FE6 HM Tier List

[Colonel M]

Can we talk about my Lance that had 9 spd until like level 11? What an idiot that guy was. And an awesome 7 str to go with it. Lance is like my only character to ever get so massively screwed. That's never happened to any of my units in any other fe game. I mean, sure, they go off their averages by one or two. Who doesn't? But in two fe6 playthroughs he's either gotten screwed (massively) in str + def or str + spd. The second is much worse than the first, but even so both are annoying. Well, he got spd blessed in the first instance and it was NM so it wasn't a problem, but so far with the second problem in HM he is like 7th best or worse on the team. Alan is cursed now, too, but the first time it was only str and this time it is only spd.

(And don't say PEMN. I'm venting, not arguing.)

Play fixed patch man. Then you get angry because you don't have instances where your Lance was RNG-blessed in Str. :/

Also can't believe a moderator derailing the topic a little bit hehehehehehe...

[Narga_Rocks]

Play fixed patch man. Then you get angry because you don't have instances where your Lance was RNG-blessed in Str. :/

I like my +5 spd Dieck just fine, thanks. Of course, I used up 2 speedwings to get Alan back to his average and could have used them to pump Dieck almost up to where he is now anyway and I would have had a proper Lance to go along with it.... <_< Where is the patch?

Also can't believe a moderator derailing the topic a little bit hehehehehehe...

It's a tier list topic. It'll be fine within a few posts. I'm more worried about derailment on random topics that have no reason to lead back to the original point. A few posts about another fe game in a tier list topic don't worry me much.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[CATS]

I think that by trolling, it's the nitpicking (too much) you keep doing even when it's unnecessary, like with the recruitment cost rule. Honestly was it necessary to nitpick about that? It's like the possibility of the rule changing just passed by and you ignored it. You jump at every chance to complain and nitpick about something, often derailing discussion into pages that get nothing other than frustration and repetition.

Then there's all the stuff at the FE7 tier list where people just keep arguing about Merlinus and complaining about no decision being made (when Colonel previously decided NOT to tier him but people kept on bitching about it).

Like IOS said, tier lists you go in are constantly packed with discussion that hardly have any character comparisons and the usual "well this site doesn't even have a clear definition of efficiency". Reading this OVER AND OVER again gets tiresome.

I was under the impression that a tier list is posted so that people can indicate what they think is wrong with it. Is there some special condition that I have which makes it unacceptable for me to do this, but ok for everyone else? If I see something that I disagree with or that I think is inconsistent, why should I keep quiet about it? The whole point of the topic is, essentially, for people to "complain" about what's wrong with the list (and in doing so, attempt to make it more accurate).

I wonder why you dump the entire Merlinus discussion onto me, when I was only one participant among many, and not even the one who originally brought it up, nor was I the one who recently revived it after it had finally died down for a bit. Correlation does not imply cause.

More importantly, do you seriously think it's no big deal that the whole concept which the list is based on can't be defined? I'd imagine that to be far more significant than just moving a random unit around. A list's standards are obviously essential to the discussion going on within it, and ambiguous standards will inevitably lead to arguments about the meaning of said standards, rather than the positions which are reliant on them. I don't know why you'd allow those ambiguous standards to exist, and then be surprised and angered when people end up questioning and discussing said standards, much less put the blame on someone like me. That's like holding a lighter to your hand and getting pissed at the flame when it burns you.

For example, this is exactly what happened to "my" FE9 list; it got bashed into oblivion because the standards of the list were unclear and left alot of room for personal interpretation, and there was much more discussion about this than about any of the positions on the list. Of course, this list has a lot going for it which that one didn't (it's older and most of the community wants it to live, which is probably why people are trying to stifle these issues about efficiency & etc), but it's a similar effect.

I also have no problem with assuming that the tier player is an average joe instead of a genius who knows the game inside out and never makes mistakes; but that's not what your tier list does.

You're still referring to it as "my" tier list. That's part of the issue here. As I've said 123948723 times by now, the OP of a tier list should not be considered its "owner" (unless it's Colonel M I guess, can't argue with the Tyrant).

The problem was that that list originally said "allow for maximal error", which basically did put the player into retard-level playing. And there is almost no limit to how dumb someone can play one of these games.

Yes, that was an extremely poor choice of words. I recall changing it after I realized how it could easily give people the wrong idea.

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, so cats has his last word in, we've all said a bunch on the fe9 tier list. We've discussed the all important question of "is cats trolling". I truly couldn't have survived without that all important question being answered in the tier list.

.

.

.

Anyone have anything more to add on sue vs the units above her like Lilina, Ray, Garret, etc? Like, "it's too hard to get her there" or, "yes, she could go above Garret" or anything of the sort?

[CATS]

Okay, so cats has his last word in, we've all said a bunch on the fe9 tier list. We've discussed the all important question of "is cats trolling". I truly couldn't have survived without that all important question being answered in the tier list.

Well, alot of people obviously couldn't have, since they all felt the need to weigh in on it.[/lastwordagain]

Anyone have anything more to add on sue vs the units above her like Lilina, Ray, Garret, etc? Like, "it's too hard to get her there" or, "yes, she could go above Garret" or anything of the sort?

Partially to disarm claims that I'm just trying to de-rail the topic (and also because I think it's true): Why is Sue under Lilina in the first place? 1-2 range is the only explanation that I can see, but Lilina's melee counter isn't worth very much at all, her offense isn't good (so you want top tiers countering instead of her anyways) and her extremely poor durability prevents her from having much of an enemy phase (OHKO'd by steel axes and ORKO'd by mercs until promotion or shortly before promotion, and easily 2RKO'd forever).

In exchange, Sue not only doubles, but she's extremely good at it. She's faster than Lance and etc, faster than all the top tiers except Rutger, faster than pretty much everyone except Rutger, for that matter. Consider that at L15, Sue + killer bow has 4 less Atk than Dieck + killing edge, but 4 more Spd, and they have nearly the same hit. Def-Res gap on midgame enemies is around 3-4 points, not big enough to compensate for Sue's doubling at all. Against a 6 Def/3 Res fighter, L12 Lilina + elfire does 19 damage once, and L12 Sue + iron bow does 16-17 damage, but notice that Sue's using her weakest weapon while Lilina's using her strongest. Sue can double steel axes with the steel bow, which does 20+ damage, or bust out the killer bow and win by even more (you get 2 of these prior to Ch 13, and who else is going to use them? after Ch 13, they're buyable). This is pretty much the situation forever, since Sue is so fast that she can even start doubling mercs after a while, whereas Lilina can't even double steel bow archers and such until she promotes.

Sue also has a significant win in concrete durability (a sad indicator of just how bad Lilina's is) and obviously alot of Avo. And she's mounted, and has extra move.

[Colonel M]

Cool, I agree with what has been stated. Furthermore, having more time to build said Bow Rank gives her the opportunity to use Killer Bows faster. I don't specifically know when it's going to happen, but if I had to take a wild stab in the air I'd probably say near Chapter 10-11. This leaves Chapters 7, 8, 8X, and 9, though to be honest that's almost 25 rounds per combat. It can be decreased, though, if you feed her some kills. Furthermore, she has a rapid EXP gain much like Lilina's except Sue earns them a bit more than Lilina (look at those Wyverns in Chapter 7. Tell me who's going to take them on not named Marcus, Zealot, or Lot w/Killer Axe). She also has Chapter 8 where she can whip out the Steel Bow against Soldiers and the mount mention is definitely considered: mounted units mean that you can ferry people across the chapter and not be a major detriment to the team otherwise (unless you're keeping the unit on her horse). Lilina might have to compete for Elfire too since Lugh can likely grab it at this point (and if he can't he's probably close since he starts with D Rank and was around since Chapter 4).

The only thing I question is what levels we see her within the game. She's nothing spectacular for a while (everyone and their mother can double Soldiers). This is also speaking that we're playing the game efficiently at the same time, maybe with a little favoritism in mind since obviously she can take kills from time to time as "rewards" for chipping Wyvern Knights. She only needs to be ~Level 5 to double the Steel Axe Fighters anyway, and she needs to be even less for Pirates, which exist for this chapter.

Aside from that, Sue > Lilina I agree on. Especially because, in order to even attempt to function in the Western Isles Lilina would have to take an Angelic Robe. Even then it's not a guarantee that she won't die since the max she can take is 23 Atk, which I'm guessing most Pirates | Fighters can reach with little difficult over time.

If you have an objection on this change, make your peace heard young one.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Won't die since the max she can take is 23 Atk, which I'm guessing most Pirates | Fighters can reach with little difficult over time.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmstats.html

Steel Axe doods even reach around 30 ATK.

[grandjackal]

Just to correct a statement.

CATS Said that Lillina does about 19 damage compared to Sue's generally 16 damage, yet the far more available Thunder spell would only be doing 2 less damage, which would still be outdoing Sue by 1, while this ignores C Roy and extra crit.

Just a minor correction, but I thought I'd just point that out. Either way, seems people generally agree with this move.

[Colonel M]

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmstats.html

Steel Axe doods even reach around 30 ATK.

The Steel Axe ones aren't the one I'm focused on. It's the Hand Axe ones in particular, which it seems that she can dodge some of them. Furthermore, the one with 19 Str in Chapter 11 is "usually" the Halberd Fighter, which is nowhere near where most of the action is going on (up near the broken wall or the villages near where Klein comes in). The Halberd dude never moves unless you're within his range, and you can obviously avoid that.

Aside from that, she would definitely be in trouble by Chapter 10 where Hand Axe Fighters can well surpass 23 Atk. Still, considering that she will probably get levels if we're using her semi-inefficiently, she can likely dodge that bullet (but barely).

She definitely can't exercise her 1 range advantage in Western Isles, so she's basically left with what Sue is doing anyway. Once Sue gets Killer Bows, she's butting Lilina out of the way.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

She can exercise her melee range on archers, or finishing off some melee class. I would say it makes her more flexible to position, but in comparison to an archer with a horse...

[Colonel M]

She can exercise her melee range on archers, or finishing off some melee class. I would say it makes her more flexible to position, but in comparison to an archer with a horse...

In the scenarios of melee classes (such as Mercenaries) she would be more likely to start instead of finish (although I'm not denying that she can't finish off melee enemies). Speaking strictly on something like Turn 2, if I had to use a combination of Dieck + Lilina to kill a Mercenary, I'm likely going to choose Lilina then Dieck instead of the other way around (as that leaves Dieck taking damage and thus requires healing and inefficiency blahblahblah). And with Melee fighters she's just going to 2 range like Sue is anyway, so the one range only matters on Archers which she always fails to double and is probably better left off finishing them off (accurate 2 range in that scenario > having Lilina attack first then Alan w/Javelin for example). Either way, I don't consider that much more flexible than Sue to begin with, and as we also said she has the mount which greatly increases Sue's flexibility on the team.

[Dark Sage]

@Lugh- Lugh should stay where he is. His earlygame has already been covered. He can double shit and at worst, he can chip. He can double most enemies with the exceptions of Nomads, Nomad troopers, mercenaries, heroes, myrmidons, swordmasters, and the occasional Falcoknight (which he can just oneshot with Aircalibur). All of these are enemies most characters have trouble against.

@Sue- Sue's issue is that she doesn't have good strength and she has a hard time getting up to par. I'm going to be covering Gonzales vs Shin right now, but if anyone wants to follow up on Sue...

Let's compare Shin and Gonzales at Chapter 10 (Shin will be at level 7)

Shin 7/0

HP: 30.5

Str: 10.9 (most likely 11)

Skill: 12

Speed: 15

Def: 8.2

Luck: 9.5

Res: 2.3

All of this translates into (with a shortbow): 15 Attack, 113 hit, 16 crit, 15 AS , and 39.5 avoid.

Gonzales 5/0

HP: 46

Str: 16

Skill: 8

Speed: 11

Def: 7

Luck: 7

Res 1

With an Iron axe, Gonzales has 24 attack, 98 hit, 11 AS, 4 crit, and 29 avoid.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch10a.html

Shin doubles everything except the mercenaries. Gonzales can only double steel bow archers and steel axe fighters. Defensively, Gonzales loses. Sure he wins in hp by 16 points, but he has a point less defense, less avoid, and is a frontline fighter. Gonzales is no slouch. He can OHKO a shaman, and he can 2RKO everything else. Give him a Killer Axe, and his offense rises even higher. He also has hand axes for range, though they're not really reliable. Unfortunately his best hit rate is 84% against a steel axe fighter. Everyone else can hit higher than that.

Chapter 11. Shin gains 2 levels and so does Gonzales.

Shin 9/0 (armed with a shortbow)

HP 32

Attack 16.8 (17 if you want to round up)

Hit 116

Crit 16

AS 16

Avoid 42.5

Defense 8.4

Gonzales 7/0

HP 46.8 (47 if you round up)

Attack 25.2

Hit 99

Crit 4 (34 with Killer Axe)

AS 12

Avoid 30

Defense 7.5

Nearly all the enemies here of distance attacks. Shin counters reliably, but Gonzales doesn't do it as well. Gonzales hits the slowest enemy with a handaxe 67% of the time. Not exactly what we call great aim. You mostly use handaxes along the North wall though. Once again, Shin doubles every enemy. Gonzales only doubles a couple of shamans, steel bow archers, longbow archers and steel axe fighters. That's all. Though to be fair, steel axe fighters are mostly what you fight.

At the end of this chapter, Gonzales obtains C support with Lilina and Shin gets C support with Sue.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Colonel M]

You should start with Chapter 11 where Gonzales gets 0 levels and Shin gets maybe 2-3, 3 tops. Although I don't have the video for Chapter 10 anymore:

Shin (8.11) - 31 HP | 10 Str | 12 Skl | 14 Spd | 8 Luck | 8 Def | 3 Res

You also are recruiting Gonzales near the very end of the chapter.

[Dark Sage]

Steel axe reinforcements come and Gonzales has exp. boost like Cecilia.

[CATS]

Lilina's flexibility is also limited by her durability. She gets 2RKO'd by a ton of 7-8 move 2 range enemies in Sacae (troopers can actually ORKO her iirc, not sure). She can get OHKO'd by hand axes, as mentioned already. And she can't use her melee counter at all when there's something in range that can ORKO her, which is a large number of the enemies. Steel axes, dragon riders, mercs and most promoted enemies are a ORKO all the way up until promotion (and sometimes even after promotion; needs to be 20/15, at the very least, to survive a Ch 21 dragon lord, which obviously isn't happening).

Sue's much better off in this respect. At 20/5 she has 7 more Hp and 4 more Def than Lilina. She stops getting OHKO'd by steel axes around L11 or 12, and pretty much never has to worry about hand axe or merc ORKOs. In addition to not getting ORKO'd as often, she's also more likely to avoid damage whenever she gets attacked (about 16 more avo than Lilina at L15, 19 more at 20/10).

Steel axe reinforcements come and Gonzales has exp. boost like Cecilia.

On an efficient run, you won't be lagging around to fight those reinforcements.

[Dark Sage]

What turn do they appear on, 11? Gonzales I think on average joins at turn 7-8.

[Colonel M]

Sounds solid enough. Making the change. I swept Lilina down (I don't really buy her beating even Douglas tbh and promoted Bors can still function on the Isles). Of course I have no problems to making Sue go up more, but there has only been "some" comment as to what she's doing vs. Garret in Sacae.

What turn do they appear on, 11? Gonzales I think on average joins at turn 7-8.

I didn't even see them (I blocked the forts). Gonzales also starts near the boss and, IIRC, will only cross the river if the village is not visited (which I usually do with Thany beforehand). In 2/2 runthroughs I always got Gonzales near the end of the chapter.

---

One last thing, though it is off-topic:

You're still referring to it as "my" tier list. That's part of the issue here. As I've said 123948723 times by now, the OP of a tier list should not be considered its "owner" (unless it's Colonel M I guess, can't argue with the Tyrant).

I do not consider this "my" tier list. It is the community's before it is mine. If it was just "mine", I would've never made the ruleset nor attempted to explain them more in-deth. I think at this point you're maybe poking around, but I might as well take everything said seriously since I am currently running this.

Sorry for "lastwordism", but I wanted to make that clear it is 100% the community's before the list is actually "mine".

Edited April 8, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dark Sage]

I didn't even see them (I blocked the forts). Gonzales also starts near the boss and, IIRC, will only cross the river if the village is not visited (which I usually do with Thany beforehand). In 2/2 runthroughs I always got Gonzales near the end of the chapter.

In my experience, he crossed the river anyway, even after I saved the village. Fine, I'll drop him one level, but he gains three levels in Chapter 11 then.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Colonel M]

In my experience, he crossed the river anyway, even after I saved the village. Fine, I'll drop him one level, but he gains three levels in Chapter 11 then.

With Gonzales, he's coming in at base in Chapter 11. Though I did have an 8 Gonzales by Chapter 12, so go ahead with that.

[CATS]

Even if Gonzales gets to fight reinforcements in Ch 10, Shin's there to fight them too, so it shouldn't change the overall level gap by very much, if any.

I think at this point you're maybe poking around, but I might as well take everything said seriously since I am currently running this.

Sorry for "lastwordism", but I wanted to make that clear it is 100% the community's before the list is actually "mine".

Yeah, just poking around. And wow, I missed that tl;dr post somehow. Talk about an adequate response.

[Dark Sage]

Let's move on to Chapter 12

http://fe.dead-end.com/fe6hmch12a.htm (I was told this link may not work, but I don't know another one)

10/0 Shin

HP 32.8

Str 12.3

Skill 13.5

Spd 17.5

Luk 10.3

Def 8.5

Res 3.3

With a Killer Bow and C Sue he has 21.8 attack, 123 hit, 38 cit, 17 AS and 47.8 avoid.

8/0 Gonzales

HP 48.3

Str 17.8

Skill 8.6

Spd 12.5

Luk 8.1

Res 1.2

With a Killer axe and C Lilina, Gonzales has 29.3 attack, 99.4 hit (I miscalculated hit earlier, will fix that soon), 12 AS, 39 crit, and 35.6 avoid.

Lots of steel axe fighters, armors, and steel and longbow archers. All of them easily doubleable for Gonzales. His hit's improved somewhat, so he shouldn't have too much of a problem. Shin can now promote to gain swords and Brave Bow if you want. As usual, he doubles everything on the map. However, Gonzales can fight Aine, which is something Shin cannot. The durability gap is closing too. Shin still maintains his avoid advantage, but Gonzales has +1 def with Lilina, has WTA against lances, and an astronomical hp difference. Even so, Shin still has the edge because he can dodge better than Gonzales (enemies here have higher hit rate, so it's a big advantage that Shin has a decent shot of dodging). In addition, Shin can also fight warriors because of his high avoid and ability to double. Needless to say, Shin still has the advantage, but Gonzales is still doing fine.

Skipping 12x and by this time, Gonzales and Shin are at 10/0 and 12/0 respectively.

http://fe.dead-end/fe6hmch13.html

Here we will assume that both are armed with Killers, Shin has an Iron Bow, and Gonzales has a Hand axe.

Shin has 34.3 HP, 22.7 attack, 124 hit, 18 AS, 39 Crit, 8.7 defense, and 49 avoid.

Gonzales has 50.5 HP, 30.5 attack, 100.6 hit, 39 Crit, 13 AS, 10 defense, and 40 avoid.

Post rest of the argument later, but Gonzales has WTA and higher defense and HP so he's winning durability.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Colonel M]

I just finished Chapter 12 again. 11 Turns, but okay fine I'm sorry Mr. dondon I spent a little more time to get Shin up to promotion and Asthol decided to get hit by the Sleep Staff which didn't help. I think I missed the Flux tome too...

This chapter is pretty rough on Gonzales. Even Lot was feeling a lot of the burn, and he's more accurate with his 2 range than Gonzales is. Anyway, Shin definitely wins in this chapter. First off, he doesn't have Killer Bow (he was close right before he promoted in Chapter 12), so let's not assume something that isn't likely to happen. This doesn't change much since Klein + Shin were a cool combo. Klein would start off with the LongBow, which wouldn't double but he was fairly accurate with it (70s Hit) and then Shin could juuust kill it with Steel Bow (IIRC he can whiff KOes, mine came lucky with the +1 Str which doesn't always happen for some Shins).

However, Gonzales can fight Aine, which is something Shin cannot.

Gonzales cannot fight Aine. Just because he can dent her doesn't mean that he's going to hit her (hello +30 Avoid on top of something like 20ish Avoid. Too lazy to dig up numbers). Besides, your best option vs. the boss is pulling out a promoted Dieck | Rutgar and just slamming Aine with the Durandal for a OHKO. Very simple.

has WTA against lances

There are only two Armor Knights on the map. One on each side.

Even so, Shin still has the edge because many foes on this map like snipers are accurate.

??? Well the enemies are accurate, and so is Shin. Not sure what you're trying to say...

I consider ~50 percentile "accurate" for the enemy, enough to put you into a scare when considering the Enemy Phase. Still, Shin being more accurate against the Archers and the Shamans is what counts. Archers are dodgy little fellows for some retarded reason. Furthermore, versus the Shamans, Shin can whip out the LongBow and chip them safely from a distance, which is pretty awesome to consider. The mount also helps him adjust easier in the small gaps and can get minor mention of ferrying Roy from one end to another if you need to.

Gonzo is cool and all, but IMO Shin really wins against him. Accurate 2 range pretty much guarantees you're being deployed (or you're optimal, which means that you are a positive). Gonzales is cool and all, but in this chapter he's iffy on what he can do. The astronomical HP lead is what helps his durability though, so point taken. I think Shin wins handily though.

Skipping 12x

I wouldn't just yet. Shin is pretty close to optimal, so he COULD see himself crawling in the cave. It mostly goes back to promotion. I ended with a 13 Shin in Chapter 12 just recently (now, I'll admit, I put a little more favoritism towards him, but he still contributed positively nevertheless). Rides a mount, carries Swords. He's pretty close. Still, for the sake of argument let's assume he isn't.

Chapter 13

I'm going to sum that one honestly. Gonzales is pretty ballin' here. The Halberd, right? Now I wouldn't give this to Echinda, for starters. Her Avoid drops from 42 to 30, which means it screws around with her concrete durability. Lot also doesn't have much better claims to it and he likely isn't fielded past Chapter 8 (this is just the whole "just in case" and Zealot | Marcus using Axes in Western Isles is a big no-no IMO. Gonzales, on the other hand, doesn't suffer AS loss from the weapon. This means that you obtain 2 chances to OHKO Cavaliers, which is pretty amazing within itself.

Sorry to sound like a nitpicker.

[Dark Sage]

I know Shin wins Chapter 12. The point was that the gap was closing. When I said many of the enemies were accurate, I meant they could probably hit Shin just as well they could hit Gonzales (which is pretty good). Still I misworded the above quote. I forget what I tried to say before though. Also Aine's a boy.

And I agree with you on Chapter 13. Gonzales also autowins on Chapter 14 for obvious reasons. But Gonzales can't double a lot of the enemies. Also Halberd is inaccurate, so Gonzales has trouble hitting despite WTA.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Dark Sage

[-Cynthia-]

I don't see how Gonzales gains 3 levels in Ch11. Yes, he's good against the Cavs...the Cavs we should never be fighting if we're playing efficiently. We actually have quite a bit of pressure to move quickly in this map, stop the bandits from killing the villages, get Klein before any archers die, and get Tate before any Pegs die. This favors high Mov units (like Shin).

Personally, I couldn't get more than one level out of Gonzo in Ch11 (and he didnt get any in 10 either, since he shows up at the end of the map). I used Shin and Gonzales the same (other characters who need less Exp weaken, they finish), though Gonzales has this nasty habit of missing and gaining 1 Exp. I can't just leave units hanging around either, so someone else has to finish it off as I move on.

You moved Shin in Ilia, not Sacae. On a side note, Sacae!Sue probably isn't two tiers above Ilia!Sue either.

Edited April 8, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Cath basically has no use. She's inferior to Astohl (Astohl has actually good combat for a while which turns to mediocre, plus better durability). I really don't think any chapters after she's recruited warrant fielding two theives since unit slots are pretty limited on indoor maps. Plus, she might actually suffer some negativity for recruitment since we have to ferry Roy over to her not once, but 3 times (and she runs away towards chests, so it's extra annoying). Im not seeign a situation where Cath is less than entirely redundant.

So then do you think Chad should move to ~Lower Mid?