Paragon, Blossom, and Nihil

[Adam Smasher]

So I'm currently playing 3E, and Nolan just threw his tomahawk at Brom to whom I gave Paragon. Brom couldn't return fire, so he would normally get 1XP, but Paragon would give him 2XP, unless Nihil cancels it. Well, in case you ever wonder about things like this, Paragon supercedes Nihil.

Also, for the lulz, I gave Blossom to Sigrun and Blossom's XP penalties were still active when she attacked Nolan as well.

[BK-201]

Maybe that Blossom and Paragon take place after Nihil? Or maybe that Nihil negates Battle skills, which probably excludes those.

[ReformBlade]

Yeah, Nihil negates skills that effect battle.

Soo... Masteries, Adept, Resolve, Vantage, etc.

EDIT: Nihil: Negates enemy's battle skills. Taken from the Skills tab in the RD section...

Edited April 18, 2010 by SlaveBlade

[Kazfiel]

'Negates combat related skills.'

Paragon is not combat related, but it's for after the battle, so it should activate.

[Adam Smasher]

I wonder if it negates canto or the crit+ skills?

[Ether]

I`m not sure about Canto,but if you watch GoldieX39`s vs battles,all of the characters have Nihil and +crit classes still have their crit.I can`t speak for canto though.

[The_Wolf_Prince]

Nihil does not affect Canto.

[Integrity]

Remember, with all this talk about Nihil, all bosses with Mantle effectively have Nihil too. Remember Cantoing the Ashera Wards?

:P

[whase]

canto isn't a battle skill.

+crit skills are, so I'm surprised Nihil doesn't negate those~

wait... Nihil is a battle skill too, right?...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'm not surprised that Nihil doesn't negate crits since all those under "Class Skills" are obviously just old class attributes labeled to make them more apparent to the players.

Nihil canceling an opponent's Nihil would probably be more beneficial to the player.

[Integrity]

Nihil canceling an opponent's Nihil would be hilarious because I could see my little Shinon 1RKOing Ashera, which is just wrong.

[Silith]

Nihil cancels skills during the battle phase. Exp gain is done seperate after the battle has resolved and won't be affected by Nihil.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Sadly Nihil doesnt cancel the enemy's Nihil. How many times have you fought BK and you see "Nihil" at the bottom of the screen but BK does the same thing to Ike? Yeah...I think if it did cancel the opponent's Nihil, we would have a severe game breaker on hand!

[Adam Smasher]

Well then you have a paradox on your hands if it's Nihil vs. Nihil.

Would attacker cancel defender or vice versa?

Would they both cancel each other? But then the cancelling Nihil would itself be cancelled and thus both would be active.

In conclusion, both = neither. And if that makes sense to you, I have some snake oil that I can give you a great price on...

[Nitrodon]

Perhaps more surprisingly, Nihil also doesn't negate the dragon skills (Blood Tide, Night Tide, and White Pool).

[Rewjeo]

Maybe that's because those skills are linked to the dragons, not the unit itself? Does anyone know if Nihil affects Daunt?

[BK-201]

When you attack, BEFORE entering battle animation the tides and daunt will activate, my guess on daunt is no, it won't be affected by nihil.

[NinjaMonkey]

Sadly Nihil doesnt cancel the enemy's Nihil. How many times have you fought BK and you see "Nihil" at the bottom of the screen but BK does the same thing to Ike? Yeah...I think if it did cancel the opponent's Nihil, we would have a severe game breaker on hand!

If that happened, I'd be more worried about Ike facing an Eclipse in 4E2...

[Kazfiel]

Only the skills of the enemy are negated, but skills from others, like Blood Tide aren't negated. Only skills from the enemy are negated during a battle.

[Narga_Rocks]

Perhaps more surprisingly, Nihil also doesn't negate the dragon skills (Blood Tide, Night Tide, and White Pool).

That shouldn't be a surprise:

When you attack, BEFORE entering battle animation the tides and daunt will activate, my guess on daunt is no, it won't be affected by nihil.

the dragon skills activate before nihil gets a chance. Hence

Maybe that's because those skills are linked to the dragons, not the unit itself? Does anyone know if Nihil affects Daunt?

Daunt would have to work as well since it follows the same principle.

Only the skills of the enemy are negated, but skills from others, like Blood Tide aren't negated. Only skills from the enemy are negated during a battle.

Except Daunt could be on whatever unit is the enemy and it would still work. Ditto paragon, actually.

[Fayt Zelpher]

When you attack, BEFORE entering battle animation the tides and daunt will activate, my guess on daunt is no, it won't be affected by nihil.

Actually, there isn't even an activation for the tide abilities. If you look on the status screen, units next to the dragon will have the relevant +5 bonuses even when not in battle. Therefore, it's actually fair to say that the tides are static (always on) abilities.

I assume that Daunt (and Blossom and Paragon) is also a static ability.

So Nihil can't prevent them from working because it only negates activated abilities (and none of those abilities are activated).

I imagine that you see the double-nihil activation because the game codes Nihil in the same manner (that is, Nihil is a static ability as well).

Does that make ANY sense whatsoever?

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually, there isn't even an activation for the tide abilities. If you look on the status screen, units next to the dragon will have the relevant +5 bonuses even when not in battle. Therefore, it's actually fair to say that the tides are static (always on) abilities.

I assume that Daunt (and Blossom and Paragon) is also a static ability.

So Nihil can't prevent them from working because it only negates activated abilities (and none of those abilities are activated).

I imagine that you see the double-nihil activation because the game codes Nihil in the same manner (that is, Nihil is a static ability as well).

Does that make ANY sense whatsoever?

You could use "Passive" instead of "static".

Passive vs. Active. Nihil blocks any "Active", or "Activated" abilities, but does not block Passive ones.

So question about PoR: any idea if Nihil blocks that? Probably need to use Calill vs. Tauroneo before recruiting him. Resolve was basically passive in that game because it was like an "always on" ability in that it noticeably affected your stats outside of battle. It does not work the same in RD because it needs to be "activated" and hence Nihil blocks it. Makes you wish it worked like in PoR, eh? Then anyone could double auras and Degh (though they'd die on the counter if they aren't like Mordy or Cain or Giffca (two of which double anyway).

But yeah, Paragon and Daunt and Dragon skills and +Crit skills and Form/Half shift and other skills like it are all "Passive" abilities. They simply "are".

[Ether]

Even better.In POR Didn't resolve actually give the Str bonus it says it gives?

[Fayt Zelpher]

You could use "Passive" instead of "static".

But yeah, Paragon and Daunt and Dragon skills and +Crit skills and Form/Half shift and other skills like it are all "Passive" abilities. They simply "are".

Sorry, Passive was probably the better term but I was thinking of MTG terminology, which refers to such abilities as 'static' abilities...

In other words, Nihil will only be able to counter abilities that could activate during a battle. And it would make sense that Nihil is itself a passive ability (which would mean that an opponent's nihil doesn't cancel your own - as seen in the game itself)

EDIT:

@Ether, yes, you do get +50% Str in PoR when in Resolve health.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Fayt Zelpher

[Silith]

So I still wonder wheter Gamble which activates before Nihil would add crit % on an mantle enemy. Or would the added crit% be negated too?

If things in this topic up to now are to be true it would halve your accuracy and then negate all crit including the Gamble Crit.