FE7 HHM tier list unranked/efficiency v3

[Florete]

Vykan12's tier list FAQ made of win and awesome. Read before posting, scrubs are annoying.

LHM is assumed.

-Top-

Marcus

Raven

Priscilla

Serra

Ninian/Nils

Matthew

Lowen

Sain

Kent

-High-

Oswin

Hector

Erk

Guy

Eliwood

Pent

-Upper Middle-

Harken

Geitz

Canas

Lucius

Florina

Dart

Hawkeye

Dorcas

Legault

Isadora

-Middle-

Rebecca

Fiora

Lyn

Bartre

Heath

Rath

Farina

-Lower Middle-

Jaffar

Karel

Athos

Vaida

Louise

Wil

-Low-

Wallace

Renault

Karla

Nino

Edited December 11, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[Colonel M]

Thinking with ranked, is there really a tier difference between Lucius and Canas in here too? I understand Lucius > Canas, but a tier difference seems unlikely to me.

If an argument is needed, I'll give it a shot.

[HJ.]

Is Lucius even > Canas at all? Lucius has his own slew of problems early on, and while they're not the same as Canas', they're problems nonetheless. Nosferatu matters even more if you're focusing SOLELY on speed, btw.

Also, if we're speedrunning then supports seem unlikely, which hurts Lucius MUCH more than Canas. Don't forget Canas wins for liek, the entire game after both promote.

[Life]

What's the reasoning for Lowen > Sain > Kent? I'm thinking other way round because Kent can double enemies sooner (reasoning behind Lance > Alan in FE6) while Lowen has atrocious offense in comparison to the other two.

[Colonel M]

What's the reasoning for Lowen > Sain > Kent? I'm thinking other way round because Kent can double enemies sooner (reasoning behind Lance > Alan in FE6) while Lowen has atrocious offense in comparison to the other two.

To be honest, Lowen doesn't do so badly in offense.

With Kent, I think he'd miss ORKOes more often. Kent has 6 Atk with a 40% growth while Sain starts with 8 and a 60% growth. So pretty much on the offensive side of the spectrum, Sain will always destroy Kent. For the Spd difference, Kent has a base of 7 while Sain has a base of 6. Kent leads with a 5% growth. But the point is that Sain isn't that far behind Kent as far as AS goes, and once Sain hits the capability to double (which isn't too far off), Sain will be killing the opponents easily.

With Lowen, he has a bit of a larger availability lead against these guys. To be honest, I might question Lowen > the bros, but I would still value Lowen being a tank on wheels to be a bit better in some scenarios (20/1 with Oswin-lite durability is nothing to scoff at).

[CATS]

Lowen's availability is a good tie-breaker, particularly considering 12 through 14 is forced deployment/no opportunity cost of deployment.

[_____]

As minor as it is, Lowen is able to use a Steel Sword without AS loss, while Kent and Sain can't. Like I said, it's minor, but I guess it matters for mid-game.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Ninji

[dondon151]

Thinking with ranked, is there really a tier difference between Lucius and Canas in here too? I understand Lucius > Canas, but a tier difference seems unlikely to me.

I think Canas > Lucius because there are no qualms now about promoting Canas early.

[Florete]

I'm fine with Canas > Lucius. How should it happen, though?

[dondon151]

Canas up, Lucius down, combination of both.

I really don't think that Lucius and his amazing durability constitute a high tier unit, though.

[Florete]

Moved Canas just below Geitz, Lucius right under.

[Crysta]

Kent will start DAing non-crap enemies around 3/4 levels sooner than Sain. Or at least that's usually how it went for me. Sain will have a much easier time OHKOing, though, which I find incredibly useful in certain situations (namely situations when I need something to die horribly) and sometimes can cancel out the awesomeness of DAing.

Lowen's offense makes me cry, but during the time he's there and the others aren't he isn't doing that terribly.

[grandjackal]

I must ask something about Serra.

Are we considering blowing through Lyn mode efficiently like the rest of the game? If so, I think her and Lucius are a bit more comparable than that...

That is, unless someone can explain to me how she can get to higher levels where Lucius would only be level 10 for an early promotion item.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Inui]

Are we playing LHM at all? If so, I see no reason for Lowen and his failure offense to be above Kent and Sain or even top tier at all.

[Colonel M]

Are we playing LHM at all? If so, I see no reason for Lowen and his failure offense to be above Kent and Sain or even top tier at all.

Your proof? Lowen also has king durability figures.

[Inui]

Your proof? Lowen also has king durability figures.

Are we playing LHM on this list? I need that answered.

Durability...isn't a big deal. If Marcus and his pathetic stats can manage to be durable in VoD, then almost anyone can manage. Lowen is fine at tanking, but he's not killing, and killing is how you proceed in chapters. If this was a "see how long I can survive" tier list, then Lowen can be high up, but from what I know, we are trying to beat the game quickly, which Lowen is quite horrible at due to not killing what attacks him. He's Oswin with +3 Mov and like -6 Atk. At least Oswin has hopes of one-shotting and will certainly kill whatever he manages to double. Kent and Sain are both nearly invincible and kill what attacks them.

[Colonel M]

Yes, this list does assume LHM. I'll respond to the other stuff later if I can.

[Inui]

Then Kent and Sain should both be above Raven, rofl. Kent and Sain duo = insane rape at blitzkrieg. They demolish everything in their path and have lances and +2 Mov over Raven. Even in efficiency standards, their support is completely viable. Are Raven's?

Edited February 15, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

Personally I'd say we are doing LHM. It doesn't take long and it only helps. I'm willing to hear arguments on the other side, though. I've also considered separate slots for LHM and non-LHM units like on FE10 but I don't think that would work as well here.

[Inui]

Okay, so if LHM is played, then my points about Kent and Sain stand. I believe they should move up. Way up. They kill everything in their path and will show up at 10/0 and blitzkrieg lategame chapters and make everything else faster in general and they actually have a viable support. Raven has Experience rank over them in a ranked tier list and gets to build supports, but not in this.

Lowen and his failure offense should be in the same area as Oswin. Differences between Oswin and Lowen? Oswin starts off better and has ~7 more Atk and Lowen has +3 Mov. That's about it.

[Narga_Rocks]

Personally I'd say we are doing LHM. It doesn't take long and it only helps. I'm willing to hear arguments on the other side, though. I've also considered separate slots for LHM and non-LHM units like on FE10 but I don't think that would work as well here.

The advantage to the fe10 transfer units was an incredibly easy way to adjudicate exactly what they are able to get. Whether people agree with using the "rule" doesn't really change that under the rule it can be easily determined for most stats whether a unit gets the +2. It's clearly more difficult for all of you to agree upon what levels units will leave LHM.

[Florete]

The advantage to the fe10 transfer units was an incredibly easy way to adjudicate exactly what they are able to get. Whether people agree with using the "rule" doesn't really change that under the rule it can be easily determined for most stats whether a unit gets the +2. It's clearly more difficult for all of you to agree upon what levels units will leave LHM.

That's not even the problem. The problem is how they affect the rest of the list. Unlike transfers, pretty much everyone can be brought to a respectable level in LHM, so there would be no reason to consider them in a void, but that means we have two different sets of units that don't co-exist in the game on the list but should be affecting everyone else evenly, which doesn't work (for example, when discussing Guy, how do you decide if Lyn is lv 2 or 10? Both exist on the list but only one can exist in the game). It would likely require a new list. Unless I'm missing something here.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

That's not even the problem. The problem is how they affect the rest of the list. Unlike transfers, pretty much everyone can be brought to a respectable level in LHM, so there would be no reason to consider them in a void, but that means we have two different sets of units that don't co-exist in the game on the list but should be affecting everyone else evenly, which doesn't work (for example, when discussing Guy, how do you decide if Lyn is lv 2 or 10? Both exist on the list but only one can exist in the game). It would likely require a new list. Unless I'm missing something here.

True, you are right. The void system allows for discussion while making the (N) units not have to move at all relative to other (N) units. With a bunch of extra good units you are stuck with the possibility of some of the non-LM units being not as good earlier on, so later joining non-LM units could move up above ceratin earlier joining non-LM units. But when LM isn't used, that doesn't happen so the earlier joining non-LM unit is more easily > the later joining non-LM unit.

Definitely need two entirely different lists, if anyone is actually interested. One for no LHM, another for LHM used. May as well just leave it as assuming LHM.

Come to think of it, I suppose that this was one of the reasons for the whole void thing.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I think for now I'm just going to assume LHM is played so we can move on with the list. If someone doesn't like that, feel free to make a new list. Or I suppose I could pull an FE6 and put them both in here if that's preferred.

[Inui]

The advantage to the fe10 transfer units was an incredibly easy way to adjudicate exactly what they are able to get. Whether people agree with using the "rule" doesn't really change that under the rule it can be easily determined for most stats whether a unit gets the +2. It's clearly more difficult for all of you to agree upon what levels units will leave LHM.

10 or slightly lower is pretty typical for a unit to end up as in LHM. Since this is efficiency, Funds doesn't matter, so we'd be able to use up the Energy Ring and Angelic Robe (which is a further bonus for Kent and Sain since they need neither and can let someone like Lyn or Erk take them). We're also not really caring about anything but finishing quickly without dying, so ~10 is reasonable, especially for Kent and Sain.

I don't expect huge arguments about what level units are upon leaving. Serra ~8, Dorcas/Kent/Sain/Lyn can be ~10, etc. Not too much of a problem and such numbers are agreeable.