Avoid playing this game?

[Rodykitty]

Frey didn't appear because he dies at the fort, obviously.

The other new characters don't appear because the Gaiden chapters don't exist in FE3.

Also, FE5 has proven that IS does whatever they please when adding new characters to canon. Why the complaints about new stuff, I don't know, it sounds ridiculously spoiled.

[dondon151]

I found this pretty funny (though someone pointed it out already):

FESD is more eye candy gameplay

Edited May 18, 2010 by dondon151

[Junkhead]

Frey didn't appear because he dies at the fort, obviously.

I didn't play much of it, but that sounds reasonable. Thank you.

I found this pretty funny (though someone pointed it out already):

I assume you disagree...?

[dondon151]

Gameplay cannot be "eye candy." Gameplay is the entire point of a game.

[Colonel M]

You know what is eye-candy though?

*Erhem*. Anyway, yeah. Honestly, if you're playing a Fire Emblem game for it's story... you're not really playing "Fire Emblem." To be honest, Fire Emblem is known more for it's gameplay. Don't turn down FEDS because of the storyline is what I'm getting at. H5 can actually put a challenge on newcomers.

[Parrhesia]

And the real bitch is that I STILL haven't seen it anywhere.

[Junkhead]

Gameplay cannot be "eye candy." Gameplay is the entire point of a game.

By "eye candy" I meant that it's too loaded on game content, at least on not many important things, also what Colonel stated, while forgetting what fans will actually prefer, such as actual support conversations and less-generic characters, IS should've learned enough from FE10's lack of non-generic supports.

FE is ctually more praised by its characters, reason why fans complain over FE10 and SD sometimes even though their gameplay is really ideal.

Anyhow, there isn't a reason why you shouldn't play FESD, I just don't find it too apealing (That being just my opinion), but the replay value must be great.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Soul

[Rodykitty]

By "eye candy" I meant that it's too loaded on game content, at least on not many important things

Game content is bad and unimportant now?

forgetting what fans will actually prefer,

I am a fan, and I prefer an SNES style game. You can't speak as if I am irrelevant.

While FEDS does not have support conversations, it does have strengths where other FE games lack. Its qualities are better geared towards a hardcore gamer and we suggest it for those gamers.

[Junkhead]

Game content is bad and unimportant now?

No, but not balancing between gameplay ideas and story ideas is not all good, it's not that everyone prefers gameplay over story, I don't either, but it would be good if there were a balance between them. FESD is passable I suppose, it's a remake of the first FE.

I am a fan, and I prefer an SNES style game. You can't speak as if I am irrelevant.

While FEDS does not have support conversations, it does have strengths where other FE games lack. Its qualities are better geared towards a hardcore gamer and we suggest it for those gamers.

But I can't speak for YOU in specific, it was in general.

Or, instead of having five different HMs they could've reduced it to two, making the first HM have H2s difficulty while giving the last one H5s difficulty. When I complain about it having many HMs, it's not because I think it's bad, it's mostly because of how exagerated it is when H1-H3 don't make much of a difference.

[Rodykitty]

No, but not balancing between gameplay ideas and story ideas is not all good, it's not that everyone prefers gameplay over story, I don't either, but it would be good if there were a balance between them. FESD is passable I suppose, it's a remake of the first FE.

Balance between gameplay and story would be FE10. I know FE10 has crappy supports, but that's not the entirety of a story.

Or, instead of having five different HMs they could've reduced it to two, making the first HM have H2s difficulty while giving the last one H5s difficulty. When I complain about it having many HMs, it's not because I think it's bad, it's mostly because of how exagerated it is when H1-H3 don't make much of a difference.

We already went though how the addition of more difficulty modes is inconsequential and actually better for encouraging H5 to be as hard as it is.

[Junkhead]

Balance between gameplay and story would be FE10. I know FE10 has crappy supports, but that's not the entirety of a story.

I'm going to have to disagree and say it's actualy FE9, the support system is great, and everyone supporting everyone is pretty unrealistic. The plot was great and the characters were well-developed.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

TC should just rent the game or emulate to try it in order to get the most accurate opinion on whether or not he should play the game.

[Ike-Mike]

FE3 sold the most in Japan, and I have no idea why.

Because people prefer their games to be simple and straightforward, even if it's FE.

[Colonel M]

TC should just rent the game or emulate to try it in order to get the most accurate opinion on whether or not he should play the game.

But then that means he's playing the game!

Though in all seriousness, try it before you rag on it.

[Violet]

*Erhem*. Anyway, yeah. Honestly, if you're playing a Fire Emblem game for it's story... you're not really playing "Fire Emblem." To be honest, Fire Emblem is known more for it's gameplay. Don't turn down FEDS because of the storyline is what I'm getting at. H5 can actually put a challenge on newcomers.

In America maybe. Over here in Europe and Japan we actually care about the story just as much, if not more so. I've always been weirded out by the way the American fanbase is SO obsessed with the statistics. Maybe its because you have an inherant disconnection with feudal era stories, unlike Europe and Japan, whos histories are based on them? I think Fire Emblem games, even Shadow Dragon, have better plots than a vast number of other games out there. Shadow Dragon is simple because its based on the NES game pretty faithfully, which was already very simple compared to other FE games.Its good though to see how far we've come. But take the two Radiance games and you have a pretty epic, grown up RPG story, and that's the main reason I personally play them.

You can somehow claim I'm not playing "Fire Emblem", but its also been said that the Japanese players mainly care about the story and characters more than anything else. Maybe that's why American players are always complaining about balance and stuff like that? Because the country of origin... doesn't actually care about that. I mean, if they ever cared solely about balance then Ike and Aether wouldn't exist.

That said, Shadow Dragon is almost pure gameplay and that's why I enjoy replaying it more than the other FE games. The story surrounding Camus is great at least.

[Rewjeo]

I usually play for the story the first time around. After that, I focus more on the game since I KNOW the story.

[AceNoctali]

In America maybe. Over here in Europe and Japan we actually care about the story just as much, if not more so. I've always been weirded out by the way the American fanbase is SO obsessed with the statistics. Maybe its because you have an inherant disconnection with feudal era stories, unlike Europe and Japan, whos histories are based on them? I think Fire Emblem games, even Shadow Dragon, have better plots than a vast number of other games out there. Shadow Dragon is simple because its based on the NES game pretty faithfully, which was already very simple compared to other FE games.Its good though to see how far we've come. But take the two Radiance games and you have a pretty epic, grown up RPG story, and that's the main reason I personally play them.

You can somehow claim I'm not playing "Fire Emblem", but its also been said that the Japanese players mainly care about the story and characters more than anything else. Maybe that's why American players are always complaining about balance and stuff like that? Because the country of origin... doesn't actually care about that. I mean, if they ever cared solely about balance then Ike and Aether wouldn't exist.

That said, Shadow Dragon is almost pure gameplay and that's why I enjoy replaying it more than the other FE games. The story surrounding Camus is great at least.

You've got a good point that I approve (except for the America bashing, which I feel could have been avoided, and that's a European speaking here). European and Japanese players seems to care more for storyline than American players.

However, I feel this isn't the real problem, as I've seen a number of American players loving the storylines and characters during all those years in the FE community. No, the real problem is that the community, and particulary the American one, has changed : it mostly shifted from a "let's having fun with the games both on gameplay and storyline" mentality to a Stop Having Fun Guys mentality. See the growing number of debates with battle of numbers and stats ; in the times of the FESS Forums (aside from its late time), they weren't as proeminent.

IMO, this change in mentality comes from those facts :

* the veteran players have milked up the games for all its worth and are trying to keep up the flame by doing this,

* there's a shift in generation players-wise, and the new players are more focuses in the Stop Having Fun Guys mentality than the former generation.

Then again, those who participate in FE forums are mostly hardcore FE gamers : we don't know the opinion of the more casual players (although the series is niche - it's difficult nowadays to find old Western FE games such as FE7 in stores -, so I wonder if that part of casual gamers is significant enough). Maybe they don't have this competitive mentality and play the games for both the gameplay and the storyline.

Just my two cents on this issue, that's something that always bothered me when watching the community : since one or two years ago, I have a hard time recognizing myself in it with this mentality shift. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I'm participating less and less in it, aside from the fact I'm focusing my interests more and more towards the Tokimemo and MitsuKni franchises nowadays.

[Violet]

I wasn't really trying to bash America, just making some points about the differences with the fanbase. I've always focused much more on the story, so much so that I tend not to replay the games after sinking 60 hours into them. They're RPGs to me, and as they're massive time sinks my only reasons for replaying them is to see parts of the game I missed, like secret chapters or support conversations. Trying to get a good rank or max out the levels of anyone other than the Lords is all well and good but its not a big deal to me.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed this shift in mentality. Maybe its simply a result of Shadow Dragon having very minimal story? Maybe when the sequel rolls around, people will engage with the characters a bit more again. I'm not exactly active in the fanbase as I pretty much spread myself across every Nintendo game you can think of, but my focus is on characters, artwork, the manga, story and translations of the games, as opposed to maxing out statistics and things like that. I think of Fire Emblem as RPGs and I play them in the same way I would play the Paper Mario games.

Meanwhile, I'm off to create a Fire Emblem themed Microgame in WarioWare. Got a great idea for one.

[Interceptor]

I don't mean to interrupt your confirmation bias session, where you both lament about something that doesn't actually exist, however:

Stop Having Fun Guys

... this is an invalid use of the trope. The FE fanbase is not populated by assholes who shit all over other people's playstyles. There is a greater concentration of elite players, as the casuals have all moved on to WoW and/or Barbie's Magical Rollercoaster Ride, but that's not the same thing.

[AceNoctali]

I don't mean to interrupt your confirmation bias session, where you both lament about something that doesn't actually exist, however:

... this is an invalid use of the trope. The FE fanbase is not populated by assholes who shit all over other people's playstyles. There is a greater concentration of elite players, as the casuals have all moved on to WoW and/or Barbie's Magical Rollercoaster Ride, but that's not the same thing.

Her-herm. The trope is valid. I've seen countless times people being bashed for liking using Lakche over Shannan, or shot down when they dare say it's okay to use Holsety!Corple. They're not the competitive choice of course, but it's the player's choice if they want to use them. After all, the same competitive FE4 players all agree that Ranked Run is broken in this game (notably because of the EXP rank), so why restricting yourself on a so-called competitive basis here ?

That said, IMPORTANT NOTE : I haven't said all people are asshole. I just think a bunch of poeple here has lost the principle of this game, as it works on a main gimmick compared to other strategy games : the permanent loss of characters which have their own specialities and personnalities. So in short, the FE series run with the idea that should feel for your characters.

Edited May 28, 2010 by AceNoctali

[Interceptor]

Her-herm. The trope is valid.

The trope is valid; your use of it is not. By its own description, the person it describes is one that criticizes someone with a different playstyle. This distinction is important, as it defines a difference between and elitist asshole and people who are just very good at min/maxing without being jerks.

I've seen countless times people being bashed for liking using Lakche over Shannan, or shot down when they dare say it's okay to use Holsety!Corple. They're not the competitive choice of course, but it's the player's choice if they want to use them. After all, the same competitive FE4 players all agree that Ranked Run is broken in this game (notably because of the EXP rank), so why restricting yourself on a so-called competitive basis here ?

FE4 wasn't even released outside of Japan, so your example already has a terminal case of Irrelevancy. But in any case, I'd say it's likely that you are conflating two different things. I will use Radiant Dawn as an example, because fuck FE4.

Simulation #1

Interceptor: I like Soren! He's so dark and emo, and I love giving him tons of BEXP and a support with his best friend Ike. He is fun to use and I always include him in my playthroughs!

Community: Hey, that's cool! We like <insert character> because of <some reason>! Marry us, Interceptor!

Simulation #2

Interceptor: I like Soren! He always doubles everything, hits like a truck, and never dies! Best Sage in the game!

Community: PEMN. Soren isn't the best Sage in the game, you ignorant fucktard. Characters X, Y, and Z are demonstrably better because of <tl;dr full of stats>.

I'll bet a bat turd to a shiny silver dollar that you're defending the idiot in Simulation #2. Sorry, but he's a dumbass. In reality, I've found that the FE community is pretty tolerant of alternative playstyles so long as you avoid asserting things that are untrue. We all have our favorite characters that are terrible, or playthroughs that are weird. I like Mist, I use her a lot, yet people don't shit all over me for it, maybe it has something to do with the fact that I don't say she's better than Tibarn with a rocket launcher and a eyepatch.

[AceNoctali]

The trope is valid; your use of it is not. By its own description, the person it describes is one that criticizes someone with a different playstyle. This distinction is important, as it defines a difference between and elitist asshole and people who are just very good at min/maxing without being jerks.

FE4 wasn't even released outside of Japan, so your example already has a terminal case of Irrelevancy. But in any case, I'd say it's likely that you are conflating two different things. I will use Radiant Dawn as an example, because fuck FE4.

Simulation #1

Interceptor: I like Soren! He's so dark and emo, and I love giving him tons of BEXP and a support with his best friend Ike. He is fun to use and I always include him in my playthroughs!

Community: Hey, that's cool! We like <insert character> because of <some reason>! Marry us, Interceptor!

Simulation #2

Interceptor: I like Soren! He always doubles everything, hits like a truck, and never dies! Best Sage in the game!

Community: PEMN. Soren isn't the best Sage in the game, you ignorant fucktard. Characters X, Y, and Z are demonstrably better because of <tl;dr full of stats>.

I'll bet a bat turd to a shiny silver dollar that you're defending the idiot in Simulation #2. Sorry, but he's a dumbass. In reality, I've found that the FE community is pretty tolerant of alternative playstyles so long as you avoid asserting things that are untrue. We all have our favorite characters that are terrible, or playthroughs that are weird. I like Mist, I use her a lot, yet people don't shit all over me for it, maybe it has something to do with the fact that I don't say she's better than Tibarn with a rocket launcher and a eyepatch.

I can't talk for Radiant Dawn, it's the only game in the series I haven't played, because I don't own a Wii (for the time being. I bought the game though, not only for collection but also because FE games are horribly difficult to get in my country a few months after their release).

I used the FE4 example, because it's the game I know about the best both game-wise and fandom-wise.

Sorry to say this, but I've seen in the past instances where even on situation 1, people were bashed. That said, I agree that when gushing about your characters, you shouldn't say they're the best at everything and being a troll, that's just asking for flaming. You don't have to go all statistical whore to prove your point either, just point out a couple of simple flaws and the trick is done.

IMO, a problem the FE community has is that it's because it's becoming more and more elitist, that it's slowly becoming less and less attractive to eventual newcomers. I agree that's not the main problem (IMO, it's rather the lack of new games, having two remakes in a row is proof of it), but just a weenie bit more focus on storyline to counter-balance gameplay debates and such wouldn't hurt, as we're more a generalist forum like, for taking Pokémon exemple, Serebii.net, than a competitive forum like Smogon (well, I perceive it as such. I may be in the wrong, grizzled old FE player as I am). And there's still much to discover about the game's storyline, especially with the JPN-only games, just see VincentASM's recently translated FE4 Designer's Notes.

Edited May 28, 2010 by AceNoctali

[Interceptor]

Sorry to say this, but I've seen in the past instances where even on situation 1, people were bashed. That said, I agree that when gushing about your characters, you shouldn't say they're the best at everything and being a troll, that's just asking for flaming. You don't have to go all statistical whore to prove your point either, just point out a couple of simple flaws and the trick is done.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, I'm saying that you're exaggerating. There's always going to be some d-bag that replies to an innocent "I like Ilyana because she's always hungry and that's funny" with The Rage<tm> about how Illy-chan is a terrible character and that the OP is a bad person for even deploying her. But this is not, in my experience, the norm.

IMO, a problem the FE community has is that it's because it's becoming more and more elitist, that it's slowly becoming less and less attractive to eventual newcomers.

I disagree. As soon as a fresh FE comes out -- aka not a remake on an old continent -- we're all going to be newbies again, and the cycle begins anew. It happened with Radiant Dawn, did it not? Much of the conventional wisdom during the early stages of that game has been consigned to the dustbin of history. Probably the same thing happened for Path Of Radiance, though I wasn't around for that.

[Violet]

Simulation #2

Interceptor: I like Soren! He always doubles everything, hits like a truck, and never dies! Best Sage in the game!

Community: PEMN. Soren isn't the best Sage in the game, you ignorant fucktard. Characters X, Y, and Z are demonstrably better because of <tl;dr full of stats>.

There's your problem. You're calling him an ignorant fucktard and throwing stats at him, even though the only thing he said was that he's the best Sage in the game. He DOES double everything, he DOES hit like a truck, and in my experience he also rarely if ever dies. He's not much different from how he was in PoR. In fact, given that I've only played through the game once, as is the case for a lot of regular gamers I expect, I would of said he was the best Sage in the game, aside from Micaiah. This is just my knowledge of it, because I didn't really use anyone else. Ilyana was okay but I didn't use her much, Tormod vanished for half of the game, and Sanaki isn't a Sage.

What makes the community elitist is assuming that everyone knows every intricate detail about growth rates and... tier lists (although the idea of a tier list in RD seems to be missing the point). Sometimes people just go on what they see. They shouldn't be belittled for it. Just correct them without being an ass.

Oh, and making snide comments about us happening to agree with each other? Really? Agreement is bad now?

[Ike-Mike]

You can somehow claim I'm not playing "Fire Emblem", but its also been said that the Japanese players mainly care about the story and characters more than anything else.

... eh?

I've got the impression that the Japanese don't care for the characterization as much as the main story and that the core FE gameplay is solid and fleshed out.

Oh and there's a reason why I've been using "my elitism is better than yours" as the FE fandom slogan for a while.