tier list

[Interceptor]

I'm not necessarily ignoring their credit completely, but I do give it less weight.

That's what makes it useless, just in case that point flew over your head. You've introduced a sliding scale of "weight" that's not defined anywhere except in your head. Or, as I put it, a BFY button that you can push any time that someone disagrees with you.

If we need a staff user, Bastian's better. He can't use fortify, but he has liek 15 more mag anyway.

Fortify is the useful staff for Endgame, not Bastian's single-target Physic, which hardly makes any difference by itself. Never mind that much of the time, flying 9MV + Canto and Recover means that Bastian's MAG lead is a distinction without a difference. Plus, if you put your hands on the Rescue staff from 3-E, I'd think that Elincia is uniquely qualified to put it to good use because of her mobility.

And if you argue that Micaiah alone is enough for healing, since she can Fortify, then neither Bastian nor Elincia will be deployed, and we get an excellent fighter in their place instead.

Finally, Elincia can bless a Wyrmslayer for you, which makes 4-E-3 considerably easier to low-turn. The other dragons don't matter, you just need to kill Dheg. Ike, leveled sufficiently, obliterates Dheg with this thing, doing 2x20 damage, or 2x25 with Ena (aka half of Dheg's health in one attack). This cuts the pepper that you need to put up there. Elincia means that no Sword-user has to give up blessing Alondite or the Vague Katti.

EDIT: also, in terms of another thing that flying + Canto helps with, Bastian has no answer to Elincia's prowess with the Restore staff in 4-E-1. She can get in, fix status, GTFO, and maybe even take a Vigor spot afterwards.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Interceptor

[Progenitus]

What? You aren't even going to post facts and logic and reasoning with this?

They both get 2HKO'd, but Leo can at least avoid counters (Edward needs wind edge to do the same, and his att and hit become lolterrible) and he's easier to wall in because of it. Leo also provides the team a better support affinity.

Part 3 is even worse for Edward, because Lugh now gives Leo about the same offense as Edward, AND still avoids counters.

I was going to respond to int's post with trollface, but there's something hilariously contradictory in his post.

That's what makes it useless, just in case that point flew over your head. You've introduced a sliding scale of "weight" that's not defined anywhere except in your head. Or, as I put it, a BFY button that you can push any time that someone disagrees with you.

You do realize that EVERYTHING in fire emblem is subjective, or has a "sliding scale of weight" right? "How much is this offense lead worth?" "What's the value of staves?" "What's the worth of this unit being available for X more chapters?" "What's the worth of this form of favoritism if we give it to this unit?" "Should we penalize this unit for being hard to recruit?" etc.

I don't need to hear you or your complaints about something being subjective when the fact that you're debating fire emblem in the first place means you're handling subjective factors left and right.

[Interceptor]

I was going to respond to int's post with trollface, but there's something hilariously contradictory in his post.

Translation: you were going to childishly dismiss another one of my posts, but it's slowly dawning on you that your credibility erodes further every time that you ignore a valid point.

You do realize that EVERYTHING in fire emblem is subjective, or has a "sliding scale of weight" right?

That's hardly true, since there are plenty of things in Fire Emblem that are entirely straightforward, such as in-game calculations. Even things that vary are included here, since we know what the RNG does over time in terms of stats, hit rates, etc.

"How much is this offense lead worth?" "What's the value of staves?" "What's the worth of this unit being available for X more chapters?" "What's the worth of this form of favoritism if we give it to this unit?" "Should we penalize this unit for being hard to recruit?" etc.

I don't need to hear you or your complaints about something being subjective when the fact that you're debating fire emblem in the first place means you're handling subjective factors left and right.

This is a terribly easy argument to refute. By introducing your new rule (without either announcing or vetting it, by the way), you've created a contradiction that didn't exist before.

Why is it a contradiction? It's because your "what would happen if this unit didn't exist?" rule poaches from and undermines your "Unit A + army and Unit B + army" and "net utility" rules. Not only that, but unlike the Army Rule, or Hard Mode, or clear speed, or Communist distribution of resources, units not existing isn't something that actually happens in the game in the case of those that are forced.

In other words, you are adding a subjective factor to a process that is already -- by your own admission -- inundated with them. I am not against subjectivity in debating (what you wish that I said), I am against your artificial man-made subjectivity (what I actually said).

EDIT: and even in this case, I wouldn't be against it if you could actually define it with something other than vague things that you "consider".

Edited February 19, 2010 by Interceptor

[Colonel M]

Generals don't have 29 AS.

Thought they had 28 AS. Then again, Gatrie doubles them if he hits Spd cap, which is 31, so the max would have to be 27. My mistake.

Elincia's combat is terrible unless we babied her and threw paragon on her.

To be quite honest, I don't have a major issue with that. I admit that she can miss doubling on a lot of enemies in the beginning, but despite the 1 turn option in 4-5 we can use a short amount of time to get her up to Speed. Interceptor also pointed out Fortify and Wyrmslayer, which makes her useful for fulfilling Bastian's shoes for the most part (Bastian was only there for Physic anyway which Fortify shafts). I guess I'll give her a spin Part 4. She's also a staff user, so theoretically you could pump EXP from staves alone. Ward gives 17, Physic gives 22, Hammerne gives 40, and Sleep gives 35. The latter have limited uses, but Hammerne is going to be used anyway (restore Tarvos, Brave weapons, maybe a forge weapon if you want) and Sleep can just be burned off.

If we need a staff user, Bastian's better. He can't use fortify, but he has liek 15 more mag anyway.

15 Mag =/= Fortify, which heals everyone.

[Progenitus]

Translation: you were going to childishly dismiss another one of my posts, but it's slowly dawning on you that your credibility erodes further every time that you ignore a valid point.

That's hardly true, since there are plenty of things in Fire Emblem that are entirely straightforward, such as in-game calculations. Even things that vary are included here, since we know what the RNG does over time in terms of stats, hit rates, etc.

This is a terribly easy argument to refute. By introducing your new rule (without either announcing or vetting it, by the way), you've created a contradiction that didn't exist before.

Why is it a contradiction? It's because your "what would happen if this unit didn't exist?" rule poaches from and undermines your "Unit A + army and Unit B + army" and "net utility" rules. Not only that, but unlike the Army Rule, or Hard Mode, or clear speed, or Communist distribution of resources, units not existing isn't something that actually happens in the game in the case of those that are forced.

In other words, you are adding a subjective factor to a process that is already -- by your own admission -- inundated with them. I am not against subjectivity in debating (what you wish that I said), I am against your artificial man-made subjectivity (what I actually said).

EDIT: and even in this case, I wouldn't be against it if you could actually define it with something other than vague things that you "consider".

To be quite honest, I don't have a major issue with that. I admit that she can miss doubling on a lot of enemies in the beginning, but despite the 1 turn option in 4-5 we can use a short amount of time to get her up to Speed. Interceptor also pointed out Fortify and Wyrmslayer, which makes her useful for fulfilling Bastian's shoes for the most part (Bastian was only there for Physic anyway which Fortify shafts). I guess I'll give her a spin Part 4. She's also a staff user, so theoretically you could pump EXP from staves alone. Ward gives 17, Physic gives 22, Hammerne gives 40, and Sleep gives 35. The latter have limited uses, but Hammerne is going to be used anyway (restore Tarvos, Brave weapons, maybe a forge weapon if you want) and Sleep can just be burned off.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/detail.php?board=932999&topic=53510935&message=589695202

Paperblade pretty much covered why Elincia's a waste of time to train as a fighter. I don't want to spend extra turns babying Elincia since I already have plenty of capable fighters for 4-E, and even if babied her durability still blows. At least if I babied someone like Jill or Boyd, I get good offense and defense.

btw, I hope you're joking about burning good staves on her. If she uses physics before 4-E, then that's physics that my other staff users couldn't use, which is pretty significant since my staff users have generally shitty offense and defense, and physics let them stay away from enemies. Sleep could've been used by a staff user with decent mag, and that unit might've had a realistic chance of putting an enemy to sleep, unlike Elincia and her lollable magic which will be a waste of time. etc

Wyrmslayer is inefficient because it lacks 2-range, and the only way Ike can equip ragnell for enemy phase is if someone trades with him to take away the wyrmslayer (and ragnell is his next weapon in his slot so he'll auto equip it) and then on the next turn trade it back to Ike, and then after Ike attacks trade it back.... yeah, I'm not wasting my time on that crap.

Oh goodie, it nukes Degh, except this means Ike can get Ire'd because he's at 1-range, so unless he takes nihil it's too risky to do. And nihil should go to the laguz, since they have to attack at 1-range. And unless your team really, really sucks, you can take Degh down in one turn anyway, with or without wyrmslayer.

Bastian with a blessed siege tome > that.

Bastian attacks with siege tome, likely putting the enemy into 1RKO range for another unit.

Sword user attacks with wyrmslayer, killing it in one less round than without it.

The difference is that Bastian's attack is "free", so to speak. If bastian were replaced with Elincia, who I'm assuming is not attacking anything in this scenario because she wasn't assumed to be babied (if she was babied then she'd be better technically, but at the expense of going slower through previous chapters/resources, so it's not helping us. As a reminder, the situation was assuming Elincia was blessing a wyrmslayer in 4-E-3 and seeing little to no combat), then that attack wouldn't have happened in the first place. On the other hand, if the sword user didn't have wyrmslayer, they would still attack with their regular old weapon. Bastian's doing damage that wouldn't be there; the wyrmslayer is replacing the existing damage with something that does more.

And of course this is ignoring said hoops you need to fly through so you can trade wyrmslayer and not have your sword user be a sitting duck on enemy phase, while Bastian with siege tome shouldn't have this problem.

Alternately if it's safe, Bastian can attack with a thunder tome for huge damage.

15 Mag =/= Fortify, which heals everyone.

Fortify is better in Micaiah's hands if you really need fortify, because she has more mag. Basically, Micaiah with fortify + Bastian with physic > Elincia with fortify + Micaiah with physic.

Fortify is overrated anyway. It only has 5 uses and using hammerne on it means that you didn't hammerne something good like a brave weapon or Tarvos or something earlier in the game, which just hampers efficiency.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Andrew W.K.

[Interceptor]

btw, I hope you're joking about burning good staves on her.

For leveling Elincia up it's probably wasteful, but as far as Endgame performance there's no reason not to use them when necessary. I'd have Micaiah use Sleep, naturally, but Elincia is now there for that Turn to back-up heal (like with Fortify).

Wyrmslayer is inefficient because it lacks 2-range, and the only way Ike can equip ragnell for enemy phase is if someone trades with him to take away the wyrmslayer (and ragnell is his next weapon in his slot so he'll auto equip it) and then on the next turn trade it back to Ike, and then after Ike attacks trade it back.... yeah, I'm not wasting my time on that crap.

Wyrmslayer is only for Dheg, and that was already stated. Pointing out its performance on generic laguz is refuting something that nobody said, particularly since you don't even need one blessed to fight normal dragons, aka Elincia is not a factor in this scenario. You're just padding your post with useless text here.

Oh goodie, it nukes Degh, except this means Ike can get Ire'd because he's at 1-range, so unless he takes nihil it's too risky to do. And nihil should go to the laguz, since they have to attack at 1-range. And unless your team really, really sucks, you can take Degh down in one turn anyway, with or without wyrmslayer.

So here's the problem: you have two Nihils up to this point, and since we're taking down D in a single turn you can also use Parity (you have two). Ike is dealing 40-50 damage, which is half or nearly so of D's health, there is not much that's going to be left of D. In fact, if you heal Ike and Vigor him, he can basically kill the guy himself, so there is no shortage of Ire-cancelling skills here.

Just so that we're clear, nobody out-damages Ike with a Wyrmslayer on Dheg. Not a max-STR babied Shinon w/Double Bow, not Giffca, not Tibarn, not even Cain (true story: he only has 66mt to Ike's 70).

Bastian with a blessed siege tome > that.

Bastian can't hurt Dheghinsea with a blessed siege tome even if he's 20/20/20 and uses Meteor. He can only ping generics, and this map is a Boss Kill, not a Rout. Sure, he's doing better than Sanaki would, but the difference here is that Sanaki's contribution is free, but Bastian is taking up one of my 10 discretionary slots for something as stupid as weakening a generic dragon with no chance to even kill it.

Meanwhile, a blessed Wyrmslayer from Elincia even allows a Trueblade to hurt Dheg: Mia, with the lowest STR of all the serious TBs, does 2x14 on D without any supports at all.

The difference is that Bastian's attack is "free", so to speak. If bastian were replaced with Elincia, who I'm assuming is not attacking anything in this scenario because she wasn't assumed to be babied [...]

Your assumption is wrong. Elincia easily quads everything here with Amiti (for a half-kill on Whites and/or ~65% Stun shutdown chance), or she can double with a Wyrmslayer (for about half health on Reds, or nearly dead on Whites), under the idea that she's not just going to heal someone with Physic/Mend/Recover.

That's not a ORKO generally, and she may not be able to survive a Red on a clear tile because of the closeness of the numbers, but her lack of training does not make her useless as a combatant, at least not as compared to Bastian. She easily beats him on Whites, and arguably on Reds due to Stun (in scenarios when she can live). Amiti on Reds is not useful damage, but retains the stun effect and makes it easier for her to live. A Stunned Red is as good as a dead one in this chapter, even if you don't actually choose to kill it.

Taking a counter is not a big deal for Elincia, since this is a low-turned Boss Kill, and she's not going to get attacked twice due to chapter length and Canto + flying. If you look at the layout of the chapter, there is perhaps one turn of Player Phase dominance used to clear generics, before a second-turn D stomp (made easier, remember, by a blessed Wyrmslayer).

Alternately if it's safe, Bastian can attack with a thunder tome for huge damage.

Key word, if it's safe, since Bastian is guaranteed to eat a counter, cannot Canto out of danger afterwards, and gets 2HKO'ed. Depending on what Thunder tome you are referring to (forged normal, Arcthunder, Thoron, you need to specify which resource he is consuming), it'll let him beat Elincia on a Red and maybe tiegame her damage-wise on a White.

Fortify is better in Micaiah's hands if you really need fortify, because she has more mag. Basically, Micaiah with fortify + Bastian with physic > Elincia with fortify + Micaiah with physic.

The problem here is that Bastian only needs Physic because of his mobility. Elincia can fly around with a 1-range staff and much of the time wind up with the same result, to say nothing of the point I made about Restore that you ignored. Recap: in 4-E-1, she can de-status people that Hetzel Sleep/Silences easier than anyone. Or the point about Rescue that I made. Re-cap: her mobility makes her MUCH better at using Rescue to skillfully reposition people.

What you have left are the situations where 1) Elincia also has to use Physic and 2) ~15 MAG actually makes a difference in strategy (aka if someone was healed "eough" for what they had to do, the difference did not matter). Those situations are not going to be common, and they are the only place that Bastian beats Elincia in staff use. She wins all other contests.

And just to remind you, don't forget about the Matrona staff. Elincia cannot use it, but Micaiah can, and since it's a full heal at range that also puts biorhythm at max, aka Recover + Bless in one package, there are times when Micaiah would want to employ it. Ahh, but if Bastian is around, now Micaiah either needs a Vigor or it's mutually exclusive with Fortify, because he cannot use either staff. Elincia can take over Fortify duties for one turn, however.

Fortify is overrated anyway. It only has 5 uses and using hammerne on it means that you didn't hammerne something good like a brave weapon or Tarvos or something earlier in the game, which just hampers efficiency.

Fortify is not over-rated. It lets you essentially un-do the entirety of all Player Phase counters that you've taken in one Turn, or Enemy Phase attacks, or the results of an AOE. This means you can go balls-out without regard for taking damage, which is a serious help for efficiency. What's Bastian's 1-dude heal going to do, seriously? For christ's sake, we have Elixirs and Concoctions, too.

Having only five uses is hardly a big deal, since you have Ashera for 4-E-5, and you're not looking at more than one or maybe two uses in any of the Endgame chapters prior to that, with Endgame being the only place that you'll even use the staff to begin with. No need to Hammerne, even though you'd be entirely justified to do so (Tarvos? What?).

And just to remind you: hyping up Micaiah makes both Bastian and Elincia look worthless, which is bad for Bastian since it just means you replace them both with a solid Endgame filler attacker like Stefan or something.

So just to summarize:

- Elincia has staff advantages over Bastian that you ignored. This includes flexibility with Restore, far superior potential with Rescue staff, and Fortify in a pinch.

- Your objection to Wyrmslayer is in tatters. Nihil/Parity is not a factor when Ike hits Dheg that hard, Wyrmslayer on generics is something anyone can do, and 4-E-3 is Kill Boss, something she undeniably does something to assist.

Shit, Elincia is basically clutch for a low-turn of 4-E-3, when you really think about it. She blesses a Wyrmslayer (in Ike's hands it's gg Dheg, but even Mia is good with it), her superior MV and staff skill allows her to Rescue someone immediately foward for a ghetto Vigor, etc.

Honestly, Bastian as being superior to her in Endgame is a joke, and frankly even the two of them put together being better than an extra fighter is kind of funny. Conclusion? Sanaki can deploy Elincia over Bastian, or anyone over the both of them, meaning that...

Sanaki > Bastian.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Interceptor

[Progenitus]

cool story bro

[Candlejack]

:/

I'm a self-pronounced dick and even I think this thread has become balls.

I'll admit that Bastian is > than Sanaki.

The difference being that Sanaki, who has considerably weaker defense, is in much more open battlefields where enemies can attack her from almost anywhere, requiring you to incessantly guarding her as if she was the Holy Grail. Bastian swamp in 4-5, which limits enemy movement. Granted, it works both ways for him as well but he can at least afford to move closer to enemies since he won't get WTFRAPED.

And this is endgame we are talking about, where bases are infinitely more important than growths. Sanaki wins in goddamn LCK. LCK. Bastian wins in everything else on top of having superior weapon ranks. Oh, he can heal too. Sanaki can't, and in endgame where pretty much every magic user not named Micaiah is going to be left behind, it's nice to have an extra stave man. Thunder rank helps too against Dragons, so he can actually be your magic user of choice; saddle him up with Siege tomes, Rexcalibur, and a staff of your choice.

It shames me to say that he is probably one of your best choices for an endgame magic user that ISN'T mandatory. D:

[Colonel M]

The difference being that Sanaki, who has considerably weaker defense, is in much more open battlefields where enemies can attack her from almost anywhere, requiring you to incessantly guarding her as if she was the Holy Grail. Bastian swamp in 4-5, which limits enemy movement. Granted, it works both ways for him as well but he can at least afford to move closer to enemies since he won't get WTFRAPED.

Using Paperblade's post from GFAQs on 4-5:

"Yeah I'm gonna spend more than 2 turns in 4-5 when 90% of my good units are either in 4-4 because it's MFing 4-4 or in the desert because they're laguz/flyers, and Tibarn army is a joke because you have MFing Tibarn and 4-5 enemies suck and we have 4 authority stars and 4-5 is the only "Kill Boss" chapter out of 4-P through 4-5, and the other 10% solo'd half of 4-2 anyway so they don't really need more EXP, except for Elincia because she's stupid frail with a crappy affinity and no supports."

Aside from the Elincia part, this covers Bastian doing almost nothing in 4-5 anyway. He's just... there.

[Candlejack]

Using Paperblade's post from GFAQs on 4-5:

"Yeah I'm gonna spend more than 2 turns in 4-5 when 90% of my good units are either in 4-4 because it's MFing 4-4 or in the desert because they're laguz/flyers, and Tibarn army is a joke because you have MFing Tibarn and 4-5 enemies suck and we have 4 authority stars and 4-5 is the only "Kill Boss" chapter out of 4-P through 4-5, and the other 10% solo'd half of 4-2 anyway so they don't really need more EXP, except for Elincia because she's stupid frail with a crappy affinity and no supports."

Aside from the Elincia part, this covers Bastian doing almost nothing in 4-5 anyway. He's just... there.

Doing nothing > being a detriment.

You can leave Bastian there if you want. You can't leave Sanaki there for three seconds or she gets OHKO'd.

[Colonel M]

Doing nothing > being a detriment.

You can leave Bastian there if you want. You can't leave Sanaki there for three seconds or she gets OHKO'd.

You can just toss Sanaki ranged tomes and do alright. In 4-1 you're enclosed within an area and you likely have many units that can take hits. There's no flying reinforcements IIRC, so Sanaki can stand behind two - three units (whichever it takes to clog the south) and work her way around. In 4-3 she can freely move in the desert while most units have, like, 3 Mov that aren't jokes (who's dumbass idea was it to put Generals here?) and the DracoKnights which I think aren't aggressive.

Don't entirely quote me on that because I haven't played this game in a while, so the aggressive thing with the Wyverns could be wrong.

[Florete]

Doing nothing > being a detriment.

You can leave Bastian there if you want. You can't leave Sanaki there for three seconds or she gets OHKO'd.

Having a free deployment slot = Sanaki cannot possibly be a detriment.

[Candlejack]

Now see I don't get this argument about how they get their own unit slot so they cannot possibly be a detriment.

If a bad character automatically takes up a unit slot, you are pretty much FORCED to use them or utilize some tricks so they don't automatically suck.

Let me put it this way; if Sanaki had NOT taken up a unit slot, would you replace her? The automatic answer would be a definite YES since the slot she takes up is used for a bad unit.

Just because she takes up her own slot does not mean she is being useful. If anything, it's only MORE detrimental because it wastes a slot for what could be used on another, better character.

You can just toss Sanaki ranged tomes and do alright. In 4-1 you're enclosed within an area and you likely have many units that can take hits. There's no flying reinforcements IIRC, so Sanaki can stand behind two - three units (whichever it takes to clog the south) and work her way around. In 4-3 she can freely move in the desert while most units have, like, 3 Mov that aren't jokes (who's dumbass idea was it to put Generals here?) and the DracoKnights which I think aren't aggressive.

1. You can give those siege tomes to Bastian too since you won't have to use Sanaki in endgame; at least, not after E1. But that chapter is a joke anyway. HE probably uses them better anyway since you'll have to fight Laguz in a swamp map. That is much more helpful than Sanaki's chapters.

2. Still, you are forced to take two/three units on a single unit you could've just swept away into a corner. Bastian can at least fend for himself since he is not made out of paper.

3. Intelligent Systems is the biggest oxymoron on Earth.

4. Dragon Knights usually go after the squishiest unit first. A unit with base 28 HP/10 DEF in endgame is most certainly the squishiest unit you will have bar none.

2.

[Florete]

If a bad character automatically takes up a unit slot, you are pretty much FORCED to use them or utilize some tricks so they don't automatically suck.

"Utilize some tricks" aka shove them in a corner and don't worry about it any further. Wow, that was hard.

Let me put it this way; if Sanaki had NOT taken up a unit slot, would you replace her? The automatic answer would be a definite YES since the slot she takes up is used for a bad unit.

Irrelevant. I don't have that choice.

Just because she takes up her own slot does not mean she is being useful. If anything, it's only MORE detrimental because it wastes a slot for what could be used on another, better character.

That's retarded. Sanaki's forced and that's the end of it. When it's her vs Bastian, her "team" can have any other unit in the slot Bastian used and her team will very likely be better as a result.

[Candlejack]

"Utilize some tricks" aka shove them in a corner and don't worry about it any further. Wow, that was hard.

Irrelevant. I don't have that choice.

That's retarded. Sanaki's forced and that's the end of it. When it's her vs Bastian, her "team" can have any other unit in the slot Bastian used and her team will very likely be better as a result.

1. So we're pretty much "making do with what we have" then? I will not be given shit and be told its cake. AKA I will not accept that Sanaki can somehow be used in her chapters without contributing little or nothing to her team.

2. I'm just asking how her forced deployment in chapters where she will get RAPED if she isn't given your absolute attention is made up for.

3. Except Bastian can make more than a marginal effect on the battlefield. As we all know, laguz are FUCKING NUTS. But they have, like -54 RES. So Bastian can be God and blik those assholes off the swamp.

[Florete]

1. So we're pretty much "making do with what we have" then? I will not be given shit and be told its cake. AKA I will not accept that Sanaki can somehow be used in her chapters without contributing little or nothing to her team.

I can't even tell what you're trying to say here.

2. I'm just asking how her forced deployment in chapters where she will get RAPED if she isn't given your absolute attention is made up for.

She doesn't need your absolute attention. How many units do you deploy anyway? You get 10 choices for Endgame + Ike who can all act as walls already without you even thinking about it. If she really is in danger if she attacks, don't let her attack. It's not as if she's a detriment by staying out of the way since she was forced anyway.

3. Except Bastian can make more than a marginal effect on the battlefield. As we all know, laguz are FUCKING NUTS. But they have, like -54 RES. So Bastian can be God and blik those assholes off the swamp.

Using Paperblade's post from GFAQs on 4-5:

"Yeah I'm gonna spend more than 2 turns in 4-5 when 90% of my good units are either in 4-4 because it's MFing 4-4 or in the desert because they're laguz/flyers, and Tibarn army is a joke because you have MFing Tibarn and 4-5 enemies suck and we have 4 authority stars and 4-5 is the only "Kill Boss" chapter out of 4-P through 4-5, and the other 10% solo'd half of 4-2 anyway so they don't really need more EXP, except for Elincia because she's stupid frail with a crappy affinity and no supports."

Aside from the Elincia part, this covers Bastian doing almost nothing in 4-5 anyway. He's just... there.

[Colonel M]

Now see I don't get this argument about how they get their own unit slot so they cannot possibly be a detriment.

If a bad character automatically takes up a unit slot, you are pretty much FORCED to use them or utilize some tricks so they don't automatically suck.

Let me put it this way; if Sanaki had NOT taken up a unit slot, would you replace her? The automatic answer would be a definite YES since the slot she takes up is used for a bad unit.

Just because she takes up her own slot does not mean she is being useful. If anything, it's only MORE detrimental because it wastes a slot for what could be used on another, better character.

Except in your hypothetical timezone this doesn't happen in the game. Because Sanaki is a forced unit, she is not kicking out a better unit. You're allowed to use those tricks without major penalty. Who are you going to use the ranged tomes with anyway? Fucking Soren? Ilyana? CALIL? She's using them just fine anyway. It's not even that difficult to defend her, so I don't know where this bullcrap of having terrible Def comes from. I admit she does, that's why she's low on the list. That's not the point though. It's because she's forced that she isn't an auto-detriment like, say, your friend Bastian because he has to, literally, kick out a slot in your top 10 for 4-E and a slot in 4-5. That's pretty serious on the former. The latter Bastian is probably twiddling his thumbs because Tibarn is just going to rush up to Izuka and scream "OLOL YOU'RE ORKOED!"

1. You can give those siege tomes to Bastian too since you won't have to use Sanaki in endgame; at least, not after E1. But that chapter is a joke anyway. HE probably uses them better anyway since you'll have to fight Laguz in a swamp map. That is much more helpful than Sanaki's chapters.

Again, Bastian actually has to be fielded in order to use those tomes. Also we've described ways you can use Sanaki at least up until 4-E-4 where she can boot herself out for Nasir.

2. Still, you are forced to take two/three units on a single unit you could've just swept away into a corner. Bastian can at least fend for himself since he is not made out of paper.

Bastian may not be made of paper, but he might as well be. 45 HP | 20 Def. Most units have over 45 Atk without even trying (except some Generals and the Bishops), so he's 2HKOed unless he stands on a tile. It's true that Sanaki is ORKOed unless she too stands on a tile, but Bastian's durability is nothing to hype over.

3. Intelligent Systems is the biggest oxymoron on Earth.

It's true, but this is relevant in our discussion where?

4. Dragon Knights usually go after the squishiest unit first. A unit with base 28 HP/10 DEF in endgame is most certainly the squishiest unit you will have bar none.

Dragon Knights don't exist in 4-E.

SNACKY > BASTIAN PLEASE

Edited February 20, 2010 by Colonel M

[RNG Princess]

She also has Cymbeline which is equal too SS wind tome without the +3 luck, and she can put it to use before Bastian is recruited.

Also wouldn't she be a good candidate for paragon?

[Candlejack]

She also has Cymbeline which is equal too SS wind tome without the +3 luck, and she can put it to use before Bastian is recruited.

Also wouldn't she be a good candidate for paragon?

Rexflame is better

"but WT"

She gets weighed down by everything except Wind so yeah, I don't think SPD is her biggest issue anyway.

[Colonel M]

Yeah, Merlinus got that one. Can she use Rexflame and Cymbeline? Yeah. Does it change much? Not really, unfortunately.

[RNG Princess]

Cymbeline

-

13

95

10

5

1~2

45

-

8

Rexcalibur

SS

13

105

10

12

1~2

15

6750

6

Luck +3

Cymbeline is about the same but weighs less and has no bonus.

Bastaian would have to bless Rexcalibur correct? Sanaki looses to him in speed and magic by two points but her Cymbeline has 45 uses and Rexcalibur has 15 so her cymbeline can perform almost exactly like Rexcalibur and I thought that I should point it out.

[nflchamp]

:/

I'm a self-pronounced dick and even I think this thread has become balls.

I'll admit that Bastian is > than Sanaki.

The difference being that Sanaki, who has considerably weaker defense, is in much more open battlefields where enemies can attack her from almost anywhere, requiring you to incessantly guarding her as if she was the Holy Grail. Bastian swamp in 4-5, which limits enemy movement. Granted, it works both ways for him as well but he can at least afford to move closer to enemies since he won't get WTFRAPED.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. What is this "open field" crap? 4-P is lolidans and an asstard of thickets. It's like having a bunch of pseudo-corridors that let you send the enemies to whoever you damn feel (like, the people that kick ass). 4-3 is the desert. No one can move in the desert to the point where so long as the enemy Sanaki attacks is killed (either by her or a follow up) then she'd not getting attacked. You only have to watch out for the ~4 wyverns at the edges of the map. Sanaki's durability is bad, but it isn't a huge detriment.

[Progenitus]

This whole "but sanaki is forced, therefore all her negatives can be ignored" ordeal is getting very tiring and dull.

If we completely ignore any negatives Sanaki provides because we're actually trying to use her (as opposed to having her hide in a corner), then units like Meg and Fiona and Astrid should rise. They all have a couple of chapters where you have enough unit slots to field everyone available, so they're more or less "forced" in a sense anyway. Then those units can do things like shove or rescue or go run off to be cannon fodder (which Sanaki can't do, because if she dies in 4-P or 4-3 you get a game over, lulz).

Unfortunately this sort of logic will give us ridiculous conclusions like Meg > Stefan because Meg can be used to shove people in 1-4 and block some ledges in 3-13 or something, and do more than Stefan does the whole game, which is be outclassed by the top 10 units in 4-E despite the fact that he's more than capable at fighting. Which is stupid because the tier list turns into "godmoders only, no BEXP abuse, final destination" rather than an actual tier list.

As proof, look at other tier lists. Look at the FE6 tier list and wolt. No one gives a shit that he's forced for several earlygame chapters, because he's utter crap there and does nothing anyway. He doesn't beat out units like Oujay or treck who, despite them losing to the top/high tiers and if they're fielded they'd be edging out said top/high tiers (which is little different than Sanaki vs peeps like Bastian in 4-E), are actually capable of holding their own if trained, while Wolt is a pile of shit no matter what you do.

Sanaki vs Bastian is the same thing. Sanaki is forced, but she does nothing because she's crap. Bastian takes a unit slot and replaces someone, but at least he can actually do something on his own.

I might actually take this sort of logic seriously if you guys go to other games and argue the same logic for those lists. Argue Wolt over units like Oujay or treck (or at least argue him above someone like Niime), and actually win that argument. By doing that to all tier lists, it might actually look like you believe in that sort of logic, rather than blatantly trolling this tier list and leaving the others alone.

[tehnikhil]

Smash, I would like to ask about the grounds for your agruement of Snacky and Bastian (especially bastian) being lower tiered than Rolf. You concede on page three of this topic that

Yes, Oscar consumes kills/exp/resources. However, he's also helping us out killing stuff when Elincia isn't around. For an average unit like Boyd, the benefit of helping us out in chapters and the drawback of stealing kills/exp roughly evens out. For a poor unit like Soren or Rolf, the drawbacks exceed the benefits. However, for good units like Oscar or Titania, it's the opposite.

(extra stuff is quoted for telling the context that it is in.)

I am going to start with Bastian because he is easy to talk about:

I don't want to dig into the Gamefaqs topic to find the Pelleas vs Snacky arguing that I made with you, but you seemed pretty big on staff utility and claiming that was why Pelleas>Snacky. Cross apply that to Bastian. During 4-5 alone, he has staff utility and can be given a physic to heal guys. Plus, since he has control of all the elements in a laguz chapter where he is 20/20/10, he is a pretty solid fighter for that chapter too. I am thinking of his 4-5 performance alone when comparing him here, because I don't see a single negative to using him, while you conceded that using Rolf is a negative to your team and according to you, Doing nothing>Sucking and slowing the team. And, staff utility+okay prepromote fighter for one chapter>doing nothing. Therefore, Staff util+okay prepromote fighter for 1 chapter>Sucking and slowing down the team.

Also, although I am sure everyone is going to shoot me down on this, but using your arguments and logic, and seeing how you concede in the same quote that Boyd breaks even performance wise, why not raise Bastian above him? He is only being a positive.

Snacky:

Siggy sucks. We all know this. Therefore, during 4-P/4-3, she isn't going to be necessary for anything special and may just be sitting in a corner. Now, pair Siggy with Snacky. THsoe two together can kill an enemy in 1 turn. Neither have movement reduction in their chapters. 4-3 is a plus because Snacky and Siggy cna dive into diffused mobs and be able to kill one enemy without having to worry about others killing them on enemy phase. If you have a crown laying around, you can give it to siggy to help boost her effectiveness. This team shoudl be considered positive utility, becuase 4-P is going to be more likely to take on a defensive strat (at least, that is what I do. If low turn counting chapters drastically change defense strats to offense, I guess this argument won't be as valid). This means that siggy can hurt an enemy than run off, while snacky can hide behind someone and finish them off.

4-E-1 through 4-E-3, Snacky is essentially forced. I dunno about 4-E-1, but maybe snacky can find something useful to do in this chapter. If not, oh well. 4-E-2, she can make getting wishblade easier by giving her a siege tome and potshotting Levail. 4-E-3, Snacky is going to enjoy. She gets to siege tome enemies and not worry about being hurt. There is no negative utility to this, and only positive utility.

I don't want to bring every argument together unless I have to, but just using the 4-E-3 argument, we can deduct this: Snacky is forced; therefore, no oppurtunity cost exists. Damaging dragons is a plus. A positive value>A negative value. Sanaki can only give a positive value and be fine. Rolf needs to have high negative value in order to have some positive value according to you, and negative o/w positive. Snacky is the postive value; rolf is the negative. Snacky>Rolf.

Sorry if I am just pulling a "no shit sherlock" kinda thing with that last statement. Haven't debated on a tier list in a while. Just wanted to argue that though, because I never have felt like Snacky has gotten what she deserves.

Also, just a quick thing. I dunno if I will be called doing it wrong, but with Snacky, since she is forced and all, what I tend to do with her when comparing other units is Helpfulness-Oppurtunity Cost-Chapter slowdown. This justifies why guys like stefan is above her. Say Snacky has X helpfulness. Stefan has 2x helfulness with .5 oppurtunity cost (endgame) with no chatper slowdown. 1.5X>X. Therefore, Stefan>Snacky. From what you explained to me with Renning on Gamefaqs, this seemed like a decent enough way of arguing.

Edited February 21, 2010 by tehnikhil

[Narga_Rocks]

Wyrmslayer is inefficient because it lacks 2-range, and the only way Ike can equip ragnell for enemy phase is if someone trades with him to take away the wyrmslayer (and ragnell is his next weapon in his slot so he'll auto equip it) and then on the next turn trade it back to Ike, and then after Ike attacks trade it back.... yeah, I'm not wasting my time on that crap.

So, it seems like a good time for me to, again, question your tactical skill.

Ever consider that when you go into the trade list with Ike that you trade the wyrmslayer with, I don't know, something else in Ike's list? You know, then you don't have to take it away from Ike and then have Ike grab it again? Say, if his inventory is like this:

Wyrmslayer

Ragnell

Concoction

Guess what you can do. Trade wyrmslayer with concoction and bam! Ragnell is equipped and wouldn't you know it? Ike still has the wyrmslayer in his inventory. Next turn Ike can use Wyrmslayer without playing musical wyrmslayer since it's still in his inventory.

(edit: actually, even if Ike just has the wyrmslayer and Ragnell you should be able to pull it off by trading the wyrmslayer to unit B's inventory and then trading it back to Ike's. You are able to make more than one trade. You can, in fact, trade everything unit A has to unit B, everything unit B has to unit A, then back again, and make any other set up you can think of (with the exception of moving Amiti and Ragnell) and then when you are done, simply push B (gamecube controller))

Oh goodie, it nukes Degh, except this means Ike can get Ire'd because he's at 1-range, so unless he takes nihil it's too risky to do. And nihil should go to the laguz, since they have to attack at 1-range. And unless your team really, really sucks, you can take Degh down in one turn anyway, with or without wyrmslayer.

3 Nihils and 2 Paritys and you think it's a problem for Ike to take one? How many units do you actually use to take down Dheg and do you not use your heron at all? This is basically 9 attacks on Dheg in one round without any risk of Ire at all. 5 attacks, then vigor 4 units, 4 more attacks. And that's assuming you aren't using Shinon and his 3 range (or 2 range if Ire can't activate at 2 range). Also it assumes you don't have a bolting (though that is a reasonable assumption, of course).

Allow me to suggest, for the second time in my post, that your technical skills are less than average. Remember how Dheg is the only thing on the map for which you even need Nihil/Parity?

So here's the problem: you have two Nihils up to this point, and since we're taking down D in a single turn you can also use Parity (you have two). Ike is dealing 40-50 damage, which is half or nearly so of D's health, there is not much that's going to be left of D. In fact, if you heal Ike and Vigor him, he can basically kill the guy himself, so there is no shortage of Ire-cancelling skills here.

Calill

Nolan

Ike at the start of 4-P (I think the promotion is before 4-P rather than before 4-1, not like it makes a difference)

Your assumption is wrong. Elincia easily quads everything here with Amiti (for a half-kill on Whites and/or ~65% Stun shutdown chance), or she can double with a Wyrmslayer (for about half health on Reds, or nearly dead on Whites), under the idea that she's not just going to heal someone with Physic/Mend/Recover.

That's not a ORKO generally, and she may not be able to survive a Red on a clear tile because of the closeness of the numbers, but her lack of training does not make her useless as a combatant, at least not as compared to Bastian. She easily beats him on Whites, and arguably on Reds due to Stun (in scenarios when she can live). Amiti on Reds is not useful damage, but retains the stun effect and makes it easier for her to live. A Stunned Red is as good as a dead one in this chapter, even if you don't actually choose to kill it.

I'm not convinced that stun actually works if she does 0 damage. Since this is Smash's inefficient distribution of resources efficiency tier list, Sandbagged!Elincia may not have 37/39 mt with Amiti. Since she needs to do at least 1 damage to stun (or I got annoyingly unlucky before) she might not be able to have 4 shots at stunning reds. Still gets 2 shots with a wyrmslayer, though, since she'll certainly do damage with that. And those whites definitely drop to low enough hp with wyrmslayer that any scrub can OHKO and thus avoid the powerful counter. Even Cain doesn't want to take too many of those things (not implying Cain is a scrub). Even Amiti gets them low enough for some units. 34 mt base with Amiti. Whites have 72hp and 22/24 def, so she knocks them down to either 32 hp or 24 hp. 32 hp/24 def means that it can be OHKOd with 56 mt. 24 hp/22 def means that it can be OHKOd by just 46 mt. Also, 52 mt with wyrmslayer means the weaker ones drop to 12 hp and the stronger ones have 16 hp. Like you said, nearly dead, considering at the most a unit will need 40 mt to OHKO. This also assumes she didn't at least get some levels along the way. Even without being smart and putting Paragon on her in 4-2 and letting her get to a good level, she should be at least level 5, which gives her 21 or 22 str, making it even easier for things to kill her leavings.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Narga_Rocks