S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Life]

What I'm personally seeing are reasons to tier Merlinus on a regular tier list as a unit. But this is an S Rank tier list where units are graded by how much they help or hurt the chances of S Ranking HHM.

What does Merlinus do for the Ranks that makes him better than... Karla, for instance? I'm choosing Karla because she's at the bottom of the list and generally takes an arm and a leg to utilize properly in attempting an S Rank run.

There is nothing that Merlinus does to help the ranks more than Karla (tanking Bolting shots for 0 Exp isn't helping the ranks more than killing and gaining Exp, no matter how you want to swing it). Furthermore, none of us can agree on whether he's a proper unit or not, never mind helping the ranks.

If he gets on, he should be at the bottom of the list. Karla might be the most negative of everyone towards the ranks but everything she does is still beneficial in some way. Merlinus doesn't do anything for the ranks at all.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[frat_tastic]

Not necessarily true. He allows us to purchase large amounts of items without having to sacrifice space in other units inventories, and also allows us access to the convoy during maps.

How valuable the former is depends on the the player really, and the second doesn't seem like its a huge advantage. I'd say the first is more useful that what crap like Karla brings, although it's hardly a necessity, so it's not like he gets auto-topped or anything. We can send units in with restricted inventory space if we want to buy large amounts of, say, killer and silver weapons for our units to use. From a funds-rank perspective, he can be incredibly useful or pretty useless, depending on how we approach buying things. If we buy lots of small items throughout the course of the game, he's pretty useful since we likely are sending him lots of stuff. If we wait until the end of the game and buy only a few really expensive items, his value diminishes.

I'd say somewhere in like lower-mid, offhand. I haven't looked at comparisons or anything, but him allowing us to buy lots of weapons without sacrificing inventory space and allowing us access to the convoy, in addition to really good durability, sounds more useful (again, offhand) than anything the people in low or bottom have to offer.

EDIT: I forgot to say that these help the funds rank (obvious) and, indirectly, the tactics and combat ranks by allowing us to get lots of good weapons and fight better/kill enemies faster/finish chapters earlier.

Edited March 26, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Anouleth]

His position if tiered depends on how willing you are to sacrifice a unit slot on a mule or something to run around trading people items. Like if you're not using Fiora seriously, she might be fielded anyway to ferry doods, so she can take spare stuff from people when they're full.

And really, how hard is it to plan ahead and make sure that nothing valuable needs to be discarded?

[Interceptor]

Also Int, I fail to see how your aregument of others and myself drawing this arbitrary line is really all that relevant or useful. Yeah, I have a line where I would cut off what I consider to be a unit and what I don't consider to be one, but so does everyone, including yourself. What you consider isn't fact, its where you decide this arbitrary line goes, so bringing it up doesn't seem to do much good to me.

If you don't see how it's relevant, take it to the logical conclusion. What value does including Merlinus add to the tier list? Discussion? At this point, 90% of the discussion about Merlinus has nothing to do with his tier position at all. The Admiral has noticed that due to the unique benefits that Merlinus gives, he can be positioned and justified almost anywhere at all, from shit tier to Top tier, depending on how you weight his contribution to Funds as a warehouse with a face.

My opinion on the matter is that all ULEs are tiered, or none are. If you're going to go down the route of putting a convoy on the list, you might as well argue a Silver Sword between Eliwood and a Forest. There are plenty of ways for us to waste keystrokes, here, if passing time by arguing about silly things is the goal.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Interceptor

[frat_tastic]

I guess this is where our opinions on the matter just have to differ then. I don't argue for Merlinus to be on the tier list for the sake of having discussion, I argue to have him put on the tier list because I think that as a player controlled unit, Merlinus should have a place on the tier list, just like all the other player units do. How we view his contributions do make his position on the list vary, but the same can be said about dancers and healers as well. Although, we already know you're view on tiering dancers and healers. I think that we, as a tier list community, can come to an agreeance on how valuable Merlinus's contributions are, thus he will find a commonly accepted place on the list.

I also don't view Merlinus as a unit-like entity, but as a unit, plain and simple.

Edited March 26, 2010 by frat_tastic

[nflchamp]

And there are plenty of people, I'm sure, that see him as a face on a game mechanic. At which point, if you rank him, you'd have to rank all game mechanics. So the next question: should we tier something when we can't even largely agree it really is a unit?

[frat_tastic]

Yes, if the only argument being presented is he's merely a face on a game mechanic, because there is obviously a lot more than a portrait and a name attached to Merlinus that makes him like a PC unit. Unfortunately for me, there's more to it than that, so there still needs to be discussion.

Edited March 26, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Rewjeo]

Merlinus has the following that "other" ULEs don't: HP Stat, ATK stat, SKL stat, SPD stat, LUK stat, DEF stat, RES stat, CON stat, AID stat, MOV stat, EXP gain (although a different form), promotion, the ability for the player to control, deployed only if the player chooses, a class, a face, he's an individual, he has supports, he can "die", he can be attacked, units cannot move into the place that he takes up(Walls/Peaks/etc. don't count. Fliers), can hold items, allows us to use a certain action only while he is in play, has the ability to wait, etc.

[GreatEclipse]

Either you're trolling or you actually haven't figured out that units don't get credit for actions like that.

The only reason units do not credit for such actions is people disliking the implications of it. The contributions Hector makes to a low turn count in chapter 11 with his combat is infinitely higher than anything Marcus or Raven ever contribute with theirs. Therefore, he should be a full tier above all other combat units. If the only argument for disregarding Nino unlocking 28x is “We would also need to give Hector his own tier if we did that”, then go ahead and give it to him.

Accounting for utility:

Matthew stealing the Silver Card is an action command only he can take.

Hector seizing the gate is an action command only he can take.

Nino talking to Jaffar is an action command only she can take.

Then consider what Nino potentially adds to the team with her contribution:

Fell Contract (50000G)

Fenrir (9000G)

Recover (2250G)

Speedwings (8000G)

Angelic Robe (8000G)

Blue Gem (10000G)

Killing Edge (1300G)

Elixir (3000G)

Then however many turns you can fall below the 28 turn requirement. She could be the difference between visiting 32x or not. What does Pent add to the team that can compete with all that?

Edited March 26, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Colonel M]

You know, technically Arena has stats. Otherwise the enemies inside it would be dummies, and there's no fun in that.

Sorry, just amused by the whole ULE myself, but I do have to agree that it is a little tiring to see.

[Florete]

The only reason units do not credit for such actions is people disliking the implications of it.

And the problem with that is...? The point of a tier list is discussion. If people don't like where certain arguments take them (in this case, mostly killing discussion), it makes sense to disregard them.

[GreatEclipse]

So can I disregard thief utility? I dislike the fact that Matthew is above units that make meaning contributions close to every turn in close to every chapter, but credit must be given where credit is due.

[Florete]

So can I disregard thief utility? I dislike the fact that Matthew is above units that make meaning contributions close to every turn in close to every chapter, but credit must be given where credit is due.

You could if you were making the tier list rules. We could also give credit for Seizing, etc. if it was agreed that we should, but I get the feeling people don't want to give credit for that.

[Rewjeo]

You know, technically Arena has stats. Otherwise the enemies inside it would be dummies, and there's no fun in that.

All terrain tiles have stats. But different stats from units.

[GreatEclipse]

You can hold units to arbitrary and inconsistent standards if you want, make no mistake. You would not have any reason to complain if I argued using a different set of arbitrary and inconsistent standards, however. I could see Bartre being given every stat booster for free vs. Raven making for a fascinating discussion.

[Florete]

You can hold units to arbitrary and inconsistent standards if you want, make no mistake. You would not have any reason to complain if I argued using a different set of arbitrary and inconsistent standards, however. I could see Bartre being given every stat booster for free vs. Raven making for a fascinating discussion.

Sounds like an idea for a conditional debate. I'd take you up on it but I got tired of formal debating a while ago.

[GreatEclipse]

Sounds like an idea for a conditional debate. I'd take you up on it but I got tired of formal debating a while ago.

I am defending Bartre in a FE6 debate tournament right now, and if I get to challenge Inui I would consider that vs. Percival. Anyway, if you only want to disregard contributions of infinite worth, then that will not hurt my argument. If you give Matthew credit for something and none to Hector for another, identical action because his contribution cannot be quantified, you can do the same for Nino.

Edited March 26, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Florete]

I am defending Bartre in a FE6 debate tournament right now, and if I get to challenge Inui I would consider that vs. Percival. Anyway, if you only want to disregard contributions of infinite worth, then that will not hurt my argument. If you give Matthew credit for something and none to Hector for another, identical action because his contribution cannot be quantified, you can do the same for Nino.

That really depends on tier list standards. If the list doesn't assume we're going to 28x already, then sure, Nino can be given credit for it. However, I don't think arguments like that are good in a tier list setting and would much prefer that it's previously defined which sidequests we do and don't go to before deciding any character placements based on them. The ones I'd leave out are 19xx for sure, and maybe 32x. But in any case, if it's decided that we're going to 28x anyway, Nino getting us there is simply a means to an end like Hector seizing and she would get no credit for it.

[GreatEclipse]

Except we are not going to 28x without Nino. I could say "We are going to get the Silver Card anyway", but that does not change the fact that you need Matthew to do it.

Edited March 26, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Life]

Are we ranking Nino the person or Nino the unit? Nino the person gets us all the shit that you mentioned earlier. Nino the unit does not.

Whether we go to 28x has nothing to do with Nino's ability as it is a story driven event. Nino cannot claim all of those items as a boon for Funds because she hasn't done anything unit-wise to deserve it. It's like crediting the entire of chapter 13x and its by-products to whoever visits the village in 13. Is that truly fair?

[GreatEclipse]

If something has an impact on how you play the game, it is not a pure story event. It certainly has an impact on how you play chapter 28. The difference with 13x is that anyone can visit that village. If anyone could steal the Silver Card, Matthew would not be at the top of the list. In cases like 10B in FE6 (Only Ward or Lott can get you a Speedwings and additional Swordrever), yes, it is completely fair.

[CATS]

And the problem with that is...? The point of a tier list is discussion. If people don't like where certain arguments take them (in this case, mostly killing discussion), it makes sense to disregard them.

If this is the case, then I demand that the tier list topic acknowledge its nature and stop pretending to be objective, or indeed meaningful or indicative of anything at all other than what the majority opinion likes or dislikes. Please change the title from "S Rank Tier List for FE7" to "Serenes Forest Collective Personal Opinions for FE7, Which Somewhat Resembles A S Rank Tier List for FE7." Or maybe "S Rank Tier List for FE7, Except In The Ways That It's Not."

[Florete]

Except we are not going to 28x without Nino. I could say "We are going to get the Silver Card anyway", but that does not change the fact that you need Matthew to do it.

Items and entire maps are not exactly in the same vein here.

But honestly, it feels like you're just trying to be a pain right now. Is it so hard to accept that not everything will be 100% consistent based on the fact that everyone looks at the game in a different way?

If this is the case, then I demand that the tier list topic acknowledge its nature and stop pretending to be objective, or indeed meaningful or indicative of anything at all other than what the majority opinion likes or dislikes. Please change the title from "S Rank Tier List for FE7" to "Serenes Forest Collective Personal Opinions for FE7, Which Somewhat Resembles A S Rank Tier List for FE7." Or maybe "S Rank Tier List for FE7, Except In The Ways That It's Not."

What the fuck? Are you serious?

Edited March 26, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[GreatEclipse]

Items and entire maps are not exactly in the same vein here.

How are they not? The magnitude may be different, but the principle is the same. All contributions are simply a means to an end. You can dismiss anything by saying "I was going to do that anyway".

But honestly, it feels like you're just trying to be a pain right now. Is it so hard to accept that not everything will be 100% consistent based on the fact that everyone looks at the game in a different way?

I am like Socrates. I merely go where the argument takes me.

[CATS]

What the fuck? Are you serious?

That depends. Are you serious when you say that "it kills discussion" is a legitimate reason to ignore or disregard an argument? If so, then yes, I'm quite serious. Naturally my proposal falls into the very trap that it is protesting, of course; because no one will like what I've said, it will be ignored and likely ridiculed. But still, if you're willing to be inconsistent because you just don't like this point or that point, then that's what I think about that.

Also take note that "it kills discussion" is frequently used as a cover-up reason for the actual reason that an argument is being ignored; which is purely the fact that it's unconventional and/or generally disliked. Were this argument allowed, would it actually kill discussion of Nino's position? No; in fact it would foster additional discussion of Nino's position. People would have to figure out where she should go with this new point in mind, and even if her new position is extremely obvious, it still couldn't be any less of a discussion than the status quo (which is, of course, zero discussion about Nino and a general acceptance of her current position).

Additionally, take note that "it kills discussion" tends to be applied extremely inconsistently in cases like these. Comparing Raven to Bartre with their actual stats certainly kills discussion; Raven wins, and it's really obvious, nothing to discuss. Yet this is commonly accepted and no one has a problem with it. When someone suddenly finds an argument which places Nino into a similar position as Raven in that match-up, however, it can safely be disregarded because "it kills discussion."