S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Narga_Rocks]

Cross list comparisons make perfectly fine sense so long as something in the gameplay mechanics of the other game does not invalidate the argument made. I.e, there's nothing in FE7 or FE4 that would make it okay to tier Hector but not Sigurd, and Sigurd but not Hector. Likewise, in FE8 and FE9 there's nothing that would make it okay to tier Seth but not Titania or tier Titania but not Seth.

And bringing us to our current situation, there's nothing that causes it to make sense to tier FE6 Merlinus but not FE7 Merlinus, so I'd appreciate it if Int would stop making lame attempts to be funny. He kind of has a history of doing that when Merlinus discussion pops up (the whole let's tier grass tile in reference to the IOS post was completely roundabout logic if I've ever heard of roundabout logic. Hell, I'm being nice to Int by allowing such an atrocity to be called "logic".)

Except Merlinus from fe6 and Merlinus from fe7 are extremely different. The convoy function works in a different way (you don't have to have fe6 Merlinus on the field to send stuff to him). He gains exp differently. He moves differently. Apparently his own personal inventory functions differently. You no longer determine whether or not to deploy him in the same way. Really, they might as well have named the fe7 one Joe for all the similarities between the two "units". They are not nearly close enough that you can say they are either both tiered or neither tiered.

And I'd still like to tier the arenas in games that have them. Or even make a tier list of just arenas by game (each game with arenas has only one "arena" entity, rather than one entity on the list for each occurrence of an arena in the game). fe4 arena for top tier.

And Int's logic here isn't so bad. I mean, sure, there are holes in it, but it's not completely logic-deprived. And I bet nobody here will ever be able to see ULE without thinking Unit Like Entity.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[frat_tastic]

My mistake saying Merlinus is a negative for the EXP rank, you're right, he's neutral to it.

Maybe I'm not understanding the arguments correctly, but it sounds like we're going back to not tiering Merlinus because people are considering what he does far too positive. If he means we don't have to deploy a couple units with spare room in their inventory then whatever, thats a plus for him. It doesn't make him absolutely necessary, but its certainly something that he brings to the team that is a positive. Because it is actually fairly easily remedied (just have a couple people buy stupidly expensive items with the silver card instead of a bunch of little ones) to NOT use Merlinus, I don't think it auto-tops him.

Merlinus has far more things going for him that are more similar to a "real" unit than things against him. He's just in a class that functions different than everyone else. Ninian/Nils are in a class that functions totally different than everyone else, should we not tier them either?

[Life]

Merlinus has far more things going for him that are more similar to a "real" unit than things against him. He's just in a class that functions different than everyone else. Ninian/Nils are in a class that functions totally different than everyone else, should we not tier them either?

My whole argument hinged on "he doesn't actually do anything, he's just there". It's only when I brought up the Ranks did I make the mistake of saying that he either auto-tops or auto-bottoms the list.

But once again, Merlinus doesn't do anything. You can't deny this fact. He just sits on the field. Ninian/Nils do something turn after turn by refreshing people. What does Merlinus do aside from eat popcorn and sort out which Iron Sword has 25 uses left vs. which one has 26?

We field Merlinus to hold items. But the extent of using him is just saying "Yes" to the question of "Do you want to field Merlinus". How is that similar to dancing?

[nflchamp]

Personally I'm against dropping Merlinus off the list, because I disagree with the idea that he's not a unit. I don't really buy that he's just "the convoy with a name and a face". No other convoy (FE6 aside) is a moveable (eventually), deployable, separate unit on the field. Nor do they get supports. Nor do they have battle sprites. Or any of the minute things also associated with Merlinus.

Marth and Eirika/Ephraim function as movable convoys.

[frat_tastic]

I said separate unit, which in my mind means a unit who functions only as the convoy and is separate from another unit, but I see where that statement may have been unclear.

What Merlinus does is in no way similar to dancing, nor did I say that it was. I said he functions differently than every other unit, just like Ninils functions differently than any other unit. No other unit refreshes people other than Ninils, and no other unit has the capacity for items that Merlinus does.

You just sort of contradicted yourself by saying Merlinus does nothing, then saying he holds items for us. Holding items doesn't equal nothing. Yeah, he's not moving around the map until he promotes, but not moving doesn't mean he's doing nothing. Our extent of "using" Merlinus goes beyond the point where we say yes to deploying him. He gets "used" every time a unit exceeds their item capacity and we send an item to him.

Another function Merlinus can provide, if you so wish to use him for it, is after promotion he makes for a pretty decent dodge tank if you want to draw attacks off of frailer units and onto him. How effective this is, since he can't counterattack and thus hurts combat, is debatable, but it is something that he can do other than store items for us.

Basically I'm viewing it as Merlinus's class functions differently than other units. Does that mean he isn't a unit? No, not at all. It just means our approach to how we use him has to differ from how other units are used. We change our approach all the time. We don't try to use healers to fight (unpromoted healers mind you), or combat units to refresh people, or bards to carry large amounts of items for us. We use each unit as its class is best used. Transporter is no different in that regard.

Edited March 25, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Balcerzak]

Another function Merlinus can provide, if you so wish to use him for it, is after promotion he makes for a pretty decent dodge tank if you want to draw attacks off of frailer units and onto him. How effective this is, since he can't counterattack and thus hurts combat, is debatable, but it is something that he can do other than store items for us.

Personal experience here, but he does an absolutely stand up job dodge-tanking Ursula's Boltings in Battle Before Dawn. Since you almost always wind up taking at least a few hits from siege tomes anyway, the damage to combat ranking is minimal as well, as you can have someone else moving inside her range to finish her off and he'll be a distraction that makes it happen.

[Interceptor]

And bringing us to our current situation, there's nothing that causes it to make sense to tier FE6 Merlinus but not FE7 Merlinus, so I'd appreciate it if Int would stop making lame attempts to be funny. He kind of has a history of doing that when Merlinus discussion pops up (the whole let's tier grass tile in reference to the IOS post was completely roundabout logic if I've ever heard of roundabout logic. Hell, I'm being nice to Int by allowing such an atrocity to be called "logic".)

My argument is entirely serious, butterscotch. I understand that the concept of tiering terrain tiles hurts your Merlinus case, but that's your problem. It doesn't give you cover to ignore the issue, nor does it make me a clown for pointing it out.

There is only one important factor when it comes to Merlinus and the Arena in terms of whether or not to tier them, and that is the extent to which people are willing to bend the definition of what constitutes a unit. Merlinus is clearly different from the combatants, healers, and dancers that make up the rest of this list with respect to contributing to S-rank; this point has been beaten into the ground and requires no explanation. But the same goes for Terrain tiles (some of them, anyway), particularly in the case of Arena, which undeniably contributes to S-ranking. You say the Arena just sits there and does what it does? So does Merlinus.

To date, there have only been a scant handful of people who actually admit that the cutoff point of what everyone is willing to accept is the real reason that Merlinus would be tiered and terrain tiles would not.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Interceptor

[frat_tastic]

Merlinus has so much more in common with your other units than things like terrain tiles and the arena do.

Merlinus has stats, like player units.

Merlinus can be controlled and moved, like player units.

Merlinus has a portrait and battle sprite, like player units.

Merlinus has a class, like player units.

Merlinus has supports, like player units.

The Arena or terrain tiles have none of these. The only thing they have in common is that they don't move (which Merlinus does do after a while) and they both contribute to S-Ranking. This is like saying that a Silver Sword should be ranked, because it contributes to S-Ranking. Hell, it even has good offense and can move around the map (in a characters inventory). Let's tier weapons like combat units!

Edited March 25, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Interceptor]

Merlinus has so much more in common with your other units than things like terrain tiles and the arena do.

This does not address my argument.

Merlinus is closer to Eliwood than a Peak is. He's still not a unit, so you're making an exception for him, one that you do not extend to other things that have similarities to units. You've identified where you'd draw the line that I was referring to. Congratulations.

This is like saying that a Silver Sword should be ranked, because it contributes to S-Ranking. Hell, it even has good offense and can move around the map (in a characters inventory). Let's tier weapons like combat units!

Well, weapons are on the battle prep screen, after all. Plus, because of things like weight, cost considerations, and durability, it can be argued that some are better for S-ranking than others. If taking this issue to its ultimate absurdity helps you understand how ridiculous it is to tier Merlinus on a list with 90%+ combatants, I am all for it.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Interceptor

[chrysalid]

Personal experience here, but he does an absolutely stand up job dodge-tanking Ursula's Boltings in Battle Before Dawn. Since you almost always wind up taking at least a few hits from siege tomes anyway, the damage to combat ranking is minimal as well, as you can have someone else moving inside her range to finish her off and he'll be a distraction that makes it happen.

I use him in 27 Kenneth (I think it's Kenneth, the one with the boss that has Aura and Purge) to tank the general that drops the speedwings for ten turns (standing in forests) so I can kill other promoted units and still get Harken.

So clearly Merlinus > Harken.

Edit - Wrote 24, meant 27.

Edited March 25, 2010 by chrysalid

[frat_tastic]

What are these things that Merlinus has in common with things like the arena and terrain tiles? What, in your opinion, makes Merlinus not a unit? I'm not seeing it, so if you could clear up for me where you are coming from, it would be much appreciated.

You talk about bending the definition of what a unit is, but Merlinus is under what I would consider to be a unit. He has all the functions of what a unit is, to me at least, just he is used according to the specifications his class allow, just like any other unit is. The way you talk, we should only be tiering combat units, since they make up "90%+" of the units. I'm interested in knowing what you consider to be a "unit".

[nflchamp]

I said separate unit, which in my mind means a unit who functions only as the convoy and is separate from another unit, but I see where that statement may have been unclear.

Marth and Eirika/Ephraim are separate units from everybody else. If I didn't give them anything they'd be like Merlinus. Either way, you probably don't give them credit for being the convoy. If you don't, then you can't give Merlinus credit for being the convoy. Being a face on a game mechanic does not make him a unit.

[GreatEclipse]

Nino needs to go way up, possibly over Pent. You need her to unlock 28x, vital to the Tactics and Funds ranks.

[Life]

Nino needs to go way up, possibly over Pent. You need her to unlock 28x, vital to the Tactics and Funds ranks.

Is this a serious statement or is it just out there for kicks? Because if it's serious, it's like saying that Hector should go up because he seizes thrones and gates, vital for moving on to the next chapter in order to conserve turns on the current map.

[Dat Nick]

Int, your IOS impression was cute at first. It's getting irritating now, because you are unable to offer up a good reason how tiering Merlinus and terrain tiles go hand in hand. All your posts is repeat the let's tier terrain joke, it's to the level where I think you're trolling despite you insisting otherwise.

I've addressed the issue about the unit screen a million times; if Hector was not in the unit select screen (But in the trade menu, so you could still fuck with his items beforehand), would that change anything? No, it would not. Unit screen =/= valid argument, find something else to harp on.

Furthermore, Merlinus is not being tiered by "what just happens" which is further reasoning as to why your arena example is the pinnacle of roundabout logic. He's being tiered for when he moves and uses the Merch command. That's what everybody who agreed he should be tiered has tiered him by, because most of us would rather not see him top the tier list for having 100 item slots.

For the record I'm not arguing for either sides, I'm just getting sick of Int's posts. I don't care what happens to Merlinus as long as both copies of him are on or off the list. One taking a unit slot and one not is not enough to convince me.

Edited March 25, 2010 by s Portsman

[GreatEclipse]

Is this a serious statement or is it just out there for kicks? Because if it's serious, it's like saying that Hector should go up because he seizes thrones and gates, vital for moving on to the next chapter in order to conserve turns on the current map.

Hector should have his own tier. Not only is his contribution to a low turn count infinite on maps where he needs to seize, you also need him to kill the boss in chapter 11. Without Hector, you never even start chapter 12.

[CATS]

fe6 Merlinus is like a dancer that can't dance but has 105 item slots rather than 5. That's a lot closer to a unit than fe7 Merlinus. As for the cross-list comparisons, yeah, I know, but still. He's like the worst convoy of all time and he gets to be on a list because of it? And some people want him in high or better. Worst convoy unit of all time is high tier (or even upper mid) while fe6 Merlinus, clearly superior as far as being a convoy is concerned (doesn't need to be deployed to serve his primary function) is near the bottom? No way.

I was simply addressing this statement: "You are basically tiering the worst convoy to ever exist in fire emblem, and the others don't get tiered because they are too good at their job to need to take up a spot on the field?" In pointing out that FE6 Merlinus is indeed tiered.

I don't really see what "he's the worst convoy ever" has to do with anything. This talk of "he gets to be on a list because he's the worst convoy" sounds like he's being rewarded for it, as if Merlinus cares whether or not he's on the tier list. I also just don't see what the point is. I thought he was tiered because some people think he's a unit, not because he's a "worse convoy" than whatever characters in other games; those two concepts seem to be quite unrelated. I also don't see anyone trying to put Merlinus in high tier.

And Int's logic here isn't so bad. I mean, sure, there are holes in it, but it's not completely logic-deprived. And I bet nobody here will ever be able to see ULE without thinking Unit Like Entity.

It's not completely logic-deprived, but it's still pretty meaningless. I was under the impression that he's not being serious anyways (though of course he will claim otherwise upon seeing this post). There is a gap between Eliwood and Merlinus in terms of how close they are to being a "unit." There's another, arguably larger, gap between Merlinus and Forest in that respect. Interceptor's ULE junk seems to assume that the second gap between Merlinus and Forest either doesn't exist or is insignificant, but that obviously isn't the case.

---

But once again, Merlinus doesn't do anything. You can't deny this fact. He just sits on the field. Ninian/Nils do something turn after turn by refreshing people. What does Merlinus do aside from eat popcorn and sort out which Iron Sword has 25 uses left vs. which one has 26?

We field Merlinus to hold items. But the extent of using him is just saying "Yes" to the question of "Do you want to field Merlinus". How is that similar to dancing?

Well, it depends on whether you consider passive abilities to be relevant or not. For example, supports. Kent x Sain requires one of them to perform the Support action, but not both. Suppose that Kent moves up to Sain and uses "Support." Now both of them get stat bonuses when they're together on the field, and furthermore, Sain must be on the field in order for Kent to receive those bonuses--even though Sain himself never actually performed an action in order to make it so. Sending items to Merlinus is a pretty similar case. You don't select Merlinus himself or actually perform an action with Merlinus, but other units are able to perform a useful action ("Send To Merlinus") because Merlinus exists and is on the field. So if you think Merlinus is irrelevant, would you also think that Sain's role in his support with Kent is irrelevant?

---

Maybe I'm not understanding the arguments correctly, but it sounds like we're going back to not tiering Merlinus because people are considering what he does far too positive.

Indeed, that's what it sounded like originally. If that's the actual reason for removing him, I'll argue for Matthew to be taken off as well.

Another function Merlinus can provide, if you so wish to use him for it, is after promotion he makes for a pretty decent dodge tank if you want to draw attacks off of frailer units and onto him. How effective this is, since he can't counterattack and thus hurts combat, is debatable, but it is something that he can do other than store items for us.

I mentioned this earlier, and it's a good point. Life claims that Merlinus can't do anything because he can't take actions himself, but this isn't strictly true. After promotion, you can move him and order him to "Wait," which clearly qualifies as Merlinus taking action, and that action has the potential to be useful. An extremely minimal potential, of course, but it's still there.

---

Cross list comparisons make perfectly fine sense so long as something in the gameplay mechanics of the other game does not invalidate the argument made. I.e, there's nothing in FE7 or FE4 that would make it okay to tier Hector but not Sigurd, and Sigurd but not Hector. Likewise, in FE8 and FE9 there's nothing that would make it okay to tier Seth but not Titania or tier Titania but not Seth.

Cross list comparisons in the sense of "this list uses this standard, so why doesn't this list use it" are irrelevant. Pointing out that another list uses different logic or a different standard only indicates precisely that, that the other list approaches the issue differently or is just outright inconsistent. It doesn't prove anything about what the local tier list should do. If the FE8 efficiency list had Seth in bottom tier because supposedly "he's an Exp hog," it wouldn't mean that Marcus should follow suit on the FE7 list.

For the record I'm not arguing for either sides, I'm just getting sick of Int's posts. I don't care what happens to Merlinus as long as both copies of him are on or off the list. One taking a unit slot and one not is not enough to convince me.

Taking a unit slot isn't the only difference between them. FE6 Merlinus can be selected and moved around for the entire game, and is capable of taking a number of actions which other "units" can also take (Wait, Shop/Armory, Village, Trade, etc). This is the biggest difference between the two, imo at least.

---

To date, there have only been a scant handful of people who actually admit that the cutoff point of what everyone is willing to accept is the real reason that Merlinus would be tiered and terrain tiles would not.

Surely this is the case. The question is, who cares? I think tiering Marcus is stupid and ridiculous because he's very different from the other combatants in the game (only unit who, relative to the team, gets much, much worse the farther you go into the game, and etc), but why should anyone care what my personal opinion on the issue is?

---

Nino needs to go way up, possibly over Pent. You need her to unlock 28x, vital to the Tactics and Funds ranks.

I don't disagree, but unfortunately your argument is unconventional, and therefore invalid.

[Florete]

Hector should have his own tier. Not only is his contribution to a low turn count infinite on maps where he needs to seize, you also need him to kill the boss in chapter 11. Without Hector, you never even start chapter 12.

Either you're trolling or you actually haven't figured out that units don't get credit for actions like that.

Or is this some analogy for the Merlinus discussion going on? Because, call me stupid, but I'm not seeing the connection.

[Rewjeo]

Personally, I feel as though Merlinus could easily be tiered, and I'm indifferent as to whether or not he is. Although I feel as though it would be best to tier him and then people can choose to ignore him if they want. It's not like anyone's forcing people to discuss him if they don't want.

[Narga_Rocks]

For the record I'm not arguing for either sides, I'm just getting sick of Int's posts. I don't care what happens to Merlinus as long as both copies of him are on or off the list. One taking a unit slot and one not is not enough to convince me.

Except Merlinus from fe6 and Merlinus from fe7 are extremely different. The convoy function works in a different way (you don't have to have fe6 Merlinus on the field to send stuff to him). He gains exp differently. He moves differently. Apparently his own personal inventory functions differently. You no longer determine whether or not to deploy him in the same way. Really, they might as well have named the fe7 one Joe for all the similarities between the two "units". They are not nearly close enough that you can say they are either both tiered or neither tiered.

I was simply addressing this statement: "You are basically tiering the worst convoy to ever exist in fire emblem, and the others don't get tiered because they are too good at their job to need to take up a spot on the field?" In pointing out that FE6 Merlinus is indeed tiered.

Okay, true, fe6 is tiered, and certainly has more of a right to it than fe7 Merlinus.

I don't really see what "he's the worst convoy ever" has to do with anything. This talk of "he gets to be on a list because he's the worst convoy" sounds like he's being rewarded for it, as if Merlinus cares whether or not he's on the tier list. I also just don't see what the point is. I thought he was tiered because some people think he's a unit, not because he's a "worse convoy" than whatever characters in other games; those two concepts seem to be quite unrelated.

But their justification for him being a unit wouldn't actually be true if he was better at his job. If he gets tiered, I'd like to see the ones that do the job better be on their respective lists and higher than he ends up on this one.

I also don't see anyone trying to put Merlinus in high tier.

Inui, back when this came up in the other topic. I think there were others, but I can't remember for certain and can't be bothered to look it up. If I'm wrong about the numbers, sorry.

It's not completely logic-deprived, but it's still pretty meaningless. I was under the impression that he's not being serious anyways (though of course he will claim otherwise upon seeing this post). There is a gap between Eliwood and Merlinus in terms of how close they are to being a "unit." There's another, arguably larger, gap between Merlinus and Forest in that respect. Interceptor's ULE junk seems to assume that the second gap between Merlinus and Forest either doesn't exist or is insignificant, but that obviously isn't the case.

I'm sure he is quite serious about certain points. Like, people are making an arbitrary line to determine what makes a unit. A more reasonable definition would not include Merlinus, and you must stretch it to include him. If you can stretch it to include him, why not stretch it to include other ULEs? As for his personal preference, I think he's made it abundantly clear that his preference is to not tier Merlinus (at least the fe7 version) and to not tier the other ULEs. But yeah, I'm certain that he is finding the whole thing most entertaining and while I can't say that he wouldn't be doing this otherwise, I'm sure it helps.

Cross list comparisons in the sense of "this list uses this standard, so why doesn't this list use it" are irrelevant. Pointing out that another list uses different logic or a different standard only indicates precisely that, that the other list approaches the issue differently or is just outright inconsistent. It doesn't prove anything about what the local tier list should do. If the FE8 efficiency list had Seth in bottom tier because supposedly "he's an Exp hog," it wouldn't mean that Marcus should follow suit on the FE7 list.

Well, given we know the exp hog argument is not a good one, I think the logical conclusion of this dilemma would not be "Marcus should go down because of where Seth is on his list", but rather, "Seth should go up because of where Marcus is on his list."

Basically, the cross list comparisons don't have to go in the direction for the worse. We can look at dissimilarities between two lists and determine that at least one of the two lists ought to change in some way. The arguments that put each unit in its respective place can then be re-analyzed and a proper position can be set up for both units. The lists are all on the same site, so while we don't have to make them consistent, the fact that arguments worked on one list mean that the arguments should at least be attempted on the other list. Of course, some games have different mechanics or situations that create different conclusions, but that wouldn't fall under the idea of the lists being inconsistent, then.

Basically, it is worth analyzing different lists and figuring out which one (if any) is doing something better than others.

Surely this is the case. The question is, who cares? I think tiering Marcus is stupid and ridiculous because he's very different from the other combatants in the game (only unit who, relative to the team, gets much, much worse the farther you go into the game, and etc), but why should anyone care what my personal opinion on the issue is?

Well, considering this kind of issue isn't one that can be settled objectively, personal opinions actually do matter.

[Rewjeo]

How many other ULEs are there? I mean, you CAN argue that tiles are ULEs, but they're far less UL than Merlinus, and I would say that they aren't ULEs.

[Balcerzak]

I'm sure he is quite serious about certain points. Like, people are making an arbitrary line to determine what makes a unit. A more reasonable definition would not include Merlinus, and you must stretch it to include him. If you can stretch it to include him, why not stretch it to include other ULEs? As for his personal preference, I think he's made it abundantly clear that his preference is to not tier Merlinus (at least the fe7 version) and to not tier the other ULEs. But yeah, I'm certain that he is finding the whole thing most entertaining and while I can't say that he wouldn't be doing this otherwise, I'm sure it helps.

Why wouldn't it, and how must you stretch it? What makes the definition where he is not a unit any more "reasonable" than the ones where he is?

I can think of more definitions that include Merlinus in the category of unit than those that exclude him.

The only other ULE that could even come remotely close would be Snag and Broken Wall, due to their having hit points. However, even if they were to be accorded positions as units, they are clearly NPCs, as they act neither in the enemy phase, nor the player phase, and we don't tier NPCs, otherwise we should put Zephiel in bottom tier for making Battle Before Dawn challenging.

Edit: See page 5 (pdf)/8 (manual) L button description of the Shadow Dragon manual (can't find the Fire Emblem one online, and don't have my box with me).

"Move cursor to a unit that has not taken any action this turn".

Merlinus responds to the L button.

Merlinus is a unit. QED.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Interceptor]

What are these things that Merlinus has in common with things like the arena and terrain tiles?

Nobody is drawing direct comparisons between these two things, rather it's a Merlinus vs. unit next to terrain vs. unit thing.

What, in your opinion, makes Merlinus not a unit? I'm not seeing it, so if you could clear up for me where you are coming from, it would be much appreciated.

The differences are not a matter of opinion, they are facts. They range from the serious (Merlinus has no combat) to the nit-picky (Merlinus does not appear in the unit select screen, does not impact Survivial, etc). The conclusion one draws from them, is the opinion.

You talk about bending the definition of what a unit is, but Merlinus is under what I would consider to be a unit. He has all the functions of what a unit is, to me at least, just he is used according to the specifications his class allow, just like any other unit is.

Of course you consider him to be a unit, since your definition of "unit" just so happens to include him, and naturally you wouldn't see it as bending the definition at all.

The way you talk, we should only be tiering combat units, since they make up "90%+" of the units. I'm interested in knowing what you consider to be a "unit".

Better to ask me what I consider to be worth tiering, and then I'll tell you how tiering non-combatants is asinine. Although, in a Ranked list, it's easier to actually deal with the likes of Dancers and Healers because of the concrete, measurable benefit that they have in terms of how units are supposed to be listed in the first place.

Anyway, almost all of the tiering conversation about Merlinus is about whether or not to tier him, not where he's supposed to go. Some people find this meta-discussion to be nutritious: I do not. I have nothing new to add to the points that I've already made.

Int, your IOS impression was cute at first. It's getting irritating now, because you are unable to offer up a good reason how tiering Merlinus and terrain tiles go hand in hand.

It's not a joke, or an IOS impression, it's a serious argument. Scroll up and read what I wrote, or continue raging, it matters not. If you don't get it, c'est la vie.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Why wouldn't it, and how must you stretch it? What makes the definition where he is not a unit any more "reasonable" than the ones where he is?

I can think of more definitions that include Merlinus in the category of unit than those that exclude him.

The only other ULE that could even come remotely close would be Snag and Broken Wall, due to their having hit points. However, even if they were to be accorded positions as units, they are clearly NPCs, as they act neither in the enemy phase, nor the player phase, and we don't tier NPCs, otherwise we should put Zephiel in bottom tier for making Battle Before Dawn challenging.

Until he promotes, you may as well consider Merlinus to be an NPC. You can't move him, if he dies it has no effect on your ranks. Basically, he's a lot like an NPC. He has supports, sure, but what else does he have? Now, since most of his functions are about the same as if he was an NPC, the only thing he would then get credit for (until promotion) is that you can walk up to him to take items and if you are crazy you can build a support.

As for definitions:

Unit can move during all of its available chapters and exists in the unit selection menu in any chapters after the unit's recruitment that have one (barring death).

Okay, it's not a great definition, but it is one possible definition. How is it less reasonable than another definition that includes Merlinus? Also, this definition has the advantage of being incredibly simple. The simplest definitions are the best. It won't work in PoR (Gatrie, even some of the mains disappear for a bit after chapter 1) or RD or fe8 or fe5 or fe4, but I think it works in this game, which is what matters here. Also,

Unit can move during all of its available chapters and exists after recruitment in the unit selection menu in any of its existing chapters that have a unit selection menu.

And that should cover some of those other games, as well. It still needs to be modified a bit, though, for units that exist and then disappear and then show up later on but not in the unit selection menu of their first chapter back. A note about re-recruitment would be necessary, or some reference to being blue or something.

Unit can move during all of its available chapters and exists (after recruitment or re-recruitment) in the unit selection menu in any of its consecutive existing chapters that have a unit selection menu.

It's still not perfect and is getting less and less simple along the way, but that's only because I'm trying to extend it to other games. The first one should work just fine for fe7, and it excludes Merlinus in 3 ways already.

[frat_tastic]

Just because Merlinus can't move doesn't make him an NPC. He has all the functions of a PC, he just has 0 move. You can trade with him, access the convoy, etc. It just so happens that the Transporter class has a base move of 0.

The problem I have with your definitions is that they sound like they are being specifically created to exclude Merlinus from the list. Things like units being able to move and units having to appear in the unit selection screen are obviously two things that Merlinus doesn't have (move is obviously just before promo), but I fail to see how they would make him any less of a unit. The only thing that Merlinus has that I can see being counted against him is that he doesn't appear in the unit selection screen, which seems extremely small compared to all the other things he has that are the same as other units.

Also Int, I fail to see how your aregument of others and myself drawing this arbitrary line is really all that relevant or useful. Yeah, I have a line where I would cut off what I consider to be a unit and what I don't consider to be one, but so does everyone, including yourself. What you consider isn't fact, its where you decide this arbitrary line goes, so bringing it up doesn't seem to do much good to me.