FE6 HM Tier List

[Junkhead]

Alan 3-4 4RKs them too.

That was Chad at lvl 5 and his awesome 5 Str, at least Alan manages to have around 15 Atk thanks to his support with Lance at the same level, they could round up on that fighter together whereas Chad has to be with Lugh and they won't do much damage together, Lance could be able to double since there are a few fighters with +3 HP and steel axes, they can actually Hit Chad and simply kill him in one hit if he doesn't dodge.

[Narga_Rocks]

Unlike other units, Roy gets a 15 Mt weapon against Knights and Cavaliers to offset how Lot can use the Hammer and Halberd...which he has no monopoly on, while Roy is the only one able to use the Rapier.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on the rest of your posts, but for the monopoly thing...

Halberd and Hammer are D rank. There are two units that can use it, at first. Lot and Wade. Lot starts with two more hit and has 4 AS rather than 3 AS with the two weapons. Wade has a better hit growth, though. By .45.

Still, I have to think that 3 AS will get doubled earlier than 4 AS, and since they both don't have the greatest of hit with the thing missing with Wade seems more dangerous than missing with Lot. And Lot has the higher speed growth. Then your next D rank Axe user is either Zealot or when Marcus hits D Axes.

While it may not be a monopoly, Lot seems like the better choice for the two items.

[Reikken]

@Cait Sith: It was not a "counter".

@Cynthia: o noz he sucks for 1 chapter, and one that's he's forced in at that. Ch4 if you'll remember also has tons of pirates.

Ch 6,7,8 you're using him anyway because there are chests, and even he can 2-round soldiers.

EDIT:"and does like 2x2 to loldiers."

Get your facts straight. Soldiers have like 0 def.

they could round up on that fighter together whereas Chad has to be with Lugh and they won't do much damage together

Correction: Everyone is together. It's not like there are 5 different ways you can go and split up your team.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Reikken

[Junkhead]

Correction: Everyone is together. It's not like there are 5 different ways you can go and split up your team.

He's still not getting an Atk bonus yet.

[Reikken]

uh? How is that relevant?

[Junkhead]

That is relevant to his support with Lugh, he's doing 10 Dmg per turn with 5 Str, and that's earlygame, I highly doubt yuo could get him up to lvl 5 when he is a bit difficult to train unless he is fed kills, he is constantly suffering WTD, and even when he faces axe users his damage is pretty crappy and risks himself on getting 1HKO'd. Maybe the Angelic Robe solves the problem of his low HP, but there is also Thany who would defeneatly want it.

[-Cynthia-]

The 2x2 was a slight exaggeration, but 7x2 isn't even a 2RKO since they have ~32 HP. It wouldn't be that bad if Chad didn't take counters and was often ORKO'd in the process. (10 Str + 8 Mt with WTA= dead Chad). The Iron Lance soldier also hits Chad at ~77% true, so we basically have to keep him out of lance range at all times.

[Inui]

Fir joins before Echidna. Echidna is good for supporting Gonzales and Lalum, Fir is good for supporting Shin and Noah. Echidna wins supports, Fir wins join time by a bit. Fir is good right when she joins. She's one of your fastest units and has good Str/Skl. She is at a really low level, but with really high stats for that level. She gets tons and tons of EXP for doing just about anything and her good stats and growths make very good use of that EXP. She can kill a few enemies in her joining chapter and gain a few levels. Then there's a cluster of axe d00ds to get rid of in the next chapter. A lot of them. Then lots of reinforcement axe d00ds. Then half a chapter before Echidna joins. I'd say having Fir at 10/0 is fair. I typically have her higher, but 10/0 is enough for modest use of her.

Fir: 10/0 Myrmidon

HP: 31.8 - 75%

Str: 11.2 - 25%

Skl: 16.5 - 50%

Spd: 18.0 - 55%

Lck: 9.5 - 50%

Def: 5.3 - 15%

Res: 3.8 - 20%

Echidna: 20/1 Hero

HP: 35 - 75%

Str: 13 - 30%

Skl: 19 - 25%

Spd: 18 - 30%

Lck: 6 - 20%

Def: 8 - 15%

Res: 7 - 15%

They start off very similar, which is surprising given the huge gap in levels. Neither of them have supports yet. Echidna is slightly more durable and has better overall offense due to axes but they are essentially the same against axe using enemies. Echidna is better for now, but not by much. Both are pretty good, though. Echidna is better than Fir for sure in Chapter 13. Then we go to Chapter 14 in the desert where Fir can stay back and fuck up two reinforcement bosses or some shit by herself, lol. Echidna doesn't have the Evd or Crit Evd to hang out down there. The only use Echidna has over Fir in the desert is having axes against a few Wyverns flying around, otherwise Fir is >= Echidna since her good growths and actually gaining levels made her catch up to or beat Echidna.

You get Hero Crests in chapters 7, 11A, and 16. The Chapter 16 Secret Shop sells them. Fir being less than 20/0 at the start or end of Chapter 16 = laughable. That's just blatant sandbagging and neglect. Dieck and Rutger can have the first two. Fir can promote at the start of Chapter 16. If you disagree with this, she can promote at Chapter 16x and Echidna can gain one more level. It changes very little about this comparison.

Fir: 20/1 Swordmaster

HP: 43.25

Str: 16.75

Skl: 22.0

Spd: 22.0

Lck: 14.5

Def: 9.85

Res: 7.8

+30 Crit

C Shin: +5 Hit, +2 Crit, +5 Evd, +2 Crit Evd

Echidna: 20/5 Hero

HP: 38.0

Str: 14.2

Skl: 20.0

Spd: 19.2

Lck: 6.8

Def: 8.6

Res: 7.6

Axes

C Gonzales/C Lalum: +5 Hit, +5 Crit, +10 Evd, +2 Def/Res, +10 Crit Evd

This shouldn't need too much explaining. Fir is already slaughtering her in terms of offense. Echidna can use axes only to tie her in Atk, but Fir has +30 Crit, more Hit, and more AS. Echidna relies very heavily on her supports for durability, while Fir does not. She actually has stats. Echidna's Evd with supports is 55.2 while Fir's is 63.5 and she has more HP and similar Def/Res. Fir stomps her in Spd/Lck growths and will gain levels faster. In fact, Fir stomps her in growths in general and comparing them later just becomes more and more in Fir's favor.

Chapter 9: Fir exists and is good, Echidna isn't there.

Chapter 10: Fir exists and is good, Echidna isn't there.

Chapter 11: Echidna is slightly better, but joins over halfway through it.

Chapter 12: Echidna is slightly better.

Chapter 12x: Echidna is likely not fielded due to a very low deployment amount, but Fir has tons of levels to gain and is good, so she is easily a candidate to be fielded.

Chapter 13: Echidna has axes for the Cavaliers and Wyverns, so she's better.

Chapter 14: Now they are essentially the same. Fir is slightly better against the axe using reinforcements, Echidna is better against the few Wyverns around and maybe the Mercs/Heroes.

Chapter 14x: Fir is like 15/0 or slightly more by now, and if you look at her 15/0 HM stats, they are on par with a 20/3 Echidna. She is better against the couple of Wyverns and that's it.

Chapter 15: Echidna wins like she does in Chapter 13, but by less since Fir narrowed the statistical gaps by gaining levels with good growths while Echidna gained very little. 18/0 HM Fir is essentially equal to 20/4 Echidna but doesn't have axes.

Chapter 16: Fir promotes. For the rest of the game, Fir is better, and the gap gets bigger and bigger.

Chapters 16x, 17, 18, 19, 20, 20x, 21, 21, 22, 23, and Final...Fir is much better.

Why bother with Fir > Lot when she's better than Echidna and can skip Lot's garbage self that way? :) Echidna doesn't have the gay crutch of "well me existing is a positive in the earlygame due to forced deployment even though I'm below average to bad there anyways except for nuking a few Cavaliers, lol."

Edited March 3, 2010 by Inui

[CATS]

Seriously, stop with the earlygame comparisons. They don't tell us anything we don't already know.

Seriously, don't post such a gross mis-representation of my argument and pretend that it proves anything.

Ofcourse the comparisons are redundant. On the other hand, the ones that I have already posted do not seem to be getting the point across, hence I can only assume that I need to post more.

[dondon151]

Fir joins before Echidna. Echidna is good for supporting Gonzales and Lalum, Fir is good for supporting Shin and Noah. Echidna wins supports, Fir wins join time by a bit. Fir is good right when she joins. She's one of your fastest units and has good Str/Skl. She is at a really low level, but with really high stats for that level. She gets tons and tons of EXP for doing just about anything and her good stats and growths make very good use of that EXP. She can kill a few enemies in her joining chapter and gain a few levels. Then there's a cluster of axe d00ds to get rid of in the next chapter. A lot of them. Then lots of reinforcement axe d00ds. Then half a chapter before Echidna joins. I'd say having Fir at 10/0 is fair. I typically have her higher, but 10/0 is enough for modest use of her.

Is your skull denser than depleted uranium. I am not going to reiterate the same argument 14 times just so you can ignore it and come up with some blanket bullshit of your own.

EXP is simply a means to an end. You don't really need it at all; claiming that Fir "makes good use of EXP" only highlights her weakness; namely, that she requires EXP.

Echidna is slightly more durable and has better overall offense due to axes but they are essentially the same against axe using enemies. Echidna is better for now, but not by much. Both are pretty good, though.

Understatement of the century. Echidna ORKOs 38 HP/5 def brigands and 33 HP/7 def archers in chapter 12x with a Steel Blade. Fir doesn't even come close. Zealot and Klein can do that if they switch to silver. If you have 7 free deployment slots in 12x, Fir isn't worth taking along. Zealot, Rutger, Alan, Lance, Clarine are top choices. You're probably bringing a thief as well. Fir has to compete with Echidna, Klein, Dieck, Gonzales for a spot, and it's not very likely that she'll be coming along. Even if she did come along, you have 3 offensive units with 7 move, and if you bring Echidna along, she has 6 move (which is still better than 5).

Echidna is better than Fir for sure in Chapter 13. Then we go to Chapter 14 in the desert where Fir can stay back and fuck up two reinforcement bosses or some shit by herself, lol. Echidna doesn't have the Evd or Crit Evd to hang out down there. The only use Echidna has over Fir in the desert is having axes against a few Wyverns flying around, otherwise Fir is >= Echidna since her good growths and actually gaining levels made her catch up to or beat Echidna.

The brigand reinforcements are irrelevant because in all likelihood you'll have finished the chapter before they come within proximity of your units. Having Fir hang back just means that you've dedicated a unit slot to someone who does nothing the entire chapter. You have 10 free slots - 3 of them will go to Miledy, Thany, and Tate, 2 of them will go to Chad, Astohl, or Cath, 1 will go to Saul or Ellen, and 1 will go to Lalum. You'll probably bring along Klein as well. Which leaves 2 slots for filler combat units, and Echidna is a better candidate than Fir is. All they really do is help Miledy kill mercs on the way to the gate.

Why bother with Fir > Lot when she's better than Echidna and can skip Lot's garbage self that way? :) Echidna doesn't have the gay crutch of "well me existing is a positive in the earlygame due to forced deployment even though I'm below average to bad there anyways except for nuking a few Cavaliers, lol."

Comparisons after chapter 16 don't really matter. Before your units promote, Echidna is one of the best offensive units on the team. It's fine if she fades into obscurity when her durability becomes a problem (hint: Fir's durability is almost just as bad), because being super special from chapters 11E to 16 is better than being slightly worse than everyone else from 16x to final.

Edited March 4, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Fir vs. Lott, debate correct? Fine, I'll do it. I take Lott and you take Fir.

Don't think blanket statements will let you win against me either.

[Inui]

Idc about your flaming and other stuff, so I'm only going to address my main argument.

Comparisons after chapter 16 don't really matter. Before your units promote, Echidna is one of the best offensive units on the team. It's fine if she fades into obscurity when her durability becomes a problem (hint: Fir's durability is almost just as bad), because being super special from chapters 11E to 16 is better than being slightly worse than everyone else from 16x to final.

Fir vs the Paladins post-promotion is probably the most lopsided thing for her. They are the best units, even superior to Miledy in most cases, due to having axes, better supports, less weaknesses or even all three advantages. I'll address Rutger first, since most agree he's super awesome and top tier.

Rutger: 20/5 Swordmaster

HP: 47.0

Str: 17.0

Skl: 24.4

Spd: 23.0

Lck: 10.0

Def: 13.0

Res: 7.0

Swords

+30 Crit

B Clarine/C Dieck: +7 Hit, +15 Crit, +15 Evd, +1 Def/Res, +15 Crit Evd

Observe Fir's stats below. Do you see how extremely similar these units are? A few levels in either direction if you disagree with Rutger only having a two level lead don't change much. They will both double everything on the map. They will have similar Atk. Rutger's advantage is more Evd and more Crit if his supporters are in range, but they aren't always. In order for Rutger to benefit, his supporters have to move first towards the enemy and not get the bonuses from him when they attack, etc. The bonuses are simply not always in play. Rutger's 5 more Evd when supported cancels out Fir's 5 more Evd when not supported. Rutger has slightly more HP and a few points of Def, but that only applies when they are hit. Both are awesome at not being hit.

vs most accurate enemy in 16x besides a single Sage way up top:

23 Atk, 111 Hit

Supported Rutger faces 32.40 Hit and takes 9 Dmg to his 47 HP. Unsupported Rutger faces 59.95 Hit and takes 10 Dmg to his 47 HP. He takes 5-6 hits to die.

Supported Fir faces 39.16 Hit and takes 13 Dmg to her 45 HP. Unsupported Fir faces 48.51 Hit and takes 13 Dmg to her 45 HP. She takes 4 hits to die.

Let's assume some really bad luck. The Mercenary connects a hit on Fir. Then the Elfire Mage with 23 Atk and less Hit connects his hit. Another Merc nearby hits her. She's still alive with 4 HP. That's some pretty horrible luck right there, and she's still fine. She was basically thrown out there unstrategically and it took horrible luck to reduce her to near death. Rutger's durability win isn't significant since Fir's is already more than passable in practice.

Let me put this in pure numerical terms. If Fir is attacked by 4 of those super accurate Mercs, her chance of death is 2.4%. The other enemies having 10 or less Hit than the Mercs drops that in practice. Only two at a time can possibly attack her, and that's at the start. The Bolting Sage does a lot of damage to anyone, but it's likely to ignore her or miss since it has 11 less Hit than the Mercs (which means the True Hit is pretty low).

She is essentially on par with the best unit in the game in terms of combat power. Yeah, she loses, but that's to be expected when it's Rutger; he's beating the units above him by even more in terms of combat power.

Starting in Chapter 16x:

Fir not Neglected and Sandbagged vs the Paladin Gods

Fir: 20/3 Swordmaster

HP: 44.75

Str: 17.25

Skl: 23.0

Spd: 23.1

Lck: 15.5

Def: 10.15

Res: 8.2

Mov: 6

Swords

+30 Crit

C Shin: +5 Hit, +2 Crit, +5 Evd, +2 Crit Evd

20/5 Lance:

HP: 41.4

Str: 16.2

Skl: 18.3

Spd: 21.4

Lck: 10.0

Def: 12.6

Res: 6.4

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords, Axes

A Alan: +3 Atk, +7 Hit, +7 Crit, +15 Evd, +1 Def/Res, +7 Crit Evd

Both easily one-round everything on the map...except Fir actually destroys Windam easily while Lance certainly does not. 46 HP/17 Def/78 Evd = no joke. Lance won't kill even if he doubles and hits both times with a Silver Lance, but Fir has monster Crit for an easy kill. I neglected to include the Roy support due to how infrequently those bonuses are in play, especially when Bolting/Purge/lance/ranged enemies keep Roy from being able to move freely. He counters and rapes scrubby Mages. Lance does NOT one-round the Cavaliers with a Hand Axe on the counter, while Fir has huge chances to just one-round on her turn. Lance's advantages are Mov and one-rounding scrubby Mages everyone can kill (except Lot, who you think is good or something, lol). Let's look at what matters...the strong enemies. Taking out the garbage isn't special.

20/6 Paladin: 48 HP, 12 Def, 34 Evd, 8 Crit Evd --- 29 Atk, 99 Hit

vs Lancereaver Fir: 13.78 Hit, does 18 Dmg to 45 HP, dead in 3 hits. Faces 100 Hit, 15x2 Dmg, 40 Crit. 64% chance of death. Fir can sacrifice durability to bloat her chance of killing to 91%.

vs Killer Axe Lance: 9.90 Hit, does 14-15 Dmg to 41 HP, dead in 3 hits. Faces 97.69 Hit, 19x2 Dmg, 38 Crit. 61.6% chance of death. Lance can't increase his chances of killing it in one round. The Halberd does not OHKO.

20/6 Sage: 35 HP, 7 Def, 28 Evd, 6 Crit Evd --- 29 Atk, 114 Hit

vs Killing Edge Fir: 48.51 Hit, does 21 Dmg to 45 HP, kills in 3 Hits. Faces 100 Hit, dies in two hits, faces 67 Crit. 67% chance Fir takes no counter.

vs Killing Edge Lance: 44.65 Hit, does 22 Dmg to 41 HP, kills in 2 hits. Faces 100 Hit, dies in two hits, faces 40 Crit.

vs Javelin Lance: Same offense. Faces 86.74 Hit, dies in two hits, faces 10 Crit.

There is essentially no difference in Lance baiting first and then countering and killing and Fir baiting first and then killing in terms of durability. If Lance misses once, which he can, then there is no real difference. Fir is one of two units able to very easily kill this enemy without taking a counter, which is good, since it's strong.

20/5 Alan

HP: 43.5

Str: 19.3

Skl: 15.2

Spd: 18.3

Lck: 12.2

Def: 13.7

Res: 5.3

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords, Axes

A Lance: +3 Atk, +7 Hit, +7 Crit, +15 Evd, +1 Def/Res, +7 Crit Evd

Same as Lance but with more Atk (still can't OHKO the Paladin with Halberd) but less Hit (more of a chance to miss the Sage and anything else) and less Spd. Alan can't double the Mercs, so there's a clear win for Fir. He can't double Windam or hit him reliably. His chances of killing the Paladins are lower than Alan's and he's borderline on doubling them.

20/7 Percival:

HP: 52.5

Str: 20.6

Skl: 16.5

Spd: 20.7

Lck: 15.4

Def: 15.4

Res: 13.2

Mov: 8

Lances, Swords, Axes

So hey it's Lance/Alan with more concrete durability. I don't think I need to write up a bunch of numbers here. He's Lance with much less Hit but much more HP.

The average Nomad in 18S has 19 Spd. Speedier Troopers have 21-22 Spd. Alan's not doubling them. Lance is borderline on doubling the average Nomad. Percival is even worse off when it comes to chances of doubling them. They can counter them on the enemy phase with nearly infinite durability, but they won't kill them. The best they can do is hit them once a little over half the time. That's fine. Almost anyone can do that. Lance, Alan, and Percival all are worse at this than Klein, Shin, Gonzales, Clarine, and other units. It's optimal to use them as the bait to lure them in on enemy phase. Player phase? Big bad Nomad Troopers are around. It's not uncommon to have 3-4 in your midst at one time. These enemies don't suck and have swords with them too. Who kills them reliably? Rutger and Fir. Gonzales has horrendous Hit, so he's not reliable. Monke has 21 AS, Brave weapons, and 77 Evd...meaning Rutger and Fir are ideal to kill him, and perhaps Shin. No other unit is as good.

If being top tier means "I can clear out the garbage that almost anyone can kill, and I'm invincible like everyone else is against the garbage" then that is kind of sad.

Fir seems to be comparing to the best units in the game, so how is she slightly worse than the rest of the team? Yes, they are better. Fir is not top tier. Is Fir two tiers worse than them? I don't think so. She's certainly much better Lot. Lot is always mediocre.

Fir vs. Lott, debate correct? Fine, I'll do it. I take Lott and you take Fir.

Don't think blanket statements will let you win against me either.

Formal debate in the FE Debate board? :)

[dondon151]

Idc about your flaming and other stuff, so I'm only going to address my main argument.

I don't really give a shit about your supposed ignorance either. If you continue to assert the opposite of what I said, and fail to adequately address it, the rest of your argument doesn't even get off the ground. That's a shame for you, I guess.

Rutger vs. Fir, 16x

Fir is not promoting in 16x and reaching 20/3 in that same chapter. Additionally, performing similarly to Rutger at this point is not saying much. Rutger is top tier because of earlygame, not because he does well lategame. His 26 atk with Killing Edge fails to cleanly ORKO anything on the map except for mages and archers; in all instances he needs to proc a crit to ORKO, and in the cases of the paladins and snipers he fails to OHKO even after a crit. 20/2 Lance @ Killer Lance with A Alan has 28 atk, which cleanly ORKOs mercs, and he has access to the Horseslayer, which cleanly blicks cavs. Alan doesn't even need the Horseslayer to ORKO cavs. I suppose Rutger has an easier time with bosses than anyone else, but since you already have Rutger for that, you don't need Fir.

Raw statistics aren't everything either. A player will rarely put Rutger in a situation where he has to counter on enemy phase because he lacks 2 range. And Rutger loses 2 move to the best units on the team. He is really far from being the best unit on the team - Percival, Alan, Lance, Miledy are pretty much the best in terms of units running ahead and maximizing enemy phase exposure, and sporting "good player phase" isn't exactly special.

Let's look at what matters...the strong enemies. Taking out the garbage isn't special.

It is when Fir has trouble doing it. Just going up the right side, 9/15 enemies can attack from 2 range. Fir has trouble killing 9/15 enemies on the right side. That's special indeed, if special implies the really bad kind of special. Like the kind that you use to call the really stupid kid in your class.

20/6 Paladin: 48 HP, 12 Def, 34 Evd, 8 Crit Evd --- 29 Atk, 99 Hit

vs Lancereaver Fir: 13.78 Hit, does 18 Dmg to 45 HP, dead in 3 hits. Faces 100 Hit, 15x2 Dmg, 40 Crit. 64% chance of death. Fir can sacrifice durability to bloat her chance of killing to 91%.

vs Killer Axe Lance: 9.90 Hit, does 14-15 Dmg to 41 HP, dead in 3 hits. Faces 97.69 Hit, 19x2 Dmg, 38 Crit. 61.6% chance of death. Lance can't increase his chances of killing it in one round. The Halberd does not OHKO.

Lance still doubles with Halberd or Horseslayer for a guaranteed ORKO.

There is essentially no difference in Lance baiting first and then countering and killing and Fir baiting first and then killing in terms of durability. If Lance misses once, which he can, then there is no real difference. Fir is one of two units able to very easily kill this enemy without taking a counter, which is good, since it's strong.

Of course there is. You're just saying there isn't because it conveniently supports your argument, but in practice it's much different. Lance would put himself in range of more than just the sage on enemy phase - if he puts himself in range of the sage and the mage, that's 1 enemy dead plus 1 enemy damaged, whereas Fir in this situation leaves them both unscathed. And I guess there's an armor there too.

Same as Lance but with more Atk (still can't OHKO the Paladin with Halberd) but less Hit (more of a chance to miss the Sage and anything else) and less Spd. Alan can't double the Mercs, so there's a clear win for Fir. He can't double Windam or hit him reliably. His chances of killing the Paladins are lower than Alan's and he's borderline on doubling them.

Actually, Alan can double the mercs. They have 13-14 AS. Alan is so ballin' that he can ORKO cavs with a Hand Axe at 20/2. As opposed to Fir not doing anything... yeah.

So hey it's Lance/Alan with more concrete durability. I don't think I need to write up a bunch of numbers here. He's Lance with much less Hit but much more HP.

Oh yeah, Percival also ORKOs cavs with a Hand Axe.

The average Nomad in 18S has 19 Spd. Speedier Troopers have 21-22 Spd. Alan's not doubling them. Lance is borderline on doubling the average Nomad. Percival is even worse off when it comes to chances of doubling them. They can counter them on the enemy phase with nearly infinite durability, but they won't kill them. The best they can do is hit them once a little over half the time. That's fine. Almost anyone can do that. Lance, Alan, and Percival all are worse at this than Klein, Shin, Gonzales, Clarine, and other units. It's optimal to use them as the bait to lure them in on enemy phase. Player phase? Big bad Nomad Troopers are around. It's not uncommon to have 3-4 in your midst at one time. These enemies don't suck and have swords with them too. Who kills them reliably? Rutger and Fir. Gonzales has horrendous Hit, so he's not reliable. Monke has 21 AS, Brave weapons, and 77 Evd...meaning Rutger and Fir are ideal to kill him, and perhaps Shin. No other unit is as good.

Your numbers are wrong again. The vast majority of nomads in 18S have 17-18 AS. Lance doubles them pretty comfortably by 20/6 and actually ORKOs them with a Javelin by 20/7. Percival is the same at 20/11, but that might be too generous - the point is that it's not too unlikely that Percival has 21-22 AS and be in the same boat as Lance. And there's always the option to Speedwings Alan, which puts him at 21-22 AS and ORKOing.

But just because your paladins are failing at consistent ORKOing doesn't mean that Fir is in a better position. Klein and Igrene at base level are ORKOing nomads with the Brave Bow. Shin at 20/1 is doing the same with a Killer Bow. There are still units that totally outclass her; them being different units than usual doesn't mean anything. As for Monke and NTs, you have brave weapons to work with, and Rutger is still around to outclass Fir.

If being top tier means "I can clear out the garbage that almost anyone can kill, and I'm invincible like everyone else is against the garbage" then that is kind of sad.

That's exactly what top tier means. Mediocre units like Noah, Geese, or OJ are even having trouble doing that.

Edited March 4, 2010 by dondon151

[Inui]

Actually, Alan can double the mercs. They have 13-14 AS. Alan is so ballin' that he can ORKO cavs with a Hand Axe at 20/2. As opposed to Fir not doing anything... yeah.

The slowest Merc in 16x I'm looking at has 15 AS.

Oh yeah, Percival also ORKOs cavs with a Hand Axe.

Only the shittiest ones. They sometimes get 40 HP/10 Def.

Fir is not promoting in 16x and reaching 20/3 in that same chapter.

Correct. She's promoting in 16.

Additionally, performing similarly to Rutger at this point is not saying much. Rutger is top tier because of earlygame, not because he does well lategame. His 26 atk with Killing Edge fails to cleanly ORKO anything on the map except for mages and archers; in all instances he needs to proc a crit to ORKO, and in the cases of the paladins and snipers he fails to OHKO even after a crit. 20/2 Lance @ Killer Lance with A Alan has 28 atk, which cleanly ORKOs mercs, and he has access to the Horseslayer, which cleanly blicks cavs. Alan doesn't even need the Horseslayer to ORKO cavs. I suppose Rutger has an easier time with bosses than anyone else, but since you already have Rutger for that, you don't need Fir.

Um...Rutger can use other weapons. He still has more Crit than Alan with a basic weapon than he has with Killer stuff. Rutger can use a Silver Sword. Fir can also use these weapons.

Your numbers are wrong again. The vast majority of nomads in 18S have 17-18 AS. Lance doubles them pretty comfortably by 20/6 and actually ORKOs them with a Javelin by 20/7. Percival is the same at 20/11, but that might be too generous - the point is that it's not too unlikely that Percival has 21-22 AS and be in the same boat as Lance. And there's always the option to Speedwings Alan, which puts him at 21-22 AS and ORKOing.

But just because your paladins are failing at consistent ORKOing doesn't mean that Fir is in a better position. Klein and Igrene at base level are ORKOing nomads with the Brave Bow. Shin at 20/1 is doing the same with a Killer Bow. There are still units that totally outclass her; them being different units than usual doesn't mean anything. As for Monke and NTs, you have brave weapons to work with, and Rutger is still around to outclass Fir.

I don't understand how my numbers can be wrong. I am looking at the chapter right now. Do I have a different game? IM me on AIM, I'll send you my save file, and you can load my current savestate and see for yourself. There is one 18 Spd Nomad, one 17 Spd Nomad, one 16 Spd Nomad, and the rest are 19-22.

Klein and Igrene don't have the durability for that. They can get doubled if they miss and their Evd is hurt too much. You only have one Rutger and a few Brave weapons, yet there are many bosses, Troopers, and WLs to kill. Fir's existence means you can use Brave weapons on something else, like some other bosses and tougher shit later on.

That's exactly what top tier means. Mediocre units like Noah, Geese, or OJ are even having trouble doing that.

So is Lot, and he's above Fir by several spots despite being worse.

[Dat Nick]

Seriously, don't post such a gross mis-representation of my argument and pretend that it proves anything.

It's not a misinterpretation. The post I referred to basically said Zealot>Lugh because Zealot shitstomps him in 8x. So I'm saying Marcus>Alan/Lance because Marcus shitstomps those two in C1-4.

Ofcourse the comparisons are redundant.

So stop posting them, and start explaining how Lugh's wins lategame<Zealot's wins earlygame. That's how you argue Zealot>Lugh.

I mean, after all, you just admitted that stating Zealot is superior earlygame is redundant and doesn't prove anything.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Inui]

If Lugh's lategame exceeds Zealot's earlygame and makes him better, why doesn't Fir's MIDGAME to lategame rape of Lot make her exceed him as a unit?

What an inconsistent load of shit...

Edited March 4, 2010 by Inui

[Dat Nick]

If Lugh's lategame exceeds Zealot's earlygame and makes him better

Quote the portion of my post where I said that.

I'm rather indifferent on the issue, although I only side slightly with Lugh because A: I think Zealot's god-awfulness latergame is being completely hand-waved, and B: I just had to pounce on CATS'S self-admitted redundant logic.

[dondon151]

Correct. She's promoting in 16.

You're buying the Hero Crest at the very tail end of 16.

Um...Rutger can use other weapons. He still has more Crit than Alan with a basic weapon than he has with Killer stuff. Rutger can use a Silver Sword. Fir can also use these weapons.

You have 1 Silver Sword from the village in chapter 9 until the first shop that sells them somewhere in 17S or 18I or something. The Silver Sword might be used up by now, especially since prior to promotion Rutger doesn't have a crit buffer and needs Silver Sword to ORKO brigands and fighters. Dieck might also have used it. Fir starts with D swords and won't have access to silver until after promotion.

I don't understand how my numbers can be wrong. I am looking at the chapter right now. Do I have a different game? IM me on AIM, I'll send you my save file, and you can load my current savestate and see for yourself. There is one 18 Spd Nomad, one 17 Spd Nomad, one 16 Spd Nomad, and the rest are 19-22.

Of the 12 nomads on the map, I have 4 17 AS, 4 18 AS, 2 19 AS, 2 20 AS. My VBA is old and generally won't load other save files.

Klein and Igrene don't have the durability for that. They can get doubled if they miss and their Evd is hurt too much. You only have one Rutger and a few Brave weapons, yet there are many bosses, Troopers, and WLs to kill. Fir's existence means you can use Brave weapons on something else, like some other bosses and tougher shit later on.

--/7 Klein with A Clarine, B Tate takes 3x2 or 4x2 if he misses. He has about 90 disp... the chances of him missing the ORKO are very low (3.8%). You could take away B Tate and it because 5x2 or 6x2 if he misses, but he'd still be able to survive missing 3 times. His disp hit drops to 80, yielding a 15% chance of missing an ORKO. Getting the Tate support in helps him immensely, and I doubt you'll contest the Clarine support, but either way Klein rapes face. If you could form a wall of 3 units that can counter from 2 range, they'll probably go after Klein since he's the weakest defensively, and he'll ORKO them all. Igrene is a little worse because she doesn't have supports.

I came out of Sacae with 9 uses left on the Brave Bow, 12 uses left on the Brave Lance, and 26 uses left on the Brave Axe. The game gives you plenty of resources. I didn't even have Rutger! Or rather, I did, but he kind of sucked.

So is Lot, and he's above Fir by several spots despite being worse.

Lot is not top tier. Lot is 2 tiers away from top tier. Do I need to point out again how Fir lacks top tier qualities too?

Edited March 4, 2010 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

You're buying the Hero Crest at the very tail end of 16x.

You mean at the tail end of 16, since they aren't buyable in 16x.

[dondon151]

Yeah, thanks for catching that.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I know this sort of thing can get frustrating but still, refrain from flaming. If you have any questions, PM me or anyone else on the staff.

[Reikken]

Echidna is slightly more durable and has better overall offense due to axes but they are essentially the same against axe using enemies.

I didn't read the rest of your post, but I'm very certain that Fir can't double and one-round fighters with a steel blade (and/or steel/killer axe) like Echidna can.

I also saw you tried to compare Fir to Rutger. Rutger is good because he gets ninety-billion crit (and hit) (and avoid). Fir doesn't. Therefore, she is much worse. Also lol at you sandbagging everyone you compare Fir to. Fir joins quite underleveled, so her level is lower forever, unless you give her more exp, which has an opportunity cost attached to it that you've been ignoring. This isn't a ranked list, so there's no exp rank to help counter that opportunity cost. And Fir's supports are worse, and you counter that by nerfing everyone else's supports. Nice.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Speedwagon

[CATS]

It's not a misinterpretation.

Ofcourse it is. You took one post out of context while ignoring everything else I've said on the subject.

So stop posting them, and start explaining how Lugh's wins lategame<Zealot's wins earlygame. That's how you argue Zealot>Lugh.

Except that I already talked about that.

I mean, after all, you just admitted that stating Zealot is superior earlygame is redundant and doesn't prove anything.

It proves that Zealot is miles better during the only time period where either one is getting used, aside from Ch 4 and 5 for Lugh I guess. If you think Lugh winning lategame is important, I'll brb after I type up a Bartre > Geitz post for the FE7 list, along with probably several other similar arguments.

[frat_tastic]

Isn't Lugh significantly better than Zealot in the latter part of the game, compared to Bartre being minimally better than Geitz?

[CATS]

Depends on your definition of "significantly" and the timeframe. If you mean like Ch 16-20, maybe, maybe not. Ch 21 on, probably so. Keep in mind Zealot also rapes Lugh for a good stretch of time, whereas a trained Bartre is never losing to Geitz by any significant amount.

Anyways, the point is the same. A tier gap in Geitz's favor isn't justified at all under such a mindset.