. I'm glad for that.

And I fully agree that stefan (and the occult scroll he provides) will rarely, if ever, exist when considering the tier positions of the other characters. And yes, some of the rules were cool ideas, and other rules made them either irrelevant or impossible to discuss. But like you said, of the dumb rules it seems cats was not in favour of any of them.

And so, that aside, who wants to say anything about sue vs. Lilina, Garret, and those near them in the sacae list? GJ did a post before the mega-derailments of a few days (or was it weeks) ago about sue vs. those people and how she performs. Granted it was mostly wrt sacae, but hey, he likes sacae.

@GJ: male cavs get +2 con promo bonus. He has 11 con after promotion. Javelins have 11 con. Problem solved. Hand axes weigh him down, but they have 5 less hit anyway. The +1 mt doesn't make up for it.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

K fine, he'd need to be 20/6. I suppose that's benefit of the doubt levels there for him.

Ok, not exactly like BOTH the duo.

[Florete]

Hot damn, this topic is crazy. Part of me is glad I was just watching Soul Eater instead of reading the messages as they popped up.

And so, that aside, who wants to say anything about sue vs. Lilina, Garret, and those near them in the sacae list? GJ did a post before the mega-derailments of a few days (or was it weeks) ago about sue vs. those people and how she performs. Granted it was mostly wrt sacae, but hey, he likes sacae.

Where is that? I'm inclined to say both are > Lilina, but I'd like to see that first.

[grandjackal]

http://fegenesis.shaym.in/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=93

There, and you can find the link to the original post in Narga's post there.

Though I uhhh...go a bit overboard when I suddenly switch over to arguing hte merit of archers in general and tried to argue Wolt up ;;>> Might have to skip a bit after that to get back to Sue discussion.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Narga_Rocks]

Garret has about 10 Def and 55 HP walking into Sacae. Nomads do 18 damage, they have 19 AS to his 11. 8x2 damage, 4RKO. 13 luck to their 18 crit, while they double. 16/1 Sue pulls off the same durability, minus the whole double crit attempts and a Shin support to negate crit entirely.

Garret's got 38 base hit. Hand axes are 50 hit. Nomads have about 46 avoid. This means that Garret's got 42 displayed on them. 16/1 Sue B Shin and a killer bow has 125 hit, an A makes 130. That's 79-84 hit. She'd have about 20 might, 21 with Shin support. Either way, a crit would insta-kill a nomad, using the average nomad stats I showed earlier, therefore Sue's offense is better on the basis that she can just hit the enemy.

This is 16/1 Sue, and she makes a lower mid character look stupid. Now if she were something like, let's say 20/2, Garret is fucked because Sue with Shin support would actually be 5RKOd.

That's just nomads, I could have brought up how the second largest enemy groups are sword users (nomad troopers, swordmasters), or that Sue's 20/2 avoid with Shin is 63 which puts nomads to coinflips and therefore boosting Sue's durability lead further on Garret indirectly.

If this were Ilia? Sure, I would buy Sue being worse than Garret (I still wouldn't see her with the likes of Cath and Hue though). Sacae? I think there's a severe underestimation going on here.

EDIT: Geese at promotion is already more durable than Garret, even in Sacae. 46 HP and 13 Def is 5RKOd by nomads, as opposed to Garret's 4RKO. Geese needs 1 speed to avoid being doubled by nomads, doubling his durability. Ilia, 14 AS doubles steel pegs so that he doesn't need to rely on crits to kill jokes. Geese doesn't get doubled by wyvern lords in Bern, etc. You could argue the effort makes Geese a problem, but he does end up better in the end.

Explain yourself with Hue.

Here is his post about Garret v. sue specifically.

I can see he posted the thing for genesis, and with a link to where it started on sf. But then like everything else it quickly devolves into tangents and outright unrelated things. I'm just glad that the fe10 list didn't do this all the time back when the major moves happened.

[Colonel M]

Seems good enough to bolster Sue into Lower Mid.

Hot damn, this topic is crazy. Part of me is glad I was just watching Soul Eater instead of reading the messages as they popped up.

When it's run by the tyrant, everything is guaranteed to get crazy around here.

*Puts on BlackGlasses*.

But I'm a little sad at seeing it posted like that. :(

Edited April 8, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

K fine, he'd need to be 20/6. I suppose that's benefit of the doubt levels there for him.

Ok, not exactly like BOTH the duo.

Can we talk about my Lance that had 9 spd until like level 11? What an idiot that guy was. And an awesome 7 str to go with it. Lance is like my only character to ever get so massively screwed. That's never happened to any of my units in any other fe game. I mean, sure, they go off their averages by one or two. Who doesn't? But in two fe6 playthroughs he's either gotten screwed (massively) in str + def or str + spd. The second is much worse than the first, but even so both are annoying. Well, he got spd blessed in the first instance and it was NM so it wasn't a problem, but so far with the second problem in HM he is like 7th best or worse on the team. Alan is cursed now, too, but the first time it was only str and this time it is only spd.

(And don't say PEMN. I'm venting, not arguing.)