tier list

[Progenitus]

Since the one here is currently dead...

also, at the request of narga, the objectives and rules of this tier list...

- Hard Mode

- Finish as fast as possible while consuming a minimum amount of resources

- In a given comparison, units are assumed to get equal amounts of resources (again, the less you need to be good, the better)

- Units are based on whose absence hurts the team the most. For example, in a Haar vs Ike comparison, the winner is which team becomes weaker when the unit is not used.

- WRT how units are rated...

1) Units are used as efficiently as possible and won't be used if they won't generate any efficiency. For example, Sothe isn't used in part 4 (as a combat unit anyway) for he won't generate any efficiency.

2) If the following two exceptions are both fulfilled, units are based on "whose absence hurts the team the least."

Exception 1: The unit cannot be dropped at a given point in the game, while having accumulated positive utility when used as a full-time unit.

Exception 2: The unit's overall utility throughout the game is negative.

This topic has more information...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19265&pid=878013&st=0entry878013

Kamina

Haar

Ike

Reyson

Volug

Top

Titania

Janaff

Rafiel

Zihark

Nolan

Ulki

Gatrie

Sothe

Leanne

Nailah

High

Shinon

Mordecai

Mia

Tibarn

Oscar

Micaiah

Aran

Laura

Ranulf

Upper Mid

Tauroneo

Naesala

Caineghis

Giffca

Skrimir

Elincia

Jill

Nephenee

Mist

Rhys

Muarim

Boyd

Brom

Heather

Nasir

Lower Mid

Lehran

Tormod

Nealuchi

Geoffrey

Kieran

Vika

Soren

Volke

Stefan

Lucia

Marcia

Calill

Danved

Makalov

Leonardo

Low

Tanith

Edward

Ena

Gareth

Kurthnaga

Ilyana

Rolf

Sigrun

Sanaki

Bastian

Oliver

Bottom

Renning

Kyza

Lethe

Pelleas

Meg

Unholy Trinity

Lyre

Astrid

Fiona

Edited March 21, 2010 by Andrew W.K.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Lets see: Things I would consider -

Sanaki to low

Marcia > Lucia

Kurth > Gareth

Meg < Astrid

Other than that, no complaints from me.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Florete]

Wow, I didn't even see this before bumping the other one. Oh well. Lyre is still > Astrid for some strange reason, and Lehran nearly 3 tiers higher than Sanaki, which was questioned in length but smash never gave a proper argument for.

[Bryan]

Wow, I didn't even see this before bumping the other one. Oh well. Lyre is still > Astrid for some strange reason, and Lehran nearly 3 tiers higher than Sanaki, which was questioned in length but smash never gave a proper argument for.

Okay, Sanaki sucks, but Lehran is around for one chapter, how is he three tiers higher than her in a game where all Magic users suck??

Edited February 15, 2010 by Bryan

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, Sanaki sucks, but Lehran is around for one chapter, how is he three tiers higher than her in a game where all Magic users suck??

Ahh, but it is smash's tier list. Since he gets to do what he wants, units can go anywhere. I'm just glad it's paperblade complaining about Int and I ruining the fe9/fe10 tier lists with our dominant attitudes, considering how stubborn in his "facts" smash is. Honestly, still doing the Lehran 3 tiers up on Sanaki thing? And Mia in upper mid? Honestly, I don't care that he overrates Shinon and Zihark and Janaff so strongly. Really. I don't care. But Mia not in High? Even the bottom? Never listens. Well, I suppose he put Shinon in upper mid (though I'm okay with him in high since ORKOing from 2 range allows your units with less than good 1-2 range to simply use 1 range on enemy phase) so he is learning. At least, learning that there is a pretty big difference between Gatrie/Titania and Shinon. Even if I don't like the way in which he separated them.

The huge difference between Oscar/Aran and Neph? Smash being smash. Again, while it's stupid and Jill/Neph should be upper mid, you get used to things with smash. Elincia so far down? Smash. While there are so many things that are nuts here, it is smash's tier list. He can keep his faves above their superiors, I'm just annoyed he can't even put units in the right tiers.

[Florete]

And Mia in upper mid? Honestly, I don't care that he overrates Shinon and Zihark and Janaff so strongly. Really. I don't care. But Mia not in High? Even the bottom? Never listens. Well, I suppose he put Shinon in upper mid (though I'm okay with him in high since ORKOing from 2 range allows your units with less than good 1-2 range to simply use 1 range on enemy phase) so he is learning. At least, learning that there is a pretty big difference between Gatrie/Titania and Shinon. Even if I don't like the way in which he separated them.

He's actually got Mia in High, but because of how he named his tiers it's practically equivalent to Upper Mid on the other one.

[Narga_Rocks]

He's actually got Mia in High, but because of how he named his tiers it's practically equivalent to Upper Mid on the other one.

Yeah, I counted top, high, upper mid, rather than whatever, top, high, upper mid. So of course Jill, Elincia, Aran are in fact in upper mid, and Mia is in fact in high. Problem, though, is that means that Aran and Oscar are in High, which is retarded, and there are that many units in top? Gah. Anyway, renaming his tiers in a normal way, my points stand.

To the mods:

There are two tier lists allegedly set up for efficiency. Please lock the new one like you did on fe7 and Crimson's, otherwise it's a double standard. Now, if smash would be kind enough to set out his rules like all units get equal resources and no one is assumed to get anything special and forges are super expensive so only weak things with like +3 mt and +15 hit and no more than +6 crit are allowed to be made, then I'd retract my request to lock it since his list would then be an obviously different list. With 2 lists with completely different rules, it is in no way a double standard to keep this one open.

Oh, smash, I'd accept simply adding "Communist" to the title. So, "Communist Tier List". If you do that, I'd also be happy.

[Progenitus]

Wow, I didn't even see this before bumping the other one.

You keep telling yourself that.

Okay, Sanaki sucks, but Lehran is around for one chapter, how is he three tiers higher than her in a game where all Magic users suck??

Lehran can actually do something in the chapter he's in.

Sanaki just sucks and fails in every chapter.

Lets see: Things I would consider -

Sanaki to low

Marcia > Lucia

Kurth > Gareth

Meg < Astrid

Other than that, no complaints from me.

Marcia doesn't double without favoritism, and has terrible str anyway. Lucia at least has one chapter of being good (albeit it's a short chapter).

Gareth's +5 str/skl is generally more useful than Kurth's +5 def/res, since this is 4-E land where offense is generally a bigger concern than durability (e.g. we have +10 def tiles and such for durability, but nothing like that for offense. In addition, if the enemy ends up on those uber tiles, you need more offense to take them down).

Meg actually has some semblance of potential, Astrid doesn't. And if you want to bring up "but astrid can potshot!", meg can do stuff like shove in 1-4, block ledges in 3-13, etc.

Oh, smash, I'd accept simply adding "Communist" to the title. So, "Communist Tier List". If you do that, I'd also be happy.

I'll rename this topic to "Communist Tier List" if Fox renames his topic to "Int/Narga circlejerk".

[Narga_Rocks]

You keep telling yourself that.

Nice. Call her a liar.

Sanaki just sucks and fails in every chapter.

It's not Sanaki's fault that you are horrible at using her.

I'll rename this topic to "Communist Tier List" if Fox renames his topic to "Int/Narga circlejerk".

I'll ask you what I asked Paperblade. Show me where Fox dropped Reyson and Sothe just because we want her to. Interceptor wants Sothe to drop further than I do, and Resyon I'm uncertain of, so it's mostly Int, but still. And these are units for which Interceptor isn't even the only one. You clearly want Haar > Reyson. Int wants Ike and Haar > Reyson. For all I know Int may want Reyson in high, though he's never said quite where he should drop to, just that RF overrates him. And Sothe? He probably wants Nailah above him, though I'm not sure where he wants Sothe specifically since he's never said. It's entirely possible he's happy with Sothe > Nailah. However, he did once say that Sothe is lucky to be in high, so that's a pretty clear statement against Sothe's current position. So yeah, you are, as usual, delusional. But hey, it's unlikely this will get through your RDF anyway, so whatever. Have fun in your little world, smash.

Oh, forgot to add to my list of people that want Reyson to drop.

Colonel M.

I am certain there are many more, but I'm not sure on any of them.

Oh, Ether once wanted Mia > Sothe, so that's another person wanting Sothe to drop. Grandjackel actually once wanted Sothe to rise to top, so he may be happy with Sothe's current location. You?

Sothe <

Titania

Janaff

Rafiel

Zihark

Nolan

Ulki

Gatrie

So you would clearly want Sothe to drop a fair number of positions. Now, if Interceptor was happy with where Sothe and Reyson currently are, you could say she's siding with us against them. Unfortunately...

Edited February 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

*Cough*.

To clarify I want Haar > Ike > Raisin Brand. =/

[Narga_Rocks]

*Cough*.

To clarify I want Haar > Ike > Raisin Brand. =/

I knew you wanted Reyson to drop. Just not quite how far.

As for Ike and Haar, I want Ike > Haar, but I'm not sure what Interceptor wants. Most of his comparisons between Reyson and other units involved Haar rather than Ike, so read into that what you will.

[Bryan]

I forgot this was Smash we were dealing with...

[CATS]

There are two tier lists allegedly set up for efficiency. Please lock the new one like you did on fe7 and Crimson's, otherwise it's a double standard.

Whoever made the other one assuming that they have more of a right to "run" the tier list or whatever is also blatantly elitist.

[Progenitus]

*Cough*.

To clarify I want Haar > Ike > Raisin Brand. =/

Well, I don't really care about who's better between ike and reyson (though Haar should be at the top). I'd just move Ike over Reyson, but then someone is bound to say that Reyson > Ike and then I'd feel like switching them again =/

[Florete]

I'll ask you what I asked Paperblade. Show me where Fox dropped Reyson and Sothe just because we want her to. Interceptor wants Sothe to drop further than I do, and Resyon I'm uncertain of, so it's mostly Int, but still. And these are units for which Interceptor isn't even the only one. You clearly want Haar > Reyson. Int wants Ike and Haar > Reyson. For all I know Int may want Reyson in high, though he's never said quite where he should drop to, just that RF overrates him. And Sothe? He probably wants Nailah above him, though I'm not sure where he wants Sothe specifically since he's never said. It's entirely possible he's happy with Sothe > Nailah. However, he did once say that Sothe is lucky to be in high, so that's a pretty clear statement against Sothe's current position. So yeah, you are, as usual, delusional. But hey, it's unlikely this will get through your RDF anyway, so whatever. Have fun in your little world, smash.

And then Vykan also wanted Reyson > Ike (T). You can't please everyone. Plus, Interceptor has admitted to extreme Sothe hatred, which occasionally makes it difficult to take his arguments against the guy seriously.

[Colonel M]

Well, I don't really care about who's better between ike and reyson (though Haar should be at the top). I'd just move Ike over Reyson, but then someone is bound to say that Reyson > Ike and then I'd feel like switching them again =/

Herons and Dancers have that stupid problem of "where do I place this unit?" *Shrugs*.

[Florete]

Lehran can actually do something in the chapter he's in.

Sanaki just sucks and fails in every chapter.

Narrow-minded arguments are your specialty. Just admit that you failed to counter our arguments when we made them at GameFAQs. It's like you thought moving her over Pelleas would be good enough, but even if she's not > Lehran (she should be), she at least needs to be in the same tier. Your reasoning for Lehran being so high in the first place is just dumb. Please tell me how Ena providing Blood Tide for 5 maps is a full tier worse than Lehran's contributions for 3 turns.

[Narga_Rocks]

I forgot this was Smash we were dealing with...

There you go.

Whoever made the other one assuming that they have more of a right to "run" the tier list or whatever is also blatantly elitist.

I wasn't around way back then, but from what I've seen from Ninji's posts, I thought they discussed who would run it way back when. Maybe I read into those posts incorrectly, though. Still, the mods locked the new list in favour of the pre-existing list. Whether or not the mods themselves were being elitist is actually not relevant to my point about the potential "double standard" involved. Only thing that might make things different in this case is just how very long ago the last post was in the old tier list. But really, while that is a difference it still seems more consistent to keep the old one, given how multiple members of their forum argued over and over on it to arrive where it is and Smash's list is so incredibly different that if they allow just one list it makes more sense to go with the one on which clearly more people agree.

And then Vykan also wanted Reyson > Ike (T). You can't please everyone. Plus, Interceptor has admitted to extreme Sothe hatred, which occasionally makes it difficult to take his arguments against the guy seriously.

Yeah, I forgot about that topic. You have a point there. Hey, if Vykan says Reyson > Ike(T), then clearly Reyson > Ike. And hey, RFoF is keeping it. Wait a minute. Does that mean she's a Vykan fangirl now, smash? Tell me, please, oh King of Double Standards.

[CATS]

# of people that agree on something has no relevance to its actual accuracy, not in a case like this one where's it's like what, 6-8 people maybe against 2 or 3?

I realize that it's still a double standard if they leave this open. Just commenting that it's elitist to have a certain person "control" the list either way.

[Inui]

so liek i shur hoep 2 c debaet insted of smash bein flaymd lololol

:(

[RNG Princess]

Astrid and Fiona give useful and sellable skills > Lyre or Meg. Also Meg/Fio/Astrid at least deal some damage in their recruiting chapter.

Lehran takes a lot of effort to be playable for one chapter = phail.

Lucia is great for one chapter but Nephenee/Brom/Mordecai put the exp to better use.

Marcia is one of the superior Crimean knights saving you houses in that one chapter.

Elincia/Micaiah inferior to Oscar? He's alright as a fighter but so are they and they can heal themselves and the team.

[Narga_Rocks]

# of people that agree on something has no relevance to its actual accuracy, not in a case like this one where's it's like what, 6-8 people maybe against 2 or 3?

Hey, he gave rules. I retract any of my requests to lock this tier list. In fact, I think it is perfectly fine to have both exist together. Now maybe Paperblade will get to participate too. It will be interesting to see if the two of them disagree on any positions. Also, it's too bad Vykan has lost interest in tier debates. I'm sure he disagrees with enough on the list to make things interesting. Even if it's only 2 or 3 things.

I realize that it's still a double standard if they leave this open. Just commenting that it's elitist to have a certain person "control" the list either way.

I suppose if you think it could work to have multiple people in control. I think it would be chaos. I suppose that doesn't technically say anything about whether or not the current system is elitist, so I'll just say that I prefer the current system of Benign Dictatorships over the alternate system of Chaos.

edit: of course, this brings up the problem with Nephenee's position. Since Haar and Titania now can't get speedwings and Gatrie can't auto-crown whenever he wants, you have a severe lack of doubling units in HM and Neph will fairly easily have the speed to double. That's 3-2 until 3-7 where Neph and Mia and Ike and Shinon are like the only things doubling much (aside from the paladins in 3-2 that don't really matter anymore since finishing as fast as possible limits the utility Oscar and others would gain from being able to double like 90% of the map) and so it's rather useful the damage she causes even without ORKOing. Also her durability is closer to Mia's now since Mia at best might get Shinon (but Shinon has other sources of +mt) and otherwise is just getting either +def or +avo (it seems simple enough to assume she gets one of thunder/water/light/wind/dark) but not both so Neph with whatever she supports will get pretty close to Mia's avo and while her offence is inferior her concrete durability is very slightly better.

Oh, and Mia and Shinon should probably be a tier up just because of the doubling thing. Mia's durability isn't amazing anymore, but it's still good enough to make use of the whole doubling and 26 skill and +10 crit she has at base thing. Even you wouldn't begrudge Mia a Steel Blade, so she's still 3HKOing almost everything.

And Shinon is, as usual, a good cleaner for the enemies with 2 range because he ORKOs the things that probably weren't damaged on enemy phase (in the interests of causing more damage to the 1 ranged enemies on enemy phase). I never thought the day would come when I'd be arguing Shinon up against smash.

(I'd have included Ranulf in the above list, but he does have massive transformation issues. It's helpful, don't get me wrong, especially since he now trumps Mia's durability quite well. He still loses offence to her Steel Blade (3HKOing with crit vs. 3HKOing without), but he wins durability a fair amount. Even so, Neph doesn't have a transformation gauge and Ranulf is stuck mostly to enemy phase.)

Edited February 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[CATS]

From what I remember, "Chaos" is what you had on the gfaqs lists for a long period of time because no one could edit the OP. I think sometimes a person might've claimed that they were "running" the tier list or something but no one really cared. The list would simply be re-posted after something was agreed upon regardless of whether or not the OP weighed in upon it, and changes generally weren't made at all unless there was unanimous or nearly-unanimous agreement. The list would be slowly updated over time as the person making the next topic (after the previous one hit 500 posts) would post the most recent list from the old topic, rather than the OP from the old topic.

Certainly seemed to work from what I saw, as it produced many of the positions which the current list considers to be valid, and there was no room for someone to assert that their opinion is better or more valuable than someone else's just because they can edit the topic post. Also circumvented the problem of having an OP that's too lazy or inactive to edit in changes resulting in them being ignored or disregarded even if people agree with them.

[nflchamp]

The only thing I'll put out here is this.

Net utility (as opposed to gross utility), e.g. not existing > sucking

Lehran is in low on the other list not because of how utility is viewed, but rather because he is properly ranked only above people who suck enough to be a negative. Unlike here where he is ranked in the middle for no apparent reason, as quite a few people below him (pretty much everyone down through Sanaki) should have an overall net positive utility. They're not WTFawesome, but they are at least helping beat the game.

[Anouleth]

Hehehe, Smash posted this on the GFAQs boards. Snowy valiantly stepped up to point out what he thought wast the biggest flaw in it... Volug being too high.

Comedy gold.