FE6 HM Tier List

[Dark Sage]

Maybe, but people like Colnel M and I have gotten him up to level 8 at that point. Also, the average chapter completion time is 9-15 turns per chapter (I think. Someone help me out here), so it's concievable Gonzales will fight the fighters (from chapter 10) and cavaliers.

[-Cynthia-]

Maybe, but people like Colnel M and I have gotten him up to level 8 at that point. Also, the average chapter completion time is 9-15 turns per chapter (I think. Someone help me out here), so it's concievable Gonzales will fight the fighters (from chapter 10) and cavaliers.

Some chapters take 15 or so turns, like Ch23. 11A is not one of those chapters if we're playing efficiently.

WoMC, Chad has thieving utility (and minor combat) before Astohl joins, so he's obviously not entirely redundant like Cath is. Plus, Ch8 in particular goes easier with two theives. I do think he could go below Astohl though, mainly because we might actually field Astohl on non-chest maps (he's one of the better C9 combatants for example). I guess if we trained Chad he might have decent combat, but I haven't found this very easy to do, since he tends to join just when lances become the dominant weapon type (except for C5).

Unlike Chad, Cath has no chapters before Astohl joins to gain any sort of utiltiy, and I'm not sure it's even possible for her to have decent combat ever.

Edited April 8, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Dark Sage]

Don't you mean 10A? 11A requires you to do things if you want extra items like recruit Tate, recruit Klein, save all the villages for a hero crest, protect Tate and Klein's troops for and orions bolt and elysian whip etc.

Yeah I could see this going on for a while. Unless you're assuming you aren't fielding Gonzales.

[-Cynthia-]

Don't you mean 10A? 11A requires you to do things if you want extra items like recruit Tate, recruit Klein, save all the villages for a hero crest, protect Tate and Klein's troops for and orions bolt and elysian whip etc.

Yeah I could see this going on for a while. Unless you're assuming you aren't fielding Gonzales.

No, we're fielding Gonzales. I just don't see the reason on either map to be waiting around for reinforcements, since this is efficiency. I could see the point in ranked since we want to pad Exp, but not here.

Most of the things you listed in 11A are time sensitive and happen on our way to the throne anyway. I'm no speedrun master like dondon, but I think 10A takes me ~8 chapters and 11A about 9.

[Narga_Rocks]

You moved Shin in Ilia, not Sacae. On a side note, Sacae!Sue probably isn't two tiers above Ilia!Sue either.

Except some people want to apply a large opportunity cost to Ilia!Sue's existence. Basically, get her 20 levels and you must get 21 levels combined for Tate + Thany and you can't use shin. Use him, too, and now you have to get even more levels for Tate + Thany. Apparently that's bad. I don't really want to consider it, but I can see where Mekkah (and others, maybe) are coming from.

Basically, even if she's only got one tier difference in ability in sacae over ilia, the op. cost throws in another tier gap. If we accept that cost as being meaningful then I could easily see a two tier gap.

[-Cynthia-]

Except some people want to apply a large opportunity cost to Ilia!Sue's existence. Basically, get her 20 levels and you must get 21 levels combined for Tate + Thany and you can't use shin. Use him, too, and now you have to get even more levels for Tate + Thany. Apparently that's bad. I don't really want to consider it, but I can see where Mekkah (and others, maybe) are coming from.

Basically, even if she's only got one tier difference in ability in sacae over ilia, the op. cost throws in another tier gap. If we accept that cost as being meaningful then I could easily see a two tier gap.

Hmm I guess I didn't consider that. Since Colonel M seems to be ignoring recruitment costs though, I kind of assume this would go into the same line of thinking (it doesn't actually have to do with Sue's performance).

[Narga_Rocks]

WoMC, Chad has thieving utility (and minor combat) before Astohl joins, so he's obviously not entirely redundant like Cath is. Plus, Ch8 in particular goes easier with two theives. I do think he could go below Astohl though, mainly because we might actually field Astohl on non-chest maps (he's one of the better C9 combatants for example). I guess if we trained Chad he might have decent combat, but I haven't found this very easy to do, since he tends to join just when lances become the dominant weapon type (except for C5).

But why? Wendy and co can trade around chest keys to open the first 4 chests and one thief can open doors (or just use door keys) and for the last room use a mount with a chest key + one thief. Unless you can spare two mounts to carry the two thieves. I suppose you could open all 4 chests in one turn that way.

About sue:

I suppose it's up to the community what to do with that type of cost. Really I want to look at it as "we raised sue, and for whatever reason we are going to Ilia anyway", but I admit that this is a pretty narrow view of the situation.

[-Cynthia-]

I guess you have a point on the chest/door keys, I guess we really don't need Chad on C8. I did forget that Ch6 is also a chest map though (and there aren't buyable chest keys before C7), and there's a stealable Red Gem(and some vulneraries I guess) before Astohl shows up. I would say Astohl's combat lead (also better durability and stealing) over the rest of the game> this, but I dunno.

[Narga_Rocks]

I guess you have a point on the chest/door keys, I guess we really don't need Chad on C8. I did forget that Ch6 is also a chest map though (and there aren't buyable chest keys before C7), and there's a stealable Red Gem(and some vulneraries I guess) before Astohl shows up. I would say Astohl's combat lead (also better durability and stealing) over the rest of the game> this, but I dunno.

About the only thing I can think of in chapter 8 is stealing. The thieves go straight to Lilina's door (if you haven't opened it already) and so you have an armor with a chest key + two lockpicks you may want to steal all within two turns. Lockpicks are actually worth a decent chunk of change so if you have lots then you can get a fair amount of money from selling them. 1200 = 1 killer lance before silver card or 2 killer lances after silver card.

Earlier on (and later on) in the chapter I don't think there is any point at all in which more than 1 thief is beneficial.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

WoMC, Chad has thieving utility (and minor combat) before Astohl joins, so he's obviously not entirely redundant like Cath is. Plus, Ch8 in particular goes easier with two theives. I do think he could go below Astohl though, mainly because we might actually field Astohl on non-chest maps (he's one of the better C9 combatants for example). I guess if we trained Chad he might have decent combat, but I haven't found this very easy to do, since he tends to join just when lances become the dominant weapon type (except for C5).

Right, but you don't seriously think Chad's 3-7 justify a high tier position then, do you?

EDIT: Congrats to Narga for having the 9001th reply in this subforum.

Edited April 9, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[dondon151]

I always deploy 2 thieves on chapter 8 - 1 is occupied with the middle chest room, and the other one is rescue-carried to the left chest room (along with a mounted unit with Chest Keys. This saves 1-2 turns).

[Narga_Rocks]

I always deploy 2 thieves on chapter 8 - 1 is occupied with the middle chest room, and the other one is rescue-carried to the left chest room (along with a mounted unit with Chest Keys. This saves 1-2 turns).

But what's the difference between leaving a thief in the middle chest room and using the Ostia doofs in the middle chest room? (Aside from $)

[Colonel M]

Wait I'm trying to grasp where I mentioned killing Cavaliers in Chapter 11. There's no way in hell that you're facing those. In fact:

stop the bandits from killing the villages

This will never happen. In fact, they will never appear so long as you ferry Rutgar over to kill Oro. This can be done as easily as Turn 3-4, maybe 4 with an unpromoted Thany. I can even provide the video as to how I did it, though you'd have to watch it over your VBA.

Also, what I did with Gonzales in that chapter didn't involve farming reinforcements. Since one of the goals is getting Clarine over to Klein's group, this isn't difficult at all. Just send Gonzales, Marcus, Clarine, maybe one other combat unit if you think you need to pad them and go to town. I didn't get Gonzales much higher (11.75 was what I got by Chapter 13, which I did deploy him in Chapter 12X to do very little).

...Maybe I really played Chapter 10A that slowly if you really got 8 Turns. >_>

[dondon151]

I'm no speedrun master like dondon, but I think 10A takes me ~8 chapters and 11A about 9.

For the record, I completed neither as fast as you claim you did.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Possible if you pass on recruiting Tate (she comes on turn 10).

Edited April 9, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Colonel M]

You should be able to recruit Tate earlier than that.

Also wtf Percival killed Klein. qq

Edited April 9, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

You should be able to recruit Tate earlier than that.

Also wtf Percival killed Klein. qq

I think somebody was talking 10B for some reason rather than 11A. The map with the Boss = General has Tate appear on turn 10. The map with the Boss = Bishop has her appear on turn 7. It is quite impossible to recruit Tate before turn 11 (I assume she won't voluntarily talk to Klein on turn 10 enemy phase) on the Bartre/Elphin route.

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, I was talking about Echidna route, where she shows up on Turn 7. Considering the proximity of her troops to the throne, Tate should be recruited near the end of the map.

10A goes pretty quickly if you ferry your ground units. It might have actually been 10 instead, not sure. Either way, I know I recruited Gonzales the turn before I seized, so I'm still not seeing a lot of kills for him there.

Edited April 9, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

I think somebody was talking 10B for some reason rather than 11A. The map with the Boss = General has Tate appear on turn 10. The map with the Boss = Bishop has her appear on turn 7. It is quite impossible to recruit Tate before turn 11 (I assume she won't voluntarily talk to Klein on turn 10 enemy phase) on the Bartre/Elphin route.

Ah yeah, the one map where you're forced to field Ward or Lot in order to get the Speedwing and I think the second Swordreaver. Doesn't sound entertaining.

Also, have you checked your PMs Narga?

Either way, I know I recruited Gonzales the turn before I sezied, so I'm still not seeing a lot of kills for him there.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you. It would've been one for me, but I crappily placed Zealot and it cost me a turn. Either way, Gonzales is unlikely to even gain EXP in this chapter (the only thing left is the Shaman and the Pirates up north, who could be barricaded.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dark Sage]

Yeah I get that Gonzales won't gain levels in Chapter 10A, but he probably will in 11A. After all, cavaliers aren't the only things he can fight. Also when I said skipped chapter 12x, I meant we're not going to do a comparison. For the most part, I thought we ignored Chapters 8x, 12x, and 20x for comparison, unless I'm wrong. Besides Shin wins there anyway.

Gonzales wins in Chapter 13 due to WTA and Halberd, and he can kill wyverns nearly as well as Shin can. He autowins chapter 14 due to higher movement. His WTA is about equal. He's weak to the overabundance of mercenaries (I hate Chapter 14), but he can kill mages in a single hit and he's effective against wyverns, including lords.

Chapter 15, Shin has B Sue, Gonzales has B Lilina. Shin is 15/0, Gonzales is 13/0. Both are armed with Killers.

Shin

HP 36.8 (37 if you want)

Attack 22.5 (19.5 with Iron)

Hit 131

Crit 43 (13 with Iron)

AS 19

Avoid 54.5

Defense 10

Gonzales

HP 53.2

Attack 32 (29 with Iron)

Hit 98.9 (99 is probable. And for some reason I've been having trouble consistently calculating Hit).

Crit 44 (13 with Iron)

AS 15

Avoid 44.8

Defense 11

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch15.html

Both Shin and Gonzales double nearly everything here. But there are nearly as many sword users here as lancers. Shin has the edge on the valkyries because he can dodge them better, though there are only two of them. Gonzales can hit the Archers and Snipers without eating a counter, unlike Shin, and Gonzales is effective against Raeth (or whatever his name is). Still, Shin can kill wyverns better than Gonzales, including the silver lance wyvern, which Gonzales can't double (and most of the time kill). Overall, I'd say they perform quite similarly here. The gap in performance is closing.

But keep in mind that in Sacae, Shin wins because he doesn't have WTD against many of the enemies. All Gonzales can consistently hurt there are wyverns and mages. Though to be fair, you do fight some wyverns and mages, so Gonzales still has a use.

Bern will be tough to compare. I'll do it later.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Narga_Rocks]

Gonzales is effective against Raeth (or whatever his name is).

Two questions: why are either going to chapter 14 and what does it matter if Gonzales has effective damage on the boss but likely has a 40% or lower hit rate?

I suppose you could use Thany to drop (unpromoted) him on the peak 2 squares from the boss (Miledy can't pick Gonzales up ever and promoted Thany can't pick up promoted Gonzales and promoted Tate can't pick up any Gonzales and unpromoted Tate can only pick up unpromoted Gonzales). It's not the halberd anymore but the hand axe, of course, but that's still something. Of course, unless you have a not promoted Thany flying around you won't be able to move the promoted Gonzales so you might be better off with Garret standing there due to crit.

[Dark Sage]

Gonzales would go to Chapter 14 because of the wyverns and because since I'm comparing how well either would do in Chapter 14, I'm assuming they'd be used there (well, not Shin). And Gonzales could use Killer Axe against Raeth because Raeth is epic fail.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Colonel M]

Gonzales would go to Chapter 14 because of the wyverns and because since I'm comparing how well either would do in Chapter 14, I'm assuming they'd be used there (well, not Shin). And Gonzales could use Killer Axe against Raeth because Raeth is epic fail.

You mean Randy?

You know, the Hero that has stats like this:

48 HP | 18 Str | 23 Skl | 18 Spd | 11 Luck | 13 Def | 6 Res

And wield a Light Brand (so no AS loss)???

Gonzales would go to Chapter 14 because of the wyverns and because since I'm comparing how well either would do in Chapter 14, I'm assuming they'd be used there (well, not Shin). And Gonzales could use Killer Axe against Raeth because Raeth is epic fail.

I don't know if I'd take Gonzales. I guess he has some advantage on taking those things on, but at the same time Klein can wipe one off the map with little error. Then again, I can see a reason to pit him near the Mamkute.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

You mean Randy?

You know, the Hero that has stats like this:

48 HP | 18 Str | 23 Skl | 18 Spd | 11 Luck | 13 Def | 6 Res

And wield a Light Brand (so no AS loss)???

Pretty sure he was talking about chapter 14 and 15 at the same time. I think the boss he's talking about is the chapter 15 boss.

[dondon151]

There are so many better, more efficient ways to kill Raeth than to rescue-drop Gonzo, mainly because the only unit that CAN rescue-drop Gonzo is unpromoted Thany. If Gonzo is unpromoted, unpromoted Tate can as well, but in that case you'll have better units to kill Raeth with.