Resource Allocation Topic

[Junkhead]

I guess you could be right, the good side of killing Ike, is that you get to end the chapter faster, but by just defending and wiping out Laguz, you get alot more Exp. I only killed Ike because it seemed much of a challenge, especially when he had +30 Avo and max biorithym.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Soul

[Interceptor]

Well, she I did mention the fact she has Savior, also, Canto, it'll help her.

Savior and Canto don't solve the problem of Zihark's next turn, they just keep people from getting killed. Someone needs to take Zihark from Jill, otherwise the both of them lose their next Player Phase.

I assume it would be realistically to assume he would get to an S-rank by Part 3, you just can't get him to get too many kills if you want your other characters raised.

Look at the efficient playlog link in my sig. I got Nolan and Jill both trained to tier 2 by the end of 1-Endgame, which is also where Volug hit S-Strike. This is about as good as it's going to get.

Is killing Ike really worth it in the end? I guess it does give to a faster clear, but we're talking shifty scenarios here when we're trying to kill him. I guess it's just me, but I'd rather mash "end turn" after setting up for a defensive position. I haven't really played this game recently, so I could be in the wrong.

Killing Ike is the only way to save turns in 3-13. You can cut 12 turns down to 6, and you're not getting those turns back if you spend them here. If we gauge efficiency by turns passed, killing Ike has to be in the mix.

[dondon151]

@dondon: 27 STR on tier 3 Jill is unlikely in a real playthrough. She's an excellent candidate for the Drop, first of all, and secondly she can squeeze out a bit higher than average in tier 2 with some BEXP (just needs to cap SPD).

OK, I was just wondering if getting her to level 20 in both tiers is reasonable. I recall that her 3-6 performance, at least offensively, is kind of bad.

[Anouleth]

I imagined we'd crown her. Even a beast like Nolan can't reach tier 3 in time for 3-13. But if that's the case, then she's not likely to have more than 26STR. She needs 20/15/1 to hit 26 with the Drop, and even BEXP barely helps her since Strength is fifth in line for her behind Luck, HP, Resistance, and Skill after MAG/SPD cap. Unless we go all silly and give her two Robes so she can cap HP. Which actually sounds quite fun now that I bring it up.

[Interceptor]

OK, I was just wondering if getting her to level 20 in both tiers is reasonable. I recall that her 3-6 performance, at least offensively, is kind of bad.

It's tight, I won't lie. But since Jill's utility is effectively unique in the DB, it's a mountain worth scaling.

In my run, Jill hit 20 in 1-Endgame and Seal'ed herself mid-chapter. In 3-6, the ideal setup is to give Vantage/Beastfoe to Nolan, and Paragon to Jill. Her offense is terrible here, and she needs max +HIT on a forge just to have reliable accuracy, but the ability to Canto and sit anywhere she wants is a huge boon. It means that you can always expose her to the maximum amount of safe Enemy Phase activity, and have her take anything that's weak enough to finish off. This maximizes the benefit of Paragon, since on laguz even the per-hit CEXP is considerable. The nice thing is, as she levels during the course of the chapter, she gets progressively better at taking hits and dealing damage, so you can take more risks with her and score more kills. Meanwhile, Nolan OHKOs everything with Beastfoe, getting lots of CEXP just from the volume of kills.

Using that strategy, I did a 13-turn clear of 3-6, that took Nolan from ~20/4 to ~20/10, and Jill from ~20/1 to ~20/17. That ain't a typo, Jill gained 16 levels, and I'm comfortable saying that Flying + Canto gives her a considerable advantage for CEXP opportunities over other DB members.

From there, it's not hard to get Jill to tier 3 by 3-13. Nolan can spend 3-12 with Paragon, while she bulldogs anything she wants (tier 1/2 beorcs have no chance at all against a 20/17 Jill), and then you just need to finish up the rest with BEXP (there's not much, but it's enough) and crown her in time to fight Ike.

By the way, tangential to this, my level 8-ish tier 1 Laura had 58 listed HIT on Ike with a Sleep staff, with a Worst/Good bio differential (amounts to +15 in favor of Ike). I don't know the staff accuracy formula, and can't derive it from my stats since I'm 100% sure that Laura leveled up during 3-13. But, I'd say that it's reasonable to posit that it's within the player's abilities to push this value higher. For example, having Raisin use Bliss on Ike at a strategic point in 3-8 or 3-10 can get his Bio to Bad or Worst by Turn 2 or 3 in 3-13. Also, favoring Laura more over Micaiah, getting her to at least 10, and using a Master Seal on her will improve her statistics a bit, especially if this can happen by 3-6 where she can make potshots with Light magic (though that will probably require Recover abuse and BEXP).

The purpose of that is, leaning on both Sleep and Stun procs in tandem will improve the chances of a fast Ike kill considerably.

[Anouleth]

Wow, you really got Jill 16 levels in 3-6?

I guess I underestimated Laguz CEXP.

[Interceptor]

Don't get me wrong: it's not easy to do. I was assisted by a Jill that was DEF-blessed (by about +2 over her average), and had already been given both an Energy Drop and the Seraph Robe. I also gave her a significant amount of my Part 1 BEXP. She needed help from Micaiah, Sothe, and Volug on the east side of the swamp river, weakening things for her to kill. Nolan was basically all by himself in the west, blicking things and getting chain-healed by whoever was free at the moment, so she didn't have the support bonus from him.

[Fenrir]

It's tight, I won't lie. But since Jill's utility is effectively unique in the DB, it's a mountain worth scaling.

In my run, Jill hit 20 in 1-Endgame and Seal'ed herself mid-chapter. In 3-6, the ideal setup is to give Vantage/Beastfoe to Nolan, and Paragon to Jill. Her offense is terrible here, and she needs max +HIT on a forge just to have reliable accuracy, but the ability to Canto and sit anywhere she wants is a huge boon. It means that you can always expose her to the maximum amount of safe Enemy Phase activity, and have her take anything that's weak enough to finish off. This maximizes the benefit of Paragon, since on laguz even the per-hit CEXP is considerable. The nice thing is, as she levels during the course of the chapter, she gets progressively better at taking hits and dealing damage, so you can take more risks with her and score more kills. Meanwhile, Nolan OHKOs everything with Beastfoe, getting lots of CEXP just from the volume of kills.

Using that strategy, I did a 13-turn clear of 3-6, that took Nolan from ~20/4 to ~20/10, and Jill from ~20/1 to ~20/17. That ain't a typo, Jill gained 16 levels, and I'm comfortable saying that Flying + Canto gives her a considerable advantage for CEXP opportunities over other DB members.

From there, it's not hard to get Jill to tier 3 by 3-13. Nolan can spend 3-12 with Paragon, while she bulldogs anything she wants (tier 1/2 beorcs have no chance at all against a 20/17 Jill), and then you just need to finish up the rest with BEXP (there's not much, but it's enough) and crown her in time to fight Ike.

By the way, tangential to this, my level 8-ish tier 1 Laura had 58 listed HIT on Ike with a Sleep staff, with a Worst/Good bio differential (amounts to +15 in favor of Ike). I don't know the staff accuracy formula, and can't derive it from my stats since I'm 100% sure that Laura leveled up during 3-13. But, I'd say that it's reasonable to posit that it's within the player's abilities to push this value higher. For example, having Raisin use Bliss on Ike at a strategic point in 3-8 or 3-10 can get his Bio to Bad or Worst by Turn 2 or 3 in 3-13. Also, favoring Laura more over Micaiah, getting her to at least 10, and using a Master Seal on her will improve her statistics a bit, especially if this can happen by 3-6 where she can make potshots with Light magic (though that will probably require Recover abuse and BEXP).

The purpose of that is, leaning on both Sleep and Stun procs in tandem will improve the chances of a fast Ike kill considerably.

so what 3-6 tactics did you use? becuase ive goten people like 5-7 levels their maybye but 16 sounds awesome tbh

[Narga_Rocks]

so what 3-6 tactics did you use? becuase ive goten people like 5-7 levels their maybye but 16 sounds awesome tbh

Look at this:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19278&view=findpost&p=901265

compare levels to this:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19278&view=findpost&p=889154

You'll find that the levels are almost exclusively on Nolan and Jill. Focus nearly all that exp on two characters and you get a ton. I'm betting you've spread it among 4 or 5 characters.

(I must say, I still have no idea how he got Jill to level 8 in his first attempt and level 17 in the second. I mean, check the levels of the supporting cast. Aside from Micaiah and Volug getting an extra level, there isn't much that is different. Maybe he killed more untransformed enemies in the first attempt and killed more transformed in the second?)

Edited June 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

so what 3-6 tactics did you use? becuase ive goten people like 5-7 levels their maybye but 16 sounds awesome tbh

First make sure that you read the links that Narga posted, but also take a look at this link. That post is the FIRST time that I tried 3-6 with my team; the one that Narga linked was the run that I kept. Notice how there is a significant difference in the level distribution, and it was because I was not being aggressive with Jill (I was afraid of over-extending myself and running out of healing). This turned out to be a needless worry, since Nolan is unstoppable and Jill can generally monopolize both Laura and Micaiah for herself.

Nolan's job is to charge northwest, alone, into the swamp, with Tarvos and Beastfoe + Vantage. He has enough durability to survive on his own, so long as you take care not to expose him to too much danger all at once. With concoctions, he can even handle a lot of his own healing. Despite the entrance between the reeds here being two squares wide, you don't need to block it off completely, as the laguz will simply just suicide into Nolan. You even get some assistance from the yellow NPC healer if you leave them on Roam.

Jill on the other hand, goes east. She is not good enough (yet) to beast like Nolan, so the idea is that you make a blockade with her, Volug, and Sothe. Micaiah and Laura float nearby to back up with heals. Someone (Sothe usually) should use a Torch to get maximum Fog of War exposure. The idea here is to send Jill out into the river, and with knowledge of laguz range and movement, expose herself to as much damage on Enemy Phase as she can survive. When the opportunity presents itself -- such as when Volug, Micaiah, Sothe, or even she has weakened something to very low HP -- Jill should fly out, take the kill, and Canto back into a good spot. This ensures that Jill is always fighting on the razor's edge, and maximizing EXP gain. It is something that only she can do.

Basically, this is a unit-specific clear. You cannot get this kind of performance out of anyone except Nolan and Jill. Don't expect it to be useful for training Zihark, or Eddie. Volug *might* be able to serve in the same capacity as Nolan, but he'll need more healing support, a different skill set, and tons of grass. Etc.

EDIT: response to edit response.

(I must say, I still have no idea how he got Jill to level 8 in his first attempt and level 17 in the second. I mean, check the levels of the supporting cast. Aside from Micaiah and Volug getting an extra level, there isn't much that is different. Maybe he killed more untransformed enemies in the first attempt and killed more transformed in the second?)

I did kill more untransformed enemies. Originally, I just was going for a low-turn clear, so doing things like having Leonardo peg people with his PRF bow made sense. But afterwards, I noticed some CEXP gain inefficiencies that I wanted to address. The success of that led into the quick clear of 3-13, which is something that I never intended to do from the beginning, I considered the 13 turns burned to be the cost of doing business.

The double posting rules are balls; it's a good thing this was a quick response.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

First make sure that you read the links that Narga posted, but also take a look at this link. That post is the FIRST time that I tried 3-6 with my team; the one that Narga linked was the run that I kept.

Tch. I figured in the 3-6 you kept you had a link to your first attempt and that was sufficient if he wanted to know the skill set ups or anything else there.

The double posting rules are balls; it's a good thing this was a quick response.

Oh well. I accept it. Now, anyway.

And yeah, what you did with Jill requires Canto, simple as that. Move out, kill, move into position for maximum safe exposure. Can't do that with others.

[Fenrir]

thanks alot for the advice, but a question about it, is laura necessesary, or can you just have sothe eat vulneries?

and i was playing part 3 and got seraph robe at 3-1 just wanted to know anyones thoughts on this cause normally i give it to soren but im not using him this round.

[Narga_Rocks]

thanks alot for the advice, but a question about it, is laura necessesary, or can you just have sothe eat vulneries?

Of course laura is necessary. Two healers > one healer for 3-6. Too many units get injured too quickly. Healing is paramount and you can't always afford to have units giving up their player phase when you could simply use Laura w/ Physic or something.

and i was playing part 3 and got seraph robe at 3-1 just wanted to know anyones thoughts on this cause normally i give it to soren but im not using him this round.

Titania (+ speedwing + dracoshield), depending on her support partner. Obviously if you go and support her with Oscar she'd have less need of it, but I generally support her with others.

[Interceptor]

You need to have a mix of healing available, because circumstances will usually force your hand. This means that everyone needs healing if they are going to see combat. Like, if you want Sothe to weaken something for Jill to finish off, because there's nothing low enough for her to kill, you'll have to give up the opportunity to use a vulnerary on him, and probably take a counter on top of that. This is what Laura or Micaiah are for. They can stand near each other and either Physic or Mend as the situation dictates.

The 3-1 Robe is good to give to Titania. It helps her durability, which is kind of shaky without supports, and puts her HP only two away from the tier 2 cap (makes it easier to BEXP abuse her later). That's the efficient route. There are other less-effective options, obviously, like Nephenee.

[Fenrir]

so it would be a good idea to not let laura die...but anyways thanks for the help, and thinking about jill made me think, why is haar so much higher on tiers and shit when jill is more important to her team and has better P4 and endgame stats?

[Interceptor]

No, I'd wait to kill off Laura until after 3-13. That's the last chapter where she's unequivocally useful.

I don't think I'd say that Jill is more important to her team than Haar is to his. Haar is really ridiculous. Jill might be more highly regarded if she were around longer, but honestly she's responsible for maybe a half dozen turns that few other people can match, and then that's it. Jill's never your best unit in Part 4, or anything, just a really good one.

[Narga_Rocks]

No, I'd wait to kill off Laura until after 3-13. That's the last chapter where she's unequivocally useful.

I don't think I'd say that Jill is more important to her team than Haar is to his. Haar is really ridiculous. Jill might be more highly regarded if she were around longer, but honestly she's responsible for maybe a half dozen turns that few other people can match, and then that's it. Jill's never your best unit in Part 4, or anything, just a really good one.

I have to agree with Haar being more important. Haar quickly becomes a flying god in part 3 if he got a speedwing. He's that way for a fairly long time. Certainly longer than Jill's prime. Even before he starts doubling everything, Haar is still quite important for chapters like 3-3.

Could Jill make it back to high tier? Who knows. But a tier gap is more than justified.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Could Jill make it back to high tier? Who knows. But a tier gap is more than justified.

*glances at tier list*

I'd say that I could make an argument for Jill back into High tier, based on my new experiences with her. Nolan has earned his placement, as well. Zihark's gearing for a trip down to Upper Mid, though.

[Narga_Rocks]

*glances at tier list*

I'd say that I could make an argument for Jill back into High tier, based on my new experiences with her. Nolan has earned his placement, as well. Zihark's gearing for a trip down to Upper Mid, though.

Poor Zihark. Are you truly saying Nolan > Zihark? I mean, I can see it, sure. Zihark is useful in 1-6 and can grab Brave sword to ORKO everything for the rest of part 1, but he's looking at, what, 3HKOd by many things? Most, even? And perhaps fighters in 1-E even 2HKO him. Then he has trouble earning massive exp like Nolan/Jill can in part 3 and thus it's arguably inefficient to even raise him for part 4 (prevents the easy Ike kill with 20/20/1 Jill and makes overall level of intended units lower). Nolan is paramount for the first part of part 1 (certainly more important than Zihark in his glory days) and can be great in part 3 and 4.

Jill > Zihark? Obviously I'd be all for it, but everybody else? Tough road, man.

[dondon151]

Zihark as dibs on Paragon for part 1. If he gets a few levels (like, 7/0), he can escape 2HKOs from most attacking combinations in 1-E.

[Interceptor]

Poor Zihark. Are you truly saying Nolan > Zihark?

Isn't he, though? For all of Zihark's vaunted statistical advantages over Nolan, when push comes to shove in Part 3, Zihark fails in the clutch. The same logic puts Volug in Top tier: he's outstripped measurably in a number of areas by the other prepromotes, but man, he's really good in Part 3 when it matters to be good.

[Fenrir]

I have to agree with Haar being more important. Haar quickly becomes a flying god in part 3 if he got a speedwing. He's that way for a fairly long time. Certainly longer than Jill's prime. Even before he starts doubling everything, Haar is still quite important for chapters like 3-3.

Could Jill make it back to high tier? Who knows. But a tier gap is more than justified.

3-3 is the only chapter hes really quite extremely helpful but after that i can do without him, ive done an entire PT(and it was my first XP) without haar, while you can use jill very little also and she takes a little bit of babying or a seraph robe + energy drop, theres no one better to give these items too. IMO. and then part 4, jill wont be your best but she'll most likely be 2nd or 3rd on hawk army and 2-4 on silver. haar however isnt too good in part 4 and is little help on endgame.

Poor Zihark. Are you truly saying Nolan > Zihark?

Jill > Zihark? Obviously I'd be all for it, but everybody else? Tough road, man.

first off id say nolan is much better, early pt 1 is very IMpossible without nolan and zihark is helpful but not full necessary you have tauroneo + maurim and co and nolans part 3 and 4 are also better IMO, i dont know about endgame though.

Jill vs zihark however is jill coming in at 1st tier lvl 14 zihark at 2nd tier lvl 3, zihark is better but gets almost no xp jill gets plenty and is the only DB flyer is zihark the only great offensivly but terrible def and hp on DB? not even in his own class, and then you have sothe. as for part 3 jill is much better and is probably better for part 4 and endgame.

Edited June 3, 2010 by King Soren

[dondon151]

3-3 is the only chapter hes really quite extremely helpful but after that i can do without him, ive done an entire PT(and it was my first XP) without haar, while you can use jill very little also and she takes a little bit of babying or a seraph robe + energy drop, theres no one better to give these items too. IMO. and then part 4, jill wont be your best but she'll most likely be 2nd or 3rd on hawk army and 2-4 on silver. haar however isnt too good in part 4 and is little help on endgame.

I can do an entire playthrough under arbitrary restrictions. That doesn't mean anything.

[grandjackal]

Isn't he, though? For all of Zihark's vaunted statistical advantages over Nolan, when push comes to shove in Part 3, Zihark fails in the clutch. The same logic puts Volug in Top tier: he's outstripped measurably in a number of areas by the other prepromotes, but man, he's really good in Part 3 when it matters to be good.

I'd actually have to agree with that, as (outside of chapter 1-8 where he's good for doubling those wtf Bandits) Zihark just feels superficial.

Anyways, I figured I would go through the Better Off Shipped list and do the list for those resources in part 3 GM, then Part 3 Normally Gained Resources, the Part 3 People's Skills. Part 3's pretty huge, there's a lot to consider, so I think I'd pretty much have to split things up a bit. Just giving a heads up there.

Will get to it when I can be assed.

[Fenrir]

I can do an entire playthrough under arbitrary restrictions. That doesn't mean anything.

ok, do a playthrough an entire playthrough without using ike at all and sell your hammers immidiantly, also on 1-9 dont use the BK whatsoever and dont use miciah at all before then. can you do that?