FE6 HM Tier List

[frat_tastic]

If Marcus is going to be that much higher than Lugh, then there's really no reason for Zealot to not be above him either.

If Lot's hit is such a problem that he lolsux, what's Gonzales doing up so high then?

[dondon151]

Prove it. Not using Lot somehow adds turns to chapter completion? No, it doesn't. It just means you use sword-users to bait in enemies and kill them and fight them instead. Enemy density isn't high enough to make Lot's presence necessary at all. He misses a lot. He is a HORRIBLE option for enemy phase due to not having swords. Lot gets bonus points for some loldier, Cavalier, and Knight fighting, and that's about it. Against everything else, he's crap.

I don't see how not using Lot would literally add a turn to your completion time. Maybe in Chapter 4 because he can nuke Cavaliers...but outside of that? I'm not seeing it at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAfAGyKk52Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCDNSTvdk8w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Z_6r3VO2I

etc.

Roy for top of top tier.

Too bad Roy sucks, and in some cases he's a liability because he needs to be rescue-dropped to the throne, which naturally causes units to lose stats.

The biggest problem with your numbers is that you're only talking about Atk. Hit matters. Enemies in this game don't have terrible Evd. Weapons have shitty Hit, especially Lot's. Enemies in Chapter 5 are in forests a lot. Lot is missing half the time in this chapter and can actually be hit easily. The guys with swords are almost never missing and are almost never being hit.

Narga already addressed the hit issue. If Lot misses, that's too bad, but generally you didn't have a better option anyway. If Lot hits, then more points for Lot.

The support builds slowly, but it's definitely viable, and everyone in this game appreciates Hit (if Lot had it, he'd be actually decent, but he doesn't) and Evd. Shin even does before promotion so he can not worry about Hand Axes and magic users. It also helps him on enemy phase against ranged things. In Sacae, it's amazing for both him and Fir.

Consider that if Fir is within Shin's support range, and Shin is within enemy attack range, then Fir is also likely to be within enemy attack range (of fewer enemies, but of some enemies nonetheless). So while Shin is poised to counter, the enemy decides to attack Fir instead, who doesn't counter. Net negative.

For Zealot and Marcus, sure. Too bad the WTDA is a pain in the ass in terms of both durability and offense and they're the only units that don't suck ass with Javelins. Lance and Alan lose 2 Spd and have pretty failure Hit (less so in the case of Lance) and their durability becomes a slight problem. Yes, Fir's lack of 1~2 range is a bit of a problem, but Lot's 1~2 range is always garbage because he just misses and won't kill what attacks him, even massively weighed down shitty Pegs and low HP/Def Mages.

Since when did non-fatal damage become equivalent to no damage? And since when was 60+ equivalent to 0?

Did you miss my example with the Mage in Ilia where Lot having 1~2 range meant next to nothing?

I missed that example because that example was incorrect. If Lot counters on enemy phase, that's a free kill for another unit on player phase. It is impossible for Fir to attack the mage without at least another unit taking a counter, since the mage outranges Fir, so someone (preferably with 1-2 range) has to lure it out. And if she is the one that lures it out, player units have to take a total of 2 attacks in order to kill the mage: 1 to lure it out, and 1 after the first hit that knocks it into KO range. Inefficiency at its finest. If Lot has D bows, he can also attack it with a Longbow for free, and no damage is done to anyone.

That's 10 units with higher deployment priority, not better offense, which is what I was addressing.

Deployment priority was my initial point.

This deployment priority argument makes everything below the top <insert allowed amount in a chapter> characters absolute bottom tier. You realize that, don't you? If you don't have deployment priority, you may as well be bottom tier, since you're not deployed. That's really gay. This assumes you always play the game the same exact way, every single time, with no differences at all, and only top tiers. I understand we're going for efficiency, but that's really extreme.

If you're willing to waive opportunity costs, you have to be consistent about it. If it's fine to deploy Fir even though her opportunity cost is greater than her benefits, then it's fine to put Lot in situations that might be better suited for another unit. I agree that there are many units who have superior 1-2 range enemy phase than Lot, whether it's situational or not. But if you want to waive that opportunity cost, then you have to consider, for example, that on a map like 18S, 24/30 of the starting enemies on the map can attack from 2 range. Which means that Lot gets full credit for countering 24/30 enemies on the map that Fir can't.

So accomplishing nothing is more desirable than accomplishing nothing? Lot will hit that Mage only half the time, and reduce it to an amount of HP below it's maximum. What good unit isn't just assraping it's maximum anyways? Fir reduces it to dust when she attacks it regardless of it's HP. So does any good unit. The only thing Lot does is prevent your unit from taking a counter half the time...but he's also being hit half the time and eating a healer's turn to get himself healed and he's going to have less Evd/Res than whatever other option you have attack the Mage, so it's actually more optimal to let them make the first move.

The only ways to KO the mage are through brave weapon use or crit proc (I guess you could use a divine weapon too). And you have to outrange the mage. And if the crit proc fails, you're still taking a counter anyway. And if there are other 1-2 range enemies around, you're at a disadvantage unless someone else trades a 1-2 range weapon to the top of the other unit's inventory. And you have to put yourself in this contrived situation in the first place.

Is this efficient play or blitzkrieg? If you're playing efficiently, you want strong units, so trying to rush through without gaining EXP to make units stronger kinda hinders things in general.

You have prepromotes. My 0% growths strategies are probably more efficient than those of people who play through the game normally. If I can consistently 10-12 turn chapters with some pretty crappy units, using better units probably won't improve that number by any large extent. People are under the impression that EXP is an important commodity, but the fact is that it requires a lot to get improve a unit by any significant extent, and the marginal benefit that unit brings is not too substantial.

Fir nukes anything on the player phase. That's something only two units can do all the time. Lot has mediocre 1~2 or 2 range for countering that about 15 other units can mimic or do better than. Who's giving you something more valuable now?

Anyone that doubles has the potential to nuke enemies on player phase. Just give them a killer weapon. In most cases, even a silver weapon would suffice. Or a brave weapon. Or a divine weapon. In the case of killers, the proc rates aren't as high as Fir/Rutger/Gonzo/Geese/Garret, but double attacking at like 45 crit yields ~70% chance of scoring a 4HKO. And in the case of silvers, the success rate is completely dependent on hit.

Yup. I'm there right now. Did you know that you can deploy 15 units and check enemy attack ranges? There's no reason anyone should be forced to fight 4 enemies in a single enemy phase.

Yeah, so why would I use Lugh, who is limited to 3 attacks, where I can use Lot, who is limited to an unquantifiable number of attacks?

Or I can position a unit with better offense to do that...like almost anyone else with 1~2 range. What Lot does is very easily mimicked and surpassed. What Fir does, which is nuke stronger enemies on the player phase (Troopers, bosses with 20+ AS and ~80 fucking Evd), is only mimicked by one unit.

Last I checked, there is generally only 1 boss on the map, so 1 unit for that task is sufficient. The exception is 20xS.

Lot consumed a resourced to do this. A resource that any number of units could have used to become good/better. That's automatically a negative unless you can show that giving it to him is more positive than negative. Dieck with Speedwings is suddenly borderline on doubling Nomads and doubles Wyvern Lords.

If you're going to Sacae, giving Lot a Speedwings is a bad idea anyway. If you're not, it yields substantially more improvement. Whatever he was borderline on before, he's not anymore, and he comfortably doubles WKs and marches around with a high ORKO rate with Killer Axe or with a Hand Axe to counter every one that comes his way.

Those resources are not infinite. Using Fir's stats and power over expensive/rare weapons means you can allocate those resources elsewhere. Fir doesn't need special treatment, stat boosters, or anything like that. Using Fir instead of Brave/Divine weapons to nuke strong enemies means you can use those amazing resources elsewhere.

Nor are the enemies. Unless you take forever on 18S or something.

Fir's stats cost something too. They cost EXP that could have been given to the rest of the team and a promotion item that could have been exchanged for something like an Angelic Robe. And you'd still have those myriad resources at your disposal, so why not use them? I'm on chapter 23 right now and the only resource that I want more of are Nosferatus, but that's because I didn't buy enough of them in the first place. If I could get by with those resources, then anyone else can get by with fewer.

[CATS]

Okay, so, chapter 8.

8 Lugh: 6.8 Mag, 9.5 Spd----19.5 Hp, 4 Def, 7.1 Res, 26.4 Avo

Zealot, still at base: 10 Str, 13 Spd----35 Hp, 11 Def, 7 Res, 31 Avo (+ move, axes, weapon ranks, con)

Let's compare to some random enemies.

Iron lance loldier: 18 Atk, 82 Hit----33 Hp, 2 Def, 1 Res

Zealot + iron axe is an easy 2HKO. Lugh doesn't have enough Atk to 2HKO even if it had 0 Res. Zealot is 6HKO'd at 41% displayed. Lugh is 2HKO'd at 55-56 displayed.

Steel lance knight: 20 Atk, 70 Hit----27 Hp, 13 Def, 2 Res

Zealot + silver does double 11's, or steel axe does double 9's. Hammer results in massive damage. Lugh does double 11's with thunder. Zealot is 4-5HKO'd at 29% displayed. Lugh is 2HKO'd at 43-44 displayed.

Thunder mage: 15 Atk, 97 Hit----23 Hp, 4 Def, 7 Res, 8 AS

Zealot + javelin is a simple 2HKO. Lugh can't double and does 6 damage with thunder, a 4HKO. Zealot is 5HKO'd at 66% displayed. Lugh is 3HKO'd at 70-71% displayed.

Steel sword merc: 18 Atk, 100 Hit----30 Hp, 7 Def, 2 Res, 13 AS

Zealot + silver can 2HKO, or iron lance will 3HKO. Lugh can only 3HKO. Zealot is 6HKO'd at 59% hit. Lugh is potentially one-rounded.

Also, Zealot has 8 move while Lugh has 5, and this map has huge gaps between the different groups of enemies. Lugh is quickly getting left behind as the mounted units cover the space between one group of enemies and the next much more quickly than Lugh and his 5 move. Some foot units might get ferried along the way, but probably not Lugh. Dieck, Rutger, Roy, etc have priority on that.

And Lugh is a tier above Zealot right now.

This is pretty fun, maybe I'll do a Ch 9 comparison tomorrow just for kicks.

[dondon151]

You might as well do a chapter 7 comparison, as I believe that will be more important than a chapter 9 comparison.

[Mekkah]

I'm not sure if you saw this CATS since my post had last post on the page syndrome, but earlygame comparisons between Zea and Lugh aren't giving any new info. You're better off addressing the faults on the analogy with the FE7 Warriors, or devaluing Lugh's mid- and lategame wins than by going "haha look at how badly Lugh loses earlygame".

[CATS]

You might as well do a chapter 7 comparison, as I believe that will be more important than a chapter 9 comparison.

I already did a quick one shortly before the Ch 8 comparison. No need to go into detail on Ch 7. Lugh is OHKO'd by dragon knights and etc. It's just "lugh gets raped, lugh gets raped, lugh gets raped."

That's a very, very loose connection to make. Geitz's performance is very much unlike Zealot. Geitz joins midgame and remains a useful fighter for the rest of the game, Zealot joins earlygame and somewhere around Ch13 his combat is going to be arguably worse than, say, Lugh...by the time the team promotes, he might as well be an 8 mov packing mule. There's some similarities here, but not enough to say "well it's that way on FE7 so it should be that way on FE6 too".

Sure it is. Geitz's initial performance isn't as good as Zealot's. Zealot is atleast as good as Alan and Lance if not better when he joins. Is Geitz as good as Raven and etc when he joins? Geitz has about 10 chapters of use assuming you use him in every chapter after 24, and really it's 9 chapters, since he does nothing worthwhile in Ch 24 (unlike Zealot in Ch 7). That's pushing it since you can easily argue that Geitz isn't fielded or doesn't matter on some of those chapters (such as the final, where lords + Athos + Nils already takes up 5 out of 12 slots). Zealot also has 9-10 chapters of use assuming he gets dropped around Ch 13 or 14.

Lugh's combat will be better than Zealot's 8-9 chapters after Zealot joined? lol, a trained Bartre is arguably better than Geitz as soon as Geitz joins. When Zealot joins, Lugh is getting raped horribly even if you seriously tried to train him up.

20/1 Lugh

Thunder: 21.6 atk, 16.5 AS, 118.6 hit, 13.0 crit - - 44.7 avo, 29.5 hp, 7.8 def, 12.7 res, 11.7 critavo

--/10 Zealot

Killer Axe: 23.2 atk, 14.8 AS, 95.5 hit, 36.6 crit - - 35.9 avo, 41.8 hp, 13.7 def, 8.3 res, 6.3 critavo

Javelin: 18.2 atk, 14.8 AS, 85.5 hit, 6.7 crit

There's a significant gap in offense in Lugh's favor, and a significant gap in defense in Zealot's favor...and then staves vs mount blahblah. And a large win @ 1-2 range...lol @ Zealot's hit. Maybe the tier gap should go, but I do not see Zealot > Lugh, at least not based on just a comparison at Zealot's prime.

A trained Bartre is at worst nearly equal to Geitz. Why is there a tier gap in Geitz's favor if we're allowed to skip forward to when the unpromoted unit has consumed lots of resources, including a deployment slot for a long time, and push this comparison as a significant advantage for said unpromoted unit?

You're better off addressing the faults on the analogy with the FE7 Warriors, or devaluing Lugh's mid- and lategame wins than by going "haha look at how badly Lugh loses earlygame".

I did address that. There are nearly 20 units above Lugh who are getting used over him during the lategame. Did you address that?

[Inui]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=UAfAGyKk52Y

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=DCDNSTvdk8w

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=B7Z_6r3VO2I

etc.

0% growth run? Really? Dieck can generally clear those enemies by himself before Roy and his group reach that area. That's typically what I do. Since Dieck is worth giving EXP to and those other guys aren't.

Too bad Roy sucks, and in some cases he's a liability because he needs to be rescue-dropped to the throne, which naturally causes units to lose stats.

3/0 Roy vs axes: 19.6 HP, 6.5 Def, 34.1 Evd --- 11.8 Atk, 111 Hit

3/0 Lot vs axes: 29 HP, 4 Def, 18 Evd --- 15 Atk, 79 Hit

Random level 1 Fighter: 26 HP, 3 Def, 15 Evd --- 17 Atk, 75 Hit

vs Roy: 41 Hit, kills Roy in 2 hits. Takes 9 Dmg, can't dodge, dies in 3 hits.

vs Lot: 60 Hit, kills Lot in 3 hits. Takes 12 Dmg, Lot only has 64 Hit, dies in 3 hits.

Roy has superior growths in every offensive area and a significantly superior Evd growth.

Aaaand Roy is going to build some quick, kick-ass supports. Lot does too, but his are slower and not as awesome.

Narga already addressed the hit issue. If Lot misses, that's too bad, but generally you didn't have a better option anyway. If Lot hits, then more points for Lot.

You can't just ignore the Hit issue. You're not seeing what missing can do to your gameplay. If Lot misses, and then eats a counter, he's forcing a healer to heal him or he can die or be in danger of dying, which means a restart can happen. The comparisons of Unit X's offense against Lot's were ridiculous. The other units don't miss 1/3 of the time like Lot. That means their offense is only the same as Lot's 2/3 of the time, while Lot just lolmisses the other 1/3. They rape him.

Since when did non-fatal damage become equivalent to no damage? And since when was 60+ equivalent to 0?

If the non-fatal damage changes nothing, then it doesn't matter. Lot can be attacked by two Fighters or something, counter with a Hand Axe, hit one of them and miss the other. That's a very likely situation, and actually the MOST likely one. Lot can then attack on his turn, but he's still not killing the Fighter in two hits. Fir can be attacked, not counter, and then slaughter the Fighter on her turn with the Wo Doa or something, or just do Lot's two turns worth of damage in one.

Not having 1~2 range is overhyped.

I missed that example because that example was incorrect. If Lot counters on enemy phase, that's a free kill for another unit on player phase. It is impossible for Fir to attack the mage without at least another unit taking a counter, since the mage outranges Fir, so someone (preferably with 1-2 range) has to lure it out. And if she is the one that lures it out, player units have to take a total of 2 attacks in order to kill the mage: 1 to lure it out, and 1 after the first hit that knocks it into KO range. Inefficiency at its finest. If Lot has D bows, he can also attack it with a Longbow for free, and no damage is done to anyone.

Most units people use are good, unlike Lot. Fir is good. Fir can just move at the Mage and not care about its attack. She will most likely dodge it. The numbers were shown. She then slaughters it. Lot can counter it. But he can also be easily hit, and eat up a healer's turn, and he can also easily miss. If Lot actually hits, the enemy is still not dead. Lot can then move and kill it. They did the same, but Fir is 100% guaranteed to get a kill, while Lot's Hit is bad.

"but u have a team"

Indeed you do. And guess what? The rest of that team one-shots or doubles and kills this Mage. Lot does not, because he is bad.

If you're willing to waive opportunity costs, you have to be consistent about it. If it's fine to deploy Fir even though her opportunity cost is greater than her benefits, then it's fine to put Lot in situations that might be better suited for another unit. I agree that there are many units who have superior 1-2 range enemy phase than Lot, whether it's situational or not. But if you want to waive that opportunity cost, then you have to consider, for example, that on a map like 18S, 24/30 of the starting enemies on the map can attack from 2 range. Which means that Lot gets full credit for countering 24/30 enemies on the map that Fir can't.

Waive them? No. Overhype the living shit of them? No. Something in the middle is more acceptable to me.

If you're playing efficiently, the much better units will counter those Nomads, and Fir will slaughter something really strong like a Trooper on her turn that only her and Rutger can kill, and only her and Rutger are good against super gay bosses like Monke and every other Trooper camping a gate. Oh, and good luck against Gel.

The only ways to KO the mage are through brave weapon use or crit proc (I guess you could use a divine weapon too). And you have to outrange the mage. And if the crit proc fails, you're still taking a counter anyway. And if there are other 1-2 range enemies around, you're at a disadvantage unless someone else trades a 1-2 range weapon to the top of the other unit's inventory. And you have to put yourself in this contrived situation in the first place.

Mage attacks first. Lot hits it half the time and gets hit half the time. Half the time, he stops your unit from taking a counter. Half the time, he forces a healer to heal him instead of either fighting or healing someone else.

Mage attacks a good unit with high Evd, like Fir. It probably misses. Hell, it's definitely missing against her h4x Evd. Fir then kills it on her turn, and it probably misses again if she doesn't score a crit with her 40+ Crit on it (can go to 80ish IIRC).

I'm really not seeing a big difference here. Mages are almost never clustered together, btw, especially in Ilia and Sacae. I guess it's nice IF Lot hits because it prevents some other unit from having to take a counter, but Lot is still being hit himself, and he has less Evd than most other units you're using, so... Yeah, it's worse. Lot's chances of creating a situation where someone must be healed exceed Fir's in this situation.

You have prepromotes. My 0% growths strategies are probably more efficient than those of people who play through the game normally. If I can consistently 10-12 turn chapters with some pretty crappy units, using better units probably won't improve that number by any large extent. People are under the impression that EXP is an important commodity, but the fact is that it requires a lot to get improve a unit by any significant extent, and the marginal benefit that unit brings is not too substantial.

I look forward to seeing you beat bosses in Sacae and anything after that. I have no idea how you're going to do it. How did you even beat bosses like Windam and Narshen?

Anyone that doubles has the potential to nuke enemies on player phase. Just give them a killer weapon. In most cases, even a silver weapon would suffice. Or a brave weapon. Or a divine weapon. In the case of killers, the proc rates aren't as high as Fir/Rutger/Gonzo/Geese/Garret, but double attacking at like 45 crit yields ~70% chance of scoring a 4HKO. And in the case of silvers, the success rate is completely dependent on hit.

No, they can't, and Fir doubles more than everyone but Gonzales and Rutger. They tie her.

There are enemies that basically only she and Rutger can reliably kill in one turn. Nomadic Troopers, bosses like Monk and other Trooper bosses, Heroes, Swordmasters... These enemies are threatening, Gonzales is horrible at hitting them, and everyone but them isn't doubling them. Performing a unique and specific task like that is awesome. It's worth way more than Lot doing what <insert 15 units> can do the just as well or better than him. It's supply and demand. Those two Nomadic Troopers that are big and scary sitting near your army? Only Fir and Rutger can reliably nuke them. Nobody else can, even Gonzales, due to Hit. Bosses like Monke and every Trooper boss after him? Gel? Roartz? Every magic using boss? Murdock? Those are really strong bosses. Fir and Rutger are by far the best at fighting them. Rutger can't do everything, so having a second instant-nuker on the field is really nice, since there's pretty much always more than one gay enemy on the map to get rid of.

Last I checked, there is generally only 1 boss on the map, so 1 unit for that task is sufficient. The exception is 20xS.

There are other really strong enemies that your team can't kill easily and are actually threatening, like most promoted enemies. Fir's awesomeness isn't unique to boss-killing. Lot sucks against those enemies.

Nor are the enemies. Unless you take forever on 18S or something.

Fir's stats cost something too. They cost EXP that could have been given to the rest of the team and a promotion item that could have been exchanged for something like an Angelic Robe. And you'd still have those myriad resources at your disposal, so why not use them? I'm on chapter 23 right now and the only resource that I want more of are Nosferatus, but that's because I didn't buy enough of them in the first place. If I could get by with those resources, then anyone else can get by with fewer.

You can't just say using resources means nothing. Fir uses resources to level up and promote, but she actually needs less kills than Lot by far. Fir allowing you to allocate resources like Brave weapons and stat boosters elsewhere is a clear plus for her. The best you can do is what you're doing right now, which is devalue it.

[dondon151]

0% growth run? Really? Dieck can generally clear those enemies by himself before Roy and his group reach that area. That's typically what I do. Since Dieck is worth giving EXP to and those other guys aren't.

Dieck most definitely has trouble soloing the east side. Lot speeds up chapter completion by at least 1 turn.

These videos are relevant because the characters would be fairly close to their bases anyway.

Indeed you do. And guess what? The rest of that team one-shots or doubles and kills this Mage. Lot does not, because he is bad.

Brave Axe, Killer Axe, Killer Bow, gg.

Waive them? No. Overhype the living shit of them? No. Something in the middle is more acceptable to me.

Have fun being inconsistent. Look forward to having your arguments torn apart. There is no justification for being inconsistent.

If you're playing efficiently, the much better units will counter those Nomads, and Fir will slaughter something really strong like a Trooper on her turn that only her and Rutger can kill, and only her and Rutger are good against super gay bosses like Monke and every other Trooper camping a gate. Oh, and good luck against Gel.

If you're playing efficiently, Fir won't be used in the first place.

I'm really not seeing a big difference here. Mages are almost never clustered together, btw, especially in Ilia and Sacae. I guess it's nice IF Lot hits because it prevents some other unit from having to take a counter, but Lot is still being hit himself, and he has less Evd than most other units you're using, so... Yeah, it's worse. Lot's chances of creating a situation where someone must be healed exceed Fir's in this situation.

Other enemy types exist. You're really overhyping Lot's hit issues. Your diction implies that every time Lot attacks it's a crapshoot, when it's closer to 7/10 or 3/4 successes per attempts.

I look forward to seeing you beat bosses in Sacae and anything after that. I have no idea how you're going to do it. How did you even beat bosses like Windam and Narshen?

Using those resources that you spurn using. I have videos up to chapter 22 uploaded; why don't you watch them?

You can't just say using resources means nothing. Fir uses resources to level up and promote, but she actually needs less kills than Lot by far. Fir allowing you to allocate resources like Brave weapons and stat boosters elsewhere is a clear plus for her. The best you can do is what you're doing right now, which is devalue it.

Where else exactly would you use those resources?

[Inui]

As much as I'd love to spar with you further, this is going nowhere, due to fundamental differences in how we view things, apparently.

Statements like "If you're playing efficiently, Fir won't be used in the first place" are also really gay and further show that everyone outside of the very very best needs to be in bottom tier. =/

[dondon151]

I don't really want to debate any further because I have homework to do and midterms to study for.

[Colonel M]

Sorry CATS, I was kind of entertained by the little Lot vs Fir debate. Uh... for now I'll at least hit up Zealot < Lugh. Probably don't mind him going a little further up either. Probably not 100% disagreeing with him over Lugh but I'll give Mekkah the chance to argue it.

EDIT: Klein > Fir was brought up. Sort of agree to this too. I'll give the time for people to bicker this one out, but I'm sort of siding with Klein here. Don't worry RF: I'm not the typical person to go overhype things.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Tyranel M

[CATS]

Cool, Zealot is finally upper mid where he belongs. Anyways, let's see here, Ch 8x.

9 Lugh: 7.2 Mag, 10 Spd----20 Hp, 4.2 Def, 7.4 Res, 27.8 Avo

2 Zealot: 10.2 Str, 13.2 Spd----35.8 Hp, 11.3 Def, 7.2 Res, 31.6 Avo

Lugh: +0.2 Res

Zealot: +3 Pow, +3.2 Spd, +15.8 Hp, +7.1 Def, +3.8 Avo, +3 Mov

lolol

Steel axe fighter: 25 Atk, 67 Hit----34 Hp, 4 Def, 2 Res, 5 AS

Finally, Lugh doesn't get completely raped at offense. He can do double 13's with Elfire vs Zealot doing double 15's or 16's with Steel Sword/Iron Blade. Well, Zealot + silver lance, steel axe or steel blade can still ORKO, so Lugh still loses, but at least it's not completely horrible. But, look at the defense. Lugh is OHKO'd. He can never go in range of this enemy. Zealot is 3HKO'd at 12.75% hit. He can fight two of them at once, and can do so for a long period of time without needing to be healed. It takes 22-23 rounds for him to die on average. Lugh dies in one hit. Are you kidding me?

Killing edge merc: 20 Atk, 110 Hit, 37 Crit----31 Hp, 6 Def, 3 Res, 12 AS

Obviously Lugh can never get attacked by this. Zealot on the other hand still has 13 Hp left after eating a critical from this guy. He can go into range of this guy and say, a steel sword merc, and be completely safe. Meanwhile Lugh 3HKOs with Elfire, while Zealot 3HKOs with iron lance or 2HKOs with silver (very close to a 2HKO with steel).

Aircalibur mage: 19 Atk, 107 Hit----26 Hp, 5 Def, 9 Res, 11 AS

Lugh + Elfire does 6 damage, a 5HKO. Zealot can 2HKO with steel sword or 3HKO with javelin. Lugh is 2HKO'd at 79 displayed, Zealot is 3-4HKO'd at 75 displayed.

Ch 9 comparison should be even better. Looks like plenty of axe enemies have 8-9 AS, and the durability gap should be pretty hilarious against them.

[Junkhead]

Very late reply

Is there any chance of Hugh getting above Lilina in the list? Or at least in Ilia- No wait, he does better than her in both routes, he does suffer from getting doubled ar 20/1 in Sacae...but his stats aren't overall bad and he comes pretty good leveled and with decent durability for a mage.

Colonel mentioned this isn't ranked...so maybe he rise a bit?

Once again. Does Hugh have an actual chance of getting above Lilina? Lilina's main purpose to get there is supporting Roy and because she can bash Generals.

[Colonel M]

Sorry. Hm, it's possible. Let me do a comparison if I get the chance today.

[Dat Nick]

using CATS's line of logic

base marcus pwns Alan/Lance

Marcus for top tier lolololol

Seriously, stop with the earlygame comparisons. They don't tell us anything we don't already know.

[Inui]

EDIT: Klein > Fir was brought up. Sort of agree to this too. I'll give the time for people to bicker this one out, but I'm sort of siding with Klein here. Don't worry RF: I'm not the typical person to go overhype things.

Is Lot > Klein?

If so, Fir > Klein.

Seriously, guys? You can just ignore my arguments? The supply and demand one should probably be addressed. And by "addressed" I mean

you should go "well, shit, Klein/Lot/etc. do what <insert nub unit> can do, but Fir's offense is only mimicked by 1.5 units."

Also she requires no extra babying or anything since she joins instantly good.

Fuck it. I'll shoot for the big prey. I'll start saying Fir = Echidna. Or is better. Or is very slightly worse. Cuz it's true.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Inui

[Reikken]

*stuff*

Don't forget Lugh's supports. B Chad pretty early, by 8x or so, or earlier if that's his only support, and a possible C Ellen not too long after that.

[dondon151]

Why would Chad always be deployed or consistently adjacent to Lugh? Chapter 3, 6, 7 are doubtful.

[Colonel M]

Fuck it. I'll shoot for the big prey. I'll start saying Fir = Echidna. Or is better. Or is very slightly worse. Cuz it's true.

If anything it would mean Echinda down, which I wanted for quite a while.

I also don't like both mirrors of the argument with Lott vs. Fir. It's a lot closer than you think it is. Using "she can mimick what only 1.5 other units can do" isn't convincing me to go anywhere. I admit Hit to be an issue as well to some extents. Also, dondon was the one that brought Klein > Fir, not I. I'm still unresolved on this Lot and Fir thing.

Hey RF it's like Fir vs. Klein gehehehehehe.

Why would Chad always be deployed or consistently adjacent to Lugh? Chapter 3, 6, 7 are doubtful.

I'd fold on Chapter 6 to some extents, but it's not difficult to have Lugh near Chad for most of the map. Same in C7. 8 might be the one that's difficult because, IIRC, I carried the Thieves with Paladins to reach the treasure where Cath would normally go.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Reikken]

because Chad is a good combat unit through ch 14x, with the exception of ch 13.

As for constantly adjacent, he of course is not, but the support is so fast that it doesn't matter.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Reikken

[Junkhead]

because Chad is a good combat unit through ch 14x, with the exception of ch 13.

I like how he 4RKO's fighters at Chapter 5.

[Reikken]

Alan 3-4 4RKs them too.

[grandjackal]

Don't forget Lugh's supports. B Chad pretty early, by 8x or so, or earlier if that's his only support, and a possible C Ellen not too long after that.

Congratulations, you missed this.

9 Lugh: 7.2 Mag, 10 Spd----20 Hp, 4.2 Def, 7.4 Res, 27.8 Avo

2 Zealot: 10.2 Str, 13.2 Spd----35.8 Hp, 11.3 Def, 7.2 Res, 31.6 Avo

Lugh: +0.2 Res

Zealot: +3 Pow, +3.2 Spd, +15.8 Hp, +7.1 Def, +3.8 Avo, +3 Mov

You honestly think 10 lead in avoid's gonna top that (of which Zealot can negate with WTA thanks to triangle control)? The support closes a bit of power and hits Res, but Zealot's got a great weapon selection to chose from, and doubles more often (Lou needs 13 speed to double consistantly on the isles. This requires him to be level 15. Uhhhh, not happening). Then let's see, mount utility, move, easily the best durability on the team upon arrival, what am I missing?

Come on Reikken, that was a rather weak counter.

However, I agree with Fred, in that the earlygame comparison is nothing new. Lategame, I suppose it would depend. Ilia, both are using more expensive kinds of weapons to ORKO Pegs, which case it's durability+mount vs Healing and not sucking in Bern. Sacae, it's Durability and mount vs healing and strong accuracy with not sucking in Bern.

Ilia, I would say Zealot's better, while in Sacae it would be a bit more debateable.

Regardless, Lou's losing horribly until he promotes, then in Ilia he doesn't even necessarily win until Bern. That's still quite a long ways when you compare the two. Basically I think it will come down to Earlygame vs Bern, with Zealot winning in Ilia.

[-Cynthia-]

I never understood why people say Chad is an "amazing" combat unit, unless they're being sarcastic. He joins in a chapter full of lances followed by another chapter full of lances. Base Chad can get OHKO'd by loldiers and Cavs using Iron Lances/Javelins, which are going to have non-shitty hit due to WTA. His damage back is pretty pitiful, he only has like 8 Atk, which doesn't even damage the Cavs in Ch4 and does like 2x2 to loldiers.

He's less crappy in Ch5 since he can at least stand on a forest and not die. Of course then it's 3 more chapters of lances until the Western Isles, and by then he's just a waste of a slot if he's not doing theif stuff.

[Inui]

If anything it would mean Echinda down, which I wanted for quite a while.

I also don't like both mirrors of the argument with Lott vs. Fir. It's a lot closer than you think it is. Using "she can mimick what only 1.5 other units can do" isn't convincing me to go anywhere. I admit Hit to be an issue as well to some extents. Also, dondon was the one that brought Klein > Fir, not I. I'm still unresolved on this Lot and Fir thing.

So basically when Fir is around, she is much better than Lot, and it's not like she's some super late joiner. She joins in Chapter 9. The numbers show she's way better than Lot when around. She starts off with better offense and slightly worse durability, and then it turns into way better offense and the same or more durability, and this happens in the span of a few chapters and lasts throughout the largest ones in the game. The only, and I mean only thing Lot has is earlygame. dondon said some crap about Roy "sucking" in the earlygame, but I showed that he's better than Lot, LOL! What does that say about Lot? <insert unit with swords> is better than him in the earlygame. Unlike other units, Roy gets a 15 Mt weapon against Knights and Cavaliers to offset how Lot can use the Hammer and Halberd...which he has no monopoly on, while Roy is the only one able to use the Rapier.

Klein is an okay unit. Better than Fir? For starters, Fir starts at 1/0 with Klein's 20/1 Spd, lol. Klein has more enemy phase utility in three maps in Sacae and that's it. Klein has bonus points for nuking fliers, but Fir slaughters Pegs/Falcos already and has the Wyrmslayer for Wyverns...or even just double crits with a Wo Doa/Killing Edge and her 90 Crit or something, lol. Fir is also better against every non-Flaer boss.

Ilia, I would say Zealot's better, while in Sacae it would be a bit more debateable.

Really? I'd say the opposite. Lugh has Aircalibur in Ilia and Zealot can't hit the enemies in Sacae.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Inui