Avoid playing this game?

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

There's your problem. You're calling him an ignorant fucktard and throwing stats at him, even though the only thing he said was that he's the best Sage in the game. He DOES double everything, he DOES hit like a truck, and in my experience he also rarely if ever dies. He's not much different from how he was in PoR. In fact, given that I've only played through the game once, as is the case for a lot of regular gamers I expect, I would of said he was the best Sage in the game, aside from Micaiah. This is just my knowledge of it, because I didn't really use anyone else. Ilyana was okay but I didn't use her much, Tormod vanished for half of the game, and Sanaki isn't a Sage.

What makes the community elitist is assuming that everyone knows every intricate detail about growth rates and... tier lists (although the idea of a tier list in RD seems to be missing the point). Sometimes people just go on what they see. They shouldn't be belittled for it. Just correct them without being an ass.

Oh, and making snide comments about us happening to agree with each other? Really? Agreement is bad now?

18 speed only doubles generals on HM. And it has a hard time doubling enemies on Normal as well. He's very reliant on favoritism/transfers to get speed. Their are tricks like early crowning that do help him out and once he has the speed he is pretty good.

Anyway aside from proving you wrong in a polite fashion I will say this... Most tier debaters stay out of common topics except to correct certain mistakes like I did above. And they usually do it in a polite fashion.

Edit: Also I'd like to address something you may have seen in the new mystery boards. I never once addressed anyone but fellow tier debaters in all of my arguments. For the most we only fight amongst ourselves and only crush those who come into the tier topics and act like interceptor mentioned in situation 2.

Edit2: Don't openly challenge tier debaters. Specifically Interceptor. He will crush you effortlessly.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Mr. Francis York Morgan

[Interceptor]

There's your problem. You're calling him an ignorant fucktard and throwing stats at him, even though the only thing he said was that he's the best Sage in the game.

Just throwing it out there, the "he" is that example was a guy named "Interceptor". That's me. I know, I know: it has 11 letters and four syllables. But, it's still an English word, so I figure that should help.

He DOES double everything, he DOES hit like a truck, and in my experience he also rarely if ever dies.

Alas, this is only situationally true. I could get into the gritty details, but suffice it to say that Soren is not doubling consistently outside of Normal/Easy mode, and even in Normal mode getting him to double requires more than just a neat trick. Having 18 AS with a 35% SPD growth in Part 3 is balls. There's shit that doubles YOU. Similar things apply to the other two statements. Enemies in RD have non-zero RES stats, and Soren's HP/DEF/LCK is terrible no matter which way you slice it.

Point is, I picked that situation primarily because it's easy to refute the assertions.

What makes the community elitist is assuming that everyone knows every intricate detail about growth rates and... tier lists (although the idea of a tier list in RD seems to be missing the point). Sometimes people just go on what they see. They shouldn't be belittled for it. Just correct them without being an ass.

There is a difference between elitists, and jerkbag elitists. There are certainly a lot of elite players in the community, which should come as no surprise given that quite a bit is now known about these games, and the casuals have largely moved on. But jerkbags, they do their thing regardless of the situation: they are jerkbags.

There is some overlap, naturally. I can draw you a Venn diagram if it will help.

Oh, and making snide comments about us happening to agree with each other? Really? Agreement is bad now?

I made snide comments because you were both agreeing on something ridiculous. If you were agreeing on, say, the fact that kittens are cute, I probably would not have said anything.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Interceptor

[AceNoctali]

I made snide comments because you were both agreeing on something ridiculous. If you were agreeing on, say, the fact that kittens are cute, I probably would not have said anything.

No, the fact we were agreeing upon, aka the western FE community as of now, especially the American one, is more focused on competitive view, stats, and gameplay debates, is true. Case in point, the French forums dedicated to Fire Emblem are not focused on character tiers and debates. The topics there are more geared towards general gameplay questions and storyline. As for Japan, the few BBS boards I've seen aren't as much focused on tiers and such either.

[Interceptor]

One of the facts that you were agreeing upon, which you will note that I did not dispute. Obviously, cultural differences exist. This largely explains why Japan gives us RPGS-on-rails with gender-confused, effeminate male leads. This is what they like.

My issue was not with that. It was with the "mentality" point, specifically your mis-use of a trope.

[AceNoctali]

One of the facts that you were agreeing upon, which you will note that I did not dispute. Obviously, cultural differences exist. This largely explains why Japan gives us RPGS-on-rails with gender-confused, effeminate male leads. This is what they like.

My issue was not with that. It was with the "mentality" point, specifically your mis-use of a trope.

Again, no, my point on the mentality shift is true. Were you there in the times of the FESS forums between 2003 and 2007, especially 2003 to 2005 ? I don't think so, since you said earlier you weren't around during the Path of Radiance time. And I can guarantee you the mentality wasn't as focused on competitive matters as now.

Maybe I haven't used the trope correctly enough, as I don't believe debaters are jerks here. But I'm betting their elitism is still IMO driving away eventual new and/or casual players. Ike-Mike say it best : the FE Fandom looks like a competition of who's elitism is better as of now. IMO, it rather should be a relaxed place to talk about our fave series as the FE series is.

Edited May 28, 2010 by AceNoctali

[Interceptor]

Maybe I haven't used the trope correctly enough, as I don't believe debaters are jerks here.

That's what it means. You linked it, you own the argument. If you don't believe that the elitists are also jerkfaces to people with different playstyles, then pick a better term to describe what you're talking about.

But I'm betting their elitism is still IMO driving away eventual new and/or casual players. Ike-Mike say it best : the FE Fandom looks like a competition of who's elitism is better as of now, instead of being a relaxed place to talk about our fave series as the FE series is.

The casuals drive themselves away: they are casuals. The elitism of the community is a natural evolution: the lifers get better at the game, the others get bored or distracted by a shiny object and drop off. What the shit is there even to discuss about something like Path of Radiance at this point? The game came out almost five goddamn years ago, every interesting bit of dialogue and story has been picked clean.

Never mind that even participating in a forum on the Interbutts about some video game already puts you far apart from Joe Blow. What percentage of total Shadow Dragon players are participants here? One hundredth of one percent? Give me a break.

[AceNoctali]

That's what it means. You linked it, you own the argument. If you don't believe that the elitists are also jerkfaces to people with different playstyles, then pick a better term to describe what you're talking about.

M'well, misuse of the trope aside, the point still is : mentality has shifted towards a competitive turn, it's mainly present in the American part of the community, and for a regular player (aka not a pathetic noob, but not a stat freak either) fan of the series such as me, that puts me a bit ill at ease.

The casuals drive themselves away: they are casuals. The elitism of the community is a natural evolution: the lifers get better at the game, the others get bored or distracted by a shiny object and drop off. What the shit is there even to discuss about something like Path of Radiance at this point? The game came out almost five goddamn years ago, every interesting bit of dialogue and story has been picked clean.

So I'm a casual, or sort of, and yet I still am in the FE community (admittedly not as much, but still am). I don't think all FE casuals are as vain as you describe them, just like you were defending yourself saying that not all elitists are jerkasses.

I admit there isn't much to discuss about the Tellius Saga anymore, but what about the JPN-only sagas ? There's still a bunch of storyline data to discover and mysteries to talk about. Hell, even Elibe saga still has some potential, and don't forget the BS games. Okay, a good part of those data are in Japanese, but don't you think it would be interesting to attract casual FE gamers with Japanese knowledge, to get those datas ? And we have the luck to have on these forums members that translate FE stuff too. Competitive elitism isn't all to make the FE community rich.

Never mind that even participating in a forum on the Interbutts about some video game already puts you far apart from Joe Blow. What percentage of total Shadow Dragon players are participants here? One hundredth of one percent? Give me a break.

Point irrelevent. This goes for every game community, not just for Fire Emblem. Not everyone in the world has Internet to start with. So there's casual player (without Internet connexion, aka the majority) and casual player (with Internet connexion, aka the minority).

Edited May 28, 2010 by AceNoctali

[_____]

Just nitpicking here. Saying that any part of a group that doesn't have the Internet readily available is a majority of said group is just plain wrong, unless you're referring to, like, the Amish.

[AceNoctali]

Just nitpicking here. Saying that any part of a group that doesn't have the Internet readily available is a majority of said group is just plain wrong, unless you're referring to, like, the Amish.

Then again, would the Amish use and play console games ? :P

[_____]

True.

[dondon151]

There's your problem. You're calling him an ignorant fucktard and throwing stats at him, even though the only thing he said was that he's the best Sage in the game. He DOES double everything, he DOES hit like a truck, and in my experience he also rarely if ever dies. He's not much different from how he was in PoR. In fact, given that I've only played through the game once, as is the case for a lot of regular gamers I expect, I would of said he was the best Sage in the game, aside from Micaiah. This is just my knowledge of it, because I didn't really use anyone else. Ilyana was okay but I didn't use her much, Tormod vanished for half of the game, and Sanaki isn't a Sage.

What makes the community elitist is assuming that everyone knows every intricate detail about growth rates and... tier lists (although the idea of a tier list in RD seems to be missing the point). Sometimes people just go on what they see. They shouldn't be belittled for it. Just correct them without being an ass.

Oh, and making snide comments about us happening to agree with each other? Really? Agreement is bad now?

The world is flat. Disprove me and you are being elitist.

[Interceptor]

M'well, misuse of the trope aside [...]

That aside, there's nothing else. I already said that I don't dispute the point about cultural differences, a cursory glance at communities is evidence of that.

So I'm a casual, or sort of, and yet I still am in the FE community (admittedly not as much, but still am). I don't think all FE casuals are as vain as you describe them, just like you were defending yourself saying that not all elitists are jerkasses.

Not only did I not call casuals "vain", but what I did say about them wasn't a blanket statement meant to encompass them all. There are some around here, there are not as many as there used to be. I remember even back on a more popular site like GameFAQs, when Radiant Dawn was the top Wii board on the site, that there was always discussion about a variety of things: story, mechanics, etc. Time passed, it petered out, people moved on; there's not much left of the community except the hardcores, latecomers, and clowns. It happens. Guaranteed that the cycle will repeat if there is a new game with fresh content.

I admit there isn't much to discuss about the Tellius Saga anymore, but what about the JPN-only sagas ?

What about them? You need to pirate a rom, language patch it, and emulate. This is a niche of a niche, stretching the word "casual" beyond the breaking point. We're in "outlier" territory now.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Interceptor

[Colonel M]

My great grandmother died. Being of around the age of 12, my aunt told me how they put a rose in my great grandmother's hand and it bloomed. After my cousins spoke of the story, I told them "it can't happen". My uncle (the cousins's dad) was pissed at me, but I knew I did the right thing.

It's not because I like breaking people's hearts, but its more or less because I cannot stand lies. You see, if you're going to expain how Soren has been awesomesauce for you, I'm going to whip out stas and show you that you got absurdly lucky. If you hand me a poll of "who's the better mage: Nino or Erk", I'm going to say Erk and state the reasons. I won't 100% criticize how you play a game. If, however, you're going to rebuttal against me, prepare to face the doghouse or stay off of the porch. Shining Force Central plays their games much slower and with Egress. They don't understand "efficiency". Am I going to flat out say you're playing the game wrong? No. If I make a tier list and they want Claude to Top, am I going to now? Yes, but Ill gladly explain to you why even if you or I completely disagree.

Smogon is the vast majority a competitive website. If you're trying to use Luvdisc in Ou, were going to tell you it straight. Not because we're dicks or tyrants either.

Generally I won't get pissed at you either nor will I attempt to strawman on purpose. There are only 3 people that I will willingly do it to. Even ColdEye, the most annoying "Uber player that asks why Psychic sucks there", I'm going to answer it straight and explain why.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

Violet can have his/her last word and unless it states incorrect things that need to be corrected this should probably stop now.

"Avoid playing this game" is the topic.

edit: well, Violet was making a post when I posted that. Or at least the username was in italics at the bottom of the screen. If a post doesn't come soon, though, I'd rather the off-topic stuff stopped altogether.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Violet]

Edit2: Don't openly challenge tier debaters. Specifically Interceptor. He will crush you effortlessly.

I wasn't challenging anyone, and its not like I care if he could or not. You and dondon are missing my point. I don't know the tiers. I just know that when I was playing, Soren was the best Sage aside from Micaiah (yes, I gave them both Speedwings). The elitism is that people expect people to know the tiers and therefore act like competative asses to anyone making what they percieve to be an incorrect statement. I simply don't have TIME to memorise the growth rates off by heart, and I don't trust tier lists because they vary on whoever's writing them at the time. So I just go on what works for me.

Nevermind that I tend to think tiers in general are the most pointless bloody things in the world, especially in a game like RD where your party changes regularly, but there you go.

As for the idea that... casuals are somehow driving themselves away from the fandom, I don't think thats it at all. Take the EarthBound community. One of THE most obsessive and hardcore gaming community out there, niche too. Do they focus on statistics and stuff like that? No. Not at all. They don't give a damn. They never run out of things to talk about or end up resorting to discussing timeline theories or tier lists. They enjoy the games to the zenith, and that's what I love about that particular fanbase. Being a hardcore fan of a series doesn't mean you have to know all the technical details.

The western FE community isn't really as welcoming as it used to be. There is a LOT of discussion about tiers. Its happening in this very topic. Partly my fault for sparking this discussion, but still. It's not necessarily the discussion on which character is best that bothers me, it's the horrible competitive nature surrounding it. I don't care if Interceptor will "crush me indefinitely" if I attempt to discuss tiers with him. Go nuts. Its not like I'm going to stop using Soren just because he's NOT QUITE, from a purely mathamatical standpoint, the best Sage.

Edit: Yeah, probably a good time to stop. Apologies for starting such an off-topic debate, not really my intention, nor was my intention to insult any people here for discussing tiers. That's fine. I would just like to see some other discussion more often.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Violet

[dondon151]

Its not like I'm going to stop using Soren just because he's NOT QUITE, from a purely mathamatical standpoint, the best Sage.

That's great, I'm not going to stop using Soren either. But asserting that he is a good unit is factually incorrect. I don't think it is elitist at all to correct people for, well, being wrong.

[Violet]

That's great, I'm not going to stop using Soren either. But asserting that he is a good unit is factually incorrect. I don't think it is elitist at all to correct people for, well, being wrong.

He IS a good unit though. Maybe not the best Sage, but saying he's bad is just plain wrong as well. And correcting people isn't the issue, as I said, it's the competitiveness and the desperate desire to be right all the time. Hey, I've fallen into the same competitive trap in the past, but it gets endless and self-indulgent in the end.

[FionordeQuester]

I wasn't challenging anyone, and its not like I care if he could or not. You and dondon are missing my point. I don't know the tiers. I just know that when I was playing, Soren was the best Sage aside from Micaiah (yes, I gave them both Speedwings). The elitism is that people expect people to know the tiers and therefore act like competative asses to anyone making what they percieve to be an incorrect statement.

You should, unless you actually like being wrong. If someone can crush you in a debate, it's usually because they're either more knowledgable than you, they're better at the game than you, or you just really suck at controlling your temper and/or communicating what you're trying to communicate.

I simply don't have TIME to memorise the growth rates off by heart, and I don't trust tier lists because they vary on whoever's writing them at the time. So I just go on what works for me.

You could just print it out you know. Or better yet, just look at it once in a while if you forget. That's what I always do, it should work unless your internet connection really sucks.

He IS a good unit though. Maybe not the best Sage, but saying he's bad is just plain wrong as well. And correcting people isn't the issue, as I said, it's the competitiveness and the desperate desire to be right all the time. Hey, I've fallen into the same competitive trap in the past, but it gets endless and self-indulgent in the end.

You say you're not trying to challenge anyone, but what do you think you're doing by directly contradicting them after they've tried to prove you wrong? And where is the "competitiveness and the desperate desire to be right" in this thread? I just see guys trying to correct you.

Edited May 29, 2010 by FionordeQuester

[Ike-Mike]

The casuals drive themselves away: they are casuals.

Because casuals totally can't develop a deeper interest into a series and look up about it on the internet including its message boards and stuff.

What about them? You need to pirate a rom, language patch it, and emulate. This is a niche of a niche, stretching the word "casual" beyond the breaking point. We're in "outlier" territory now.

Because that totally didn't stop the MOTHER fandom to thrive and talk about the first and third game as much as the second one.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Ike-Mike

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Shit like this will end the day people realize the difference between "bashing playstyles" and "correcting wrongful assertions". Sadly, today is not that day and since the topic creator has gotten enough answers and there's more signs of off-topic repetition than there is of people going back on topic, I see no reason to keep this open.

You may continue this discussion in PMs or in a new thread.