FireRed/LeafGreen ingame tier list

[dondon151]

You won't have a Nidorino by Lt. Surge? That's funny.

[Life]

Vulpix up. Obviously you can't find one until late in the game but it has sick S. Def which really helps when you consider that Water kills Fire. Plus Confuse Ray + Will-O-Wisp is one of the best 1-2 punches I have ever found in a Pokemon game. CR has 85 Acc IIRC and Will-O-Wisp always hits. Since Vulpix learns those automatically, it helps when taking on anyone, especially those that are super effective against it.

EDIT: Vulpix should be above Ponyta and Magmar, preferably under Electabuzz. But that's my opinion.

Edited April 28, 2010 by King Russell

[_____]

Confuse Ray has 100 Accuracy.

[Zkirsche]

Charizard flies.

Rock moves = bye bye charizard. Also, for what it's worth, Nidoking can learn surf.

Charmeleom gets awesome stuff like STAB Flamethrower at lv 34 for a wtf 142 attack move. Now, I'm not quite sure, but that sounds pretty sweet to me. Also, he isn't super reliable on TMs unlike Nidoking and he doesn't have to use a valuable stone to evolve.

Nidoking gets awesome stuff like Stab Earthquake/Sludge Bomb. And I wouldn't say Nidoking is super reliable on TM's. Besides, if he's pretty sweet with TM's & HM's why not give it to him? Doritos, as they say.

I don't think you can even GET Nidoran before Brock (It's on Route 3 IIRC, the one heading to Mt. Moon)

No, it's on the route to the left of viridian IIRC.

and he probably is too low of a level by Misty.

What makes you think he'll be miles behind charmander again?

Don't think he'll be evolving to Nidoking by Lt. Surge either

Hahahahaha, level 16 by Lt Surge is easy.

and Charmander wins Eirika no contest at all.

Said that.

Sure, Nidoking's ground vs. Koga, but Nidoking, like, doesn't HAVE many ground type moves so it's rather moot.

1 is enougth. Plus double resistance against poison. Not being Toxic'd = win.

Charizard probably beats Giovanni.

Rock moves vs Charizard and Nidoking's surf aside, you mean.

Lorelei also has Jynx which Charizard owns, and Lorlei owns Nidoking with EVERYTHING cuz he's part ground.

Megahorn vs Jynx? Iron Tail vs Jynx? Jynk is lol for most pokemon, Nidoking included.

Bruno's probably a tie (Charizard has resistance and can deal pretty good damage for the Fighting types, Nidoking wins vs. the 2 onix)

It's a shame said fighting types have rock moves, then. But, whatever.

Ground vs. Agatha is only good for... Arbok, since Golbat's flying and the other 3 have levitate, those making Earth type pretty useless there.

I guess.

Fire vs. dragon is pretty bad, true, but it's not like Earth's helping at all either since, again, he has 3 dudes who are totally immune. Gary is crazy for everyone so let's, like, not go there for now.

and 2 who aren't. Besides, it's not like Nidoking's locked to ground moves. Rock, Poison and Bug all say hi.

I can easily see Charmander>Nidoran.

I can't. Think about it:

People Char > Nido: Erika, Sabrina, Agatha, Loreal (maybe)

People Nido > Char: Brock, Misty, Lt Surge, Koga, Blaine, Giovanni, Lance

Even if the last two are also "maybe's", that's 5 to char's 4.

Edited April 30, 2010 by The Syobon

[riariadne]

Nidoran is after Brock in Gen 3. He's on the route left of Viridian in Gen 1 only.

People Char > Nido: Erika, Sabrina, Agatha, Loreal (maybe)

People Nido > Char: Brock, Misty, Lt Surge, Koga, Blaine, Giovanni, Lance

More like:

People Char > Nido: Eirika, Sabrina, Agatha, Rival!Blue

People Nido > Char: Misty, Lt. Surge, Koga, Blaine

People Char = Nido: Giovanni, Lorlei, Bruno, Lance, Champion!Blue

People Nido doesn't exist against: Brock

[Zkirsche]

Rival!Blue

Lolhow? The first significant rival battle, the one at cerulean, is clearly dominated by Nidoran/Rino. Double Kick vs Rattata, not weak to squirtle = char not weak to abra. Pigeotto's around about the same level, though I guess. = seems more likely. The next one's practically the same thing.

After that, it's Kadabra + Exeggcute > Nido, but growlithe + wartortle > Char. After that, Rhyhorn with rock attacks will destroy Char.

All in all, it's fairly even between the two when it comes to Gary, and I maintain the fact that Gio's rock moves will makes Nido > Gary there too.

[grandjackal]

Rock moves = bye bye charizard. Also, for what it's worth, Nidoking can learn surf.

Nidoking's typing isn't much better. Psychic, water, ice and ground. Charizard's got Water, electric, and x4 weakness to Rock.

Surf also comes up as a problem for your next point.

Nidoking gets awesome stuff like Stab Earthquake/Sludge Bomb. And I wouldn't say Nidoking is super reliable on TM's. Besides, if he's pretty sweet with TM's & HM's why not give it to him? Doritos, as they say.

Sludge Bomb you get quite literally when the game is over (you get it in the final rocket hideout on the sevii isles), and by the time you get Earthquake (Giovanni Gym Battle), you could probably have someone better use it.

That, and I believed you mentioned Surf in your last point, where it permanently takes up a slot, and appears only to show that he's needing to be taught all his moves to be good later on. Charizard at least has a good reason to get Fly, he's got STAB with it and high physical attack. Surf just seems more like an excuse for Nidoking if anything.

Only reason I might let Earthquake slide is because compared to most other units that get STAB with it, Nidoking is pretty fast, though he's still slow as sin, while still managing good attack with it. Only other fast ground types I can thik of are Sandshrew (who I don't even think is fast, along with the fact he sucks royally until he gets that move+Dig through TMs) and Diglett (who learns this stuff naturally, and has a myriad of other problems).

No, it's on the route to the left of viridian IIRC.

In the original series this was true. Not in FRLG.

What makes you think he'll be miles behind charmander again?

You'll be catching him at a low level in comparison. Consider it low starting base level. Not that I see any good reason what good Nidoking would be on Misty, considering the ground typing would just annihilate him. I think I'd prefer Nidorina, as I think she learns Bite (Starmie is part Psychic), and has the higher Sp Def to potentially take more of those special water attacks.

Hahahahaha, level 16 by Lt Surge is easy.

I have to agree there, though frankly I would prefer Diglett who starts fast and has STAB Dig. Granted that King could probably actually do some damage to Raichu due to far superior defense, but on the other hand I didn't have to train up Diglett, since I can catch him on sight in the nearby cave.

1 is enougth. Plus double resistance against poison. Not being Toxic'd = win.

Not a total win on Koga, in fact I'd again tilt that in Zard's favor. Most of the gym is actually full of Drowzee and Hypno, things that destroy Nidoking, and things Charizard doesn't have to worry about as much. Then Koga himself. Charizard's got Venomoth beat in spades, Charizard's special attack beats Nidoking's physical on the Koffings and Weezings, and I believe he has a Golbat as well. Don't even bring up Ground advantage, Golbat flies, the Koffings and Weezings have Levitate and Zard destroys Venomoth harshly as well (and if Nidoking fails to kill Venomoth, the moth's got Psybeam).

Rock moves vs Charizard and Nidoking's surf aside, you mean.

Because Nidoking's great special attack and water STAB is so effective. Just because he has dual weakness with Surf on most of them doesn't mean he's always going to OHKO them, especially with how weakly he uses said move. Furthermore, Nidoking has to deal with weaknesses just as much, as Nidoking has to deal with Earthquake. At least Rock Slide misses on occasion.

Frankly, I would say both suck here.

Megahorn vs Jynx? Iron Tail vs Jynx? Jynk is lol for most pokemon, Nidoking included.

Jynx actually has decent speed, Nidoking's pretty slow, Charizard is pretty fast. As much as Jynx is a joke, he at least doesn't have to eat a Psychic in the process.

It's a shame said fighting types have rock moves, then. But, whatever.

Again, good point.

and 2 who aren't. Besides, it's not like Nidoking's locked to ground moves. Rock, Poison and Bug all say hi.

Name one good poison move he's got by now, tell me what good Bug type attacks would do over Charizard's Flying (which at least has STAB and Fly can avoid possible Hyper Beams), and Charizard can also learn rock moves (the only one worth mentioning is Rock Slide), probably putting it to better use due to speed letting him possibly avoid attacks on kills along with giving him the ability to benefit off Flinching.

I can't. Think about it:

People Char > Nido: Erika, Sabrina, Agatha, Loreal (maybe)

People Nido > Char: Brock, Misty, Lt Surge, Koga, Blaine, Giovanni, Lance

Even if the last two are also "maybe's", that's 5 to char's 4.

Doesn't exist for Brock, is just as pointless versus Misty, doesn't actually win Koga, he's still not good against Giovanni, and you whipped Lance right out of your ass.

[Zkirsche]

Sludge Bomb you get quite literally when the game is over (you get it in the final rocket hideout on the sevii isles), and by the time you get Earthquake (Giovanni Gym Battle), you could probably have someone better use it.

Ah yes, forgot about that.

That, and I believed you mentioned Surf in your last point, where it permanently takes up a slot, and appears only to show that he's needing to be taught all his moves to be good later on. Charizard at least has a good reason to get Fly, he's got STAB with it and high physical attack. Surf just seems more like an excuse for Nidoking if anything.

4* damage is a good enougth reason to use it, if only for Blain + Gio's gym. Considering his Sp.A isn't that much lower than his Atk, I don't see why not.

In the original series this was true. Not in FRLG.

So it seems.

You'll be catching him at a low level in comparison. Consider it low starting base level. Not that I see any good reason what good Nidoking would be on Misty, considering the ground typing would just annihilate him. I think I'd prefer Nidorina, as I think she learns Bite (Starmie is part Psychic), and has the higher Sp Def to potentially take more of those special water attacks.

He doesn't necessarily have to be Nidoking against Misty. Nidorino would be most preferable. STAB Poison sting and horn attack probably. Poisoning Misty's pokemon would be nice. In fact, after Nidoking gets Toxic, he could learn it to be even more awesome.

I have to agree there, though frankly I would prefer Diglett who starts fast and has STAB Dig. Granted that King could probably actually do some damage to Raichu due to far superior defense, but on the other hand I didn't have to train up Diglett, since I can catch him on sight in the nearby cave.

Like you said, Diglett has overall worse stats for the job and is also worse in the long run.

Not a total win on Koga, in fact I'd again tilt that in Zard's favor. Most of the gym is actually full of Drowzee and Hypno, things that destroy Nidoking, and things Charizard doesn't have to worry about as much. Then Koga himself. Charizard's got Venomoth beat in spades, Charizard's special attack beats Nidoking's physical on the Koffings and Weezings, and I believe he has a Golbat as well. Don't even bring up Ground advantage, Golbat flies, the Koffings and Weezings have Levitate and Zard destroys Venomoth harshly as well (and if Nidoking fails to kill Venomoth, the moth's got Psybeam).

I wouldn't say they destroyed Nidoking, Nidoking might have Megahorn by this point to deal with them. Only the gym leaders are worth anything anyway.

It's more attack vs defence against most of koga and since the Sp.A advantage of Char's is really only marginal, I'd say Nido's 2* resistance comes in very handy, though. He can essentially tank his way through Koga up until Venomoth, which I'll give you. I'd like to see Charizard tank Toxic.

Though I guess they can be called = on this one.

Because Nidoking's great special attack and water STAB is so effective.

Actually it is, 4* resistance does work wonders. 380 atk move without stats implemented. Heck, Nido's Sp.A isn't that much lower than Char's (109 vs 85 at base).

Just because he has dual weakness with Surf on most of them doesn't mean he's always going to OHKO them, especially with how weakly he uses said move. Furthermore, Nidoking has to deal with weaknesses just as much, as Nidoking has to deal with Earthquake. At least Rock Slide misses on occasion.

Rock slide will deal much more damage to Char though, and would you risk it? At least Nido could probably sponge an Earthquake, or at least inflict toxic, Once char gets hit by a rock slide it's goodnight Charizard.

Jynx actually has decent speed, Nidoking's pretty slow, Charizard is pretty fast. As much as Jynx is a joke, he at least doesn't have to eat a Psychic in the process.

95 (jynx) vs 85 (Nido) base speed isn't that different. If Nido's a higher level then he could even be winning Speed.

Name one good poison move he's got by now, tell me what good Bug type attacks would do over Charizard's Flying (which at least has STAB and Fly can avoid possible Hyper Beams), and Charizard can also learn rock moves (the only one worth mentioning is Rock Slide), probably putting it to better use due to speed letting him possibly avoid attacks on kills along with giving him the ability to benefit off Flinching.

Toxic.

Nido has higher atk to counter act the Stab, not to mention megahorn is much, much stronger than fly (120 vs 70). Nidoking has higher atk for the rock moves and as for speed, Dragonite, his pre forms and gyarados are all slower than Nidoking. Only aerodactyl is faster and you wouldn't use rock for him anyway. Not that it matters as he'd probably destroy Charizard with STAB Rock slide.

Doesn't exist for Brock, is just as pointless versus Misty, doesn't actually win Koga, he's still not good against Giovanni, and you whipped Lance right out of your ass.

1) Fair deuce.

2) Not true - he can survive against misty.

3) Fair deuce.

4) Better than Char is, at the very least.

5) Everyone to their own.

[riariadne]

I'd say this is probably the best way to put the Char vs. Nido thing matchup-wise:

People Char > Nido: Eirika, Sabrina, Agatha

People Nido > Char: Misty, Lt. Surge, Blaine

People Char = Nido: Giovanni, Lorlei, Bruno, Lance, Blue, Koga

People Nido doesn't exist against: Brock

Other points:

Comparing Gen 3 Base stats:

Charizard 78 HP/ 84 atk/ 78 def/ 109 SpecA/ 85 SpecD/ 100 Spd

Nidoking 81 HP/ 92 atk/ 77 def/ 85 SpecA/ 75 SpecD/ 85 Spd

Charizard wins Defense by 1, Special attack by 24, Special Defense by 10, and Speed by 15

Nidoking wins HP by 3 and Atk by 8.

-Charmander is a higher level than Nido at joining time and probably keeps a small level lead (1-2 ish) all game, which is a bit pointless but still true

-Charizard has Fly and Flamethrower, and probably best Fire blast user as well

-Bug does awful vs. Koga (poison) in regard to Megahorn

-Charizard gets STAB w/ Fly, Flamethrower & Fire Blast, Ndio gets no good STAB moves except Earthquake (after Gio) and Sludge Bomb (way too late). Also no STAB w/ Surf.

And 1 more thing to say:

Moltres is not bottom tier in FRLG, dammit!

Edited May 11, 2010 by Lightning

[Zkirsche]

Will he even have Megahorn by Koga? I can't recall levels by this time but I think in my PT, where I duoed the game with Nido and Vena, he only just got Megahorn here.

-Charizard gets STAB w/ Fly, Flamethrower & Fire Blast, Ndio gets no good STAB moves except Earthquake (after Gio) and Sludge Bomb (way too late). Also no STAB w/ Surf.

It doesn't matter if he doesn't have STAB with Surf, he has 4* damage and still has decent Sp.A.

Oh and points 2 + 4 are practically the same.

Personally, I'd say the stats are mostly superfluous and it really just comes down to type match up's and movepool. Both of which Nido wins IMO.

Moltres is not bottom tier in FRLG, dammit!

Yeah, And mewtwo most certainly isn't mid if this is the case.

Cody, please start inputting in on discussion, otherwise this Nido vs Char thing will go on forever and this moltres/mewtwo problem will remain unchanged.

Edited May 11, 2010 by The Syobon

[Life]

I'm still calling for Vulpix up to around Magmar. Pretty sure that you can get both of them at around the same time while Vulpix has a proper moveset to keep its weaknesses from killing it too fast (AKA Confuse Ray + WoW).

[Dark Sage]

Just remove Moltres and Mewto from the list since they don't appear till after you beat the game.

[riariadne]

Yeah they do... He's counting Sevii Islands.

Also this topic died.

[Dat Nick]

Moltres is not bottom tier in FRLG, dammit!

because? I don't care if it doesn't suck as much as RBY. Just having the islands to work with is not enough, even if it could solo the damn things (okay, maybe not to that extreme, but...) It's not Hitmontop tier, that's all I'm buying.

Yeah, And mewtwo most certainly isn't mid if this is the case.

Again, because? Mewtwo sure doesn't win availability, but he's a lot better than Moltres for the time he exists.

Oh, and the Nidoran side of the argument has been making much better arguments. Pretty sure Nidoran F should move up too since the difference between the two nidorans isn't all that great. Y/N?

Edited May 30, 2010 by Cody Travers

[riariadne]

Mewtwo has literally the worst availability in the game, and you can get Moltres before the E4. Where he does pretty good against Agatha and can probably 1shot Jynx w/ Flamethrower.

[Dat Nick]

Mewtwo has literally the worst availability in the game

Okay.

Now tell me something I DON'T know.

and you can get Moltres before the E4.

Can you please talk to me like I have an IQ over three? Again, I already know this shit.

Where he does pretty good against Agatha and can probably 1shot Jynx w/ Flamethrower.

Okay, maybe, but I wouldn't really say all that good, and are you REALLY going to use Moltres against Lorelei in the first place? I don't know if she's smart enough to counter-switch, but I don't really have a reason to believe she isn't.

[dondon151]

Okay, maybe, but I wouldn't really say all that good, and are you REALLY going to use Moltres against Lorelei in the first place? I don't know if she's smart enough to counter-switch, but I don't really have a reason to believe she isn't.

This is an AI that we're talking about.

[Dat Nick]

Yeah, and I've seen AI switch out due to types before.

[_____]

I've seen it happen as well, but I also saw Thorton (not even a generic trainer) and his Garchomp spam Earthquake instead of Dragon Claw on a Salamence at extremely low HP, so you can't rely on it being smart or being retarded.

[Dat Nick]

When the cost of it being smart is Moltres at a disadvantageous matchup, I'd say you can't just brush the fact aside.

People make a big deal out of 5% crits and 30% instakill chances in Pokemon, I don't see how this is any different.

Edited June 4, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[BBM]

I have seen E4 members switch out. Lorelei I remember specifically, because I switched in my Charizard for her Jynx, and she switched out to Lapras.

[Zkirsche]

because? I don't care if it doesn't suck as much as RBY. Just having the islands to work with is not enough, even if it could solo the damn things (okay, maybe not to that extreme, but...) It's not Hitmontop tier, that's all I'm buying.

If not having the islands to work with is not enougth, why is Mewtwo so much higher than Moltres and why Ditto a tier ahead? What on earth does Ditto do that puts it that far above Moltres?

Again, because? Mewtwo sure doesn't win availability, but he's a lot better than Moltres for the time he exists.

Except Moltres has 2* better availability to make up for it. There's no way on earth Mewtwo can be 6 tiers above Moltres just for being better in teh sevii islands.

Oh, and the Nidoran side of the argument has been making much better arguments. Pretty sure Nidoran F should move up too since the difference between the two nidorans isn't all that great. Y/N?

I think it's less defined, Nido(M) vs Char is already very close, but Nido (F)'s lack of Sp.A may just be the tie breaker between the two, after all, one of the Nido's greatest points is their large movepool available to them compared to any other pokemon. But with the Nido (F), Sp attacks are just not as impressive.

[Anouleth]

Wow, I just saw this tier list and I posted in the other one as well

Anyway, same thing. Butterfree:

-Uses Psychic attacks with decent power

-One of very few Pokemon with usable Bug-type moves (and both Silver Wind and Bug Buzz are better than Beedrill's Twineedle)

-Stupidly accurate Sleep and Paralysis inducing moves

-Whirlwind lets it ignore random encounters

-Base stats are decent, better than 2nd tier starters

[_____]

Bug Buzz is Gen IV only and Butterfree learns Silver Wind at, like, level 50~, which I didn't even get to for most of my Pokemon after beating the Elite Four.

[Anouleth]

Oh, my mistake. It's listed in Bulbapedia as level 28, but that's Gen IV as well.