FE7 HHM tier list unranked/efficiency v3

[Colonel M]

Actually bb those don't tell the entire picture. C28 (if it's Cog of Destiny) has about 3-4 Luna Druids (2 with near-capped Magic near Lloyd / Linus). Those only assume NM, not HM.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Inui]

28: You were wrong, not a single druid, let alone a Luna. http://fireemblemwod.net/fe7/guiafe7/cap28h.htm

there is one in the bottom left that you can steal an Earth Seal from

29: whut? http://fireemblemwod.net/fe7/guiafe7/cap29h.htm

That's not HHM. HHM has all magic users for enemies, with 3 Luna Shamans and 3 Luna Druids.

[dondon151]

The druid in Battle Before Dawn doesn't move, though.

[Florete]

He's not being protected because he's in danger, he's being "protected" because we can't have him getting attacked, which would cause him to counterattack, and thus spoil the EXP rank.

This isn't the ranked list.

[CATS]

You DO know I had the word "protect" in quotation marks, right? He's not being protected because he's in danger, he's being "protected" because we can't have him getting attacked, which would cause him to counterattack, and thus spoil the EXP rank.

Yes, I know exactly what you meant. That's why I didn't say that Hector isn't dying. I specifically said he isn't getting attacked. His Def is 17-18 and his Eliwood support gives him +3. The enemy will target pretty much anyone else over Hector.

Oh, and if you're tagging Hector along with Eliwood 24/7 (which isn't always a good idea, because Hector cannot be allowed where the main action is, seeing as how he can't be attacked once he level caps and all) then it just means that Harken wins mobility for sure because he doesn't have a 5 move brick weighing him down.

If it's necessary to bumrush to the extent that Hector is left behind, then Eliwood has a significant advantage over Harken simply due to +1 move. BBD is probably the best example.

They exist? So what? There are so few of them it doesn't amount to anything. Try all you want, but you're not going to hand-waved Harken's advantages over Eliwood with "Luna Druids lol" which is basically what you did since you addressed no other enemy type in your post.

Don't generalize and exaggerate. I didn't say Eliwood > Harken because Luna Druids exist. I very clearly stated that Eliwood > Harken for various reasons, Luna Druids being one of them.

Yes, their numbers are few (though greater than how many you counted, since the maps you gave aren't HHM). If there were alot of them, I would probably argue Eliwood > Harken based on this alone, since they have a large attack range (up to 8 squares away), they have 2 range, and it's difficult to block them off with alot of other units because so many are facing critrates from them (and a Luna crit is instant death for anyone). Harken can't function at all in an area that has even one of them present.

No, it's not. If you suck or are mediocre all game, I really don't care how often you're available or how often you've been forced. Are we going to give Gordin ten times the credit he deserves just because he joins in C1 and is forced for three chapters? No. I really can't say Eliwood is one of your better units at any point in the game before he promotes. Him being forced alone is a weak argument, since for the portion of the earlygame that he IS forced, he's arguably your worst unit. I can use that to devalue his "forced contributions", easily. Oh, and in C12 he's going to kill almost nothing, so that chapter may as well not even exist.

You can use it to devalue his contributions, certainly. However, they cannot be ignored, and the fact that they are less than those of other units does not change the fact that they exist.

Edited March 7, 2010 by CATS

[Mekkah]

Really hate to keep repeating myself on this but it's like nobody ever responds to it: the easier solution to this kind of thing would be to erase tier gaps in general rather than moving people around. We move Eliwood down to Upper Mid? Now suddenly Guy is a tier up on him, and Guy is also a tier up on Lucius/Canas who are also a tier lower than Erk, which means some of that needs moving around as well.

I could think up about a hundred arguments on "is there really a tier gap (or two) between ___ and ____?", all based on sandbagging or hyping availability or combat distinguishing. Cavs a tier up on Oswin? Florina a tier up on Fiora? Isadora a tier up on Heath?

I think you do not need six tiers (five significant gaps in performance) for this game. You could do with one or even two less.

Is there anyone who has an opinion on this?

EDIT:

whipped up something at Puggy's request just to show what I mean. don't really want to hi-jack this list...just trying to get a point across.

-High-

Marcus

Priscilla

Serra

Hector

Matthew

Lowen

Sain

Kent

Oswin

Raven

Ninian/Nils

Erk

Canas

Lucius

Guy

Pent

Harken

-Mid-

Florina

Fiora

Eliwood

Dorcas

Heath

Bartre

Hawkeye

Geitz

Dart

Isadora

Rebecca

Lyn

Legault

Athos

-Low-

Rath

Louise

Karel

Jaffar

Farina

Vaida

Wil

Wallace

Renault

Karla

Nino

Edited March 7, 2010 by Mekkah

[Dat Nick]

Yes, their numbers are few (though greater than how many you counted, since the maps you gave aren't HHM).

Um, yes, they are, unless specified otherwise. Nice try.

However, they cannot be ignored, and the fact that they are less than those of other units does not change the fact that they exist.

Nobody's ignoring them, I'm saying you can't put too much weight on them since he IS a poor unit for a lot of this time.

Edited March 7, 2010 by s Portsman

[Colonel M]

I think it's okay, but I kind of question some of those propositions (how Dorcas and Bartre > Geitz for starters, how Heath is inbetween them) unless this is just an example.

[Reikken]

wtf...

How is Priscilla (and Serra) above Lowen/Kent when exp rank DNE?

[CATS]

Nobody's ignoring them, I'm saying you can't put too much weight on them since he IS a poor unit for a lot of this time.

Nobody's putting too much weight on them, either. If you put exactly as much weight on them as they deserve, they still provide a very significant advantage for Eliwood over Harken. Consider that Eliwood has more chapters where he's forced than Harken has chapters where he exists.

No opinion on removing tier gaps.

Edited March 7, 2010 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

Bartre's forced earlygame. Rebecca's forced earlygame. What's that doing for their tier positions? I really need a LOT more than "he exists earlygame but it's no matter if he's the worst unit on the team HE STILL HELPZ" to convince me there's a tier gap.

[CATS]

I really need a LOT more than "he exists earlygame but it's no matter if he's the worst unit on the team HE STILL HELPZ" to convince me there's a tier gap.

I'm not really concerned with convincing you. If you want to keep thinking Harken >= Eliwood, w/e, that's your opinion. I don't care, there's no reason that I should, and no reason that anyone else should, either. I'm concerned only with showing Eliwood > Harken by a substantial margin.

Comparing Eliwood to other units during his forced chapters does not change his abilities or his contributions during those chapters. 15 Eliwood in Ch 22 has 12.3 Str and 12.6 Spd. Sain has 5 more base Atk and 1 less Spd. From this we can conclude that Sain's offense is better than Eliwood's and contributing more. But regardless of the fact that Sain has more, Eliwood still has 12-13 Atk and Spd and is very capable of attacking and killing enemies. Meanwhile, Harken during Ch 22 has 0 Atk and Spd. He contributes nothing. Sain > Eliwood on Ch 22 indeed, but Eliwood >> Harken on this chapter. Sain being better does nothing whatsoever to change this fact; insisting that Eliwood is worse than other high or top tier units during his forced chapters is entirely pointless and proves nothing relevant to Eliwood vs Harken.

Paraphrasing the argument in quotation marks and applying caps lock to a few words doesn't invalidate it, either.

Edited March 7, 2010 by CATS

[Mekkah]

wtf...

How is Priscilla (and Serra) above Lowen/Kent when exp rank DNE?

Dunno if this was directed at my list or the one in the OP, but the positions in mine aren't really what I'm putting up for discussion - it's the lack of tier gaps.

For them in the official list...without either you have to use vulneraries/elixirs to keep yourselves alive which sucks a lot, but of course if you have either then the other isn't worth a whole lot (kind of like with Matt/Legault). I think there's something to say for it.

[Dat Nick]

Seeing as how you didn't have any response for the Bartre/Rebecca analogy as to how availability doesn't make a character, I'm nearly ready to assume you're conceding to my point.

[CATS]

Seeing as how you didn't have any response for the Bartre/Rebecca analogy as to how availability doesn't make a character, I'm nearly ready to assume you're conceding to my point.

I'm nearly ready to assume you're trolling. Your point is irrelevant and meaningless, as explained already, so I don't know why you insist on pretending that it carries weight. Bartre/Rebecca is the same--their tier positions have no relevance to Eliwood vs Harken. It's possible that their forced chapters are undervalued and that they are too low on the list. However, this would only prove that they need to go up. Not that Eliwood needs to go down. Also keep in mind that Eliwood has atleast twice as many forced chapters as those two.

[Dat Nick]

Your point is irrelevant and meaningless, as explained already

It isn't irrelevant. Nor is it meaningless. I'm sick of you hand-waving the fact that Eliwood being the worst unit on the team devalues how much he actually contributes before Harken appears, BECAUSE I'M NOT DISREGARDING HIS PERFORMANCE ALTOGETHER LIKE YOU KEEP THINKING I AM. I said it DEVALUES it, not that it negates it entirely. So you repeating "BUT IT STILL MATTERS" is just telling me what I'm already telling you. Stop. Wendy exists in Chapters 8-23 and Karel doesn't. By this logic, Wendy>Karel. Existing does not excuse you from sucking. Obviously this is an overblown statement since Eliwood is not the worst unit on the team for his ENTIRE existence, but even you should get the analogy here. Eliwood being the worst unit on the team despite being forced DOES matter, so stop pretending it doesn't.

Bartre/Rebecca is the same--their tier positions have no relevance to Eliwood vs Harken

No, but they have a HELL of a lot of relevance to the fact of "existing earlygame and being one of the worst units on the team doesn't make you High tier". Which is why I bought them up.

It's possible that their forced chapters are undervalued and that they are too low on the list.

They're not going to leapfrog to Upper Mid for existing earlygame, dude.

[CATS]

It isn't irrelevant. Nor is it meaningless.

Certainly it is both. Does the fact that Sain > Eliwood on Ch 22 change Eliwood's stats or his ability to kill enemies? No, obviously it doesn't. It plainly has no bearing on Eliwood's contributions relative to Harken during this chapter, and hence no relevance to Harken vs Eliwood. I'm not going to bother responding again unless you have something new to say, since you're repeating yourself and the discussion is going nowhere.

Edited March 8, 2010 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

I'm not going to bother responding again unless you have something new to say, since you're repeating yourself

Me: "okay sure eliwood is there earlygame but he's still liek the worst unit on the team, he's ok for midgame then late he kinda sucks until he promotes. availability is not the deciding factor here"

you: "no it is because he's there"

me: "okay that doesn't change the fact he's the worst unit and thus this devalues his contributions"

you: "yeah but he's still there so he's a tier up on harken"

Don't be a hypocrite, you're ten times the broken record I am.

But yeah, I'm just going to wait until somebody who isn't a broken record to post favoring Eliwood.

[Reikken]

For them in the official list...without either you have to use vulneraries/elixirs to keep yourselves alive which sucks a lot, but of course if you have either then the other isn't worth a whole lot (kind of like with Matt/Legault). I think there's something to say for it.

There are two, as you said, so it's not omg instant top tier. And even there being only two only lasts until you get a guiding ring. Then you can have three. If you can't have any other healers, then of course a healer is wtfw1n, but that's not the case at all here.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Reikken

[Florete]

There are two, as you said, so it's not omg instant top tier. And even there being only two only lasts until you get a guiding ring. Then you can have three. If you can't have any other healers, then of course a healer is wtfw1n, but that's not the case at all here.

I don't really like this sort of logic. Are you saying that if there was only one, that one would be fine in Top tier? Why is that? No matter which one I use I'm getting Top tier performance, so why should they be any lower than that? Because you might not need both? That's why I said earlier that it's best to focus on one with the other around as occasional backup. This easily gives the best performance out of either one.

It's like, if Karel was magically better and ended up just as good as Harken to the point where it could barely, if at all, be determined who wins, and it was agreed that either alone are High tier worthy, would they drop to Upper Mid for canceling each other out? Obviously Serra and Priscilla isn't exactly the same, but it isn't a whole lot different either.

By the way, Mekkah, I do agree on having fewer tier gaps, but I think you have too few. I'll work on changing it a bit later.

[Inui]

I find neither healer to be top tier without the Experience rank, especially Priscilla. Maybe Serra still is due to promoting earlier and being around longer, but at the bottom of it.

Eliwood is better than Harken.

[Florete]

I don't think anyone opposed to Pent going to High, so I'll do that if no one objects. Also, did anyone oppose to Guy > Eliwood?

Not sure on the Eliwood vs Harken thing as of now. I'm leaning towards Eliwood being better, but really not sure about the tier gap.

Also, what does everyone think about Geitz vs Harken? Harken is probably better when both exist, but not by a lot and Geitz has ~3 1/2 maps on him. When you include support options, I think Geitz might pull an edge.

I find neither healer to be top tier without the Experience rank, especially Priscilla. Maybe Serra still is due to promoting earlier and being around longer, but at the bottom of it.

I already explained why Priscilla > Serra here and you never really responded. You only continued to try arguing both down.

[Colonel M]

No, if Priscilla was High Tier, then Serra would also go with her. Serra's main advantage with Ranks was she was assumed at a high level due to Rank requirements. Here, it's very possible to walk out of LHM with little use of Serra and having her barely any higher in levels than Priscilla. Then, in that scenario, we have the Pony helping her reach the mounted units better and her supports are more realistic (Raven and Erk supports are rather fast; 20+3 and 15+3).

[Inui]

Serra loses some of her level lead. Priscilla loses her godlike Experience rank contributions. Seems pretty balanced to me. Either way, neither of them deserve top tier at all. They're both promoting later and don't have the Experience rank to buff them on a tier list.

Geitz = Harken. I can't decide.

[frat_tastic]

I'd take Harken fo sho. Harken's basically better in every way in exchange for a little availability. I guess Geitz being around a little longer is useful, but Harken kinda dominates him, and then has better supports (like actually getting anywhere with them thanks to super fast Isadora support).