Using Est on wifi ><

[Ansem]

if a wi-fi player wanted to use Caeda on their main team, do you think they would bring her to 15-16 str? Your right personal experience doesn't count for much but common sense does

Its actually this quote i still dont understand

[Krad]

Its actually this quote i still dont understand

He's simply saying that if you wanted to use Shiida for Wi-Fi, you are probably going to aim for the highest stats possible isntead of just making it to the averages. Say, you want to use Gordin for Wi-Fi. He averages 15 STR at level 20/20. Are you just going to throw him with his mighty 15 STR in Wi-Fi and hope for the best? No, you will try to get his stats as high as possible even if he ends up completely different to his averages (He caps STR instead of being 9 points away from doing so).

Edited April 15, 2010 by Krad

[XxWolfxX]

He's simply saying that if you wanted to use Shiida for Wi-Fi, you are probably going to aim for the highest stats possible isntead of just making it to the averages. Say, you want to use Gordin for Wi-Fi. He averages 15 STR at level 20/20. Are you just going to throw him with his mighty 15 STR in Wi-Fi and hope for the best? No, you will try to get his stats as high as possible even if he ends up completely different to his averages (He caps STR instead of being 9 points away from doing so).

thanks krad, I guess he didn't get the hint of sarcasm. *face palm*

[BK-201]

Wolf, what Kai means is that a typical Shiida, ignoring class changing, averages 15.6 STR at level 20/20, and has a meager STR growth of 20%. It's true that Wi-Fi teams are abused by resetting, but a typical "efficient" run through isn't necessarily going to have every, or any character end up at level 20/20 and stats are assumed to follow the norm rather than the miracle.

[Narga_Rocks]

Wolf, what Kai means is that a typical Shiida, ignoring class changing, averages 15.6 STR at level 20/20, and has a meager STR growth of 20%. It's true that Wi-Fi teams are abused by resetting, but a typical "efficient" run through isn't necessarily going to have every, or any character end up at level 20/20 and stats are assumed to follow the norm rather than the miracle.

But this is wifi. Why would you do that to yourself? And even if you did, why wouldn't you use stat boosters and abuse the arenas to afford more and get people to 20/20? Efficient play is completely irrelevant because what's better, efficiently playing through the game and then getting stomped on in wifi or building a team for wifi? Note that this topic is on the wifi board, so what is best for the single player game is quite clearly irrelevant.

Why assume following the average when no one in their right mind would leave characters at those averages when playing against a person that has abused the rng before playing against you?

[dondon151]

Because Sylvan would complain about RNG abuse.

[Narga_Rocks]

Because Sylvan would complain about RNG abuse.

Okay, fine, I'll rephrase it.

Because Wolf is the one making the topic and he will do whatever he feels is best for making a good (or unique, at least) wifi team, why assume that wolf won't reset abuse Caeda's levels to make her better? And failing to get good stats that way, why wouldn't he pump her full of stat boosters? He's clearly indicated a willingness to do so, and as such there are a lot of pointless posts happening.

[Sylvan]

Because Sylvan would complain about RNG abuse.

^ This.

Or hacking. Hacking more likely.

To save a long rant from me, all I'll say is RNG abuse proves very little in the long run.

[Meteor]

well i suppose you could class swap her to myrimidon right off the get go then just bring her to the ch 22(or was it 23) arena and grind straight through to swordmaster (bring mseal) that way shed have 50% hp growth from 3/0 - 20/20. which could in theory be a guarenteed 39-43 hp. (16 hp base + 2 for promote. plus 37 levels, 22 hp isnt that much of a stretch) give her 2 robes and thats 54 which can survive one hit from a max brave axe from a berserker assuming she has at least 7ish def, and her counter SHOULD crit. ohko; with a max crit/mt wo dao which should be around a 60-70% crit chance. That is with her skill and luck maxed and the weapons crit at 50. Now I realize thats all speculating could just be rubbish but in theory it sounds good.

This is completely wrong. A max brave Berserker will ORKO her before she can even counterattack, and have a better chance at getting a crit, too.

If you must use Est, she should be a Sniper or Swordmaster. She doesn't have enough Def/Mag to be anything else.

[XxWolfxX]

This is completely wrong. A max brave Berserker will ORKO her before she can even counterattack, and have a better chance at getting a crit, too.

If you must use Est, she should be a Sniper or Swordmaster. She doesn't have enough Def/Mag to be anything else.

lol you do realize you completely contridicted yourself right? That was to make a swordmaster, if you read it. and i just finished est if your interested her final stats before stat boosters (except 1 robe) are: (swordmaster) 52/24/1/29/30/30/16/4 that doesn't seem that bad to me. oh and due to having 30 luck i don't she's getting crited by something that has weapon disadvange against her let alone ohkod, not to mention unless your using brave axe (which if you actually decide to pour 200kish into one weapon probably would ohko anything not just est) your never going to double her.

edit: And yes i just realised i typed the initial post wrong forgeting that the brave weapons attack twice first. but as i stated above there is no unit that a max berserker cant ohko so that counter-argument gets kind of old imo.

Edited April 19, 2010 by XxWolfxX

[Meteor]

16 Def is in an entirely different ballpark than 7, which is what I based my claim on. Your personal experience does not contradict what I said. As for crit...

Raw crit calculations

Berserker: 22/2 (skill) + 10 (class bonus) + 30 (forge) - 30 (luck) = 21

Swordmaster: 29/2 (skill) + 50 (forge) - 22 (luck) = 41

It may look like Est has better odds of getting a critical hit, but this is not true. The Berserker has 2 chances, which makes it actually 37%. So assuming she can live through two regular hits, she has a 63% chance of ever attacking. Actual crit rate: 26%. Considering the prevalence of Dazzle, I wouldn't even consider this a factor, though.

I assume you were exaggerating, but I'll say it anyway -- Berserkers are not guaranteed to ORKO any units that have 25+ speed, with the exception of Horsemen. Even if "no one" has maxed braves, you shouldn't default to ignoring the worst case scenario.

I'm not trying to say that Est is bad, but your reasoning is poor. She has access to triangle attacking, and has fairly good stats; both are major benefits. But in the long run, high luck/crit is not going to be the reason she succeeds.

[Ansem]

Forget everything i posted before

She should be a falcoknight because of the mobility, resistance and defense

[XxWolfxX]

16 Def is in an entirely different ballpark than 7, which is what I based my claim on. Your personal experience does not contradict what I said. As for crit...

Raw crit calculations

Berserker: 22/2 (skill) + 10 (class bonus) + 30 (forge) - 30 (luck) = 21

Swordmaster: 29/2 (skill) + 50 (forge) - 22 (luck) = 42*

It may look like Est has better odds of getting a critical hit, but this is not true. The Berserker has 2 chances, which makes it actually 37%. So assuming she can live through two regular hits, she has a 63% chance of ever attacking. Actual crit rate: 26%. Considering the prevalence of Dazzle, I wouldn't even consider this a factor, though.

I assume you were exaggerating, but I'll say it anyway -- Berserkers are not guaranteed to ORKO any units that have 25+ speed, with the exception of Horsemen. Even if "no one" has maxed braves, you shouldn't default to ignoring the worst case scenario.

I'm not trying to say that Est is bad, but your reasoning is poor. She has access to triangle attacking, and has fairly good stats; both are major benefits. But in the long run, high luck/crit is not going to be the reason she succeeds.

lol i can't even tell what point you were trying to make there, not sure who taught you math but berserker has 21% twice thats chances are higher the second the time so your 37% is completely random, not to mention swordmaster has 42% chance which is double the berserkers so even if your percents made sense, they'd be equal, also berserker has to actually hit her to do damage, (it kind of poses the question why would you attack a SM with a berserker in the first place). But with that set aside, my original reasoning on why she was good had nothing to do with her crit rate. thats just why I like her as a swordsmaster. My opinion is shes good because if you take the time to train her, stats always end up great; so for example you can use secret books on navarre/athena/gordin/radd/merric or any of the generally lower skill members etc rather then her unlike other good swordmasters.

Basically what im saying is because her growths are amazing (even her def turned out on par with navarre), her 20/20 stats require very little boost maintenance. Therefore you can afford to use other units on the team like barst/ogma/merric/navarre etc alot easier who have high hp but require more work to cap all the necessary stats, and not worry about running out of boosters.

basically all the hard work you go through pays off, thats why i think shes good. If you think thats poor reasoning then, well I'm sorry.

And as far as the max brv ax goes all i was saying is if you were willing to spend 210k+/- on a weapon you deserve a medal (unless your hacking). And ya maybe a max brv ax berserker cant always ohko a hero, or another beserker, or warrior but its still the strongest pointman in the game.

the only risk to a non-max brv axe, is the blow to the accuracy, especialy if est has a max mt brv sword (and using a berserker and the dazzle card is reverse synergy and usually doesn't happen in my experience..)

but either way, whether or not you base your claims on averages, or personal experience is completely irrelevant. If you were going to use est you wouldn't leave at 7 def knowing could do better.

Edited April 19, 2010 by XxWolfxX

[Meteor]

If you are NOT basing your claims on averages, what is the point of even discussing this? Nearly every character is good with help. By the way, 7 was a number YOU came up with, not me.

Here is what I have been responding to.

now the question is, what to do with her? now you have a character with rediculous stat growths and dont really know what to do with her.

My vote is swordmaster,

heres my reasoning: adds 10% to her hp growth so you have hopes for breaking 40 hp, and you can make use of the devil sword if you are on a budget. if you can afford it max out a wo-dao/killer edge and she packs an insane critical hit rate ontop of great base damage.

thats just one of many possible uses for her.

You said she should be a Swordmaster for the critical hits, which I was debating; instead, saying she should be used as a Swordmaster/Sniper simply because she has no other good options.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Meteor

[Narga_Rocks]

lol i can't even tell what point you were trying to make there, not sure who taught you math but berserker has 21% twice thats chances are higher the second the time so your 37% is completely random, not to mention swordmaster has 42% chance which is double the berserkers so even if your percents made sense, they'd be equal, also berserker has to actually hit her to do damage, (it kind of poses the question why would you attack a SM with a berserker in the first place).

Tell me something: if a unit has a 21% chance to crit on each attack, and attacks twice, what do you think that his chances are to crit at least once?

btw, it is ~37%, if the 21% is correct. Well, more like 37.59%. I'll tell you why if you doubt us, but the math isn't wrong.

Now, I agree with you on one thing, though: chance to actually hit is important, since if you can't hit then you can't crit. Or at least, that's how it works in most fire emblems.

Now, ignoring the little "can he hit" problem, if Est has a 37% chance to die before she can even attack, then she only has a 63% chance of actually getting off an attack. As a result, her chance of critting drops to ~26%, just like he said. Well, to be more accurate it is 26.2122%. If she's dead then she can't exactly crit the guy, can she?

And thus we are looking at 37.59% vs. 26.2122%. Berserker wins. However, this assumes two things:

1: he has a 100% hit rate

2: he attacks first

So even assuming he attacks first the question of hit rates could spin this in Est's favour anyway.

As a note to people that aren't wolf, though, why are all of you constantly talking averages with him? Maybe you go to wifi with characters at their averages. But have you been reading his posts in other topics? He's clearly not going to leave them at their averages. It's like me with Mist in fe9. If I'm using her, why wouldn't I abuse her str/skl/def so that she can hit stuff hard, reliably, and take little damage in return? This isn't a tier list. This isn't that kind of comparison. This is a known resetter talking about characters, so if you are going to have a conversation with him (in topics he creates) then you might as well speak in his language.

If you are NOT basing your claims on averages, what is the point of even discussing this? Nearly every character is good with help.

Um, to discuss, relatively speaking, just how good they might be under the assumptions of "help", maybe? Some units are easier to abuse than others. I wouldn't have abused Mist's defence had it been 5%. But at (I think) 15% it's much less painful.

[XxWolfxX]

*sigh* heh well at least someone understands what I am saying. I'm not sure I fully understand how you came up with the numbers but hey I don't have to i guess.

Sidenote: just put est in random wifi battle, on a team. Granted the guy might have been a newbie, he had a barst that looked like this: 60/30/0/24/24/20/20/4 (or something to that effect) he had a forged brv ax (im pretty sure the hit obv wasn't maxed) and attacked est after she ohkod their nevarre sniper (which i kind of chuckled at) Barst missed first hit (at 32/80%/21), then reg hit the second one. then i crit ohkoed on the counter attack at 46% crit. So in that match-up it just depends on how much effort/gold you want to invest into your berserker, or your characters for that matter, i just found it ironic that the situation actually happened. even if it was a fluke.

Edited April 20, 2010 by XxWolfxX

[Meteor]

Um, to discuss, relatively speaking, just how good they might be under the assumptions of "help", maybe? Some units are easier to abuse than others. I wouldn't have abused Mist's defence had it been 5%. But at (I think) 15% it's much less painful.

Just how much help are you talking about? And how much help are your opponents giving their units? There is a spectrum starting at average stats, and going all the way to max stats. Any arguments are completely subjective if you're talking about somewhere between the two. That's why I've only been discussing the extrema, because they give definitive numbers.

The discussion wasn't "how good can Est be?" it was "what class should she be?" If we're talking about anything but average stats, she has her choice of any class whatsoever. I chose the route that gave an answer that wasn't "anything lol."

Interesting anecdote, Wolf, but I was only debating the case that you presented, which was her surviving a hit from a Berserker with only 7 Def. Now that you admitted you forgot braves attack twice, we have already reached agreement on this point.

[XxWolfxX]

Just how much help are you talking about? And how much help are your opponents giving their units? There is a spectrum starting at average stats, and going all the way to max stats. Any arguments are completely subjective if you're talking about somewhere between the two. That's why I've only been discussing the extrema, because they give definitive numbers.

The discussion wasn't "how good can Est be?" it was "what class should she be?" If we're talking about anything but average stats, she has her choice of any class whatsoever. I chose the route that gave an answer that wasn't "anything lol."

Interesting anecdote, Wolf, but I was only debating the case that you presented, which was her surviving a hit from a Berserker with only 7 Def. Now that you admitted you forgot braves attack twice, we have already reached agreement on this point.

Note: I apologize that you misunderstood the topic, that actually isn't what the original topic was about. It was meant to about what you (the reader) would use est as if you use her. This seemed to be a common misunderstanding among a few of people that i wasn't looking for advice just what you would use her as and why. It was more discussion thread then an advice thread.

Also Note: I figured out the hardway last night how much damage a "Sniper Est" can do with a max brv bow can do lol.

[Meteor]

Okay, I see. Slight misunderstanding on my part. I request one more clarification upon what you just said: is this question directed at those considering using Est (my interpretation) or only those who are currently using her?

If am correct in choosing the former, any suggestion I gave is exactly how I would choose to use her.

Hopefully you know I am not arguing with you intending simply to pick a fight or tell you how to play the game. Rather, I was debating your examples because they would contradict my logic if they were true.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Meteor

[XxWolfxX]

well, considering your statement, "if you must use est...", that doesn't imply you would actually use her. Setting that technicality aside, if you read it carefully, I said: "What would you use her as if you would?"

which implies past, present, future. and if you have no interest in using her then why are you reading this topic in the first place other then trolling. (just in general not you specifically)

At the time, though it wasn't obvious I wasn't finished leveling her, so I speculated a very possible scenerio, (though i understand now it may be rare now) and then i proceeded to say it may just be rubbish due to never encountering said scenerio. At that time you basically ripped apart everything I said completely ignoring it the fact that it was infact a speculation and not based on anything.

Afterwards I realised that even I had underestimated her maximum potential and my ending est, was better then my Navarre/Athena/Palla/ogma/barst aswell as other main psyical attackers (in regards to the amount of stat that capped/or almost capped). The only character that turned out "better" was Catria due her having 56 hp and 24 def at the end and capping str/ski/spd and having 27 luck (god i hate getting odd numbers it feels like a waste of a point.) note: as a dracoknight.

Then I proved that my scenerio is possible with my est at 58/24/1/29/30/30/20/xx <-- (forgot res.)

so while I value your argument it is based on a slightly less realistic extreme, yet like mine still very possible.

I hope that fills in any blanks you still have.

[Meteor]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have been considering using Est, so the topic was of interest; mostly to see if others shared my conclusions.

I was confirming that your speculation was incorrect. I do apologize if it came off as harsh. Also your scenario was different than what you actually encountered (+13 Def, non-maxed hit brave). With only 7 Def, she would rely on a miss to survive, whereas your actual Est would have lived as long as there was no crit. Basically, what I disagreed with is different than what actually happened to you.

What I said is extreme, I do agree. I also stated that you would be wise to consider the worst-case, no matter how unlikely. It will happen eventually and you want to be prepared.

[XxWolfxX]

All things said and done, my experience using her has revealed that while swordmaster and sniper take advantage of her shortcomings, a falco/dracoknight/paladin scout may also work. With her capping str/ski/spd/luk basically 99.9% of the time she is optimal unit imo if you are using units on your team that otherwise require the stat boosters. (ie barst, navarre, athena, palla, merric, linde, ogma etc) that way you can spare a couple draco shields/seraph robes on her and still have enough of every thing else that is required, to go around. To me that seems like a logically sound reason as to why to use Est on a wifi team.

Edited April 20, 2010 by XxWolfxX

[Ansem]

Epic Phoenix Wright moment

I just realized something

You said something about how you can train Est or any character to level 20 and the will be good

You arena abuse them as you said before

This could have been possible on Emulator but your playing on a DS

How do i know this?

This is a Wifi topic

Either way using Est in Wifi is a disadvantage because you cant train her up to level 20 then promote her in that time range.

Though i could be wrong somewhere but are you really training them up to level 20?

[XxWolfxX]

Epic Phoenix Wright moment

I just realized something

You said something about how you can train Est or any character to level 20 and the will be good

You arena abuse them as you said before

This could have been possible on Emulator but your playing on a DS

How do i know this?

This is a Wifi topic

Either way using Est in Wifi is a disadvantage because you cant train her up to level 20 then promote her in that time range.

Though i could be wrong somewhere but are you really training them up to level 20?

I can't even pretend that made sense. The stage you get her in has an arena you train her til level 20 to get her skill, spd, luck to 18-20. strength will be 14-16 in my experience and her def was 10 and hp was 30. after battle class swap her anything besides mage/cleric and finish her. The map where you fight camus also has arena. the trick is get her to level 20/15 then battle save that way only resetting 5 levels as opposed to 20.

I'm almost afraid to ask what logic there was in that statement if any.

edit: and if your referring to how fast i can do it with her amazing growths it wasn't exactly hard considering she starts off doubling everything besides a 1000+ myrmidon/merc

Edited April 21, 2010 by XxWolfxX

[Ansem]

So your saying that you beat the whole arena without her dying once?

Then again i guess you dont know what an emu is

And i made that statement was clear enough so you could read it

Edited April 21, 2010 by Kai-Sama