S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Narga_Rocks]

Wouldn't you have to split credit between Nino and Jaffar, if you want to take this argument as far as it can go? You can't let him die and still get there.

It seems easier to separate out of chapter things (like a unit needing to be recruited to go to another chapter) since that isn't part of what they do on the field. Now, seizing vs. stealing the silver card is a little more difficult to separate, but Hector's seizing is because he was the lord. Change his class, allow others to change their class, whatever, he's still the dude. You have only one thief, and Matthew gets credit for what he can do. If you could change his class and the others, he wouldn't get credit because another unit could do it instead. It is separating a "lord" function from a "unit" function, which I think is fair. Hector the lord seizes, Hector the unit goes around and kills stuff without dying. Matthew the unit steals stuff.

[GreatEclipse]

The only requirement with Jaffar is that he stays alive while a green unit. Even if you had control over him, you can keep someone alive without making them take any action commands. Visiting 28x requires you give a command exclusive to Nino.

Why a unit can do something means nothing. If you can do something meaningful to achieving an S rank, you get credit for it. The only argument I can see for disregarding both seizing and being required to kill the boss in chapter 11 is that they have infinite worth. You can give an estimate for how much the Silver Card adds to your assets, and tier Matthew based on that objective analysis. The number of turns Hector saves you is infinite, so you need to either ignore it or essentially remove him from the list for being infinity better than everyone else.

Edited March 26, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Narga_Rocks]

The only requirement with Jaffar is that he stays alive while a green unit. Even if you had control over him, you can keep someone alive without making them take any action commands. Visiting 28x requires you give a command exclusive to Nino.

Why a unit can do something means nothing. If you can do something meaningful to achieving an S rank, you get credit for it. The only argument I can see for disregarding both seizing and being required to kill the boss in chapter 11 is that they have infinite worth. You can give an estimate for how much the Silver Card adds to your assets, and tier Matthew based on that objective analysis. The number of turns Hector saves you is infinite, so you need to either ignore it or essentially remove him from the list for being infinity better than everyone else.

Or stick him in the "Infinite Worth Tier". RD becomes funny that way, though, given the number of units that end up there. Laura, Micaiah, BK has near-infinite worth, Lucia, Geoffrey, Ike, Ranulf. That would be fun.

You could carry her over. Wouldn't she only require two button pushes? Besides, convos are Character contributions, rather than unit contributions. They could have chosen anybody to talk to him. Besides, we start getting chains here because in order for Nino to talk to him, you need either Hector or Lyn to talk to her. And so they each get half credit for it as well. Or Hector gets more than that, given Lyn may not be around.

[Dat Nick]

Matthew is not credited for recruiting Guy, because I do not need to give Matthew a single level to recruit Guy.

Serra is not credited for recruiting Erk, because I do not need to give Serra a single level to recruit Erk.

Dart is not credited for recruiting Geitz, because I do not need to give Dart a single level to recruit Geitz.

I do not need to use Nino in any way, shape, or form to get to 28x. All I have to do is recruit her, which is what I'm going to do if I want Jaffar anyway.

So why the fuck should Nino be any different from recruiting units? It doesn't matter if you use her or not, you'll go to 28x if you recruit her.

Oh, and right. I was going to respond to Narga's post and I forgot.

The convoy function works in a different way (you don't have to have fe6 Merlinus on the field to send stuff to him). He gains exp differently.

FE7 Merlinus never has an excuse to NOT be on the field, so this isn't relevant.

Merlinus's EXP is worthless in either game (Maybe not at super high levels in FE7, where he'll actually gain levels) so that isn't relevant either.

He moves differently.

No, he doesn't. When FE7 Merlinus moves, he moves exactly the same way FE6 Merlinus does. Of course, FE7 Merlinus can't move for about 3/4th the game, which is probably what you meant, but that was kind of bad wording.

Apparently his own personal inventory functions differently.

Merlinus actually using items is stupid. Well okay, maybe not if you need to heal him really badly and it's a vulnerary or something. Either way, if Merlinus has items in his inventory, it's to trade with people. If you can trade, you can Merch since you need to be adjacent either way. I'm sure you understand how Merch completely obsoletes Trading, so the only thing this means is that one Merlinus can heal himself and the other can't.

You no longer determine whether or not to deploy him in the same way.

You're over-analyzing the issue. One takes up a unit slot, the other one doesn't. It doesn't matter how he's deployed as long as he gets there.

Edited March 26, 2010 by s Portsman

[GreatEclipse]

Or stick him in the "Infinite Worth Tier". RD becomes funny that way, though, given the number of units that end up there. Laura, Micaiah, BK has near-infinite worth, Lucia, Geoffrey, Ike, Ranulf. That would be fun.

I have not played FE10, but if that is the case, sure. How fun it would be means nothing on a list that claims to be objective and worth taking seriously. We could assume lower end units get stat boosters for free if it would make discussion more interesting.

You could carry her over. Wouldn't she only require two button pushes? Besides, convos are Character contributions, rather than unit contributions. They could have chosen anybody to talk to him. Besides, we start getting chains here because in order for Nino to talk to him, you need either Hector or Lyn to talk to her. And so they each get half credit for it as well. Or Hector gets more than that, given Lyn may not be around.

I doubt Matthew is going through all those Armors by himself in 19x so he can grab what he needs. Note that I am not giving Nino credit for recruiting Jaffar, only his inventory. I think she should if we want to be consistent, but that opens up another can of worms I would rather save for another time. You would also need to disregard the requirements for recruiting Nino. I will repeat, if it has an impact on how you play a chapter, it is not a pure story event

I never need to give Chad a single level to get everything he can get me. Chad for rock bottom.

Edited March 26, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Dat Nick]

False, you need her to talk to Jaffar, an action only she can take.

please read my posts kthx

I just explained to you a whole bunch of characters that don't get credit for recruiting others. Why is Nino any different? She's not. I don't have to seriously use her as a unit to get to 28x, I just have to keep her alive, move her to Jaffar, and hit Talk. I have to do the exact same thing when Serra recruits Erk, nobody ever brings that up in Serra vs Priscilla.

[Narga_Rocks]

please read my posts kthx

I just explained to you a whole bunch of characters that don't get credit for recruiting others. Why is Nino any different? She's not. I don't have to seriously use her as a unit to get to 28x, I just have to keep her alive, move her to Jaffar, and hit Talk. I have to do the exact same thing when Serra recruits Erk, nobody ever brings that up in Serra vs Priscilla.

But they are trying to show a parallel between the Nino thing and Matthew and the silver card.

I'm not sure how well that parallel is being refuted. If it can't be, then the idea is that maybe those units should get credit for the recruiting or that Matthew shouldn't get his credit.

Personally, I think he should get credit and they shouldn't, but that's just because they seem fundamentally different, to me.

[dondon151]

I don't get why attributing the items in 28x to Nino is such a big deal anyway. You get more funds, but you also tack on that chapter's funds requirement, so it cancels out for the most part.

[GreatEclipse]

Yeah, I only skimmed your post and did not catch that. The point is the same. We give units credit for contributions they can make at base level or without being permanent team members all the time.

I don't get why attributing the items in 28x to Nino is such a big deal anyway. You get more funds, but you also tack on that chapter's funds requirement, so it cancels out for the most part.

Good point, but you only need 80% of the requirement, so you still come out with an overall gain. Some of that stuff has practical use beyond its weight in gold as well. She would still get credit for however many turns you fall below 28, which in all fairness is probably more than anything Marcus or Raven save on their own merits.

Edited March 26, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't get why attributing the items in 28x to Nino is such a big deal anyway. You get more funds, but you also tack on that chapter's funds requirement, so it cancels out for the most part.

You could really go either way.

This would open up what, though? I'm not even sure. Certainly, there is a valid argument that units could get credit for the inventories of those they recruit (and in this case allowing you to even go to a chapter). However, for chains like Roy recruits sue recruits shin, who gets the credit for shin's item(s)? (Can't give an example for this game due to lack of knowledge)

[Florete]

But they are trying to show a parallel between the Nino thing and Matthew and the silver card.

I'm not sure how well that parallel is being refuted. If it can't be, then the idea is that maybe those units should get credit for the recruiting or that Matthew shouldn't get his credit.

Personally, I think he should get credit and they shouldn't, but that's just because they seem fundamentally different, to me.

I personally liked the unit vs. character argument. I just haven't been posting because I'm so damn sick of these discussions. They feel so pointless and too easily avoidable.

[GreatEclipse]

That argument does not work because it is not a pure story event. There is a rationalization for why only Nino can talk to him. There is a rationalization for why Matthew is a Thief. None of that matters when you actually play the chapter. Throwing out the benefits of what Nino does because is also produces a brief conversation would also invalidate supports. Kent and Sain would likely not support each other if they had a different role in the story.

Checked this website, 28x has a funds requirement of 94K. You need 80% of that, so 72.2K. You get 91.5 from what I listed, so 19.3K - the expenses of the chapter. Looks like a good deal to me.

Edited March 26, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Dat Nick]

In regards to the silver card, several people think Matthew gets too much credit for it.

[GreatEclipse]

Are you one of them? The only person I know is Inui, and find his stance inconsistent. You can give credit, or not. Only giving partial credit for something exclusive to him is nonsensical.

Edited March 26, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[Mekkah]

What does Merlinus do for the Ranks that makes him better than... Karla, for instance? I'm choosing Karla because she's at the bottom of the list and generally takes an arm and a leg to utilize properly in attempting an S Rank run.

There is nothing that Merlinus does to help the ranks more than Karla (tanking Bolting shots for 0 Exp isn't helping the ranks more than killing and gaining Exp, no matter how you want to swing it). Furthermore, none of us can agree on whether he's a proper unit or not, never mind helping the ranks.

If he gets on, he should be at the bottom of the list. Karla might be the most negative of everyone towards the ranks but everything she does is still beneficial in some way. Merlinus doesn't do anything for the ranks at all.

Karla is being treated as negative utility because of her recruitment cost outweighing or canceling any benefits she has (EXP rank or otherwise). Merlinus has no such negative, so even if you wanted to place him extremely low, he should be above Karla. That, or we stop using her recruitment cost against her and put Karla above Nino.

[Life]

Karla is being treated as negative utility because of her recruitment cost outweighing or canceling any benefits she has (EXP rank or otherwise). Merlinus has no such negative, so even if you wanted to place him extremely low, he should be above Karla. That, or we stop using her recruitment cost against her and put Karla above Nino.

I don't know, I'm torn on this issue. We can judge Karla and Wallace fairly because of what they do once they join or we can say that we have to do X, Y and Z just to get them when X, Y and Z are all negatives.

If something has an impact on how you play the game, it is not a pure story event. It certainly has an impact on how you play chapter 28. The difference with 13x is that anyone can visit that village. If anyone could steal the Silver Card, Matthew would not be at the top of the list. In cases like 10B in FE6 (Only Ward or Lott can get you a Speedwings and additional Swordrever), yes, it is completely fair.

Then Matthew gains credit for Guy's work, Serra for Erk, Erk for Prissy, Prissy for Raven, Raven for Lucius (roundabout way of saying that Serra gets credit for Lucius's work because without Serra, Lucius probably doesn't get recruited), Dart for Geitz, Florina for Fiora and Hector/Lyn for Hawkeye, Vaida, Heath, Legault, Karel and Harken (plus Eli, Marcus, Lowen, Isadora and Oswin).

Why? Because those aren't "pure story driven events". What happens to the story if I don't recruit any of the above? Nothing. The biggest one is that Serra would get credited for Lucius' work (or Prissy because Erk can only be recruited by one of the two) which means that Raven's probably not going to be in Top anymore thanks to 3 or so units who get credit for his work.

Only Matthew can get you Guy just like only Nino can get you Jaffar (getting Jaffar also goes to 28x but one is a product of the other because 28x is still optional). This is the problem with ranking CHARACTERS and not UNITS. Which you don't seem to understand.

Matthew the thief gets you the Silver Card. If he was a fighter, he wouldn't be able to steal it. But he'd still be able to recruit Guy because that's Matthew the character's job.

[Inui]

I'm lovin' every post made by frat and GE, lol. I have nothing much to contribute outside of just agreeing with them, though.

[CATS]

Merlinus junk.

But their justification for him being a unit wouldn't actually be true if he was better at his job. If he gets tiered, I'd like to see the ones that do the job better be on their respective lists and higher than he ends up on this one.

How can you be sure of that, with regards to your first statement here? Apparently FE6 Merlinus is better at his job than FE7 Merlinus and he is indeed tiered. And indeed, if someone wants other lists to be consistent, they are free to go into the other lists and argue that whatever characters should be tiered.

Inui, back when this came up in the other topic. I think there were others, but I can't remember for certain and can't be bothered to look it up. If I'm wrong about the numbers, sorry.

Oh, Inui? Meh, I just didn't read all of the arguments or didn't remember all of them, then. I remember people (including me) saying "upper mid" more than anything else.

I'm sure he is quite serious about certain points. Like, people are making an arbitrary line to determine what makes a unit. A more reasonable definition would not include Merlinus, and you must stretch it to include him. If you can stretch it to include him, why not stretch it to include other ULEs? As for his personal preference, I think he's made it abundantly clear that his preference is to not tier Merlinus (at least the fe7 version) and to not tier the other ULEs. But yeah, I'm certain that he is finding the whole thing most entertaining and while I can't say that he wouldn't be doing this otherwise, I'm sure it helps.

He could ask why the definition isn't stretched to include all "ULEs," and the response would be because of the many and obvious differences that they have compared to Merlinus. Given that the line at which a "unit" is defined must be inherently arbitrary, I don't really see any reason for the line of thought to continue any further than that, except for Interceptor to simply state that he disagrees (which, as you've noted, he's made more than clear). I agree that he probably thinks it's funny and that's likely part of his motivation for continuing the argument so stubbornly (though once again, he will likely claim otherwise if he sees this post).

Well, given we know the exp hog argument is not a good one, I think the logical conclusion of this dilemma would not be "Marcus should go down because of where Seth is on his list", but rather, "Seth should go up because of where Marcus is on his list."

That's my point. Indicating that another tier list does not use the logic in question is a poor counter-argument to anything. That could just as easily mean that the other tier list also needs to be changed as a result of the new argument being presented in the local tier list.

There is nothing that Merlinus does to help the ranks more than Karla (tanking Bolting shots for 0 Exp isn't helping the ranks more than killing and gaining Exp, no matter how you want to swing it). Furthermore, none of us can agree on whether he's a proper unit or not, never mind helping the ranks.

If he gets on, he should be at the bottom of the list. Karla might be the most negative of everyone towards the ranks but everything she does is still beneficial in some way. Merlinus doesn't do anything for the ranks at all.

I disagree. Once again you're assuming that Merlinus should receive no credit whatsoever for the fact that his presence allows your units to send junk to the convoy in mid-battle.

---

Other junk.

Wouldn't you have to split credit between Nino and Jaffar, if you want to take this argument as far as it can go? You can't let him die and still get there.

IIRC units are not given credit for actions they take as NPCs, and since Jaffar is a green unit for all of BBD, I think you could conceivably argue that his "contribution" towards getting 28x falls under this provision.

It is separating a "lord" function from a "unit" function, which I think is fair. Hector the lord seizes, Hector the unit goes around and kills stuff without dying. Matthew the unit steals stuff.

Since storyline events have no relevance, I don't think the fact that Hector is the main character should have any relevance. In a tier list that says storyline stuff doesn't matter, it should be assumed that the player skips all conversations and plot/character development scenes without giving them even a cursory glance.

The player thus has no idea that Hector is the main character of the story nor would he care even if he was aware of it. All he sees is that Hector is forced in every chapter, and that Hector must seize the throne in order to progress. He would likely come to the conclusion that this ability is a result of Hector's specific Lord class, in the same way that Matthew's ability to Steal is a result of his Thief class. The concept of Hector as the "main lord" would be foreign to him.

Your argument doesn't seem to discard Hector's ability because storyline reasons are irrelevant; rather, it seems to actively use storyline reasons as a justification for discarding Hector's ability. I don't see how your reasoning doesn't qualify as a storyline-based argument.

You could carry her over. Wouldn't she only require two button pushes? Besides, convos are Character contributions, rather than unit contributions. They could have chosen anybody to talk to him.

If a unit's traits can be disregarded because they are unique to the unit in question, then I say that Farina should be tiered as if she does not cost you 20,000 gold in order to be recruited, as that aspect of her is a result of her Character rather than her status as a Unit, given that other pegasus knights clearly do not have this trait. I also say that Eliwood's Rapier should not be considered when doing comparisons, as it is a Character trait rather than a Unit trait.

Likewise, the fact that the developers could've done it differently has no relevance. They could've done everything differently. They could've had Bartre join with 10 base Spd and Raven with 1 base Spd.

Then Matthew gains credit for Guy's work, Serra for Erk, Erk for Prissy, Prissy for Raven, Raven for Lucius (roundabout way of saying that Serra gets credit for Lucius's work because without Serra, Lucius probably doesn't get recruited), Dart for Geitz, Florina for Fiora and Hector/Lyn for Hawkeye, Vaida, Heath, Legault, Karel and Harken (plus Eli, Marcus, Lowen, Isadora and Oswin).

As I recall, dondon actually had a logical argument against the validity of recruitment-performance arguments (i.e. arguing that Priscilla > all because she recruits Raven and therefore gets credit for his performance). It had to do with the GDP of the tier list or something like that. I didn't really understand it, but it wasn't based on "it kills discussion!" or on pure personal dislike of the argument being proposed, so it would be worth looking into.

Also, the full implications of the line of logic posed can be dealt with later. What matters right now is simply determining the validity of the logic. The implications might make the argument seem distasteful, because you would rather not deal with the implications that come with it, but they do not disprove the argument or make it an invalid one, and thus they are not legitimate grounds for ignoring or disregarding the argument.

[Life]

As I recall, dondon actually had a logical argument against the validity of recruitment-performance arguments (i.e. arguing that Priscilla > all because she recruits Raven and therefore gets credit for his performance). It had to do with the GDP of the tier list or something like that. I didn't really understand it, but it wasn't based on "it kills discussion!" or on pure personal dislike of the argument being proposed, so it would be worth looking into.

Also, the full implications of the line of logic posed can be dealt with later. What matters right now is simply determining the validity of the logic. The implications might make the argument seem distasteful, because you would rather not deal with the implications that come with it, but they do not disprove the argument or make it an invalid one, and thus they are not legitimate grounds for ignoring or disregarding the argument.

I think I remember that argument that Dondon made. I'll see if I can dig it up sometime.

The reason why I bring up all of these cases is because they amount to the same thing. We're crediting Nino for her personality as that is why she recruits Jaffar and unlocks 28x. If Nino gets credit for all of that, then it seems illogical to deny Prissy's personality as the reason to why Raven joins. It's not so that I don't have to deal with them. I'm not saying "look at this clusterfuck of stuff that moving Nino up by so much does". I'm saying "if we give Nino credit for being Jaffar's love interest and recruiting him (because that's the only way you go to 28x), then it seems hypocritical of us to deny the fact that only Prissy can recruit Raven and is indirectly responsible for his actions". Either we stay constant with ranking personalities or we don't. I have no problem with doing this as I can just argue for Lyn to go up since she can recruit people like Heath, Legault and Rath who are beneficial for different reasons.

[Narga_Rocks]

IIRC units are not given credit for actions they take as NPCs, and since Jaffar is a green unit for all of BBD, I think you could conceivably argue that his "contribution" towards getting 28x falls under this provision.

That works.

Since storyline events have no relevance, I don't think the fact that Hector is the main character should have any relevance. In a tier list that says storyline stuff doesn't matter, it should be assumed that the player skips all conversations and plot/character development scenes without giving them even a cursory glance.

The player thus has no idea that Hector is the main character of the story nor would he care even if he was aware of it. All he sees is that Hector is forced in every chapter, and that Hector must seize the throne in order to progress. He would likely come to the conclusion that this ability is a result of Hector's specific Lord class, in the same way that Matthew's ability to Steal is a result of his Thief class. The concept of Hector as the "main lord" would be foreign to him.

Your argument doesn't seem to discard Hector's ability because storyline reasons are irrelevant; rather, it seems to actively use storyline reasons as a justification for discarding Hector's ability. I don't see how your reasoning doesn't qualify as a storyline-based argument.

Wha? The entire thing is that the storyline is the reason for rejecting the seizing. It's a storyline-based argument, I suppose, but it is there to reject a storyline event. You could attribute seizing to his class, maybe, except his class is simply "Lord" until promotion, and Eliwood and Lyn have the same class but can't seize.

If a unit's traits can be disregarded because they are unique to the unit in question, then I say that Farina should be tiered as if she does not cost you 20,000 gold in order to be recruited, as that aspect of her is a result of her Character rather than her status as a Unit, given that other pegasus knights clearly do not have this trait. I also say that Eliwood's Rapier should not be considered when doing comparisons, as it is a Character trait rather than a Unit trait.

I don't really see the parallel. If Farina automatically appeared and 10000 of your money disappeared or random items disappeared if you didn't have the 10000, then sure I'd say it can be disregarded. That would be storyline. But it isn't. Also, personal weapons are still items that a character can use during battle, so it is pretty direct. Now, if another character gives it to him through a convo or something, I wouldn't give them credit. Like Ethlin giving Cuan his holy weapon. Ethlin probably shouldn't get credit for that.

Likewise, the fact that the developers could've done it differently has no relevance. They could've done everything differently. They could've had Bartre join with 10 base Spd and Raven with 1 base Spd.

True, but that is specifically stat based. I'd like to think the tier list would focus on their contribution through stats and that type of thing. Their move, class, bases, growths, rescuing ability, usable weapons/items, that type of thing, rather than the conversations they could have.

As I recall, dondon actually had a logical argument against the validity of recruitment-performance arguments (i.e. arguing that Priscilla > all because she recruits Raven and therefore gets credit for his performance). It had to do with the GDP of the tier list or something like that. I didn't really understand it, but it wasn't based on "it kills discussion!" or on pure personal dislike of the argument being proposed, so it would be worth looking into.

Yeah, but that doesn't tell us anything about Nino and getting to the Gaiden chapter, so there is still that to deal with. The recruitment thing is largely because character contributions and item contributions should only be counted once. And since silver card is otherwise not counted, Matthew is the only logical candidate to take credit for it.

But then, dondon is the guy saying

I don't get why attributing the items in 28x to Nino is such a big deal anyway. You get more funds, but you also tack on that chapter's funds requirement, so it cancels out for the most part.

so he's at least okay with it.

As for GreatEclipse and giving her credit for turns, what do you think of that? You still need all your other units helping out there to get under 10, but she gives you the chance.

[CATS]

The reason why I bring up all of these cases is because they amount to the same thing. We're crediting Nino for her personality as that is why she recruits Jaffar and unlocks 28x. If Nino gets credit for all of that, then it seems illogical to deny Prissy's personality as the reason to why Raven joins. It's not so that I don't have to deal with them. I'm not saying "look at this clusterfuck of stuff that moving Nino up by so much does". I'm saying "if we give Nino credit for being Jaffar's love interest and recruiting him (because that's the only way you go to 28x), then it seems hypocritical of us to deny the fact that only Prissy can recruit Raven and is indirectly responsible for his actions". Either we stay constant with ranking personalities or we don't. I have no problem with doing this as I can just argue for Lyn to go up since she can recruit people like Heath, Legault and Rath who are beneficial for different reasons.

This is why I pointed out that a logical argument against the recruitment-performance point does exist; this Nino argument is different from the Priscilla--Raven argument, and so accepting it might not necessarily lead to also accepting that Priscilla gets credit for Raven's performance and etc.

As for ranking personalities, if this is the case, you must disregard the relevance of all supports (along with other stuff, but we'll just start with supports). Would you be willing to do that?

More importantly, I disagree with the notion that Nino's "personality" is being ranked. The fact that she performs an action-command which leads to a benefit for your rankings is being cited here, not the fact that she is Jaffar's love interest. There is a difference. Again, the tier list player here should not even be aware that Nino is Jaffar's love interest, nor should he give that fact any consideration at all even if he is aware of it. Simply by considering it in your argument, you are obviously creating a storyline-based argument, whereas GE's argument is based purely on game mechanics and does not even mention Nino's personality or role in the game's storyline.

Wha? The entire thing is that the storyline is the reason for rejecting the seizing. It's a storyline-based argument, I suppose, but it is there to reject a storyline event. You could attribute seizing to his class, maybe, except his class is simply "Lord" until promotion, and Eliwood and Lyn have the same class but can't seize.

The question is this: Do you think the game's storyline should have any relevance at all in tier list discussions? If so, then I can cover the reasons why I disagree with that in my next post. If not, then see what I said to Life above. You are citing Hector's role in the storyline as a reason why his ability to seize should be disregarded; GreatEclipse's argument obviously makes no mention of storyline roles and is not dependent on them, unlike your line of reasoning. Hence, if you believe that the game's storyline should have no relevance to tier discussion, then you seem to be contradicting yourself in your argument against GE's line of reasoning.

On the second point, Eliwood and Lyn arguably have a different class from Hector due to the fact that, even though the name is the same, the animations, weapon types and even movement values and methods of promotion are different; likewise the classes do have different names post-promotion. There are more differences than similarities between them. Furthermore, as I mentioned elsewhere, if you disregard the abilities that are unique to Hector purely because they are unique to him as a lord, then you must also disregard the existence of the Wolf Beil, the Mani Katti, the Rapier, and the lords' Prf legendaries. Those are also lord-unique abilities. Would you think that to be acceptable?

I don't really see the parallel. If Farina automatically appeared and 10000 of your money disappeared or random items disappeared if you didn't have the 10000, then sure I'd say it can be disregarded. That would be storyline. But it isn't. Also, personal weapons are still items that a character can use during battle, so it is pretty direct.

The reason why Farina costs that money to recruit is directly linked to her personality and her role in the story, exactly the same as Hector's ability to seize. You have to pay that money because Farina's character is greedy and she demands the amount from Hector in order to join his army. Likewise, just as Hector's ability to seize is unique to him, and a facet of his character rather than his class, the same is true of Farina. The 20,000 gold is entirely unique to her; it is not a result of her class, her stats, her weapon ranks, or anything like that. Its existence can only be attributed to her character. The parallel seems extremely clear to me.

Now, if another character gives it to him through a convo or something, I wouldn't give them credit. Like Ethlin giving Cuan his holy weapon. Ethlin probably shouldn't get credit for that.

Thus, the lords' Prf legendaries in the game's final chapter must be disregarded. They are given by Athos in a storyline scene prior to the final chapter. Likewise, all supports must be disregarded; a conversation is required in order for the character to acquire them.

True, but that is specifically stat based. I'd like to think the tier list would focus on their contribution through stats and that type of thing. Their move, class, bases, growths, rescuing ability, usable weapons/items, that type of thing, rather than the conversations they could have.

If you want to focus on those aspects of a character alone, then yes, that is one possible way to do a tier list. The point, however, is that that view is very inconsistent with the way in which tier lists are actually done. Traits outside of those common to every unit (stats, move, etc) are obviously considered; Ninian's ability to use Ninis's Grace is considered, her unique ability to dance is considered, Matthew's unique ability to acquire the silver card is considered, etc.

Yeah, but that doesn't tell us anything about Nino and getting to the Gaiden chapter, so there is still that to deal with. The recruitment thing is largely because character contributions and item contributions should only be counted once. And since silver card is otherwise not counted, Matthew is the only logical candidate to take credit for it.

Indeed, as I said above, I brought it up because it doesn't apply to the Nino--28x argument. This was in response to Life citing recruitment-performance arguments as a direct consequence of accepting this Nino argument, and I wanted to point out that this is not necessarily the case. With regards to the silver card, I don't see how 28x is different. Aren't the items that you acquire in that chapter not otherwise counted, if you don't attribute them to Nino?

As for GreatEclipse and giving her credit for turns, what do you think of that? You still need all your other units helping out there to get under 10, but she gives you the chance.

Not sure if this is addressed to me or dondon. If it's to me, then my answer is that his point seems legitimate to me, so long as Matthew stealing the silver card is accepted, at least. You can use other units to reap the silver card's benefits after it is acquired, but only Matthew can give you the chance to do so.

Edited March 26, 2010 by CATS

[Interceptor]

Where is this "storyline" business originating from? The idea behind agreeing to ignore Seize is for practical reasons of avoiding auto-top Lords. It really isn't more complicated than that.

[Life]

This is why I pointed out that a logical argument against the recruitment-performance point does exist; this Nino argument is different from the Priscilla--Raven argument, and so accepting it might not necessarily lead to also accepting that Priscilla gets credit for Raven's performance and etc.

As for ranking personalities, if this is the case, you must disregard the relevance of all supports (along with other stuff, but we'll just start with supports). Would you be willing to do that?

More importantly, I disagree with the notion that Nino's "personality" is being ranked. The fact that she performs an action-command which leads to a benefit for your rankings is being cited here, not the fact that she is Jaffar's love interest. There is a difference. Again, the tier list player here should not even be aware that Nino is Jaffar's love interest, nor should he give that fact any consideration at all even if he is aware of it. Simply by considering it in your argument, you are obviously creating a storyline-based argument, whereas GE's argument is based purely on game mechanics and does not even mention Nino's personality or role in the game's storyline.

My big problem with GE's argument is that he claims that Nino gets you to 28x and should get credited for the chapter's spoils. The problem with that is that to do it, Nino has to recruit Jaffar or at the very least, fulfill the requirements to recruit Jaffar ("Jaffar - 26x/27 - 28x/29 - Automatically from the start if you talked to him with Nino during Ch 26 | 28 (and he survived)"). So rather than credit Nino for getting us to that chapter, we should be acknowledging that Jaffar is truly the one to unlock 28x as the requirement for 28x is "in Chapter 26 | 28, recruit Nino and make her talk to Jaffar. Jaffar must also survive Chapter 26 | 28". Recruiting Jaffar is what gets us to the side quest.

Also, I prefer to distinguish between characters and units but supports don't enter into character conversation because it makes the unit better. If PCs can do something involving talking that makes that specific unit better, I see it more as a unit action. Nino talking to Jaffar in 28 doesn't make Nino better. It just recruits Jaffar for the next available chapter as 28x is optional and doesn't have to be played (ironically, Merlinus isn't fielded there because he can't be, thought I might add that).

[dondon151]

so he's at least okay with it.

I'm not "okay" with it, though if the results are virtually inconsequential, the matter is pointless for debate. Simple as that.

[CATS]

My big problem with GE's argument is that he claims that Nino gets you to 28x and should get credited for the chapter's spoils. The problem with that is that to do it, Nino has to recruit Jaffar or at the very least, fulfill the requirements to recruit Jaffar ("Jaffar - 26x/27 - 28x/29 - Automatically from the start if you talked to him with Nino during Ch 26 | 28 (and he survived)"). So rather than credit Nino for getting us to that chapter, we should be acknowledging that Jaffar is truly the one to unlock 28x as the requirement for 28x is "in Chapter 26 | 28, recruit Nino and make her talk to Jaffar. Jaffar must also survive Chapter 26 | 28". Recruiting Jaffar is what gets us to the side quest.

Going back to your Merlinus argument, Jaffar's survival is required in order for this to happen, but Jaffar himself does not need to take any specific action in order for it to occur. It is Nino who uses Talk, not Jaffar. Thus, according to the reasons that you claim Merlinus does not contribute and is not a unit, why should Jaffar get credit for something which he does not perform any actions in order to acquire?

Also see what I said about NPCs.

Last but not least, even if it is the case that Jaffar should be credited with 28x, I don't see how it changes the principle of the argument.

Also, I prefer to distinguish between characters and units but supports don't enter into character conversation because it makes the unit better. If PCs can do something involving talking that makes that specific unit better, I see it more as a unit action. Nino talking to Jaffar in 28 doesn't make Nino better. It just recruits Jaffar for the next available chapter as 28x is optional and doesn't have to be played (ironically, Merlinus isn't fielded there because he can't be, thought I might add that).

This is an S Rank Tier List, not an Individual Combat Prowess Tier List, correct? Performing a support conversation is beneficial not because it increases a unit's stats, but because it boosts your ranks through boosting your units' stats. Likewise, Nino's conversation boosts your ranks through allowing 28x. As GE pointed out, it is all simply a means to an end. There is no reason to assert that one type of contribution is more valid than another if both are contributing towards the same goal. If your logic is that Nino's conversation is disregarded because Nino's personal stats do not increase as a result of it, why not the same for Matthew + Silver Card? Matthew's stats do not increase when he steals the silver card, either.