Lord of Azure Flame: Suggestions

[Dark Sage]

True. Very true.

I can come off as elitist and defensive, mainly because I am very defensive XD

But yeah, catching up on Shu's Quest.

Anyway Phoenix I think one thing about plans in general is that they have to have an overriding theme above the specifics and be able to be good for change.

I actually found the Morgan thing more interesting with Miranda and Iso than what you had in mind. Mainly because in such a situation, it would be realistic for Morgan to react that way.

My initial thing with Geraro was stupid. I learned very quickly how to handle him and plan accordingly after that. However, various characters and plots I'm introducing I'm planning on tying into each other and where the group is. Depending on where the characters are at the time, they will almost certainly change. That's the nature of the game.

On a side topic, I'd lobby for Counter to be improved. 6 on an enemy skill roll is situational at best and it's only half of your strength that deals damage instead of the enemy's damage overall, making it an underwhelming choice and for the most part, a waste of points.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Yoshimitsu

[Snowy_One]

There is a difference between elitism and being defensive. The two are not correlated, though they tend to reside close to each other. An elitist can be overly defensive about his or her work when it is criticized. They can be overly defensive about letting others join in as well. Elitism is an attitude of being 'better' than the others. Being defensive is being... well... touchy about certain aspects. I only speak for myself, but most of my problems with SQ comes from Purg's attitude. Sage is involved in both SQ and LoAF and I have no problem with him, and my problems with e_s are... minor at best. The main reason I reported him was because he entered LoAF unannounced without informing me or even giving an indication that he was joining. I have been defensive about LoAF, mainly because I am not looking to make it a 'serious' RP nor did I ever intend to; and it makes me mad when people attack it for being what it is. A relaxed, somewhat goofy, RP for people looking to have fun without having to make long posts. Can people have fun making long posts? Yes. I've had plenty of fun in other RP's with expected posting requirements in the thousands of words.

In fact, I'm already ranting right now and I haven't even had lunch yet. *sigh* I need a better hobby.

[Purg]

I only speak for myself, but most of my problems with SQ comes from Purg's attitude.

And that makes me feel just oh-so-special, yo.

Sage is involved in both SQ and LoAF and I have no problem with him,

If by "involved" you mean he's signed up and said he's working on joining up, then, yeah.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Purg

[Psych]

I believe "involved" means he has some part in it. >_>

And I love how Phoenix was complaining, and my name wasn't even mentioned until Kanami dropped in.

[Dark Sage]

If involved Snowy, you mean catching up on 16 pages of long posts and you're only on page 5, then yes, I'm involved.

[-Cynthia-]

Counter is all your Str, not just half.

We do need another skill rebalancing session methinks.

I personally don't view LOAF as a "goofy" RP, I tend to take it pretty seriously myself.

[Snike]

Counter is all your Str, not just half.

We do need another skill rebalancing session methinks.

I personally don't view LOAF as a "goofy" RP, I tend to take it pretty seriously myself.

This.

As for skill rebalance, we really should just apply all changes in a different topic, so someone can update frequently. =/

[Phoenix]

Deleted by me. Argument's over anyway.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Phoenix

[Psych]

The inn fire:I gave one try to stop the fire and unlike Psych, I let the issue be after that. I didn't keep making the same damn "fire off" post until being threatened by a GM. Flexibility proven.

You can not have pulled a me if I didn't exist when the inn caught fire. >_>

Also Phoenix....walloftextomgmyeyes. D:

[Dark Sage]

The solution to fixing the RP is obvious.

Summon Pyramidhead.

He'll clean this RP up. He'll kill off all the annoying and awful characters. He'll destroy angst by killing the angsters. It'll be IC for him to kill everything and not suffer consequences and get hurt because he's an Implacable Man.

[Phoenix]

You can not have pulled a me if I didn't exist when the inn caught fire. >_>

Also Phoenix....walloftextomgmyeyes. D:

You know that phrase "there's nothing new under the sun"? I think it applies here.

Also lol

@ Pyramid head killing things

Oh man, that reminds me of something regarding my own rp I should probably think about.

[Snike]

Sage, get back into the asylum, kthnx (Or post Njordjenka)

I guess some people need to have more flexibility in their plans, and some people less. I'm not sure if I qualify as manipulating your characters, but, I've been talked out of things that make sense, just because it wouldn't be favourable, or would be a bad time interaction-wise for it to do. That needs to stop, but, the forewarning thing is an idea. I will announce things from now on if they really put a halt to general interaction.

[Phoenix]

I guess some people need to have more flexibility in their plans, and some people less. I'm not sure if I qualify as manipulating your characters, but, I've been talked out of things that make sense, just because it wouldn't be favourable, or would be a bad time interaction-wise for it to do.

Manipulation isn't really my problem since it's just another play style, it's just something I like to avoid since I'm not comfortable with doing it myself. It really is just a difference in styles(cooperative vs competitive vs reactive, etc). My issue it is that it seems like nobody cares when they're stepping on other people's toes, <---and that is just something I hate to fathom. There's being manipulative, and then there's being manipulative with added inflexible carelessness which is the difference between what you do, and what Psych usually does.

I can't read minds so I don't know if people are thinking

"Okay I want this to happen so I need to somehow get this character to do this and to hell with whatever so and so has planned"

or thinking

"You know it'd be cool if this happened so lemme see if so and so are alright with this."

This is why my approach has always been to come to people directly with things or keep an event almost entirely self contained to avoid messing up anything someone else is doing.

[Kanami]

@Negative Solution

Solution? Where? Encouraging people skip your posts is your solution to what? Your long boring posts? If they're not worth reading, why bother writing it up in the first place? Writing practice? If your writing solely out of boredom, and not to actually RP... again, go write a book?

I fail to see what it solves, but can see how it encourages post skipping. :/

@Psych/forewarnings

Personally speaking I find your approach to be the worst possible selection. Obviously you don't have to like certain people (or characters in the RP) and ignoring them is fine. However the approach of ignoring everything you don't like just because you don't like it is both immature and stupid. Which.... I suppose describes you pretty well actually. I've noticed you've got a very short "mental limitation" in regards to working with things you don't like. Though why there's a physical limitation involved in this is not something I understand :/

As for things I don't like, I also specified several times, (nearly everytime) I stated that, that "didn't like" was synonymous to "doesn't make sense." Selizara was a prime example of this, where absolutely nothing made sense. An abandoned fort lying right next to the capitol? Since I didn't ever reveal who the "shady group" were, (I'll just use bandits) with the word in the state that Snowy mentioned I find it near impossible to find a fort next to a capitol city which is abandoned, especially in Elysimma which was supposedly full of the drunk, gambling idiots of Vegas. Crime rates would have been high enough to at least place some enemy in Selizara, hence the reason I kept demanding something better happen there, but instead it was just a convenient place to get surrounded.

You're sending a convicted criminal with a past record to negotiate terms? Honestly? "Oh you used to be my friend so you're all immune to the law and pardoned from the crimes you DID commit?" If Viveka was the corrupt money grabbing type I could understand her letting the group get away, but that clearly was never anyones intentions. Overall any plans laid in regards to Selizara were hopelessly flawed. So it's probably not a good idea to mention them on your side of the argument.

As for your examples..... you're joking right? That's what you think "flexible" means? First of all "flexibility" doesn't apply in the current topic when you yourself are the initiator of the action and change. That's simply a miracle occurring, you (possibly) seeing logic and the implausibility over what you had originally planned. In examples like "Ambush" you're not even following your own preaching by making them head out "TWICE" was it necessary? Was it IC? Or was it you just deciding you don't care about OoC for that brief moment. I highly doubt everyone was jumping at you and begging you to ambush the group.

Inn fire, isn't flexibility either. Since it was either retcon the last 2~3 pages and start again, to a godmod that seemed entirely inappropriate. Or go with what actually made sense, in favor of plausibility over what you as the individual wanted. I acknowledge you don't get your way, and that's because that's the nature of an RP. But it wasn't once, how many times have we had these long winded arguments? And how many times have I had to bring up plausibility? That alone should speak for itself.

As for "getting her way" I doubt that refers to Kiryn or Cynthia, but I'm having a hard time trying to apply it to myself as well. Simply because I don't usually have "a way." Due to most of my actions being disapproval of actions not poorly mapped out "plans" which I want to execute. And even if I do map out a plan I'm more then willing to change it since (as I've always said) I believe the core of an RP is interactions. Using the inn fire, I would have been perfectly happy to skip the inn fire had Isotov not used fire in a wooden inn. Istample is another example where you decided to randomly drop in on Kamilla poisoning the food. Though I didn't really care because my aim was to get one of the godmoding fools to jump in and intercept the action. I don't recall ever thanking you, so;

Thank you for being my fool :/

In addition to that, don't give me the he was being IC rubbish. (Though I can see how it could be IC since Isotov at that time was 95% food, 5%angst) hell it's IC for the gaebolg and Damian to be able to take out a whole platoon of soldiers, doesn't change anything. Hell if you want to use IC, it's IC for me to set fire to everything and burn it to the ground.

@Sense

What doesn't make sense is you citing plausibility on one hand then saying you're willing to sacrifice it for your personal goals the next. Flexible does not mean you never bend. It means you're not willing to bend and the arguments that have occurred are more then enough indication in support of that. I'd probably quit one of my jobs if I got a dollar everytime you said "It's IC" :/

I also don't see any reason to portray you as the victim, since I can't think of anyone in an RP who can say that they're directing the plot in the direction they want. If you're looking for a more smooth flowing story-like RP then go to SQ. Going back to flexibility though, You're referring to flexibility in terms of listening and implementing the ideas of others to flimsy plans. While I'm referring to your tendency to structure a plan concrete it, and bitch when you can't get your way.

To end, I completely agree with you Cap'ed statement,

-You are indeed willing to work with people

-You are not willing to work with people who disagree with you.

-You are not willing to argue your point, but instead opt to ignore opinions you don't like.

Very clear to me. :/ Though I don't see why you're trying to emphasize my point.

[Phoenix]

Deleted by me. Argument's over anyway.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Phoenix

[Kanami]

Listen up? *listens to music playing on her computer* Nyeh? Unfortunately, I'm also living proof that reads posts whether she likes them or not. If I skipped over every post I didn't like, I honestly wouldn't have read half the posts I had back then. Anyway, your.... points?

A) So no complaints = okay? It still doesn't change the fact that by encouraging skipping some posts, your in effect encouraging people skip other people's post too.

>_>

Read posts, do not skim, plox

Q:Does everyone do this in LoAF?

A:No, but we certainly encourage people to do so. :/

B)You feel guilty for making large posts? Do you feel guilty for existing to?

C)We've argued pacing before :/ Or rather the SQ'ers have more then adequately commented on people here needlessly trying to rush through everything, it's probably slowed down now. But if you're going to talk about back then, as one of the people who wanted to "get in as many interactions with people while they're online" (Feedback P2) I don't think you're in a position to complain about how things moved rapidly to the point where things became impossible to manage.

D) Excluding people again? Poor featherbrain :/ How you can preach making things flow smoother and then encourage people to skip posts looks contradictory from any angle.

@Forewarning

Am I really going to have to sink to the level of arguing why someone should/shouldn't care about something? I really hope you're just stating that, and not actually using it as part of your argument.... since if it's the latter..... I really pity you.

Rotten attitude though, I must say. You don't agree with someone so you're going to throw a tantrum? There there, it's okay baby Phoenix. "work with" usually means that both sides are willing to sacrifice things. As a fellower LoAF participant it's more your role to convince him to work with the group then it is mine. I don't know how many of you have directly told Psych or tried to work things out with him. I've certainly read more bitching through PM's then I have attempts to work things out with him.

@Sense

Viveka and Conrad as a whole were poorly situated characters. Lightning who I was the bottom RP'er from my perspective (Yes, worse then Kai) at the time, figured, "Hey, we're wanted criminals now, I'm going to make a General to bail us out" which is just poor planning. (Inn fire incident) And for some wacky reason you figured that you'd make Viveka after we'd burned down an inn and fought off Percy/soldiers. Now since you know your "fucking intentions" what were you thinking? Hmmm? Hostile nation+ loyal character= Join the group? I recall you complaining that characters were popping out of nowhere but what is this? It's planning that works it's way into the negative. Furthermore if my "reading" is innacurate how about providing the correct intention instead of cussing constantly? Frankly it doesn't make you look any smarter or cooler. So for your own sake, I suggest dropping the saying "fuck" so many times without proper reason.

@Examples

So you're resorting to pinning the blame on Lightning? Well now that I think about it, Lightning was the idiot who created the cobalt caves. However you yourself did not give an indication that escape was possible, at the very least you could have done the "collaboration" you cherish so dearly and talked with Lightning, however it was clear capture was the way thing were headed the moment the group arrived. (Recall the super statted cavalry/Paladins Lightning made stats for) And as you've kindly pointed out prior, none of you have the intentions of imprisoning your own characters. So the moment Chase went out and got himself captured the entire thing was set anyway.

Regardless, you alone are not the cause of Selizara, Selizara itself was a fort Ether made, the situation while initially caused by me screwing Isotov over in the inn was fueled further by Snowy bringing Percy in. Lightning decided he'd send soldier over to Istample meaning more fighting, and even Cynthia added Celest to make things so much more peaceful. This is the nature of an RP. Magically throwing in a few characters will not immediately defuse such a situation. And you have to learn to deal with it.

@Sense2

Last time? Hmm nope, but the Ether/guard situation mentioned in the past few posts are an example. Bitch at you? It's not anyones fault other then Ethers that he decided Damian would be an uncontrollable Mary Sue. And you've indicated not liking constant "conflict" so by "forcing" yourself to defuse that situation, you're sacrificing plausibility for your own goals.

I'd suggest not playing the victim, since it's unlikely people will emphasize with your groaning. You're as much an offender as a victim, as is pretty much everyone else. As for people walking all over your characters? There's plenty of "Plausible" ways to write yourself out of that. And frankly, I don't see anyone walking over your characters anyway.

In regards to plausibility, using it as a template is fine, however to what extent? The template becomes obsolete if anyone can ignore the template at any time. Using my favorite Illyphina example. Why were we heading there? For Katie? Honestly? Half the group didn't even care about the crimson weapons and just wanted a place to "hang out." Most citing safety in numbers. But I find it hard to believe that every character was too stupid to figure Capitol=lots of enemies=capture(or death). You're all stupid mercenaries, right. But even Chase knew to stay away from Illyphina.

I'm going to abstain from commenting on the SQ comment for now, if no one from SQ comments I'll provide my opinion, but I feel they're better qualified then myself to answer those.... question?

@Your Repetitive Point

People are in this to do what they want. That's simple, clear and obvious. You are no exception. You can preach "overall good" all you want, but you only want to improve the experience of others to improve your own. It's not all about "others" but "me." You can euphemise and say "we" but it's clear you lead the group in terms of importance there.

Selizara? I don't know why you're still mentioning it, but I disagree with "over fucking it." If I had gone too far, the group would have ran for the hills as soon as the mage trio struck. Instead we all continued on our merry way to the capitol. I'm certain I made myself very clear back then that Ilyphina was a bad idea. Before commenting on Selizara and your plans and whatnot, how about a valid reason to why we were heading there in the first place? I don't want to hear "people rushing" as your excuse since I made it very clear via Kamilla's whining that Illyphina was a bad idea. Or were people skipping those? You yourself pushed for Illyphina so how about providing a reason as to why you didn't have "patience" then? I can cite a reason, idiocy?

I have no real goals, and there is no need for a collaboration to consist of several goals. If anything not having goals should have made things easier since I wouldn't be trying to work things in my own angle. I really don't think it's smart for someone like you to cite "to make the rp better" when you yourself weren't helping the situation. At the very least, had we exited Elysimma as suggested after the inn fire, Percy might not have happened. Celest wouldn't have happened and Selizara would be non-existent.

Crushing crappy plots doesn't make the RP better? Oh right, and ignoring Psych is so much different. I'm starting to think...no, you are the biggest hypocrite in this RP :/ "Let's work together" is something you're clearly not willing to do.

As for the final paragraph, stop crying damsel, it's clearly because you made little sense, and are infact constantly trying to get off the hook unless you've planned it yourself, and when that happens you complain that you're not getting your way because people are "walking over your characters"

[Phoenix]

Deleted by me. Argument's over anyway.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Phoenix

[Kanami]

@Posts

Nyeh, only thing that was comment worthy here is, "When did we agree to break up into cliches?" Or are you referring to the supposedly subconscious "I only interact with my support partner" pattern?

Another thing that I just noticed now is, how does an individual get interested if you're babying the plot and not showing it to them? Can't be interested in something which doesn't exist (in their minds). As for sabotage, I'll probably go into more depth later in the post, but I didn't enjoy sabotaging posts. As false as that may sound. I enjoyed sabotaging plots which made very little sense. I said it back then, I'm willing to take a look at your plans and then telling you what's wrong with it. Or "Cuddle-proof" I think the term was. However you insisted that it wasn't necessary or that I would rip it apart anyway. And yes I would rip it apart if it was as stupid as half the ideas that had come up at that stage.

@Psych

Dice rolling? Really? This is why stats are so lovely, I honestly wonder who hasn't fudged a dice roll in this RP, I can think of a few, but that's still less then half :/ Not really able to tell you if Psych's recovering, I've generally found the Psych hate to be more then slightly exaggerated. Sure the ideas were bad, but there's been worse implementations in the past.

@Sense

Nothing to say here really, seems like your conceding most points, or accepting blame anyway. Though whether you mean it.... is another matter completely I however do not agree with your concept of a "Better RP." People who don't get along doesn't equate to people who try to screw eachother over. I don't really like Snowy at all, and if I could decide whether he goes to heaven or hell, I'd choose the latter. But I'd still be willing to listen to his ideas.... Hmm guess this, and "listen to me" deserve their own section so here we go. :/

@Differentiating

There is a difference between a "bad idea" and a "bad person." Out of the Rp'ers here, I hold Cynthia in higher regard then everyone else I think, but there have been point where I disagree with her. And back in the Kai hating days, there were a few ideas that I thought could be developed into something interesting. I think we've had this discussion already, but it's the ideas that matter not the person presenting them. Hmmm wasn't as long as I'd thought, ah well here goes the summary bulk post.

@Immaturity

If you think that two people who don't like eachother can't work together, you're just as immature as the "14 year olds" you were telling me about. I've got plenty of people at work I don't like, and being the manager I could probably cut them too, one of them's a racist little shit that still calss Miss Ching Chong China woman. But despite his attitude towards me, he works hard and I've got no intention of complaining against him. Though I constantly have arguments with him after work Likewise with your "Rp" I did offer help (or degradation as you interpret it) despite not liking you. And ultimately I did withdraw myself, but that doesn't change the fact I spent a good few hours replying to your PMs.

I actually thought the ideas were going somewhere, but apparently the "degradation" wasn't to your liking. Though I will give you maturity for acting the way you did. Saying "Safe to say the rp is more solid than it would have been beforehand" to me, and then saying the opposite to others. You get full marks in being an adult there. Not something I condone... actually something I'm quite disgusted by but in regards to this, I'm opting to remain immature and childlike intentionally thanks.

As for your tactics in getting people to listen? Quite frankly I don't mind being ignored, nor do I mind "exploding" in peoples faces as a result. It doesn't really phase me all that much that I was ignored back then, nor was I surprised. I'm not playing by any means, unlike yourself who seems to think you're letting people "walk all over your characters." I wasn't a victim, I was an perpetrator who did what she wanted, because she could. That however, does not change the fact that Selizara and the entire Elysimma arc was a complete failure in terms of plots and planning. Bitching? I suppose I am, but I'm not bitching that you didn't listen to me. I bitching at you and laughing, saying I told you so.

As I've said, it's not important whether people like or hate me, I'm not here to make friends. Though it does show that a good portion of you were stupid little kids who put your petty hatred before your brain, and acted.... stupidly. It doesn't mean anything to me. That's not to say you're all idiots though, some of you did initially support alternative routes, and some apparently still had faith in Snowy to make things work out. I'm just saying that if you read the post and then ignored it because you disliked me, you've still got a bit of growing up to do :/ Usually not a point I'd mention but it seemed ironic coming from the fool who preaches collaboration, cooperation, not sabotaging and communal harmony. Number one indeed.

@Work together

Yes, of course, you're not too good at sugar coating are you? Need to cut the contradicting statements that come after if you want to make sense. Or putting it into practice for that matter. You're action and comments are "work for" not "work together." A common goal? What if someone doesn't like your goal? You give them the boot right? XD Your definition seems nice and all but your comments so far have been "If you don't like it, piss off. Don't touch it, don't go against it, just remove yourself from the equation" If that's working together, then I suppose I indeed don't know what teamwork means. Though I suppose Soviet Russia was teamwork, do maybe you're right. Killing off and removing opposition might be teamwork.

To tie things in, you say pretty things. Just not practical things, and those that are practical are "living and learning" to such a minor degree that it's not even visible.

[Phoenix]

Deleted by me. Argument's over anyway.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Phoenix

[Inactive Account]

Yeesh... is this even really Suggestions-topic material anymore?

[Phoenix]

Well I do keep suggesting things ... ... sorta ...

No one will post in chat

[Purg]

I don't want to say tl;dr, but, really, I only read about half of it, although I'm pretty sure I got most of your points.

All I'm gonna say is if you're defining what you do in an RP as "work," then it's not casual enough for me.

[CATS]

I may not be the right person for "improving" this rp, and it might not even be worth improving, but if no one does anything toward a better solution to our problems, then nothing can happen, and you clearly weren't in this to actually "fix" any problems so I'm just wondering why.

here is a suggestion

if your RP has so many problems, just start a new one and keep what you've learned from the old one in mind

might be related to this one, sequel/prequel maybe, maybe not, who cares; point is, it's easier to do things differently with a blank slate

[Phoenix]

You know that's probably a good point. It's more like work that I'm not paid for than anything else but that doesn't mean I want it to be. I'd normally use "working together" as a general way of meaning we're trying to accomplish something while being diligent and sensible about it and having fun but we're really just spending most of our time trying to fix the damage. I would prefer to just try to have fun but when I did that, we started the most infamous string of events throughout the entire rp :/

@ tldr

That was for Cuddles to consider but if people have the stamina to read through Phoenix walls then power to them.

@ CATS

Funny you mention that since I was planning on starting another rp. Thing with LoAF is that I promised to see it through to the epilogue and I want to see if I can actually do that. It's a lot of "work" now but at least I'm not 100% dissatisfied with everyone and everything that happens along the way, only the things that I find stupid. In addition I can still use LoAF's ongoing experience as a tool to learn ways to improve my own rp when it happens.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Phoenix

[Dark Sage]

Funny thing is, this is my first RP.

Geh.