tier list

[grandjackal]

Sothe's part 3 sucks and blows because he's 2HKO'd by tigers forever (he has 40 HP and 20 def caps versus tigers who have around 40 att) and 3HKO'd by cats forever (if lucky he'll escape the 3HKO towards the end of 3-13, whoopie) and his avoid is not good enough to reliably dodge. Volug at base level is 3HKO'd by tigers, and is liek 5HKO'd by cats. This only gets better for Volug because he has lolearth for more avoid than Sothe can ever imagine.

Orly?

Level 4 Sothe with Miccy has 74 avoid base, he needs a C with an avoid support or a B with anyone else to tie it. Considering he is for the most part so far away from everyone through part 1 doing whatever, I find it hard to believe he actually could build a support at relevent speeds. Then of course, there's 1-9 where he's basically clear in his own part of the field, seperated by shitty marsh terrain. Only one I can imagine is Jill, and the support doesn't build fast, especially since they only share 5 battles that give support points (1-6-1 if I recall doesn't do a damn thing for you), and again with 1-9 keeping them seperate (or at least he hardly needs help with lolNailah and Raphael). I'm imagining a C at best, so rather it's tied.

Granted he is obviously solid durably...When he's transformed. The first two turns, no matter what you say this isn't the case. Even more, due to needing to toke up on Olivi Grass or else risk losing his transformation, he can't heal hmself with vulneries which means he needs a healer walking him around. At least Sothe's range gives us flexibility.

Yes, Volug spends two turns grassing, then rapestomps Sothe for the rest of the chapter. 2 turns <<<< the rest of the chapter.

While also dragging healers away from the rest of the team, and not necessarily being transformed all chapter, I could see the point.

It's fun if Sothe throws daggers. Let's see... chipping for single digit damage, or 1RKOing cats and 3HKOing and doubling tigers? Hmm, I wonder which is better...

31 might (20 ATK at level 4, forged steel throwing knife, Miccy support+2) does more than single digit damage to even the burliest Tiger.

Tiger lvl 17

HP 51-52, Atk 41, AS 18, Hit 141, Avo 43, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Volug with S strike isn't even hitting that much harder. Again, this is only a way to do something other than sitting on his ass when he needs to retreat to heal, something Volug can't do even for himself without losing meter.

Besides, who isn't getting torn apart by these laguz aside from Volug and a trained Aran?

Part 3 Volug versus anyone is a hilarious rapestomp in Volug's favor. See the Nolan vs Volug topic on gamefaqs for reference (note that Nolan >>>> Sothe in part 3), because there's really no need to repeat these arguments when they've already been stated.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=932999&topic=44098691

Long as we ignore how much a problem the meter can be, be it missing out on self-healing for grass or having no player phase, or having no ranged option, sure.

Sothe is 20/20/1 and Volug somehow only gets 5 levels over the course of 3-6, 3-12, 3-13, AND 4-P (along with any exp he got in part 1) in the same time frame? Please, let's not joke around here.

ITT, Smash can't read I said 9+2*/1, as in level 10 with 2 BEXP levels.

Reason Sothe has more levels is because he gained more than 1 exp form doing things in part 1, where he had more time to exist.

Volug only has to be about level 25 with SS Strike to beat Sothe in attack forever (28 str + 18 mt baselard vs 13-14 str before transforming + 19 mt strike). A level Volug can reach halfway through 4-3 or so and a strike rank easily obtainable by now vs Sothe's max potential.

Ok great, he's better in endgame like I admit he is, where Sothe is forced and Volug is not. Let's also redo your math.

28+18+2 (from Miccy)=48. (13or14x2)+19=45-47. At worst, Sothe's inbetween.

I can't beli-, did I just correct your fucking basic math?

Throw in Miccy support for Sothe if you want, Volug only needs to gain 4 more levels to match it. That's all I need to say about offense.

Sucks to be Volug then, even with 5 levels he's still vaguely on the fence with no range option.

By the way, Sothe only has a 14% chance to bane on the first hit, and the max it'll ever go up to is 19%, so let's not get excited about such a small chance. And when Volug gets his mastery, lol. Something like 55% chance to 1RKO something versus a 14-19% chance of bringing the enemy to 1 HP on the first attack and then taking a counter before killing it + 14-19% chance to bring the enemy down to 1 HP on the second attack (and unfortunately not killing it off immediately). Let's not go this route, shall we?

It's there, and if you admit that Volug would only be 25 by endgame, how the fuck is he getting his mastery when you need to be level 30 for a satori sign?

This doesn't stop the fact that as tiny as the chance is, it's still there and it's something Volug doesn't have.

Durability (which you again neglected to mention) is a total joke in Volug's favor, and I see why you ignored it.

20/20/1 Sothe, A Miccy... 44 HP, 19.8 def, 18.7 res, 103.45 avo

23 Volug, A Jill... 56.6 HP, 22.4 def, 13.6 res, 115 avo

A Zihark... 56.6 HP, 20.4 def, 11.6 res, 130 avo

3x Warrior lvl 10 (Stl Axe):

52 HP, 40 Atk, 26 AS, 151 Hit, 74 Avo, 21 Def, 14 Res, 13 Crit, 22 Ddg

Sothe loses 45.9% of his HP and faces 47.55 hit (~45 real).

Volug A Jill loses 31.1% of his HP and faces 36 hit (26.26 real).

Volug A Zihark loses 34.6% of his HP and faces 21 hit 9.03 real).

Sothe's chances to die in 3 hits are 9.11%. 24.1% in 4 hits. 40.7% in 5 hits.

VolugxJill's chances to die in 3 hits are 0%. 4 hits, 0.476%. 1.88% in 5.

VolugxZihark's chances to die in 3 are 0.0736%. 0.275% in 4 hits. 0.640% in 5.

Sothe's chances to die in 4 hits is 50.6 times greater than VolugxJill's chances to die in 4. Chances to die in 5 are 21.6 times greater.

Sothe's chances to die in 3 hits are 124 times greater than VolugxZihark's chances to die in 3. Chances to die in 4 are 87.6 times greater. Chances to die in 5 are 63.6 times greater.

Concretely in defense, I believe I already conceded that Volug is tougher (when he's transformed, an issue you are brushing under the rug). However...

Here I took one of the higher hit enemies, where Volug's assraping of Sothe is not as evident. Let me take a less accurate enemy.

2x Dragonmaster lvl 9 (Stl Poleaxe):

48 HP, 43 Atk, 23 AS, 133 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 12 Res, 13 Crit

Sothe loses 52.7% of his HP a hit and faces 29.55 hit (~17.8 real).

VolugxJill loses 36.4% of his HP and faces 18 hit (6.66 real).

VolugxZihark loses 39.9% of his HP and faces 5 hit (0.55 real).

Sothe's chances to die in 2 hits are 3.17%. Chances to die in 3 are 8.38%. DIe in 4 is 14.8%. Die in 5 is 21.8%.

VolugxJill's chances to die in 3 hits are 0.0287%. Chances to die in 4 are 0.109%. Die in 5 are 0.260%. He doesn't even break a 1% chance of dying until 8 hits.

Sothe's chances to die in 3 hits are 292 times greater than Volug's chances to die in 3. Chances to die in 4 are 136 times greater. Chances to die in 5 are 83.8 times greater.

VolugxJill's chances of dying in 11 hits is 3.18%, the same as Sothe's to die in 2.

lol, and I'm not even gonna bother with VolugxZIhark.

This is a rapestomp in Volug's favor, beyond any magnitude Sothe beats Volug in any chapter, ever.

This doesn't happen until Volug gets an A with someone in part 4, since realistically, Volug getting a substantial support for part 3 is not happening (a C is not substantial).

But hey, it's something Narga could back me on saying since he knows best how supports work in this game, but it IS Narga, so I'm willing to bet you're gonna get butt hurt over it anyways.

Most of these items are only there to sell for more gold, and it's not like we really need more when part 4 comes around.

Dragon Foe, Baselard and the Laguz Gem sounds pretty substantial to me.

I'll give him credit for the laguz gem, but to actually get any use out of it, you need to actually field laguz who can use them. Laguz liek.... volug.

Or a laguz with better part 4, like Ulki or Janaff or Ranulf, or REYSON.

Sothe doesn't take up a unit slot, oh goodie. Except we have more than enough unit slots in 4-P and 4-3 to field whoever we want anyway, and in 4-E he does nothing except sit on the bench because his durability is among the worst in the team by this point. Volug takes up a unit slot, except he's not deadweight because he can actually fight well.

It doesn't stop the fact that he has to compete with others for a slot where Sothe doesn't. Considering the slots forced (Miccy, Sanaki, Sothe, the pegasus lesbos), you have 8 slots. Naesala, Skrimir, other fliers that don't care about exp at this point like Janaff, Ulki and Haar, your heron of choice, there's 2 slots left, and these 2 have to go up against a royal, 3 badass units, Skrimir and a heron. Could throw in another flier for desert transport, and another beorc badass fighting unit to balance out all the laguz.

Sothe's forced, you might as well. But if Sothe's offense is bad, and it's what Volug has, it might be a bit more troublesome getting him somewhere than you make it out to be.

Sothe doing nothing vs Volug taking up someone else's place who he does almost as well (if not just as well) as the unit he replaced. Not to mention that Volug will also be giving out a support.

To the one possible person he could support, while not being as badass as he used to be with the introduction of everyone else badass in the game in this final meeting place that is part 4.

Yeah, "similar" offense, if Sothe actually doubles (30-31 spd at 20/20/1 vs enemies with 26-27 spd), and magically starts with capped str after just promoting, and somehow starts with SS-rank knives when his 2nd tier cap is S-rank, and Volug is only level 20 for some reason instead of 23-24.

26 isn't his cap, though lowering it by 2 isn't painful by any means.

That, and if money is no problem by part 4, would it really hurt to throw a weapon scroll his way, especially since those things are practically littered everywhere throughout the game?

In reality, Sothe loses offense to Volug forever, and durability is, as shown, a rapestomp.

At best, Volug ties while having no ranged option, and is only more durable when transformed.

Let's not get excited over Sothe beyond part 1, okay? His part 3 is like "WHAT IF ZIHARK WAS UNSUPPORTED" (which, frankly, sucks dick, as if SUPPORTED Zihark didn't already get sandbagged to hell and back), and his part 4 is among the worst in the team.

Sothe's not in danger of getting himself killed, and Zihark doesn't have a beastslayer weapon.

His part 4 still has it's uses, and you're forced to use him anyways, so tough.

[Zkirsche]

Ahh, but it is smash's tier list. Since he gets to do what he wants, units can go anywhere. I'm just glad it's paperblade complaining about Int and I ruining the fe9/fe10 tier lists with our dominant attitudes, considering how stubborn in his "facts" smash is. Honestly, still doing the Lehran 3 tiers up on Sanaki thing? And Mia in upper mid? Honestly, I don't care that he overrates Shinon and Zihark and Janaff so strongly. Really. I don't care. But Mia not in High? Even the bottom? Never listens. Well, I suppose he put Shinon in upper mid (though I'm okay with him in high since ORKOing from 2 range allows your units with less than good 1-2 range to simply use 1 range on enemy phase) so he is learning. At least, learning that there is a pretty big difference between Gatrie/Titania and Shinon. Even if I don't like the way in which he separated them.

So let me get this straight, Smash overrates Shinon, but has put him below the place where you would be fine putting him in. Good job avoiding a double standard there.

So, let's see. Are you suggesting that you'll actually be able to use all 8 of Ena's blood tide squares each turn and Sanaki can never use one? Remember, Ena can move. The 4 squares before she moves are probably completely useless for anyone not Sanaki since it is likely that none of them are within 2 range of an enemy. That's already good enough. But if that's not enough for you, Ena moves somewhere and you'll probably get 3 blood tides at best within 2 squares. Sanaki can use the 4th. See, when you don't think of details like this, we start suggesting that you suck with characters you hate.

That is, if she can reach the 4th, or even wants to reach the fourth. In 4-E-1, throwing Sanaki into all the generals seems a bit far fetched as it would be hard to protect her. However, Ena's best used by going that way as that's where the most enemies are, so allies can make the use of her boost against the most, and the toguhest, enemies. Sanaki, on the other hand is best used on the left and right paths which are narrow so they can be blocked off easier but in a natural way, which doesn't slow things down. This is also better because she runs into a lot of mages this way, meaning her higher res comes into good use.

4-E-2 is a 2 turn chapter, so fair deuce.

In 4-E-3, the enemies are spread out so that 4th square might be used. Even if it's not, however, rushing in with Sanaki of all people would be sheer folly.

In 4-E-4, you could easily get away with using all 4 spots, But I'll admit she can be used agaisnt Ashera. Assuming you use her like this:

XAAAX
XAZAX
XAAAX
XUNUX
SEUGX
XSXXX

A - Aura
X - Empty Space
U - Ally Unit
E - Ena
N - Nasir
G - Gareth
Z - Ashera
S - Possible Sanaki Spot

However, at this point it's more a question of would you want to use her? With capped magic and meteor, she only deals single digit damage to Sephiran and doesn't even damage Ashera. So by this point, it doesn't matter anyway.

Edited February 18, 2010 by The Syobon

[Interceptor]

So Sothe's worse than Volug in part 3. You know who's better than Volug in part 3?

Wow, that was a long list.

BK's better than Volug in 3-6, true story. ORKOs everything, impossible for him to die.

Seriously, Sothe is only worse than Jill and Volug in these chapters yet this is sucky? He's actually comparable to Volug in 3-12 because of Volug's transformation issues.

Well, I think that Sothe is worse than Nolan as well, and I'd even entertain Aran, possibly. And in chapters outside of 3-6, I'm also going to say Tauroneo.

But really, the big elephant in the room here is Part 4. This is where the rules of the tier list, which are thankfully posted in the OP, ought to shift things in Sothe's favor. Note: "Comparisons are assumed "unit A + team vs unit B + team"". This means that Sothe's team does not have to deploy Volug in Part 4. This is sort of important point, because Volug is certainly not in the top 10 Endgame units, so Sothe's army is undeniably stronger than Volug's army in Endgame, owing to Sothe's cost-free deployment slot. This matters less for the pre-Endgame Part 4 chapters, naturally, if it even matters at all (I don't recall how restrictive the Hard Mode deployment is).

Is anyone keeping track of all of the arguments that smash is ignoring? It seems like it would be a list of considerable length at this point.

[Zkirsche]

I edited my post when I realised it was a Volug and Sothe comparison so being worse than Volug matters. I thought it was a "Why Sothe should be so high" thing.

[Anouleth]

So let me get this straight, Smash overrates Shinon, but has put him below the place where you would be fine putting him in. Good job avoiding a double standard there.

That is, if she can reach the 4th, or even wants to reach the fourth. In 4-E-1, throwing Sanaki into all the generals seems a bit far fetched as it would be hard to protect her. However, Ena's best used by going that way as that's where the most enemies are, so allies can make the use of her boost against the most, and the toguhest, enemies. Sanaki, on the other hand is best used on the left and right paths which are narrow so they can be blocked off easier but in a natural way, which doesn't slow things down. This is also better because she runs into a lot of mages this way, meaning her higher res comes into good use.

4-E-2 is a 2 turn chapter, so fair deuce.

In 4-E-3, the enemies are spread out so that 4th square might be used. Even if it's not, however, rushing in with Sanaki of all people would be sheer folly.

In 4-E-4, you could easily get away with using all 4 spots, But I'll admit she can be used agaisnt Ashera. Assuming you use her like this:

XAAAX
XAZAX
XAAAX
XUNUX
SEUGX
XSXXX

A - Aura
X - Empty Space
U - Ally Unit
E - Ena
N - Nasir
G - Gareth
Z - Ashera
S - Possible Sanaki Spot

However, at this point it's more a question of would you want to use her? With capped magic and meteor, she only deals single digit damage to Sephiran and doesn't even damage Ashera. So by this point, it doesn't matter anyway.

The benefit of Ena is more about ensuring Sanaki doubles the 4-E-3 Dragons. In theory, Sanaki could double Spirits with both Blood Tides and White Pool, but that's horribly impractical and not likely to happen. And even with Ena, Sanaki won't double Generals. The best she can do is weaken them. (Which is still useful - She can team up with some other crappy forced unit, like Micaiah or Sothe, and low-str characters like Zihark or Nephenee aren't 1-rounding the Generals reliably. Even a 20/20/10 Nolan needs a Hammer.)

[RNG Princess]

Micaiah is crappy? I always had the impression that she is amazing.

[Venusaur]

Micaiah is crappy? I always had the impression that she is amazing.

Micaiah's SPD growth and cap is very bad, along with her durability. This relegating her to Thani nuking or healbotting.

[Colonel M]

I have no idea how you think Meg >>>>> Astrid. Again, could I please have a little clarity on this one? Even though they both suck, what is Meg doing that is so much better than Astrid?

I kind of question Volug's Part IV. In my run with Normal Mode... he was okay. Nothing spectacular (well neither was Sothe), but okay. Sothe, while not being the greatest unit alive, doesn't have a unit that can kick him out of his spot until Nasir and Gareth join. Before that, he at least picks up a lot of the "good" items in the desert (this way you can make more ridiculous forges or bring another Laguz that isn't Formshiftable or use it on Raisin). In 4-E, he's probably a bit of a liability, but at least he can try to fight them off with Bane. It's not reliable, but to be honest I wouldn't even consider Volug with an ounce of thought in my Endgame team.

I'm just saying "don't handwave everything". I guess I should play HM a little more and I understand Sothe isn't a great combat unit, but I think he's better than what you give him credit for.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Colonel M

[Interceptor]

- Comparisons are assumed "unit A + team vs unit B + team"

- Net utility (as opposed to gross utility), e.g. not existing > sucking

- Utility is also based on "what would happen if this unit didn't exist?"

When did this additional rule listed here get ninja'ed in, and how are you even measuring it? The new rule conflicts with the ones immediately above it.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

It also helps my point, because Sothe can't not exist.

[-Cynthia-]

When did this additional rule listed here get ninja'ed in, and how are you even measuring it? The new rule conflicts with the ones immediately above it.

Indeed. It now makes Edward's tier position very questionable, since 1-P now takes us an additonal like 10-15 turns or something ridiculous like that, various other characters benefit from this as well.

I am a little questionable about smash's views on non-Formshift laguz. I haven't really seen any acknoledgement of Volug's transform issues, and Mordecai/Ulki/Janaff are relatively high as well. If the herons are rewarded for increasing our player phase so much (as well as Shinon), the various laguz taking multiple player phases in a map to transform should be penalized as well.

[Interceptor]

Indeed. It now makes Edward's tier position very questionable, since 1-P now takes us an additonal like 10-15 turns or something ridiculous like that, various other characters benefit from this as well.

No kidding. With the stipulation that Eddie doesn't exist in his opponent's army, there is a huge swath of units that would never be able to make up the turn count deficit. Taken even against his crummy showing afterwards, Eddie's performance in 1-P through 1-2 puts him squarely ahead of the never-there units in Lower Mid and below.

[nflchamp]

I have no idea how you think Meg >>>>> Astrid. Again, could I please have a little clarity on this one? Even though they both suck, what is Meg doing that is so much better than Astrid?

I kind of question Volug's Part IV. In my run with Normal Mode... he was okay. Nothing spectacular (well neither was Sothe), but okay. Sothe, while not being the greatest unit alive, doesn't have a unit that can kick him out of his spot until Nasir and Gareth join. Before that, he at least picks up a lot of the "good" items in the desert (this way you can make more ridiculous forges or bring another Laguz that isn't Formshiftable or use it on Raisin). In 4-E, he's probably a bit of a liability, but at least he can try to fight them off with Bane. It's not reliable, but to be honest I wouldn't even consider Volug with an ounce of thought in my Endgame team.

I'm just saying "don't handwave everything". I guess I should play HM a little more and I understand Sothe isn't a great combat unit, but I think he's better than what you give him credit for.

Volug's Part IV will probably look better in HM. You won't have as many units that are rocking, but he'll hardly be different because EXP differences don't really affect him a lot anyways. It shifts his okay to good.

[Anouleth]

Micaiah is crappy? I always had the impression that she is amazing.

Not amazing. Smash's list has her in High, but Smash's High is everyone else's Upper Mid. (He likes to give his highest and lowest tiers silly names. Which is probably the main reason he doesn't want to move down Meg, because then he wouldn't be able to call Bottom Unholy Trinity.)

And I was referring to Mickey in 4-E. While she's a good healer, her combat is basically Sanaki without Thunder magic, which isn't great. What's important is that if on any given turn, she's not doing something, she and Sanaki can kill a General. Which is helpful.

[Narga_Rocks]

So let me get this straight, Smash overrates Shinon, but has put him below the place where you would be fine putting him in. Good job avoiding a double standard there.

Shinon is higher than Mia. I suppose that is only a minor overrate, but it is overrating him nevertheless. As for how me thinking he should go up a tier doesn't negate Shinon being overrated? It's a relative thing compared to an absolute thing. Shinon really should be in the second highest tier. That's the absolute factor. Shinon should be under Mia. That's the relative thing. I suppose I should have said that Shinon is both underrated and overrated at the same time, but whatever.

That is, if she can reach the 4th, or even wants to reach the fourth. In 4-E-1, throwing Sanaki into all the generals seems a bit far fetched as it would be hard to protect her. However, Ena's best used by going that way as that's where the most enemies are, so allies can make the use of her boost against the most, and the toguhest, enemies. Sanaki, on the other hand is best used on the left and right paths which are narrow so they can be blocked off easier but in a natural way, which doesn't slow things down. This is also better because she runs into a lot of mages this way, meaning her higher res comes into good use.

4-E-2 is a 2 turn chapter, so fair deuce.

In 4-E-3, the enemies are spread out so that 4th square might be used. Even if it's not, however, rushing in with Sanaki of all people would be sheer folly.

In 4-E-4, you could easily get away with using all 4 spots, But I'll admit she can be used agaisnt Ashera. Assuming you use her like this:

XAAAX
XAZAX
XAAAX
XUNUX
SEUGX
XSXXX

A - Aura
X - Empty Space
U - Ally Unit
E - Ena
N - Nasir
G - Gareth
Z - Ashera
S - Possible Sanaki Spot

However, at this point it's more a question of would you want to use her? With capped magic and meteor, she only deals single digit damage to Sephiran and doesn't even damage Ashera. So by this point, it doesn't matter anyway.

Gee, wanna read my post and his post again? The seige tome stuff immediately follows the 4-E-3 stuff in his post. Hence, I'm suggesting how to make use of blood tide in 4-E-3.

And I must ask, why did you focus on the side point? The 4th square isn't really relevant when you consider that there are 4 squares before Ena moves that probably aren't taken. The point about the 4th square after Ena moves was in case Smash was going to be thick-headed about the fact there are blood tide squares before Ena moves. How do you miss the main point? She's using a seige tome and attempting to use Ena to double (which works with Purge depending on Sanaki's level). She's not even going to meet any dragons since the dragons that used to be around Ena's starting position should be dead. Then Ena moves forward and lets the physical fighters blood tide on any dragons in range. What's complicated about that? Why bother countering the minor point about after Ena moves while ignoring the options before Ena moves?

[Progenitus]

I will move snacky above oliver (prob not above bastian, since he is useful in 4-5).

Indeed. It now makes Edward's tier position very questionable, since 1-P now takes us an additonal like 10-15 turns or something ridiculous like that, various other characters benefit from this as well.

It goes back to one of my old posts about being good because you're forced with few other fighters available, rather than being good because you're heads and shoulders above the rest of the cast.

reposting old posts...

Admittedly this hinges on what kind of logic/standards you use when tiering units.

The problem with Edward, Geof/Kieran, etc., is that they're good... when they're not only forced, BUT your competition is very, very small. This means you're fielding them not because they're good and better than your other options, but because you have to and you have no other options at all.

For example, suppose we have Ike in the prologue for FE9. He's the only unit available. If Ike did not exist, or we did not use Ike, we could obviously never beat the game. Does that make Ike best unit?

Or another example, Ike to kill Ashera. He's the only one who can do it. Does that make him the best unit in the game?

In these cases, we give less weight (or sometimes ignore) to storyline/forced events. That's how I view Edward, Goef/Kieran, etc, and why I give less weight than a normal chapter for them. In Edward's case it's almost negligible since we only have 3 units to begin with. Geof/Kieran are given a little more weight since there are more units on the team, although I still typically use everyone to varying degrees except Astrid anyway due to lack of manpower. I typically consider something to be a storyline/forced event until we can actually cut people from the team, or we can start to feed or funnel kills to the units we want to use. Or in other words, we actually have enough units available to make active choices in terms of who we want to use and who to drop.

I am a little questionable about smash's views on non-Formshift laguz. I haven't really seen any acknoledgement of Volug's transform issues, and Mordecai/Ulki/Janaff are relatively high as well. If the herons are rewarded for increasing our player phase so much (as well as Shinon), the various laguz taking multiple player phases in a map to transform should be penalized as well.

The herons and shinon are ranked highly despite terrible enemy phases (although shinon can emergencytank, for what it's worth) because their player phases bring unique things to the table (herons are obv, shinon brings reliable 1RKOing in a game where 1RKOing is fairly rare, and good affinity for what it's worth) to make up for their enemy phases.

Enemy phase otherwise still generally carries more weight than player phase (you'll genearlly face more attacks than on player phase, and it's also much harder to control which unit gets attacked by what enemy). Which is where laguz like Volug/Janaff/etc. shine, raping everything silly while still not dying.

[Colonel M]

What's up with the gap between Janaff and Ulki? Is it because Ulki needs the extra level and / or Energy Drop? I don't think they're that different to give a gap between the two, let alone Ulki < Gatrie < Janaff seems a little weird.

[Progenitus]

Yeah, energy drop mostly.

Don't underestimate the att gap between them. From my ranking topic...

3-7. Janaff one-rounds halbs and warriors and snipers while Ulki has issues.

3-8. Janaff has issues one-rounding halbs now. Ulki has issues 2-rounding generals

3-10. The enemies are about the same as 3-8 enemies, except now there are paladins (Janaff one rounds and Ulki doesn't) and dragonmasters (neither one-round).

3-11. There are a lot of paladins in this chapter. Janaff one rounds a bunch and Ulki can't one round anything. Janaff starts running into issues one-rounding snipers and warriors (though they're rare in this chapter). Ulki has an even harder time 4HKOing generals, and now he's borderline on 2HKOing SMs.

3-E. Similar to 3-11.

I'm assuming we're sending the hawks with Micaiah because of the desert (as awesome as the 4-5 base convo is).

4-P. Ulki has issues 3HKOing most anything, which means simply giving him adept may not even be enough. Janaff isn't one rounding, though he 3HKOs non-generals with ease. The hawks are probably getting S-strike sometime late during this chapter.

4-3. Even with S-Strike, Janaff has issues 2HKOing halbs and warriors, while Ulki upgrades to 3HKO.

4-E-1. General heaven. They're so tanky Janaff has issues 3HKOing, but on the other side Ulki has issues 4HKOing. Note that if Janaff can't 3HKO, his offense is not that much better (adept won't let him one round), since after 2 rounds of attack you're bound to have a mastery go off once.

4-E-2. Janaff isn't 2HKOing, but Ulki might have issues 3HKOing. It's a fairly small chapter though (~30 enemies), and you don't even need to kill them all.

4-E-3. wtf dragons. Something like 76 HP/36 def for red dragons and 71-72 HP/22 or 24 def. The red dragons are so tanky that while Janaff requires fewer hits to kill them (like, Janaff ~6HKOs, 5 if he has SS-strike, while Ulki ~10HKOs, 6HKos with SS-strike), they'll probably activate their mastery before the dragon even gets to half HP at which point they both kill. Janaff 3HKOs white dragons while Ulki might not (unless they have SS-strike, at which point they both 3HKO).

4-E-4. Neither have issues 2HKOing the spirits, although because they lack 2-range they're not very good here anyway.

4-E-5. This is like the only time Janaff can't double, since the auras are too fast for him. However, because the hawks have canto, they can easily use the dragons' tide skills and then move off to let someone else use it, which means Janaff can go to Nasir while Ulki goes to a red dragon and they'll be doing similar damage. And then Ashera, but neither are that stellar against her. It's pretty short anyway.

Now would be a good time to address masteries. In all of part 3 they are both getting 1 exp for doing anything. In 4-P, because the enemies are about level 6, that means Ulki gets ~5 exp a kill while Janaff gets ~2, which means that Ulki might gain a level and hit level 29 while Janaff will be stuck at about 70 exp or something. And then in 4-3 they get about 10 exp a kill, which means that Janaff doesn't really get his mastery much earlier than Ulki. Although with BEXP factored in Janaff does get it a bit faster, but not by a lot.

However, the rest of the offense does matter. Janaff doesn't really one-round very often without a crit or adept or something similar, but he's generally requiring one less hit to kill than Ulki, which makes a pretty big difference, be it Janaff being able to kill with an adept and Ulki not, or just weakening foes enough so that other units have an easier time killing. It's also worth noting that Janaff can usually turn his 3HKO into a 2HKO if we give him an energy drop while giving one to Ulki just puts his att at the same level as Janaff's without one, and Ulki doesn't do much better with adept than Janaff does.

compare with the durability...

Base Ulki untransformed with no supports has similar avoid to several beorcs do with an earth support.

Yes. I am not kidding. 18 spd/25 lck gives him 81 avoid before stars. Boyd with A Earth does not match this until roughly 20/15.

But that's enough of fun facts. Time to get to business.

We all know Janaff is pretty durable himself. The guy transformed has 57 HP, 24 def, 16 res, and 98 avoid before any stars, PLUS has a purely defensive affinity. He could go into 4-E at base level with no supports and have comparable durability to Titania. Still, there are situations where Ulki can apply his durability lead (for comparison, Ulki has 59 HP, 22 def, 20 res, 117 avoid).

The big one is when a crossbow is nearby. They get pretty ridiculous. Already in 3-7 the crossbow warriors have 155 hit, which means even after stars Janaff is facing 42 displayed hit while Ulki faces 23 displayed. Of course at the moment they both get OHKO'd, so I don't really plan on leveraging Ulki's avoid advantage here, but down the line when the hawks can avoid the OHKO (supports, plus they eventually level up) will it become apparent.

However, later on even snipers using regular weapons have high hit, especially if the boss in the chapter has stars, as well as 4-P and 4-3 where Micaiah has none. A sniper in 3-11 has 160 hit/33 att with a steel bow, which means it has 47 displayed hit on Janaff at 29 damage and 28 hit on Ulki at 31 damage (before supports, where Janaff will improve slightly since his affinity boosts avoid, but still a lot worse than Ulki). Usually bow enemies don't come in groups, but even just 1 only needs to be around for Janaff to watch his step. If one sniper hits him, all the enemies with high hit suddenly look kinda threatening.

Even wind sages are annoying. 3-11 elwind sages have 153 hit with 30 att (so 42 after the bonus), which is 40 hit vs Janaff and 26 damage while 21 hit vs Ulki and 22 damage. Granted these enemies are rare, but when you run into one they'll hurt the hawks almost as much as a bow.

Of course Janaff isn't that worried about dying even after some steel bow hits him (you'll still need a bunch of enemies around to kill him off), but you'll waste more time healing him than Ulki, which matters because the laguz have to also worry about keeping their gauge up. Even if they don't get attacked by bows, Janaff will get hit several times, so you'll eventually want to heal him, which is an advantage for Ulki.

I see the durability being a noticeable advantage in chapters where the boss has multiple authority stars or when you have none. This would make 3-11, 4-P, 4-3, and 4-E-3 (maybe 3-10, since the boss has 1 star). This hurts Janaff's avoid, and his lategame HP/def is not THAT awesome when you consider that laguz don't want to be wasting their time healing.

Another small advantage the durability poses is that, for part 3, Ulki is less worried about prematurely untransforming. He's less likely to get doubled than Janaff when they're untransformed, plus their durability is no longer overkill. Of course when untransformed their offense goes down the ****ter so you'd want to avoid them untransforming anyway, but it is a bit of a failsafe for Ulki.

Overall, Janaff is probably better, since his offense advantage applies against more enemies (pretty much everything except sages/swordmasters) than Ulki's durability advantage (pretty much just when a bow enemy is nearby or in chapters where the enemy has authority stars). However, they are both very good, and since scores are rounded to the nearest 0.5, they both end up getting the same score anyway.

[Interceptor]

It goes back to one of my old posts about being good because you're forced with few other fighters available, rather than being good because you're heads and shoulders above the rest of the cast.

This is too non-specific, and does not resolve the contradiction you created in your rules. Until you codify it in a logical guideline rather than describing it in terms of what you "consider" something, your rule that you added with zero fanfare is nothing but a "because fuck you" button. The argument against Seize in the Vykan's FAQ is slightly more useful than what you've posted.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Interceptor

[Interceptor]

I will move snacky above oliver (prob not above bastian, since he is useful in 4-5).

Bastian useful in 4-5? Chapter 4-5 is a Boss Kill map, meaning that "Finish as fast as possible while consuming a minimum amount of resources" implies that the objective in this chapter is to kill Izuka immediately. Since Tibarn has a 100% chance to ORKO Izuka, and the MV and flying to actually get to him before he can do anything about it, the only wrinkle here is killing one of the feral blockers first so that Tibarn can get in. Bastian can participate in this, you'd have to do something like give him Meteor/Blizzard for a ranged snipe. Problem is, with his 24 AS you have to first pray that a 20 AS Tiger spawns, otherwise there is nothing that Bastian can ORKO and he needs someone else to finish it off (such as Elincihax).

This is the extent of his ability to contribute. If you grind your way through 4-5, not only are you abandoning one of the "rules", but now it's self-improvement (which he can assist with, it's true). Sanaki's chapters, by contrast, are both Routs, meaning that even the odd enemy she OHKO Flares or finishes off or sets up for another unit to kill is contributing to the goal of the chapter. This is especially true in the desert chapter, where no one superman unit can be everywhere that needs offense, so she can team up with a couple of scrubs and go to town.

Endgame, as with Oliver, is stacked in favor of Sanaki. She has ways to contribute for free, but Bastian is bumping out any number of other units that are better than he is.

So keep going, smash, Sanaki's not done yet, especially once you tap the "not existing > sucking" rule.

[Anouleth]

Endgame, as with Oliver, is stacked in favor of Sanaki. She has ways to contribute for free, but Bastian is bumping out any number of other units that are better than he is.

So keep going, smash, Sanaki's not done yet, especially once you tap the "not existing > sucking" rule.

Actually, I don't know if Bastian is necessarily bumping out a better unit. From the healers, I'd say that Elincia and Calill are better than him in Endgame, but Bastian vs any Bishop or any Archsage is fairly close. Soren needs to be something like level 20/20/16 to beat Bastian by doubling Generals, Ilyana never beats him because she still can't 1-round White Dragons, Tormod is not even worth considering, and the Bishops can't use Thunder magic and are probably horribly underlevelled. A case could be made for Mist because she can bless the Wyrmslayer, but it's only applicable to Dheginsea. We're not even that likely to be using them in the first place.

So if you're not using Elincia or Calill, Bastian would be a perfectly respectable choice as a backup healer.

As for Smash's new corollary about ignoring certain chapters, does this mean Haar doesn't get credit for 2-P? That Lethe doesn't get credit for 2-2? That would explain why you have her below Oliver, since otherwise, her tiny amount of positive utility in that chapter >>> his negative utility.

I would also say that's grounds to put Edward over Leonardo. If being good in those forced chapters is worthless, surely being bad in those chapters is worthless too, so the fact that Edward is beating out Leonardo when both are trained should put him above Leo. You could make a similiar case for Tanith>Leonardo, since we're disregarding his earlygame.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Anouleth

[Interceptor]

Actually, I don't know if Bastian is necessarily bumping out a better unit. [...] So if you're not using Elincia or Calill, Bastian would be a perfectly respectable choice as a backup healer.

The point is, Sanaki's team does not have to deploy Bastian: her team can deploy Elincia, or any other unit that's better than he is. It does not even need to be a healer (Micaiah is your healer), it can be a combatant. Elincia is a RNG-proof addition to the team, by the way, she does not need to be trained (such as Calill would) in order to be used for healing.

[Colonel M]

To be honest, I'd sooner put Elincia in my team than Bastian. Bastian requires two levels just so he isn't doubled by Generals. That's pathetic. Not to mention that Elicnia can still do combat on the side thanks to Swords (and she has tolerable Res for the latest parts of the map).

[Progenitus]

This is too non-specific, and does not resolve the contradiction you created in your rules. Until you codify it in a logical guideline rather than describing it in terms of what you "consider" something, your rule that you added with zero fanfare is nothing but a "because fuck you" button. The argument against Seize in the Vykan's FAQ is slightly more useful than what you've posted.

cool story bro

As for Smash's new corollary about ignoring certain chapters, does this mean Haar doesn't get credit for 2-P? That Lethe doesn't get credit for 2-2? That would explain why you have her below Oliver, since otherwise, her tiny amount of positive utility in that chapter >>> his negative utility.

I'm not necessarily ignoring their credit completely, but I do give it less weight.

I would also say that's grounds to put Edward over Leonardo. If being good in those forced chapters is worthless, surely being bad in those chapters is worthless too, so the fact that Edward is beating out Leonardo when both are trained should put him above Leo. You could make a similiar case for Tanith>Leonardo, since we're disregarding his earlygame.

The only way Edward would beat Leo is if we completely ignored every single DB chapter other than 1-P and maybe 1-1 and 1-2, since those are the onyl DB chapters that Edward beats Leo.

To be honest, I'd sooner put Elincia in my team than Bastian. Bastian requires two levels just so he isn't doubled by Generals. That's pathetic. Not to mention that Elicnia can still do combat on the side thanks to Swords (and she has tolerable Res for the latest parts of the map).

Generals don't have 29 AS.

Elincia's combat is terrible unless we babied her and threw paragon on her.

If we need a staff user, Bastian's better. He can't use fortify, but he has liek 15 more mag anyway.

[General Spoon]

The only way Edward would beat Leo is if we completely ignored every single DB chapter other than 1-P and maybe 1-1 and 1-2, since those are the onyl DB chapters that Edward beats Leo.

What? You aren't even going to post facts and logic and reasoning with this?

Edited February 19, 2010 by General Spoon