FE6 HM Tier List

[grandjackal]

Your above statements seem a little odd to me. You claim that Klein can use the Brave Bow for greater effect in Sacae, but Igrene is punished for needing the Brave Bow? It seems like a double standard.

It was a rebuttal for Hammerne making it's use felt on Warp when Igrene is needing something like the brave bow in Sacae. But on the other hand Klein's got more accuracy, and Clarine does give him crit. He would have near the same skill Igrene has, just the A with Clarine gives us a nice +7. Still not reliable, but it's there, and it's more than Igrene has, so he has more call on getting it.

I agree with a reshuffling. For example, I'm not sure how Geese is better than Igrene or Ray. He's not that much more durable and he has to take counters, has more accuracy issues than Ray, and has doubling issues. Ray at least has Nosferatu and staves, Igrene doesn't need a promo item and flier effectiveness, Geese has walking on water, which I haven't really found a practicsl use for.

There's that too.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Narga_Rocks]

Two things with this. 1. Warp might not necessarily be in-tact by this chapter, as there are several other uses for it (chapter 19 for Sacae comes to mind, as does chapter 22). 2. A third mobile unit could transport Ray around, and who better to tell mamkutes to get the FUCK off the throne? Ray might just be a special case for this simply because he obliterates any mamkute he happens to glance at. This helps other weapon wielders walk off to blast mamkutes in the way of this chain of assassinations.

This would also coincidentally also allow more legendary weapon use prior to chapter 24, so that other legendaries will be less prone to breaking. Isn't it nice to only need 1 weapon use to destroy something when everyone else needs 2?

Isn't nice to beat the chapter in fewer than 17 turns? Dondon pulled 12 due to warp. Even I can manage 16 thanks to mounts. And you have so many, too. Also, those mamkutes on thrones have over 60 avo, I think. Kind of a bad day for us if we miss while counting on Ray's hit. And with only 10 slots I highly doubt we are bringing both Lou and Ray so no boost to hit there. And you know Ray isn't doubling with a fat -7 to his AS so yeah. And read later about the idea of him OHKOing a throne mamkute.

Yet another plus for Apocalypse, if we had it for chapter 21.

Chapter 23 has a ton of wyverns, too, ya know.

But, we sort of have to wait until after it's gaiden to get it. Luckily, there is another pain in the ass enemy time, Heroes. Ray just dropping 32 damage on them is just nuts. Yet also, another good point, Generals. Ray can actually ORKO these things (though I'm stunned by just how tough these things are). Igrene with her strongest weapon (Miurge, 16 might) couldn't ORKO these 56 HP and 23 Def behemoths even if she had 30 Str. Considering at best that Igrene has 20 Str, she would only do 13x2 damage, 26. Ray with 24 Mag, Lou support and Nosferatu is 35 might to their 11 resistance. He nearly does that in one shot with a non-legendary weapon. *In voice of TF2's The Sniper* Now that's downright embaressin'.

I thought they had over 60 hp when I faced them. Oh well.

However, why would Lou care about using Foreblaze on Wyverns when he's got Aircalibur?

Possible one-hitting on the ones he doesn't double. But then, my Lugh didn't get to be deployed on many maps in Sacae. But Forblaze lets me not care if I didn't get him the levels to double. S Anima for Lugh is like, promotion.

He is too magically weak to OHKO with it, might as well bust out the angel-be-good special (as I'm now calling Aircalibur). 24 effective might, hard not to at least 1RKO wyverns with it. Furthermore, won't break as easily, which saves it for more effective use on mamkutes, as Lou's got a bit more trouble on those since they actually have resistance.

Except how many mamkutes do you actually meet before chapter 24? Like, 15 maybe? Unless you plan on using Lugh on nearly all of them I don't see an issue.

Regardless, Shin will have more hit due to the support of which you forgot to mention.

What support? Sue? no way, not bringing both of them. Fir? Aside from me and Inui and RF who actually uses her? Dayan? Ha. You funny. And that takes care of all of his +2 supports. What's left? Dorothy and Zeis as +1s? I'm sorry, Shin doesn't have supports. Take one of Sue or Shin, whichever has more hit.

Why use the far more expensive weapon though?

More accurate and letting another unit OHKO a weakened enemy with killer instead of silver or with iron instead of steel is a great idea because Nomads have a ton of avo.

Besides, Lou has a better chance of killing with Thunder than Aircalibur thanks to Thunder's crit, of which Ray's support regardless increases the chance of.

True, but it's not like Lugh isn't already able to 2HKO. That's all I'm saying.

Also, I never said Lou ORKOs nomads outside of crit,

Oh? Then what does this mean?

Behold, the +1 might bump allows Lou to ORKO with thunder, and also packing about 11 crit.

typo?

but Ray does help supply him with more enemy phase by bolstering a 3RKO to a 4RKO, and nullifying any crit they might have n Lou. The fact he also helps Lou kill better with a far cheaper weapon is also nice, along with increasing Lou's acc here.

Cheap is irrelevant. If you are using Ray you bought a stack of Nosferatu, probably, and thus can't afford as many aircaliburs. It's a tie at best. Most likely? You have less money because of the Nosferatus. Aircalibur is pretty cheap anyway so who cares? I buy a stack after getting the silver card anyway. I mean, sure, I use Fire and Thunder when I can, but whatever.

And acc is good here. Igrene with her Brave Bow (20 uses, only one of them in existence, you've had it a good long while so it could have some of it's uses worn out by Sacae) has 115 acc, so after nomad 46 avoid is factored in, she would have 69 displayed hit, which is worse than Ray's acc thanks to support.

Well, first off the brave bow has 30 uses. All brave weapons do. I'm kinda worried about her 10 base speed with the thing, though. With a 35% growth she needs 5 speed to not be doubled by even the 18 AS nomads. After chapter 17 there aren't very many Nomads that don't have at least 18 AS. However, I protest that you'd use particularly many of those 30 uses unless you insist on using Klein or Wolt or Dorothy. Shin and Sue don't particularly need it. Before promotion they take -5 and -7 AS respectively from the thing and they are durable enough when they need to be that it's not a great idea. I suppose lots of you use Klein, though, especially you, GJ. But if you are planning to go to Sacae with Igrene I don't think that would be a good plan, so...

But yeah, hit is an issue with all of them. Ray I'm not seeing getting passed B Lugh, though, and you haven't alleviated my worries there. Only +5 cev doesn't quite get Lugh to 0% nor does it get Ray much past Igrene, right?

20/4 Ray has 17 skill and call it 8 luck. 38 base hit. 48 with Lugh. 118 with Nosferatu/Flux. Not really enough of a difference to care much, is it? Don't forget, brave means she ORKOs if she hits twice and her chance to hit at least once is way way better than Ray's chance to hit one out of one.

Then there is killer bow Igrene. Call her level 4 so she has 26 mt and can 2HKO most with killer bows. (36 hp and 8 def goes down to 26 mt and my chapter 20x Nomad had 37 hp and 7 def, so even bless its defence and a guy in 20x only lives by 1 hp so what do you think happens to the earlier ones?) Killer bows have 80 hit so 18.75 skill and 9.6 luck means she likely has either 19 skill or 10 luck. So 38 + 4 = 42 base or 36 + 5 = 41 base hit. At worst? 121 hit. Best part? Can't decide between how she's not doubled and how she has 39 crit against 8 or so luck. For Ray to reliably not get doubled even by the 18 AS Nomads you need him to reach 20/3 and not wield Nosferatu. 10 levels from end of chapter 12 to chapter 17 or 18. Um. Oh, and she'll probably 3HKO the Nomad Troopers (42hp and 12 def is blessed and still dies) while still pulling around 30 crit, so cool beans. Fa is probably her most reasonable support and I don't think I even fielded her much in Sacae despite eventually raising her, so I suppose she is supportless. Certainly not using Sofiya the paper bag.

Regardless of all this however is that if you are REALLY not wanting to expose Ray to more threats, he's nto out of luck by any means. Why? Because he can wait in line for healing, as he can switch to backline healing before it's chosen that he gets healed up. He's free to hang back and wait, because while he's hanging back he's still not being useless. Igrene needs all the healing she can get as she would always be frontline, and considering that with the fact she constantly has 9 crit pinned on her, Igrene will be having more bad days than Ray would, even if she can take an extra round naturally.

Well, I'd recommend using Igrene for much enemy phase except for the whole facing crit from everything thing she's got going on. Which means that I wouldn't use either of them for all that much and may appreciate Ray's ability to 1 range on player phase. Don't think I care too much about his healing, though. E staves and you can buy physic in chapter 18, I think. I love physic, by the way.

That's several things he's got on Igrene, and one thing that is quite nice that very few others can do without being a hindrance in some form or another: He makes Lou more useful than he normally would be in Sacae. He's got no other supporters who don't suck here/are too slow, so that technically IS something that only he, Ray, can do. Igrene does nothing but frontline, and we got Sue/Shin/Klein/whatever ranged guys with good accuracy and crit/can use the Brave Bow we got.

Well, we probably don't have Sue and Klein is facing crit and getting doubled. Clarine could possibly support him, though, but if she isn't doubling then 3HKOing means 3RKOing so yeah.

Well, that and he IS the best for removing mamkutes off the throne, which further allows uses of legendary weapons early on with little impunity.

He's like the worst. First off, the mamkutes on the throne have more hp and res than the rest. +5 res from a throne and they have at least 5 more hp. He is not OHKOing them. Also, I'd rather use Miledy (+5 skl on her S rank actually becomes useful) or even Sue/Shin on them. Second, he's still only got 6 move. The only way for him to get around is being carried, which means he must be dropped before he can attack. Either the turn after or if Lalum is somehow up there so she can dance for him immediately after he gets dropped. But she has 5 more (7 if you gave her boots) so she is often getting carried as well (though frequently take/dropped on the same turn so she doesn't lose a dance turn). Might as well use Dieck/Rutger/Fir so they can Durandal with its 90 hit and their 30 skill (Dieck has less) so that they probably won't miss.

Let's analyze 20/20 Ray (remember, if you are using his Lugh support then you have to carry both of them to each throne if you want to reach it in a reasonable time).

24 skill and 10 luck. 53 base hit. Apocalypse has 80 hit and 59 mt. I'm fairly certain that Mamkutes have at least 60 avo on a throne, so I'll call it 63. 70 listed. One chance. And with 28 magic that's 87 mt. Mamkutes get +5 res from their stone and +5 res from the throne. That's 10. And 72 or 73 hp I think on their thrones (the throne ones have at least 5 more hp than the other ones). That leaves 4 or 5 leeway for the mamkutes own res. Which I think they may have. And if you drop his level to something reasonable like 20/13 or less and he drops to 25 magic. 84 mt. Pretty easy for him to miss the OHKO. And with that -7 AS he's not doubling, either, when they have like 15 spd or something.

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap24.htm

Put your mouse over the throne dudes and check in the brackets.

71 to 73 hp. 7 to 9 res. Then add +5 res for their stone and +5 res for the throne. And 63 to 67 avo.

So low end you are looking at needing 88 mt to OHKO. Ray needs to cap magic. That's low end. The ones that aren't low end need more than he can give. So he has bad to mediocre accuracy and gets one shot at it and can't even kill any of them and needs to be transported to reach the throne in a non-sucky timeframe and on top of all that he needs you to deploy another guy like him (except Lugh doubles) if you want him to have reasonable accuracy and a chance to OHKO any of them without needing to cap his magic.

Basically, Ray is horrible at getting mamkutes off the throne. Might as well just deploy Lugh with Fire to soften Mamkutes for other units to one hit with good S weapons like Maltet.

Igrene using Brave Bow? Er, she starts with C Bows. I HIGHLY doubt she will hit B by Sacae. It was enough of a struggle to get close to D Swords and, yes, A Bows (no joke: I still don't have A Bows).

Ill read the rest later.

How did you not get Shin to A Bows yet? What did you do? Well, I suppose you are trying to get him to D swords. I have to ask why, though. Are you hoping to reach C for killers? I don't see the point. Fair amount of lances in chapter 21 and 23. Chapter 22 it could be useful, maybe, but Dieck and Rutger are great there, too. You don't even have any supports for Shin so it's not like he'll be dodging Berserkers or anything. Better to use Rutger with A Clarine.

Back to Shin and A bows, though, he starts at D and gets +1 on promotion. Needs 100 wexp. 50 attacks because he doubles so very much. Probably fewer because of KOs. If he isn't doubling because of a KO it's +2 wexp anyway.

But yes, I double check my facts now.

...Just...not all of your facts.

cough-20 hit braves-cough

Edited April 21, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Isn't nice to beat the chapter in fewer than 17 turns? Dondon pulled 12 due to warp. Even I can manage 16 thanks to mounts. And you have so many, too. Also, those mamkutes on thrones have over 60 avo, I think. Kind of a bad day for us if we miss while counting on Ray's hit. And with only 10 slots I highly doubt we are bringing both Lou and Ray so no boost to hit there. And you know Ray isn't doubling with a fat -7 to his AS so yeah. And read later about the idea of him OHKOing a throne mamkute.

Of which I'll get to that.

But really, we have plenty of slots, and so few combat units we actually need to use. We've got fliers...

Chapter 23 has a ton of wyverns, too, ya know.

Good point I suppose.

I thought they had over 60 hp when I faced them. Oh well.

You're thinking of Murdock.

Possible one-hitting on the ones he doesn't double. But then, my Lugh didn't get to be deployed on many maps in Sacae. But Forblaze lets me not care if I didn't get him the levels to double. S Anima for Lugh is like, promotion.

I've ran the numbers, he doesn't quite OHKO with Foreblaze on the enemies you mention.

Except how many mamkutes do you actually meet before chapter 24? Like, 15 maybe? Unless you plan on using Lugh on nearly all of them I don't see an issue.

Fine, how about enemies he can't double like Heroes (again, dangerous threats to our team), or things he could use an extra 5 avoid on (essentially giving him a B support with a non-avoid unit)? I think it would see better use in chapter 22, considering Aircalibur works well enough for chapter 21.

What support? Sue? no way, not bringing both of them. Fir? Aside from me and Inui and RF who actually uses her? Dayan? Ha. You funny. And that takes care of all of his +2 supports. What's left? Dorothy and Zeis as +1s? I'm sorry, Shin doesn't have supports. Take one of Sue or Shin, whichever has more hit.

After all that time arguing, I forget that Sue's still lower mid even in Sacae -_-;;

More accurate and letting another unit OHKO a weakened enemy with killer instead of silver or with iron instead of steel is a great idea because Nomads have a ton of avo.

True, but it's not like Lugh isn't already able to 2HKO. That's all I'm saying.

I have shown the accuracy, it's not like he's exactly blind with thunder. But fine, good point, it's possible he can do more damage with something else. There is also the cheaper Elfire counterpart which does the same damage, and Lou's still pretty accurate with it, thanks to Ray.

Oh? Then what does this mean?

typo?

Yes, it was a typo x.x

Cheap is irrelevant. If you are using Ray you bought a stack of Nosferatu, probably, and thus can't afford as many aircaliburs. It's a tie at best. Most likely? You have less money because of the Nosferatus. Aircalibur is pretty cheap anyway so who cares? I buy a stack after getting the silver card anyway. I mean, sure, I use Fire and Thunder when I can, but whatever.

Considering Ray wouldn't be doubling with Nosferatu, it wouldn't be like you have to buy a stack, just maybe a few. Then considering that in Sacae that Lou wouldn't need Aircalibur as much, you could get away with running a bit cheaper, as it's not like it's hard to take down a nomad when they're at half health.

Well, first off the brave bow has 30 uses. All brave weapons do. I'm kinda worried about her 10 base speed with the thing, though. With a 35% growth she needs 5 speed to not be doubled by even the 18 AS nomads. After chapter 17 there aren't very many Nomads that don't have at least 18 AS. However, I protest that you'd use particularly many of those 30 uses unless you insist on using Klein or Wolt or Dorothy. Shin and Sue don't particularly need it. Before promotion they take -5 and -7 AS respectively from the thing and they are durable enough when they need to be that it's not a great idea. I suppose lots of you use Klein, though, especially you, GJ. But if you are planning to go to Sacae with Igrene I don't think that would be a good plan, so...

Soooo, this means that Igrene is not adding much flexibility to the team, whereas Ray could with his support to Lou giving him more acc, a defense to bump him from 3 to 4RKO, and nullifying whatever crit chances they may have had on Lou, while not quite being a slouch himself.

But yeah, hit is an issue with all of them. Ray I'm not seeing getting passed B Lugh, though, and you haven't alleviated my worries there. Only +5 cev doesn't quite get Lugh to 0% nor does it get Ray much past Igrene, right?

Now thinking about it, I wouldn't stretch it bpast B quite yet, and frankly I don't even need to. Lou's got about 15 luck, so +5 brings him to 20 crit evade. Unless the skill gap between nomadsand troopers is a possible SIX, Lou will never see crit. Ever.

Get Ray much past Igrene? The boosts between A and B are not exactly huge.

20/4 Ray has 17 skill and call it 8 luck. 38 base hit. 48 with Lugh. 118 with Nosferatu/Flux. Not really enough of a difference to care much, is it? Don't forget, brave means she ORKOs if she hits twice and her chance to hit at least once is way way better than Ray's chance to hit one out of one.

Again though, why would I field her over Klein (who could do the same at base with his 15 Str) who's got more acc by now (proc'd some skill, far more luck, also supports and his own ice affinity), and THEN give the brave bow to the clearly inferior one? At least with Ray I have plenty of excuses (helps Lou perform better, another heavy chipper/healer, can be self-healing so he doesn't need constant staff attention).

Then there is killer bow Igrene. Call her level 4 so she has 26 mt and can 2HKO most with killer bows. (36 hp and 8 def goes down to 26 mt and my chapter 20x Nomad had 37 hp and 7 def, so even bless its defence and a guy in 20x only lives by 1 hp so what do you think happens to the earlier ones?) Killer bows have 80 hit so 18.75 skill and 9.6 luck means she likely has either 19 skill or 10 luck. So 38 + 4 = 42 base or 36 + 5 = 41 base hit. At worst? 121 hit. Best part? Can't decide between how she's not doubled and how she has 39 crit against 8 or so luck. For Ray to reliably not get doubled even by the 18 AS Nomads you need him to reach 20/3 and not wield Nosferatu. 10 levels from end of chapter 12 to chapter 17 or 18. Um. Oh, and she'll probably 3HKO the Nomad Troopers (42hp and 12 def is blessed and still dies) while still pulling around 30 crit, so cool beans. Fa is probably her most reasonable support and I don't think I even fielded her much in Sacae despite eventually raising her, so I suppose she is supportless. Certainly not using Sofiya the paper bag.

As nice as that Fa support would be, she's not exactly useful here due to being stuck with 5 move and melee.

But fine, let's assume that Ray is not quite able to avoid so many doubles, it would be even more an excuse to equip him with Nosferatu as now he would still be 4RKOd (aside from the occasional miss, but you'd basically be asking him to miss twice). Considering he's still leveling here, he could eventually get the speed to avoid it, and Nosferatu would essentially nullify the attacks that hit but didn't double, further increasing his durability indirectly. With Nosferatu, you'd basically have to say he either misses twice, or misses then gets crit hit. Considering out frontline sniper, all it takes is 1 crit to fuck her over, as since she's front line, when a crit hits, it won't take much after that for other nomads to turn into a pincushion.

Well, I'd recommend using Igrene for much enemy phase except for the whole facing crit from everything thing she's got going on. Which means that I wouldn't use either of them for all that much and may appreciate Ray's ability to 1 range on player phase. Don't think I care too much about his healing, though. E staves and you can buy physic in chapter 18, I think. I love physic, by the way.

We all love physic, but why use it if you don't have to? The fact that Ray can save you uses on physic for when you would actually need it (emergencies at long range) only adds to his flexibility, of which Igrene has no answer to.

Well, we probably don't have Sue and Klein is facing crit and getting doubled. Clarine could possibly support him, though, but if she isn't doubling then 3HKOing means 3RKOing so yeah.

Consider that Clarine is a Valkyrie, of which levels faster than other promoted classes. If she's not doubling by now, it won't exactly take long.

He's like the worst. First off, the mamkutes on the throne have more hp and res than the rest. +5 res from a throne and they have at least 5 more hp. He is not OHKOing them. Also, I'd rather use Miledy (+5 skl on her S rank actually becomes useful) or even Sue/Shin on them. Second, he's still only got 6 move. The only way for him to get around is being carried, which means he must be dropped before he can attack. Either the turn after or if Lalum is somehow up there so she can dance for him immediately after he gets dropped. But she has 5 more (7 if you gave her boots) so she is often getting carried as well (though frequently take/dropped on the same turn so she doesn't lose a dance turn). Might as well use Dieck/Rutger/Fir so they can Durandal with its 90 hit and their 30 skill (Dieck has less) so that they probably won't miss.

Motherfuck, I can't believe I forgot about that bullshit 5 Res off thrones. I would try to think up how else to manage this, but considering the whole 5 Res denies Ray thing, I'm a bit pissed.

Let's analyze 20/20 Ray (remember, if you are using his Lugh support then you have to carry both of them to each throne if you want to reach it in a reasonable time).

24 skill and 10 luck. 53 base hit. Apocalypse has 80 hit and 59 mt. I'm fairly certain that Mamkutes have at least 60 avo on a throne, so I'll call it 63. 70 listed. One chance. And with 28 magic that's 87 mt. Mamkutes get +5 res from their stone and +5 res from the throne. That's 10. And 72 or 73 hp I think on their thrones (the throne ones have at least 5 more hp than the other ones). That leaves 4 or 5 leeway for the mamkutes own res. Which I think they may have. And if you drop his level to something reasonable like 20/13 or less and he drops to 25 magic. 84 mt. Pretty easy for him to miss the OHKO. And with that -7 AS he's not doubling, either, when they have like 15 spd or something.

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap24.htm

Put your mouse over the throne dudes and check in the brackets.

71 to 73 hp. 7 to 9 res. Then add +5 res for their stone and +5 res for the throne. And 63 to 67 avo.

So low end you are looking at needing 88 mt to OHKO. Ray needs to cap magic. That's low end. The ones that aren't low end need more than he can give. So he has bad to mediocre accuracy and gets one shot at it and can't even kill any of them and needs to be transported to reach the throne in a non-sucky timeframe and on top of all that he needs you to deploy another guy like him (except Lugh doubles) if you want him to have reasonable accuracy and a chance to OHKO any of them without needing to cap his magic.

Yet another reason I hate that 5 Res throne.

...Just...not all of your facts.

cough-20 hit braves-cough

So my mind slips a couple times ;;>> I admit I have crap memory.

[Colonel M]

I know this is rather dead, but with the recent playlogs I think that we can conclude some of the following information:

- Supports. Obviously the Dieck / Clarine / Rutger support triangle was already dead, but I think after seeing turn counts, roughly, for the games and such gives us a clearer idea of what supports are viable and what levels they will be receiving it at what chapter. Anything with +2 is the most viable (and realistic) option. Matched movement is highly recommended as well. Similar functions (like Lot and Dieck are units that frontline) also matter a lot. Clarine / Rutger support was one of the hardest of the supports for me to make. Though, to be fair, I think that Thany / Lot support shouldn't be pondered on much.

- Armor Knights are completely not viable for efficient play. Very, very far from it. All you need to do is glance at some of GJ's turncounts. I point to Chapter 16 in particular. Despite me taking 19 turns, if it wasn't for me assraping myself in funds back in Chapter 13, I would've gotten a much smaller turncount here. The point of Wendy needing the Triangle Attack for offense as well as Bors and Barth is a complete joke within itself.

- Weapon Ranks. I wouldn't go overhyping units gaining weapon levels very easily. Units such as Dieck don't have the easiest of times building up Axe rank. While chucking Hand Axes help, it's hard to see, for example, Killer Axes in Chapter 14. I think most of us realize this overall, but first person that says Marcus gets D Axes by Chapter 6 I'm probably going to come close to shooting them in the foot without providing hefty evidence. Then the explanation as to how it affected the efficiency of the chapters overall (I couldn't find that many instances to pull out the Iron Axe except in Chapter 3).

- Regards to Accuracy. Seriously guys. Unless you're using Fire or Iron Sword you won't find many instances where you'll have perfect accuracy whatsoever. While I agree that Axes have shaky issues with hitting things, I'm not seeing how it suddenly counts as auto-failing; even for Gonzales's sake. I think Axes hurt you a lot in Sacae though. The only time where it plays as a strength is in Chapter 19. Chapter 20 has the icky Swordmasters and such, but I doubt Swordreaver would quite knock them to a favorable Hit ratio. I also find myself using 2 range often. DEFINITELY in Sacae. Even with Hand Axe's mediocre accuracy, I think that's what makes and breaks the Rutgar > Dieck argument, which I did ponder in my mind for a while. To be fair, though, I did highly consider Rutgar > Dieck for Sacae's list mainly because of Monke and Gel alone.

-----

Now that we got the random stuff out of the way, let's see what we needed. Ah yes, the Mid Tiers. I brought it up at FEG. Not many exactly objected to the idea (obviously) and many more or less agreed with the propositions that were made. So to show you:

Upper Mid

Thany

Lot

Saul

Ellen

Roy

Fir

Klein

Zealot

Lugh

Tate

Cecilia

Niime

Mid

Bartre

Igrene

Garret

Noah

Ray

Fa

Lower Mid

Ward

Oujay

Geese

Treck

Lilina

Douglas

Barth

I forgot to mention that I might see Garret > Igrene for Ilia's list. I like the idea as to how he has 15 Con, which is enough for unpromoted Zeiss / Thany / Tate to carry him onto Peaks; a big problem that I found with Gonzales to be honest. Fa is debatable for Mid Tier atm, but I put some thought about her gaining some levels against Mages and then propping Boots / Angelic Robes to make her usable in Chapter 24 / Final. Just enough Angelic Robes to survive a round against a Mamkute (which, tbh, I don't think it takes that much. The strongest Mamkute has 44 Atk. Fa has 16 HP | 17 Def at base. So she needs 2 Angelic Robes total to survive the strongest impact. Or 1 and ~4 Levels. So there is some merit here, but obviously a hefty opportunity cost to come with it.

-----

Adding other things that I wanted: Yodel in the Mid Tier. My partial argument:

At the moment, Yodel is within the same tier as Dayan. :?

But let me review why I think Yodel is Mid Tier material. Simply look at who is in Mid Tier. Most of these characters do not have major costs for their contributions. Obviously, for some like Noah, Ray, and Fa, they would have to take CEXP to a certain extent to contribute further in the game. Still, look at Garret. Chapter 21 it's not difficult to ferry him onto a Peak and have him draw in Wyvern Riders / Lords. It's probably the best idea since he's sitting with ~85 Avoid at base (this also includes WTA). Now obviously the Lords have a better chance of hitting him. They have ~105 Hit. That still converts to 20% Displayed, 8.20% True. The Steel Lance Wyverns have 2% Displayed. <_< As far as Garret surviving a Wyvern Lord in one round (this is actually necessary), he would survive. 40 Atk vs. 55 HP | 13 Def, 13 due to WTA + Peak bonus. So long as the Killer Lance Wyverns don't connect (or you face two Wyvern Lords at the same time), Garret should comfortably be able to take these guys on. He can also OHKO Wyvern Lords with Armads, which is still useful to note.

So that's just giving you an idea. So now Yodel. This guy joins in the same chapter. A Light, S Staves. For starters, he can use the Saint's Staff. I know what you're thinking, a complete joke. Still, consider that it completely heals and cures status for every single unit on the field barring Yodel. So theoretically you could use it two times between Chapter 21 and 22 then use up the last of it in 23-24. Granted that you might not even use the 2 uses in Chapters 21 and 22, but it gives the freedom of your other healers to do other actions, such as Niime attacking an enemy from 2 range. The Saint's Staff doesn't have that much to hype about, but it's still a positive contribution nevertheless.

Still, the main point is the Staves in general. He has a range of 14 with the Warp Staff (15 if we count his starting square). Niime won't "crush" him in range until she obtains Apocalypse, which is Chapter 22. Still, consider that Yodel is likely your second best candidate for Warp in general. Clarine would have to build absurd levels just to even reach a range of 14. 20/10 Clarine (which IMO is about borderline impossible) only stands to have a range of 11, 12 if we consider her starting square. Keep in mind this also applies to Rescue, which is very useful in Chapter 22 with the units on the switches to open Zephiel's doors. Also consider that he's the second best candidate for status staves since Saul would need to be 20/16 to match Yodel's base Mag. I think that's stating a lot as is.

The main is that Yodel's contributions, while Niime kind of overshadows them, is not so great that she should be crushing Yodel in tier position. Yodel does lose overall, but he's still not far behind from her contributions upon join time. He's still got Staff rank, which is an infinite way to help with efficiency (Warp alone is substantial, Rescue is also good). When you're bragging second best staff user in the game without massive favoritism, that's still pretty useful in my opinion.

If you're asking "where to put him", that's a good question. I'd say definitely over Noah, but I also wouldn't say that him over units such as Bartre are that unreasonable.

Other comments (not adding GJs here atm):

Actually, Clarine and Saul aren't even guaranteed to reach S staves. You can laugh at this, but under the most efficient playstyles it's very possible. If you want your healers to be viable for combat, then that requires a lot of intentional staff abuse, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but under the bare minimum conditions it is possible, even likely, for a healer to not reach S staves.

(Consider that my only S rank staff user in Final was Yodel. Yeah. Clarine was about 1/7 of the way from A to S. Niime was about halfway from A to S. Cecilia was only halfway from C to B.)

Just to add, Yodel is pretty useful in Chapter 23 as well because of Holy Maiden. Chapter 23 has 3 Sleep Druids and 1 Berserk Druid, and Holy Maiden can save a lot of time on Restores / Barriers, you can simply send your units in and heal them on the next player phase. It saves quite a few turns that way.

Adding more to this, assuming that you're using Niime out in the mountains to build up her Dark rank, Yodel is useful for Warping Roy without having to trigger 2 turns of reinforcements or forcing another unit to carry Roy over near the throne (which if you're attempting to only trigger the reinforcements for a turn, isn't that possible unless you get the Boots over there somehow).

Obviously open for more discussion.

-----

Next up: Upper Mid reshuffle. This is where everything, and I mean everything gets tricky. So I'm not going to go totally in-depth, but possible forsees:

- Thany to High Tier. If Marcus is up there for his turncount contributions, then there absolutely zero reason why Thany does not belong there either.

- Saul and Ellen > Lot.

- Fir > Roy.

- Klein > Fir, Sacae maybe Ilia. This is very debatable (sorry for re-opening this grave).

- Zealot up a bit more. I'd say under Klein, at best though.

- Overall a possibility of Fir > Lot, but I think there's a lot of doubt clogged into my mind (I found Lot more useful than Rutger in Sacae so long as we weren't talking about bosses). Granted, Rutger was useful in Chapter 20 obviously. There's a lot of things that I'm trying to hammer around with this, so don't rush me in this subject. I want good arguments on either side of this though. None of this Inui-hype.

Other things that could be considered:

- Echinda dropping to Upper Mid on Sacae. Granted, Killer Axes is boss. What isn't boss, though, is her needing a lot of resources and levels to be "great" here. She faces crit rates and is inferior to a support-built Dieck (which I would have paired with Thany or Lot. C Klein isn't far from impossible since it's 40+1). She's fine in Ilia IMO. All she really needs there is a little love and a Body Ring. After Chapter 21, Speedwings are available for whatever Speed she desperately needs.

- Gonzales dropping in Sacae? I only found him "useful" in Chapter 19, and granted I didn't really deploy him in 20, but I place hefty doubt on him being great here either. Not really having a support option to remove his crit rate problems doesn't help either, though obviously he can live through one. He just can't sit through a massive assault.

I believe that's it so far. I know there is a lot to digest here, but looking for your thought process on this overall.

[grandjackal]

Before we jump the gun here, let me fix your armor knight statement, not that I'm going to say they're good, because I admit they aren't good by most means.

Their problem is they're incredibly situational. They're dependent on the map they're on and the idea that you are saving up time by letting them sit in until you get 3 lategame units to eventually replace them. They need to be in a situation where they are split up from the main team to take care of something, as long as their team has no effect on the actual turncount (chapter 12 is the only one that comes to mind, perhaps 12x if you aren't going to bother training units that could have future uses over them). None are going above lower mid for certain, but I wish to say this. They are too dependent on all being together, since I doubt they'd function well on their own.

I feel Boris and Barth should switch places. Boris actually has some nice uses early on that actually can save you time that doesn't directly involve him. He doesn't exactly kill turncount early on if used, and by the time he and Barth meet, Boris will be superior (if you can call it superior when you're still dependent on your fellow armors from that point on, though he'd be far less so with the early promotion, since he'd at least have speed to double some steel axe pirates, as pathetic as that advantage sounds). To list those examples.

-Chapter 1 his use isn't combat, but what he does do is block a side from which an enemy can attack someone, allowing us to be not so dependent on Marcus and not fear death so much, which can possibly earn us more EXP than usual through chip exp. Not a huge advantage, but it's there since your force is so sparse. If we were dependent on his combat here, oh boy...

-Chapter 3, you can give him a javelin and a vulnery or two and have him go get Lou by himself, letting Marcus charge up the center, or whoever else was usually sent to get Lou. He even starts basically positioned to go get him. Lou is not contributing anything important to this chapter anyways, so whatever time Boris gets there doesn't matter, as long as he can get there before the end of the chapter. Of which he can. This allows us to get to the chest room faster, or getting the boss off the throne faster, what have you, since our better units are not off doing chores.

-Chapter 4 he's simply tough enough even at base. He's nto fantastic, but the action is on mounts so it's always upfront so his move is of little issue combat-wise, and if anyone's in danger he can just rescue them or block a side, ensuring their safety since most enemies are swordies or not quite musclebound lancers.

-Chapter 5 you can fly Marcus with some sort of ranged weapon to the fort near the boss to kill the ranged units. With a small part of your force sent up north to draw in enemies up north as to leave the south area near the boss more barren, you can actually go through the door with reletive ease. Boris helps here at the chokepoint, as he laughs at nomads and mercs more than most other units. While it may or may not be faster, it's not slower (though in my playthrough I executed it poorly as I just had Marcus get rescue-dropped against the door as to kill the ranged units while not opening the door, which means most of my turns were spent enemy phase killing a few units when I could have just flown him on the fort), and it does get you more overall EXP, which helps in future progress. Boris for being one of the best at the wall to help Marcus sandwhich crush the mercs and nomads at the door I feel should be noted because of this.

From there on it's especially iffy, but he is capable of at least 12 by the isles, we get this.

33.9 HP, 13.3 Str, 9.3 Skill, 10.4 Speed, 9.5 Luck, 18.85 Def, 4.1 Res

It's basically 10/1Barth with 1 more skill, 7 more luck, and 2 more speed with the same defense and 4 more HP.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch9.html

Advantages over Barth are doubling steel bowmen, axers, and having more speed for more of the isles (such as doubling steel axers in chapter 10, and some in 11), and considering Barth could 2HKO those as he doesn't double, Boris does have quite a lead here. I won't hype 5 more acc, but it's there. Perhaps chapter 9 slow end hand pirates could be added if they have 6 speed (which I doubt).

Obviously shaky from there, but I'm just asking Boris and Barth switch places, as Barth doesn't have spots of earlygame, and Boris beats him on the isles pretty bad with resources.

Also to clarify I was absent minded with my chapter 16 playthrough, but I will say that even if I wasn't, my turncount would have still sucked there. It would have at best been 24, I just didnt give a shit because I hate chapter 16. I think a better example is 16X, where unless Barth is level 19, he can't actually get past the first Bolting sage as that guy doubles Barth, which obviously annihilates Barth.

They didn't kill turncounts for some chapters I did, they just don't do it any faster than non-dependent units, and those non-dependent units also don't suck in chapters where armors would.

So, Boris should be quite low in lower mid, near the bottom where Barth is.

Barth in low where Boris used to be.

Wendy stays where she is.

[Narga_Rocks]

I disagree on the Marcus axe issue. I see little reason you can't pull it off for late chapter 6. I had him with D axes for the start of chapter 7 (D in chapter 6 is irrelevant) and C axes for chapter 13. Chapter 3 is an obvious Axe heaven. Chapter 4 has places where you are either going iron axe (if he can double) or maybe silver lance, but iron axe has better accuracy. Chapter 6 is another axe heaven, though javelins against the mages is a better idea than hand axes. However, hand axes have +2 mt and +5 hit over javelins when facing lances. Chapter 4 you probably want javelins for the fort, but GJ swears by hand axes there. The mercs need to die, though, and javelins have +25 hit and +1 mt on them here. Chapter 1 is obviously mostly swords (you don't even have axes anyway) but even chapter 2 starts giving you a bunch of soldiers you may want axes for.

Otherwise, aside from Klein > Fir I can't say I disagree with you here. Dieck should not have killers for chapter 14. Did someone actually say that once? That's funny. It's a struggle to get him to C for the end of chapter 15, and that is with dropping him in the middle of 14x with a hand axe after the Berserker leaves the area.

Oh, and accuracy actually isn't that bad. Alan and Lance can even start pulling 100%s with steel swords in the isles against all those axes. Marcus has the easiest time and can even get you a bunch of near 100s with iron axes against most lance wielders. Even the cavs. And there are times I think it's better to give Dieck or Rutger an iron sword and let them weaken something guaranteed rather than gamble on the hit rates of iron blades or steel blades. It is disappointing what kind of hit the cavs have with iron lances on mercs, though. I contemplated bringing out slim lances (same mt as iron swords against sword users and 5 more hit, too) for those, actually.

[Colonel M]

Trust me, you want Javelins in Chapter 5. There is nothing worse but facing WTD against Mercenaries, which aren't easy to hit in the first place. I'm also skeptical on Iron Axe mainly because Silver Lance has the better Mt against the Cavalry, which I feel is necessary to be honest. Marcus could probably have D Axes in Chapter 7, but I'm not going to lie: I see very little point to it. Well I guess there's the Cavaliers, but they have to have Javelins whipped out too. In Chapter 3 and 6, Axes are probably the optimal weapon of choice here. Javelins have an easier time hitting Archers though. In 7 I'd still pull out the Javelin faster just because Mages are the biggest pain in the ass to face overall.

I'm not sure exactly why you disagree with Klein > Fir for Sacae, but I guess I'm willing to hear it. Granted that I didn't put an argument out.

[dondon151]

D axes Marcus is definitely doable in late chapter 6. Mine had ~40 WEXP at E going into chapter 6 and ~40 WEXP at D going into chapter 7 (yeah, he gained an entire weapon rank in one chapter). As long as you have him solo up the middle with 2 Hand Axes.

Hit rates are only good if you have swords + lots of skl or if you have +hit supports. Everything else tends to be very unreliable.

[Colonel M]

I guess I'll retract my statement with Marcus then. It was only pointing out an instance like "he had D Axes in Chapter 6 exactly". I guess it's doable if Marcus procced Spd since that would allow him to double 7 and 8 Spd Cavaliers.

[Narga_Rocks]

I guess I'll retract my statement with Marcus then. It was only pointing out an instance like "he had D Axes in Chapter 6 exactly". I guess it's doable if Marcus procced Spd since that would allow him to double 7 and 8 Spd Cavaliers.

Well, if he proc'd speed you don't even want him using silver lance. It's a waste. He will burn through it quickly and he'll kill so much that your other units won't have anything to do. Iron axe will drop things to OHKO range and will be more accurate. It's simple enough to arrange for Dieck to take on sword cavs and Marcus take on lance cavs in chapter 4. Much better for Marcus to be near guaranteed to bring something into KO range than for

Anyway, Klein is near-obsolete from chapter 15 on if you have shin and the chapter 15 archer woman. Before then I suppose an extra bow person in chapter 12 and 13 and 14 might be helpful, though I can't say the same for chapter 12x or 14x. Klein at least has silver bow and 3 move in desert so that likely puts him one up on shin there. But then his usefulness is gone.

And is anyone disagreeing with Thany in high? You could even leave her unpromoted and with boots she becomes a 9 move Gonzo mover.

[grandjackal]

I agree with Thany in high for being able to transport nearly anything.

[dondon151]

I always operate under the assumption that 8 + 8 + 7 is superior to 6 + 8 + 9 in terms of Boots allocation. I suppose your argument is more valid in this game than in FE8 because there are no GKs (if you give Boots to a 6 move unit, it still can't rescue + canto), but in the latter situation you end up either having a unit that sticks out like a sore thumb (Boots on an 8 move combat unit) and/or a unit that requires rescue efforts to keep up (the 6 move combat unit).

I wouldn't say that Klein is guaranteed to be obsoleted by Shin. Shin might not even be used. And Klein can pretty much be deployed throughout the whole game without any sort of investment whatsoever.

[Narga_Rocks]

I always operate under the assumption that 8 + 8 + 7 is superior to 6 + 8 + 9 in terms of Boots allocation. I suppose your argument is more valid in this game than in FE8 because there are no GKs (if you give Boots to a 6 move unit, it still can't rescue + canto), but in the latter situation you end up either having a unit that sticks out like a sore thumb (Boots on an 8 move combat unit) and/or a unit that requires rescue efforts to keep up (the 6 move combat unit).

I wouldn't say that Klein is guaranteed to be obsoleted by Shin. Shin might not even be used. And Klein can pretty much be deployed throughout the whole game without any sort of investment whatsoever.

I worry about his speed, though. He'll not be doubling wyverns in 21 and 23. Probably not even in sacae, though at times 39 + 16 = 55 is capable of OHKOing wyverns, I suppose. Not normally, though. I would think it doesn't take long before even sue is outperforming him if she is there. Granted she'll probably never be there, though, so it comes back to shin and the other sniper.

Anyway, in this game I'd think Thany or Miledy may be better for boots. For one thing, Thany can't go anywhere and live. Giving her an extra 2 move allows her to dump units in places and then get further out of the way. I can't help but appreciate Thany with 10 move in chapter 15 dropping Dieck on a mountain on turn 1 with Lalum's help (Lalum still in range to get Percival) and starting on those enemies near the boss. I just think it makes ferrying easier and there isn't much point (normally) in boosting the move of a 6 move unit since they get ferried a bunch when necessary.

[-Cynthia-]

Fir is a useful bosskiller (and can double Nomads) in Sacae. Klein can counter Nomads, but he also gets doubled all over the place.

Overall I like the changes, though I'm a little questionable on Noah being an entire tier over Treck. You also might be a little too hard on OJ, though I've never actually used OJ so I can't really comment (I may have to do a playthrough with a lot of these Mid tiers at some point).

I see Ray's position relative to Igrene the same as it is on the current list, he's better than her in Ilia, but probably worse than her in Sacae (he can't Nosferatu Nomads very well). I'm very skeptical about Garret's position. He's too slow to double, has severe hit issues (possibly some of the worst in the game since he has support problems). In Sacae he's also getting doubled all over the place, which makes his durability bad as well.

I still think Zeiss should be in Lower Mid. Even if he can't cut it as a combat unit(which I'm not sure of, he does have great HM bonuses), his ferrying powers are pretty good in the terrain heavy maps that come. It's better than what a loser like Barth ever does anyway.

Edited May 12, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

I worry about his speed, though. He'll not be doubling wyverns in 21 and 23. Probably not even in sacae, though at times 39 + 16 = 55 is capable of OHKOing wyverns, I suppose. Not normally, though. I would think it doesn't take long before even sue is outperforming him if she is there. Granted she'll probably never be there, though, so it comes back to shin and the other sniper.

Igrene doesn't have access to Silver Bow. If you're investing in Klein, he should have a bit more than 16 str, and he has Brave Bow access to top it off, which 2HKOs the WL in chapter 18S, for example. Igrene also has B bows, but her defensive parameters are about equivalent to Klein's. The best thing about him is his easily attainable Clarine support, though - 5 cev at C plus 13 base luk renders him completely immune to crits (he still faces 1 crit from the odd NT, but he also has 50% luck growth) and he is just barely 5HKO'd by 19 atk nomads (assuming at least 33 HP, 10 def). Even if they double him, he 2HKOs them back with Brave Bow with 80 hit (more if he's gained any levels or has higher than a single C Clarine).

I still maintain that having Fir is largely superfluous due to already having Rutger.

Edited May 12, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

There's a lot to digest, so I'll start from wherever:

Well, if he proc'd speed you don't even want him using silver lance. It's a waste. He will burn through it quickly and he'll kill so much that your other units won't have anything to do. Iron axe will drop things to OHKO range and will be more accurate. It's simple enough to arrange for Dieck to take on sword cavs and Marcus take on lance cavs in chapter 4. Much better for Marcus to be near guaranteed to bring something into KO range than for

That depends more or less on the situation. I would argue that he was using Iron Axe anyway when he was doubling. Still, there is the Silver Lance for the instant KO if necessary. Otherwise you'd have to use the Steel Axe like dondon did if he wasn't doubling or whatnot. Granted, I think the Iron Axe is a little safer, but Steel Axe does have a bit more Mt onto it.

@ The People Ragging On Klein Club: Yes I understand that, as of right now, I look a little biased against Fir. Still, let's put our heads together and see what would make Fir a good bosskilling unit. Let's see, she needs 24 Spd at the bar minimum, 25 to assure doubling Monke. This is placing the fact on having the Wo Dao uses left onto her. She obviously does good on Chapter 17Xs boss, but she does terrible against Arcard. After that, she would have to jump 4-6 levels to consistently keep on track with the bosses. Then, in all honesty, after Chapter 19 bosses don't become very difficult. Murdock can be ganged upon by anyone using Armorslayer, for example. Fir is not really helping us in 20X either: the chances are we're using the Warpskip option here with Miledy flying over to the boss (assuming she gets the Boots). So she's left with 17X's, which even to say that Miledy has ~55% Displayed with the Iron Sword and can at least outdamage Fir in single hits (obviously if Fir criticals, Miledy is being outdamaged). Then it's basically single hitting Gel (and risking a crit chance still, nevertheless. Not to mention that a Crit can actually OHKO her unless we plop something like 2 Robes on her) and aiding with Armorslayer on Roartz.

She does have some boss killing utility, but it really is attempting to stretch the dollar bill here. I'll admit Monke is significant and at least there are a few other nice things (not needing the support near you on Roartz and co is actually nice). Still, it's to the extent of how much we're going to overlook at it.

As for Klein, believe it or not, he's actually not as terrible as you guys put it. Think Brave Bow here. This is like Klein's PRF weapon. There's not a chance Shin is touching this without an early promotion as of yet, and Klein still has a slight edge with the weapon (15-16/1 Shin matches Klein's base Str). Klein also has a lightning fast support with Clarine. Unlike Clarine / Rutger, this is actually happening at a rapid pace. This gives partial Hit / full Def / full CEV. The latter two are very crucial for Sacae as well.

As for missing on doubling Wyvern Lords, forget that. Think about how much damage Klein does in one shot safely with the Silver Bow. We're talking 55 Atk with this fucker. Then in instances such as Chapter 22 Klein can make work with the Heroes from 2 range.

I get that Klein does have some disadvantages, and yeah maybe Fir > Klein is still believable in some aspects. I guess I'm still too shallow with Fir, so just feel free to punch me in the face if I sound bad.

Overall I like the changes, though I'm a little questionable on Noah being an entire tier over Treck. You also might be a little too hard on OJ, though I've never actually used OJ so I can't really comment (I may have to do a playthrough with a lot of these Mid tiers at some point).

I'm not too sure on OJ either. Looks like he can Armorslayer a couple of things on his joining chapter. Granted he can't take more than one hit from them. Then it's just iffy AS until he gains his levels at a rapid pace. I'd have to have some evidence with him.

With Noah, the main thing is the Sword level advantage over Treck. It's pretty significant IMO. Noah's base Spd also does "okay" with doubling Steel Axe Pirates / Fighters too. Treck needs to go to ~Level 4-10 just to match Noah's base Spd at that point. Steel Sword gives Noah 17 Atk (16 + 1 w/WTA). To match that, Treck needs to be around Level 11 or 12.

I see Ray's position relative to Igrene the same as it is on the current list, he's better than her in Ilia, but probably worse than her in Sacae (he can't Nosferatu Nomads very well). I'm very skeptical about Garret's position. He's too slow to double, has severe hit issues (possibly some of the worst in the game since he has support problems). In Sacae he's also getting doubled all over the place, which makes his durability bad as well.

I'll grant you Ray > Igrene in Ilia. I think that's agreeable.

With Garret, in Ilia, think further out of the box here. Peaks in particular. Chapter 17 Sacae, Chapter 17 Ilia, Chapter 19 Ilia, Chapter 21, and Chapter 23. These situations he doesn't need AS. All he needs is enough avoid to prevent himself from dying, which he does fairly well. Since he can be dropped off somewhere, he can draw in Wyverns much easier. Sacae I might bend my knee on. Like I said, I didn't find Gonzales all that useful, but I'm not sure about Garret dropping out of Mid. He might just bottom it out in Sacae. If more people want him lower, by all means.

I still think Zeiss should be in Lower Mid. Even if he can't cut it as a combat unit(which I'm not sure of, he does have great HM bonuses), his ferrying powers are pretty good in the terrain heavy maps that come. It's better than what a loser like Barth ever does anyway.

I'm pretty much in agreement, mainly due to his good ferrying power in Ilia where terrain is a clusterfuck. Sacae is pretty sparse with terrain aside from Chapter 17 though. I find that Zeiss is great in Chapters 21 and 21X. Wouldn't doubt him somewhat useful in Chapter 23 either.

Now for the question of the century. Where to put Thany in High? ?_?

Edited May 12, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

I still maintain that having Fir is largely superfluous due to already having Rutger.

80% of your other combats are superfluous due to already having Rutger. What's your point?

And really, what are people going to try to cop out to defend Roy>Fir? Seize? Rapiering crap (which doesnt work well when he's eating WTD)? Free slot? That's really all he has, and I don't see any of it beating out superior stats. Lot/Fir really is in a similar boat, only Lot actually has something to say to justify losing offense, which is durability and shitty 1-2 range. The shitty 1-2 range obviously doesn't count for much, although...(not taking sides in the argument, just making observations/parallels)

[dondon151]

80% of your other combats are superfluous due to already having Rutger. What's your point?

False. What doesn't Rutger have that 80% of your other combat units have? A reliable enemy phase.

[Florete]

80% of your other combats are superfluous due to already having Rutger. What's your point?

And really, what are people going to try to cop out to defend Roy>Fir? Seize? Rapiering crap (which doesnt work well when he's eating WTD)? Free slot? That's really all he has, and I don't see any of it beating out superior stats. Lot/Fir really is in a similar boat, only Lot actually has something to say to justify losing offense, which is durability and shitty 1-2 range. The shitty 1-2 range obviously doesn't count for much, although...(not taking sides in the argument, just making observations/parallels)

False. What doesn't Rutger have that 80% of your other combat units have? A reliable enemy phase.

I have to side with Bblade here. Rutger + Fir > just Rutger. That aside, I don't see how Rutger's existence really hurts Fir any more than it hurts most other combat units. It's not like Fir is a 3rd string healer or something where competition actually makes a significant difference. Lacking an enemy phase is not good, but it's not that bad either, especially in this game where units are prone to having shitty 2 range anyway.

[dondon151]

I have to side with Bblade here. Rutger + Fir > just Rutger. That aside, I don't see how Rutger's existence really hurts Fir any more than it hurts most other combat units. It's not like Fir is a 3rd string healer or something where competition actually makes a significant difference. Lacking an enemy phase is not good, but it's not that bad either, especially in this game where units are prone to having shitty 2 range anyway.

"Rutger + Fir > Rutger" is not an accurate comparison. Of course Rutger + someone else > Rutger; anyone with a basic sense of mathematics can show that, but Fir is not occupying a previously unoccupied spot on your team. In this game, with regard to combat units, all you need are 2-3 enemy phase powerhouses and 2-3 cleanup. Where does Fir fit into this? If you want to use her as cleanup, she's still not an optimal choice due to not being mounted and not having access to 2 range anyway. Rutger's niche role on the team is a boss killer, but we don't generally need 2 boss killers (and Shin or Klein suffice for the secondary role anyway because they usually go uncountered and don't require Rutger to be rescued, or any other generally hard hitting unit).

I've never felt the particular need for a strong 1-range locked unit when playing through the game, except for relatively early on when a base stat Rutger was not enough (but in a typical playthrough, Rutger would be gaining stats through level ups anyway), and even then it was only because I was lacking reliable methods for killing bosses. So you can do just as well whether you have Fir on your team or not, while you can't without Lot.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Barring a few maps (specifically Sacae), FE6 is usually leaning toward a low density of enemy units, and that combined with more deployment spots than you can handle means that enemy phase is less important in this game than it is in others.

[dondon151]

I don't buy that. Even if you can deploy like 8 filler combat units, you still need to find a way for them to keep up (to be effective throughout the course of the chapter, otherwise they'll be useless past turn 2), plus a way to not have them get in your way by attracting unwanted combat during enemy phase. If anything, that diminishes Fir's worth because you can just as easily deploy any other unit and have them smack enemies on player phase.

The point is, I don't think that low enemy density justifies a bad to non-existent enemy phase. You'll want to be moving your units as much as possible on player phases; if they get bogged down killing enemies, then you're not progressing as fast as possible.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

The problem with that is some combination of practically no one being able to consistently ORKO on enemy phase, inaccurate to no 2-range, and defenses which undermine the offensive capabilities of the unit in question.

[Colonel M]

A fair amount of balance is important, IMO. In general, you want a steady amount of Enemy Phase no matter how "shitty" you regard 2 range weaponry in general. It's one of the most crucial aspects in Sacae as well. Fir only has a Player Phase; that means 1 hit in two phases overall. Even Klein at that point has more, and Klein has 0 risk of taking a counterattack if we don't talk about Sacae. Being able to Brave Bow Swordmasters, for example, is much more sufficient than running up to a Swordmaster and risking yourself of a critical hit, for example.

Despite the somewhat lower enemy density in this game, the enemies are still quality enough to make a difference. Your units also can survive more than one round and being able to chip multiple units on the Enemy Phase, even if it induces missing an occasional hit, is far greater than someone like Fir pulling in one range enemies than leaving 2 range enemies alive and unscathed.

That being said, I would think the lower enemy density would actually hurt Fir even more in a certain aspect with regards to leveling. The enemy density is great enough for needing a balance of Player and Enemy Phase.

[Dat Nick]

You make it sound like every single fucking enemy in the game is a mage or has bows or carries javelins or something. Which isn't the case. 1-2 range is cool yes, but it is not the end of the goddamned world if you don't have it. If you can reliably ORKO at range, that's fine, but a lot of the people who have access to it can't do that, and the fact that they have fuckballs hit/mt is not helping. Does Lugh>Rutger because enemy phase lol? Personally I'd rather take Rutger obliterating everything that touches him at 1-range over Lot chipping everything that he hits with a handaxe. Emphasis on "that he hits".

There's chapters like Sacae I'll agree to it being vital on; Sacae is not every chapter in the game.

I mean, are you really going to drop Rutger to High tier for this? Or even below Dick, who is in the same boat until promotion?

Edited May 13, 2010 by Cody Travers