S Rank Tier List for FE7

[K3Nyy]

This discussion isn't going anywhere. ><"

[Dat Nick]

You only just now figured that out?

[dondon151]

That seems to be the general trend these days. I was only reinforcing it.

[Rewjeo]

I completely understood what it meant, Narga. But somehow, at least as it seems to me, despite neutral state =!= neutral utility, somehow it was canceling out all his positives, but not his negatives. If his neutral state is to give us access to the convoy, then isn't his neutral state also to need to be protected? And then Hector's neutral state is to be on the field, seize, go into combat, etc. So he's also 100% neutral.

Not only that, but it was based partially on that you have access to your convoy no matter what in OTHER games. Other games that make no impact on this game. I don't care about FE8's convoy, I care about what FE7's convoy access does to help us. And in order to have access to the convoy, we have to protect it. But then, if it isn't worth it, we can just let him die.

Admittedly, it was an interesting way to look at it, but I really don't like it as it makes it possible to cancel out someone's positives for more than one chapter where you have to choose to deploy them.

[Narga_Rocks]

I completely understood what it meant, Narga. But somehow, at least as it seems to me, despite neutral state =!= neutral utility, somehow it was canceling out all his positives, but not his negatives. If his neutral state is to give us access to the convoy, then isn't his neutral state also to need to be protected? And then Hector's neutral state is to be on the field, seize, go into combat, etc. So he's also 100% neutral.

How do you figure this is how it works? We are talking default. Hector is auto-deployed. Merlinus is there and we have access to the convoy. That's the default. Nothing else. Not being protected, not seizing, combat, etc. Those are all things you do that go beyond the default. You have to protect him, therefore he is negative. To keep access to the convoy you must protect him. If you don't, you lose what you should have anyway. All he is by his very nature is negative. Even moving the cursor to say "no" would be a negative because it is a change we make and it leaves us worse off.

[Dat Nick]

You don't HAVE to protect him. You only have to do so in chapters where he is in danger (in some this isn't the case) or when you actually need the convoy functions because Matthew's inventory is overloaded or something.

[CATS]

All he is by his very nature is negative. Even moving the cursor to say "no" would be a negative because it is a change we make and it leaves us worse off.

So...if you deploy him, he's negative, and if you don't deploy him, he's negative? I'm confused.

Your argument sounds like it boils down to just saying "Merlinus doesn't take any actions, and a unit only gets credits for actions they take," since you're refusing to credit him for anything except needing protection. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not a new take on the situation, either. It's similar to the attitude that Life had originally.

You keep saying "You lose what you should have anyways," but I don't see what the status of the convoy in other games has to do with anything. Should I penalize FE6 Marcus because he's a worse Jeigan than FE7 Marcus and Seth?

[Florete]

You keep saying "You lose what you should have anyways," but I don't see what the status of the convoy in other games has to do with anything. Should I penalize FE6 Marcus because he's a worse Jeigan than FE7 Marcus and Seth?

The post you quoted didn't have any mentions of other games. By default, Merlinus is on the map and we get convoy access. That's how it is in this game regardless of any other games, and I'm pretty sure that's what Narga was saying.

[CATS]

The post you quoted didn't have any mentions of other games. By default, Merlinus is on the map and we get convoy access. That's how it is in this game regardless of any other games, and I'm pretty sure that's what Narga was saying.

It did have mention of other games, and I did quote the statement where the reference was made. "You lose what you should have anyways"--Referring to the fact that you don't have to protect a ULE in order to have the "Send to Convoy" option available in other games. In one of his posts on the last page, Narga said it more explicitly: "In every other game you don't have to do anything to maintain access to the convoy. Therefore Merlinus is negative because you have to do something to get what you'd get in other games anyway."

[Florete]

It did have mention of other games, and I did quote the statement where the reference was made. "You lose what you should have anyways"--Referring to the fact that you don't have to protect a ULE in order to have the "Send to Convoy" option available in other games. In one of his posts on the last page, Narga said it more explicitly: "In every other game you don't have to do anything to maintain access to the convoy. Therefore Merlinus is negative because you have to do something to get what you'd get in other games anyway."

Yes, he said it in other posts, but not in that last one because it isn't actually relevant. Read that post again and see if you find any direct mention of other games. You won't find one because it isn't there. He isn't saying Merlinus is negative because he's a worse convoy than those in other games, he's saying Merlinus is a negative because in this game alone his existence forces you to protect something you're getting by default without offering anything else (which is how Hector avoids this punishment; he is good at both fighting and living). It has absolutely nothing to do with other games' convoys.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[CATS]

Yes, he said it in other posts, but not in that last one because it isn't actually relevant. Read that post again and see if you find any direct mention of other games. You won't find one because it isn't there. He isn't saying Merlinus is negative because he's a worse convoy than those in other games, he's saying Merlinus is a negative because in this game alone his existence forces you to protect something you're getting by default without offering anything else (which is how Hector avoids this punishment; he is good at both fighting and living). It has absolutely nothing to do with other games' convoys.

I realize that his argument isn't entirely based on the status of the convoy in other games. Notice that, similarly, my post wasn't spent only pointing out that other games should have no relevance.

[Florete]

I realize that his argument isn't entirely based on the status of the convoy in other games. Notice that, similarly, my post wasn't spent only pointing out that other games should have no relevance.

I know. That was just the part I had a problem with.

[Rewjeo]

We don't have access to the convoy by default. We have to choose to have access to it. Therefor, it is not default.

[Narga_Rocks]

We don't have access to the convoy by default. We have to choose to have access to it. Therefor, it is not default.

Except you have to choose to not have it. It defaults to yes. Then you have to go and move the cursor all the way to "no" to get rid of it.

Tell me, please, what is the default?

It is clearly not "not having" the convoy. Why? Because you must select no. You say you have to choose to have access to it, therefore it is not "had" by default. Now, since for the life of me I can't find a third option (can you half-have the convoy?) it seems to me you have to assume that either having or not having is the default. Now, notice how the default selection is to have it. Well, it appears that you must do more in order to not have it. You have to make more changes. Whatever requires more actions is clearly not the default. Therefore, by process of elimination what I'm left with is that having the convoy is the default.

Once you have eliminated the impossible (not having the convoy = default) whatever remains, no matter how improbable, or in this case no matter how incomprehensible (having the convoy = default), must be true.

p.s. does anybody have any actual ideas for changes to make to characters' positions on the actual tier list, or must we continue to go over this Merlinus stuff? What about the last proposals from Life Admiral? I mean, surely with all this derailment there must have been some character position alteration proposal that went unnoticed.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[frat_tastic]

I don't really get the point of the "default" argument. By default, we can't use like, a really large majority of any of our units (including Top tiers like Raven and Ninils) since selecting them makes us "change" something. I don't really see the point in this default argument of yours.

You say that we have to protect Merlinus in order to keep what we "should have anyway", and then spin this to make Merlinus a negative. Why should we have this anyway? I don't understand how saying that we should have Merlinus anyway, this protecting him is bad, makes any sense. We have to protect units like Serra and Priscilla so that they don't die and we have access to healing, which we should have anyway.

It could very well be I am simply misunderstanding the point you are trying to make though, so if you think I am, please feel free to explain it to me.

[dondon151]

The fundamental difference in the principle of "default-ness" between Merlinus and other units is that Merlinus gets his own separate selection prompt at the beginning of the chapter.

Imagine for a minute that the message that prompts the player at the beginning of each chapter is "deploy convoy?" instead of "deploy Merlinus?" and that the convoy had all of the properties of Merlinus, i.e. stats and a map position, but not a name nor a face. The player would expect to have full convoy privileges at the beginning of every map. Imagine also for another minute that instead of there being a message that prompts the player to deploy the convoy at the beginning of each chapter, that the convoy would always be present by default. Would you tier the convoy under either of these circumstances? I'm betting that you would just for the sake of spiting my argument. But I wouldn't, to be explained later.

Now, imagine for yet another minute that instead of the convoy having stats and a map position, that the convoy only has a map position. This is quite analogous to the convoy in FE5. Now we're approaching ULE territory. Will we still tier the convoy? After all, the convoy map access in FE5 is basically just like a shop or a village.

The game gives the player full access to the convoy by default. You can nitpick this all you want by saying that the player isn't obligated to deploy Merlinus, but the game does give the player the convoy itself for free, and offers the option to have full access to the convoy for free. Merlinus's map sprite is simply the means through which the player obtains this full access. This is no different from FE4, FE5, FE8, and FEDS, where the player gets the convoy access for free, no strings attached. Or, not quite. The FE7 convoy can get attacked, and the main deal with this is that in some cases (like rout maps), Merlinus can be responsible for hindering the completion of the chapter. Which is part of the reason why he can be considered a negative.

As for "default-ness" applied to other units, keep in mind that the state of being "default" is closely related to the state of being free of cost. Units that are selected by default on the unit select screen might not be optimal, and are eschewed for better ones. But since Merlinus gets his own deployment prompt, do we know if he is meant to be deployed or not to be deployed? Is there a reason why not being deployed is a preferable "default" state to being deployed, other than for personal convenience?

This ambiguity is why Merlinus is unsuitable for tiering, IMO.

Edited April 10, 2010 by dondon151

[Rewjeo]

Having the convoy is not the default. We don't have it before Merlinus joins, so it's not as if him joining actually makes it harder to use the convoy. That's how I come to the conclusion that having the convoy is not the default. However, the default IS to deploy Merlinus.

Also, this discussion makes me wonder: is Oswin-unithe'skickingoftheteam better than Hector, seeing as Hector has no cost?

[Life]

You know, I'm starting to think that this "conversation" isn't about Merlinus anymore. I think it's still going on because everyone here wants to argue for the sake of arguing.

[Colonel M]

Should Dart really be under Vaida? I get that Dart isn't likely promoting (without the penalty of Funds Rank, though to be fair you could adjust to get it going), but he at least provides the padding to EXP rank and, over time, is decent in combat. Vaida really doesn't do much aside from being a ferrybot in Victory or Death since she has to deal with Archers and Snipers in Sands of Time, then taking her to Final is pretty bad idea.

[Interceptor]

You know, I'm starting to think that this "conversation" isn't about Merlinus anymore. I think it's still going on because everyone here wants to argue for the sake of arguing.

That's all that Merlinus was about to begin with, so I'd like to officially welcome you to mid-March 2010.

[Rewjeo]

The convoy's default is to not be there- that's why we don't have access to it before Merlinus. Merlinus's default state is to be deployed.

[dondon151]

The convoy's default is to not be there- that's why we don't have access to it before Merlinus. Merlinus's default state is to be deployed.

This is a flimsy argument. The game forces you to have a convoy past a certain chapter. I could just as easily assert that the default state of the convoy is to exist because the player doesn't have a choice in the matter.

[Narga_Rocks]

The convoy's default is to not be there- that's why we don't have access to it before Merlinus. Merlinus's default state is to be deployed.

so, the default is to not have the convoy? That's why you don't have one until Merlinus shows up? Therefore Merlinus gets credit for the convoy?

The default is to not have Guy's killing edge. That's why you don't have one until Guy shows up. Therefore Guy gets credit for it.

The default is to not have Lyn's white/blue gem. That's why you don't have one until Lyn shows up. Therefore Lyn gets credit for it.

The default is to not have Fiora's Axereaver. That's why you don't have one until Fiora shows up. Therefore Fiora gets credit for it.

so my question is why is merlinus being treated differently from everyone else? Are we trying to find things to give him credit for just to tier him? If you insist on wanting to tier Merlinus because he's "just another unit" rather than a convoy with a face and stats and supports, then why don't we treat him like "just another unit"? The other units don't and shouldn't get credit for what they bring with them when they show up, so why should Merlinus?

Edited April 10, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

And it's all this back-and-forth arguing that leads me to believe we just leave Merlinus untiered.

[Narga_Rocks]

And it's all this back-and-forth arguing that leads me to believe we just leave Merlinus untiered.

Colonel M tried that months ago and got accused of being a tyrant. Apparently arguing > making a decision and sticking with it. Oh well.