Mercakete Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 Man do I disagree. It's been my experience that light kills dramatically. Anima is the weakest, imo. Though I will agree that light magic is more speedy than the other magics. Maybe 1pt less in mag (though I really think light isn't respected enough in this area) and 1pt more in speed caps. I'm willing to bed that way (though it is difficult and I think thunder mage caps fit monk very well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 (edited) Man do I disagree. It's been my experience that light kills dramatically. Anima is the weakest, imo. Though I will agree that light magic is more speedy than the other magics. Maybe 1pt less in mag (though I really think light isn't respected enough in this area) and 1pt more in speed caps. I'm willing to bed that way (though it is difficult and I think thunder mage caps fit monk very well). Because character growths often fit with archetypes or can vary widely, even within a class (cf. Lugh, Hugh, Lilina), let's look at the generic growth rates: Magic growths: Mage > Shaman > Monk. That's right. Monks have pathetic magic growth. You know the type of enemy you can always count on to be a pushover (sometimes even moreso than loldiers)? Monks. Crazed Beast provides an excellent example. Not to mention that strictly based on available magic spells, Light tomes are the heaviest, and the weakest, and the least versatile. Monks only really shine in Luck and Resistance. Everywhere else, they're getting trounced by the better magic users. Name HP S/M Skl Spd Lck Def Res Mage (F) 55 55 40 35 20 5 40 Mage (M) 55 55 40 35 20 5 30 Monk 50 30 35 32 45 8 40 Shaman (F) 50 45 32 30 20 10 40 Shaman (M) 50 50 32 30 20 10 30 [spoiler=Hector Hard Mode, Chapter 25] Edited October 16, 2010 by Balcerzak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 Current Priest Caps HP 3 MAG 4 SKL 6 SPD 4 DEF 2 RES 6 Proposed Light Mage Caps HP 4 MAG 5 SKL 4 SPD 5 DEF 2 RES 4 *sigh* Can we just vote on these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 (edited) Current Priest Caps HP 3 MAG 4 SKL 6 SPD 4 DEF 2 RES 6 Proposed Light Mage Caps HP 4 MAG 5 SKL 4 SPD 5 DEF 2 RES 4 *sigh* Can we just vote on these? HP is too high, Magic is too high. Honestly, I'm seeing HP 3 STR 2 MAG 4 SKL 4 +? 1 SPD 5 DEF 2 RES 6 -? 1 Edited October 16, 2010 by Balcerzak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 Priests have 6 skill instead of 4, 6 resistance instead of 4, 4 speed, and 3 HP. I thought of making them stronger or faster to make up for the lack of staves, but less bulky so Priests are entirely obsolete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercakete Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 I understand Shamen having the highest magic, but at least bump the wind and fire mages up to the same as thunder mages in magic. They're all anima, after all. I don't see why thunder mages should be a step above fire or wind. Also, monks shouldn't have more HP than the other magic users. They're squishy, but fast and powerful. That's how I see them. High damage, good avoid, can usually double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 Thunder does more damage than fire, which does more damage than wind in FE9. Now in FE10 it's all screwy because thunder does the least damage and the least accurate so it's probably best just to not count that. If we equalize magic for all the mages, then that would make wind mages the definitive best since they have the highest Skl. We could equalize Skl too I guess, but that makes all types of anima magic identical. Right now they're inversely proportional in terms of Skl/Mag which I think is fair. Monks should maybe use Wind Mage caps instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercakete Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 I don't see why wind. Light never seemed to be good with skill but pretty awesome with magical power. I'm talking the GBA games, by the way since the only light users in FE9/10 were Saints/bishops and Micaiah and I'd agree that they were very weak. However, I'd say that that is mainly due to practice with staffs. We've already established how the healers' light should work. And even Micaiah could bring down anima without taking any damage from my experience (which is odd because of the trinity of magic but that just shows how high her resist/magic caps could be). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 (edited) That more has to do with Lucius/Artur etc. having high Mag growths. For example, Lucius has 20% higher Mag growth than Erk, but Lightning has 1 less Mt than Fire (and 5 more Hit). We could compromise and give them Fire Mage caps. Edited October 16, 2010 by -Cynthia- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercakete Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Lucius and Artur the only monks in FE? If so, then isn't it a good assumption that all monks would have high magic growth? And since we don't get that technical my simply having caps and the player chosing where to put what stat, then wouldn't it be a good idea to give the monks higher magic caps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 While I'm not going to comment on the caps themselves since the only suggestions I would have come up with have already been made, I will comment on Lucius and Artur. We're probably better served going by a class' relative strengths rather than PC variant strengths. In FE (ones I've played and know of) there are other monks besides Lucius and Artur, even though they're all enemies. Looking at a nightmare module shows that they've got growth rates just like the PCs even though they don't actually level up or anything. It's better if we rely on a general portrayal of a class rather than just the strongest examples who happen to be PCs. Helps her case that the enemies don't have caps and are simply made to resemble their class but ... still Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercakete Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 I agree with that. I'm just saying that monks are the (base-class) masters of light magic. All other light-magic users have the kind that we're used to in this rp scenario. However, monks have a much higher potential. I agree that generally light magic is weak. But that is only because generally we're playing bishops (which are great for heals but not much else). The monk is a class unto its self and has high magic. We shouldn't be comparing the weak priest to the powerful monk. That's like comparing the movement stats between a lance knight and a soldier or the strength of a warrior to the strength of a berzerker or the speed of a myrmydon to a mercenary. Monks =/= priests. Compare classes and what that class should have, not basing it on weapon type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 I'd actually like to run a comparison of monks to mages, but not just Lucius and Artur. It would be easier to choose a stat set for them if we have a general idea of where they fit in overall. If this is going to be an issue, then we should probably go ahead and give the monks their own unique stat caps after all and forgo the mage comparison. Either way it's already been noted that their magic is currently just a bit too high compared to the mages, not to the priests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercakete Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 Sounds like a good plan to me. So long as it's accurate, I'm fine with it. It's just annoying how underappreciated they seem. If the data matches, then I'll concede. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 Well we have enemy growth rates right here on SF. FE7 Monks= 30 Mag growth FE7 Mages= 55 Mag growth Same growths in FE8. So when it comes to generics at least, Mages have better Mag. Monks probably shouldn't be below Wind Mages though, for balance reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercakete Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 (edited) I agree that enemy growths may be the best piece for comparison since there are no shifts due to a charcter's individual abilities. That is, enemies are generic enough to compare. Alright, then. Wind mage stats it is. If GM approves, of course. Edited October 17, 2010 by Mercakete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 I'll approve it. Now let's see, who are the fire supports that you can cling to ... Esphyr, Charlotte, Kelas, Isotov, Reika- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercakete Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 (edited) Haha; I support based on story, not based on stats ;) Also, you have some OP editing to do, Mr. GM. Edited October 17, 2010 by Mercakete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 That's good to know ^_^ STAT CAPS UPDATED Monks now have new stat caps identical to wind mages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 (edited) Okay.....So I have some things to say. The main reason I disagree with Wind Mage caps, is now Monks hit everything. Light removing luck from the avoid means they can literally hit everything, since Thieves with capped speed and luck is only 6 avoid. Which Monks hit straight out. 2. Gaining staves on promo, means they are now clearly better than priests. That's why I suggest 4 str, 4 skl, 5 speed, and 4 resistance. They're more suited to combat, but their resistance makes them less bulkier as well, so Priests won't longer cease to exist. EDIT Okay, this. Monks = No nerf, no staves Priests = Nerf, staves Bishop = No nerf, staves Monks use...some caps somewhere. *cough* HP 4 MAG 5 SKL 4 SPD 5 DEF 2 RES 4 Edited October 17, 2010 by Shopkeeper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 Okay.....So I have some things to say. The main reason I disagree with Wind Mage caps, is now Monks hit everything. Light removing luck from the avoid means they can literally hit everything, since Thieves with capped speed and luck is only 6 avoid. Which Monks hit straight out. I thought Monks traded the Luck-null for the non-nerfed damage. Was I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 IIRC we had this discussion in chat and the following decision was reached. Monks: They do full damage with light magic. They do not have the luck nerf ability that Priests and Clerics have. (for obvious reasons) They use wind mage caps and gain +2 to all caps at promotion. (wind sage caps) Bishops: Can use staffs and light magic hits for full damage regardless of which class promoted to it. That means if a monk promotes to a bishop, he will gain staffs, and if a Priest promotes to a bishop he will gain full light damage. Are there any questions or concerns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 None. This whole monk thing doesn't matter to me since I doubt anyone'll make a monk. Second order of business. Dancers? Rein introduced a dancer that was approved and considering Rein's activity and how people wanna make dancers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 @ Dancer class I don't see why. Every attempt at a noncombatant class has failed thus far. Healers became semi-combatants, and people interested in making buffing units or dancers drop off the map eventually. Who are all these people who want dancers again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 Mostly me and a couple of new people are innevitably gonna want to make dancers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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