Lyn Hard Mode - stat boosters and S-rank Funds

[Interceptor]

I've heard tell that it's possible to use both the Energy Ring and Angelic Robe on someone in LHM, and still S-rank Funds in order to have Lyn show up with a White Gem later on. According to the data here on Serenes, here's what's needed for Funds in order to hit the 80% threshold in LHM:

W/o chapter 7x -- 39310 * 80% --> 31448

With chapter 7x -- 43760 * 80% --> 35008

The strategy for this quest seems pretty straightforward, so I took a stab at it this weekend. I didn't buy anything, rushed through chapters where possible, abused the snot out of Lyn's free weapon, and made sure not to use the Knight Crest. I skipped 7x, since a cursory glance at the gains possible in this chapter (stolen lockpick, Hammer in a chest) did not add up to the additional Funds requirement for the chapter (4450 gold value).

Lyn shows up with a Blue Gem.

Well, let's analyze. Knight Crest accounts for 10,000 of the Funds needed, and you get 7,000 gold via houses and cutscenes, so that's 14,448 needed if you skip 7x. Adding up the value of everyone's starting gear gets you a 11470 gold value, but it's impossible to not degrade items in the process of clearing the mode. A smattering of other drops/findables gives you another 5580 or so (not counting 7x), giving me a buffer of about 2602 if you add it all together.

That's a pretty tight budget, kids. Even if you have Lyn using the Mani Katti whenever possible, if she's soloing the entire mode it's probably going to break eventually, never mind that she can't handle Lundgren in the first place, since the effort to get her to a 2RKO on him -- ignoring her durability and her penchant for whiffing him -- is ridiculous.

So, I'm interested to hear how anyone who pulled it off was able to make it possible. Is there some obvious trick that I neglected to employ?

[whase]

never mind that she can't handle Lundgren in the first place, since the effort to get her to a 2RKO on him -- ignoring her durability and her penchant for whiffing him -- is ridiculous.

I might understand this wrong, but are you saying Lyn can't defeat Lundren in 2 rounds? because she can if you use the armorslayer, or is that costing too much from the fundings?

[Interceptor]

Well, there's no point in having her use the Armorslayer where the Mani Katti is just as good from a hit/mt perspective, but is also cost-free and has good crit.

The issue is that Lundgren's effective DEF from sitting on a Gate means that Lyn is hitting him for her STR. Since he has 35 HP, even if you time it so that the first attack is on Enemy Phase and the second is on Player Phase (to prevent the Gate from healing him), she needs 9 STR for a clean 2RKO (9 * 4 = 36). That doesn't happen until she hits level 13-14 or so, which is kind of a bridge too far in my opinion. I guess you could give her the Energy Ring to reduce the level needed (or counter RNG-screwage), but I kind of want to give that to Wil Florina.

EDIT: actually with WTD, that'd require 10 STR, which is even more ridiculous.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Interceptor

[whase]

...if she's soloing the entire mode it's probably going to break eventually,...

... That doesn't happen until she hits level 13-14 or so, which is kind of a bridge too far in my opinion....

sorry, I though you were talking about soloing with Lyn, she's probably lvl.18 or so when reaching Lundren when soloing

Well, there's no point in having her use the Armorslayer where the Mani Katti is just as good from a hit/mt perspective, but is also cost-free and has good crit.

weird, if I remember correctly from the time I solo'd LM with lyn, armorslayer did way more damage to Lundgren then the mani katti did~

[Interceptor]

sorry, I though you were talking about soloing with Lyn, she's probably lvl.18 or so when reaching Lundren when soloing

Well, solo is only as good as the Mani Katti. Once she starts having to use Iron weapons, she's no better than anyone else for saving Funds (and probably worse because of her STR). I happen to have the save at Ch. 10, and Lyn is level 9.46 with 17 uses of her Katti left. That's enough for a few more kills, but she's not hitting her target STR for a clean 2RKO (which presents its own problems because of her fail durability and accuracy against the boss).

Obviously I can use another method, like Hammertime or magic, but that's just more cash down the drain.

weird, if I remember correctly from the time I solo'd LM with lyn, armorslayer did way more damage to Lundgren then the mani katti did~

I have no explanation for that, effective weapons follow the 2x mt rule in every circumstance that I've ever seen. Wallace does 15 damage to Lundgren with a Heavy Lance, for example.

[deleted35362]

and still S-rank Funds in order to have Lyn show up with a White Gem later on.

Are you fkn serious? All this time, the gem that she gets depends on the funds rank?

[dondon151]

Obviously I can use another method, like Hammertime or magic, but that's just more cash down the drain.

If you can afford the 40G per use of Hammer, or 75G per use of Heavy Spear (too much), I don't see a problem with it.

[Interceptor]

Are you fkn serious? All this time, the gem that she gets depends on the funds rank?

Yeah, it's Funds, as far as I know. This is difficult for me to confirm since my ranking screen doesn't update anymore, but iirc you get a White Gem for 5-star, a Blue Gem for 4-star, and a Red Gem for 3-star.

If you can afford the 40G per use of Hammer, or 75G per use of Heavy Spear (too much), I don't see a problem with it.

That's a fair point. I'm skipping the 7x Hammer, but there's a buyable one in the last chapter. It's a shame that Dorcas is the only one who can use it, since he has about a 0% chance of ever being able to double Lundgren with it, plus like 50 listed HIT, but it's probably the cheapest kill that isn't the Mani Katti. As long as Dorcas gets +1 STR on a level-up, it's still a 3RKO even if the Gate heals twice, so that's workable I suppose.

I have some new data on this to share. Since I kept my Chapter 10 save that garnered a Blue Gem, I loaded it up and took down the stuff that I had, converting it into gold values. As follows, the stuff I had on hand as opposed to what I think is the maximum possible:

Vulneraries: 25/30 uses, 2500g

Iron lance: 150/180 uses, 1200g

Iron sword: 115/184 uses, 1150g

Pure Water: 3/3 uses, 900g

Slim lance: 14/30 uses, 210g

Lancereaver: 15/15 uses, 1800g

Fire tome: 26/40 uses, 364g

Lightning tome: 29/35 uses, 522g

Heal staff: 29/30 uses, 580g

Short bow: 14/22 uses, 1120g

Iron bow: 33/45 uses, 396g

Lockpick: 11/15 uses, 880g

Armorslayer: 18/18 uses, 1260g

Iron axe: 89/90 uses, 534g

Hand axe: 14/20 uses, 210g

Torch: 5/5 uses, 500g

Door key: 1/2 uses 50g

Knight Crest: 1/1 uses, 10000g

Raw gold: 7000g

Add it all together: 31,176g value

This means that at the beginning of Ch10, I was only 272g short of 5-star Funds. Now, obviously I am going to burn more funds to clear this chapter, but I'm not as far short of the goal as I thought I was. There are some significant savings to be had, at a cursory glance. I could have captured 500g just by never using a heal (hard, but possible), leaned on iron axes/lances more, never used bows, and use my door keys instead of Matt where possible. Etc.

I'm thinking that if I do a run where I rely heavily on Dorcas, Lyn, and the Cavs with lances, I can pull it off, so long as I minimize combat where possible (boss kill in 7, Lyn-bomb Seize in 9, etc).

Edited April 7, 2010 by Speedwagon

[dondon151]

You would be better off, if you had the option, to use Heal over a Vulnerary. I'm sure you know that already, though.

[Just call me AL]

That's a fair point. I'm skipping the 7x Hammer, but there's a buyable one in the last chapter. It's a shame that Dorcas is the only one who can use it, since he has about a 0% chance of ever being able to double Lundgren with it, plus like 50 listed HIT, but it's probably the cheapest kill that isn't the Mani Katti. As long as Dorcas gets +1 STR on a level-up, it's still a 3RKO even if the Gate heals twice, so that's workable I suppose.

What about using Erk and Lucius to help soften Lundgren up before moving Dorcas in for the kill? (I know it would probably work provided Lundgren has that silver lance equipped, but I'm just wondering what are the fewest-turns and most funds possibilities about that.) Edited April 7, 2010 by Little Al

[Interceptor]

Alright, I did another run using some of the aforementioned ideas for saving money. This is what it looks like at the start of Ch10:

Vulneraries: 30/30 uses, 3000g

Iron lance: 89/180 uses, 712g

Iron sword: 132/184 uses, 1320g

Pure Water: 3/3 uses, 900g

Slim lance: 30/30 uses, 450g

Lancereaver: 15/15 uses, 1800g

Fire tome: 40/40 uses, 560g

Lightning tome: 35/35 uses, 630g

Heal staff: 30/30 uses, 600g

Short bow: 22/22 uses, 1760g

Iron bow: 45/45 uses, 540g

Lockpick: 12/15 uses, 960g

Armorslayer: 18/18 uses, 1260g

Iron axe: 46/90 uses, 276g

Hand axe: 20/20 uses, 300g

Torch: 5/5 uses, 500g

Door key: 0/2 uses 0g

Knight Crest: 1/1 uses, 10000g

Raw gold: 7000g

Add it all together: 32,568g value. I've earned myself a buffer of 1,120 gold, somehow. In order to pull it off, this mode was basically the Lyn, Kent, Dorcas, and Florina show. Nobody else saw combat. Levels at the start of Ch10:

Lyn: 9.80

Kent: 8.47

Florina: 6.64

Dorcas: 8.57

Mana Katti is at 19/45 since I was a bit too conservative. But, this means I can get Lyn a couple levels here, if I want to have her solo the map. Some time later I'll cap this chapter off, plow through HNM to see if Lyn has the White Gem, and report back in.

You would be better off, if you had the option, to use Heal over a Vulnerary. I'm sure you know that already, though.

Yep. Managed to dodge that bullet, though, via using forests and forts liberally, as well as having people run around at death's door because I was too stingy to heal them.

What about using Erk and Lucius to help soften Lundgren up before moving Dorcas in for the kill? (I know it would probably work provided Lundgren has that silver lance equipped, but I'm just wondering what are the fewest-turns and most funds possibilities about that.)

Well, I don't care about turns, just Funds. I play quickly because it bothers me if I don't, but I'm thinking about getting Nils to level 7 by taking my time on the last chapter (not gonna boss-abuse Lundgren though). I usually do use the mages like you said, but since I have the advantage of time, I may just whittle him down with Dorcas.

[Narga_Rocks]

Does Lyn get a full Mani Katti in the next part of the game or is she stuck with whatever is left over?

[Mekkah]

Gets a full new one. Everyone gets a brand new inventory.

Why'd you use Kent instead of Sain? Sain can 2HKO and OHKO sometimes when Kent 3HKOs and 2HKOs, theoretically saving weapon uses. Not that it ended up mattering...

[Colonel M]

Gets a full new one. Everyone gets a brand new inventory.

Why'd you use Kent instead of Sain? Sain can 2HKO and OHKO sometimes when Kent 3HKOs and 2HKOs, theoretically saving weapon uses. Not that it ended up mattering...

I think Interceptor has a soft side for Rick Astley-like units...

[Interceptor]

Why'd you use Kent instead of Sain? Sain can 2HKO and OHKO sometimes when Kent 3HKOs and 2HKOs, theoretically saving weapon uses. Not that it ended up mattering...

You'll never guess why I went with Kent instead of Sain.

I decided that training one would be better than both, and looked at the stats/growths to choose which. Sain seemed like the superior choice, since he's only a little bit slower than Kent, but a lot stronger (especially in the long run). Then again, Kent's lower mt could be mitigated somewhat by using a heavier weapon, buffered by having more headroom in his final AS. Also, Kent has a possible decent support with Lyn (who I will be using), where Sain does not.

So why did I go with Kent? Because in the Defend chapter, his forced deployment slot is such that he can reach a forest on Turn 1 and bulldog a bunch of guys with an Iron Sword. The added DEF and avo means that Kent never has to heal. Sain can't, he runs out of MV before he gets there. Florina can easily handle the northeast once the axe guy dies (non-stop flood of mercs spawn there, she 2HKOs them all at base with Iron and they 9HKO her back), so that's why Sain got benched: nothing more than an accident of deployment.

I guess I could have used Sain anyway, since his DEF lead over Kent means that he gets some measure of protection even though he won't get the avoid immediately on Turn 1, but whatever. I suppose I just subconsciously prefer the Red Cavaliers.

[dondon151]

So then, can you get S rank LHM while using the 2 stat boosters?

[Interceptor]

So then, can you get S rank LHM while using the 2 stat boosters?

I don't think so. As far as Tactics/Combat/Survival are concerned, there are no problems. Funds, it's close but manageable. But I don't think that EXP can happen, I am basically 10 levels behind at the start of Chapter 10 and there's no way to make up for that difference without killing Tactics (aka, abusing Serra and Nils).

At any rate, I guess that Funds isn't the primary driver of the Gem. Either that, or I royally messed up in my Chapter 10 clear, or the Funds requirements on the site are wrong. I plowed my way to Ch16 HNM, and Lyn still has a Blue Gem. Stuff definitely did carry over, as she's level ridiculous, and Erk/Sain are both level 1.

So if this actually does require a complete S-rank, I am not sure that I see how it is reasonably possible. I need to gain 37 levels in LHM, which is kind of difficult to pull off if I'm also trying to minimize expenditures. Certainly I can train both Kent and Sain for some of it, but there are no cheap ways to train the likes of Wil, Erk, or Lucius. Serra, Matt, and Nils can help there, but I'm not sure if they can make up the gap.

[Interceptor]

So, I've done some more testing on this, and come to the conclusion that I don't understand what the problem is. I took the same Chapter 10 save that I listed above, and beat it without using the two stat boosters (I used neither of them). Then, I started a HNM game, and plowed my way to Chapter 16. This time, Lyn is carrying a White Gem. From this, we can assume that it's not required to S-rank Lyn Mode for the White Gem, because there's no way in heck that I five-starred EXP in Lyn mode with the levels that I was able to obtain.

What gives? As listed in the ranking tables, I achieved the 80% threshold of Funds required for five stars. I double-checked my math for items, and surely did not spend more than ~1100 gold worth of value in the process of my clear (bought a Hammer, lightly used an iron lance and axe).

It's a little bit baffling, to be honest. Maybe the threshold for the White Gem is higher than five-star Funds? A flat 35,000 gold worth, or something equally arbitrary?

[Interceptor]

Last update for this thread: I finally managed to pull it off, getting a playthrough of LHM that spent both boosters and resulted in a White Gem when Lyn rejoins. The trick was, for some reason, chapter 7x, which I went to this time. Here's what my inventory looked like at the start of Chapter 10:

Vulneraries: 30/3000g

Iron lance: 94/752g

Iron sword: 94/940g

Pure Water: 3/900g

Slim lance: 30/450g

Lancereaver: 15/1800g

Fire tome: 38/532g

Lightning tome: 35/630g

Heal staff: 27/540g

Short bow: 22/1760g

Iron bow: 43/516g

Lockpick: 24/1920g

Armorslayer: 18/1260g

Hammer: 20/800g

Iron axe: 65/390g

Hand axe: 17/255g

Torch: 5/500g

Knight Crest: 1/10000g

Raw gold: 7000g

Total here is 33,945g. This is only a difference of 1,377 more than my last run, largely made up of the second set of lockpicks. I whiffed a chance to steal a couple of vulneraries in 7x with Matt, my guys were too good and killed the enemy first, that was about 900g that I gave up on as a result.

Unit levels, start of Ch10:

Lyn: 11.05

Sain: 10.10

Florina: 7.92

Dorcas: 6.16

Nils: 2.91

Matt: 3.33

Everyone else got piddly EXP or is at base level.

Well anyway, whatever I did differently was clearly sufficient for a White Gem. I did abuse Nils to level 7 (but nobody else) before clearing this chapter, but everything else was basically the same. I don't understand what happened here, but it did finally work. The data is posted, if anyone has the foggiest idea of what went on here.

[chrysalid]

Could be that it's just a set amount of funds you need to go over rather than being directly connected to the funds rank. People were just assuming a connection.

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

It may be that it's 43760 regardless of whether or not you go to 7x. I dunno.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Sidney Crysby

[chrysalid]

He didn't make 80% of 43760 in the run where he did 7x though, meaning he didn't 5-star funds. Maybe you just need 33k funds (if it's a nice round number) coming out of Lyn mode to get the white gem and it has nothing to do with the funds rank per se.

Or maybe 7x is actually a requirement? If anyone wants to try it you could skip 7x then hex edit in a few thousand gold and see if the white gem still shows up.

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

He didn't make 80% of 43760 in the run where he did 7x though, meaning he didn't 5-star funds. Maybe you just need 33k funds (if it's a nice round number) coming out of Lyn mode to get the white gem and it has nothing to do with the funds rank per se.

Or maybe 7x is actually a requirement? If anyone wants to try it you could skip 7x then hex edit in a few thousand gold and see if the white gem still shows up.

You're right. I S-ranked the mode with 31716 Gold while skipping 7x. I don't know about getting the White Gem because Hector died before then and I didn't save, but given what happened to Interceptor, I think I would have gotten a Blue Gem as well.

[Interceptor]

He didn't make 80% of 43760 in the run where he did 7x though, meaning he didn't 5-star funds. Maybe you just need 33k funds (if it's a nice round number) coming out of Lyn mode to get the white gem and it has nothing to do with the funds rank per se.

I think that this is probably correct. I'd say that it's likely a 32-33k minimum value.

Or maybe 7x is actually a requirement? If anyone wants to try it you could skip 7x then hex edit in a few thousand gold and see if the white gem still shows up.

Well, I got the White Gem while skipping 7x when I declined to use the stat boosters. So, it appears that 7x isn't strictly a requirement.

[VincentASM]

This stuff about Lyn's gem in Chapter 15 piqued my interest, so I did some testing and found that it seems to tie in with your Assets (and not your Funds rank) as some suspected.

Less than 19,999G: No gem

20,000 - 29,999G: Red Gem

30,000 - 32,999G: Blue Gem

33,000G or more: White Gem

This was tested in LHM -> EHM.