Lord of Azure Flame: Suggestions

[Snike]

Well, the issue is, we can't keep nerfing the skills, just because a certain character would break the system. The more we nerf them, the harder it gets, as Snowy throws stronger and stronger enemies at us. That's why I'm suggesting that, so we don't keep needing to have to change things due to a certain class. I mean, Full Tilt on a Warrior/Zerker would make sense. So would Daunt. Put either on a 'sin, and there's complaints. Resolve on a SM, or a FalcoKnight, isn't too broken. You put it on a General, or a WarZerker, and people complain. There has to be some compromise.

[Phoenix]

You'd think it would be somewhat obvious which classes get certain skills.

Using FE8 as an example:

Wyvern knights have that pierce skill

Generals have that defense skill(forgot the name)

I also forgot what the assassins got :/

Anyway, point is skills that have attributes typically seen in certain classes should be available to those classes.

Example:

A defense increasing skill should only go to the following:

Generals

Wyvern Lords

Heroes(maybe)

Great Knights

Halbardiers

etc

A critical hit rate increasing skill should only go to the following:

Assassins

Rogues

Sword Masters

Snipers

Etc

An evasion boosting skill should only go to the following:

Falcon Knights

Wyvern Knights(FE8 version, not the wyvern riders)

Sword Masters

Assassins

Rogues

Nomadic Troopers/Rangers(maybe)

Etc

Just use stereotypical traits as a basis for restriction arguments.

[riariadne]

There are no Rangers. Rangers are not early as cool as NT and shouldn't be grouped with them.

Also, new hit/eva system yay or nay?

[-Cynthia-]

Snike was making the exact opposite point you were, in the sense that giving high evd classes more Evd unbalances things and thus those skills should only be available to classes with low/med Evd.

I don't see a problem with the current system.

Edited June 22, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[riariadne]

The one that absolutely sucks for people who intended to have high evade characters? There's sort of a problem there. Also, it balances out luck since some people were saying it's so useless... =/

What's the evade formula now? Speed+1/2 luck? That's so low. Everyone's going to get hit all the time and it'll suck.

[Snike]

Then there's the not so clear skills, such as Resolve. Technically, mages and archers should be out, but from there, it's a bit difficult. Some say, Can't give it to Generals/Zerkers, too much power, others say, Can't give it to SMs, because they never start with it, Rogues are out, due to brokenness... Which is why I feel it there needs to be a skill committee.

Edit: I'm just saying that because you basically went on a crusade against dodgetanks. >.>"

Edited June 22, 2010 by Snike

[riariadne]

I went on a crusade against dodgetanks what. Chase exists and that was supposed to be what he does. Then avo got nerfed.

[Snike]

That was at Cynthia. >.>

[-Cynthia-]

I've already refuted that several times with numbers.

Take Reika for instance. She has 6 Spd/2 Lck I believe (+1 from knives) so that's 8 Evd. This makes her invincible against 2 Skl, 3 needs a 6, 4 needs a 5 or 6. The only thing that can achieve over 50% hit on her is a 6 Skl character, which most classes can't even reach.

And she can invest another 2 pts in Lck for another +1, basically meaning that a character maxed out with Skl has a 50% chance of hitting one maxed out for Evade, which strikes me as balanced. All the complaints so far have been unable to refute situations like these. Unless you guys want a system skewed towards Evd, but that's just fucking retarded.

I've already changed hit=evd is a miss for compensation. I see no more reason to favor high Spd characters, you already get more offense due to doubling, you don't need excessive defense too.

Edited June 22, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Phoenix]

Snike's trying to balance the skills I guess.

I'm trying to suggest giving classes their natural traits in the form of skills. There's nothing OP about high evade characters dodging 90% of all attacks thrown at them, but going down in like two hits. There's also nothing OP about a armor knight being immune to a Myrm's attacks, but being demolished by mages. It's not unbalanced, it's just rock paper scissors like every other FE aspect.

Besides, since you're still tweaking the skills anyway, if you don't want a skill to become "broken" on certain units, then just nerf them. It doesn't make sense for a Falcon Knight to not be able to get a high evasion skill, and instead get something that makes more sense on another unit just as an example.

Falcon Knight: Defense skill

General: Evasion skill

That's off.

Falcon Knight: Evasion skill

General: Defense skill

That makes more sense. I propose tweaking the skills to fit the classes they're being used on though.

You could set different skill limitations such as caps on augmentation(in english, set the limits for the skill per class instead of nerfing them for all classes).

@ Lightning

You know that Rangers and NTs are almost exactly the same concept-wise right? :/

@ Cynthia

That's the thing though! The classes already have caps established. There's nothing balanced about increasing hit rates just to make high evaders more vulnerable. Should we nerf defense next just so thieves can be used against generals? That doesn't make sense. Some classes should be useless against others. It's not unbalanced. You're slowly making it so that any unit can destroy any other unit with a good roll and that's too flat.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Phoenix

[riariadne]

My system would have this though...

Max skill max luck d00d: 8 base hit

Max speed max luck d00d: 10 eva

How is that so eva based please.

Better example:

4 skill/luck dood 6 base hit

4 speed/luck dood 7 base eva

That system's actually really hit favoring.

^Ranger's sword animation is disgraceful when compared to NTs. NT>Ranger

Edited June 22, 2010 by Lightning

[-Cynthia-]

@ Phoenix You're assuming that having units be invulnerable to each other is somehow balanced because it occurs in FE. This is incorrect, FE just isn't balanced. No one should be reaching 12 Evd ever unless they're losing 5 HP a turn or something.

@Lightning Then why change to your system at all? All it seems to do is force attackers to invest in luck to compensate for a speed buff. I'm really failing to see how we need to make Spd a more powerful stat.

I already nerfed Defense. Didn't you see Ether's long list of whining?

Edited June 22, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Snike]

More like equalizing the classes.

You're arguing that Full Tilt is over powered because of high-evade classes. I'm saying that why in hell would said classes want it, if they're dodging most of the time anyways? It doesn't make sense for a thief or a myrm to go rush recklessly at full speed and risk getting mauled when they can just dodge the attack easily with a simple movement. That sounds more like GenZerkRior behaviour. Continuing with that logic, it doesn't make sense that a man with a rather slim sword, or a small girl with knives should scare the hell out of enemies, except in specific circumstances. That's what the heavy units do. Likewise, which class is more likely to give up when they're on the verge of death? The armors and the axemen. I'm trying to divy them up to balance the classes, but still keep them in-character, so to speak. If it is such a problem, restrict the skills to certain classes. Phoenix is right about the crit skills, though, save for Wrath. Wrath is universal.

Edit: @ Defense nerf: I'm sort of pissed about it, because all Eric got was a point of hit, and he lost a point of evade and defense in return. The system hates Eric.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Snike

[riariadne]

@ Phoenix You're assuming that having units be invulnerable to each other is somehow balanced because it occurs in FE. This is incorrect, FE just isn't balanced. No one should be reaching 12 Evd ever unless they're losing 5 HP a turn or something.

@Lightning Then why change to your system at all? All it seems to do is force attackers to invest in luck to compensate for a speed buff. I'm really failing to see how we need to make Spd a more powerful stat.

I already nerfed Defense. Didn't you see Ether's long list of whining?

My problem is that the hit dice can make it so easy to hit people sometimes. If you've got 6 skill you're pretty much golden.

... Maybe I should spend less time complaining and just level up skill.

[Phoenix]

@ Cynthia

You're exaggerating.

All I'm suggesting is giving speed characters their speed, crit characters their crits, and defense characters their defense. It's not unbalanced at all. You still haven't explained why a thief should be able to defeat a general when a trio of mages could do the same thing. FE is balanced because to beat a general, you use the right class, you don't just throw Matthew at Bernard and call it a day. That's what you're going to end up doing in the rp if you keep uber balancing things. There's no excuse for a brigand to hit a peggie, high speed myrm, or thief even 40% of the time. You want to keep their one asset low enough for them to require assistance in with any and every enemy provided their roll averages are what I'd expect.

@ Lightning

So it's because of the animations? ... what?

Edited June 22, 2010 by Phoenix

[-Cynthia-]

Only a few classes can even reach 6 skill though. Many can only reach 4, so if you invest in Spd/Luck enough you won't get hit that often. Not to mention they have to put those points into Skl, just as you put them into Spd, so it's a fair tradeoff.

@Snike The world hates Eric. You can add a point to Def next levelup. Also when there are 3 Spd enemies he has a significant offensive advantage over most.

@Phoenix It still works like that Birdbrain. Do you not read my examples?

Reika has 8 Evd. Max Skl brigand is 3. It only hits her on a 6. Another 2 points in Lck and she's invincible to everything with Skl cap 3. How is that not dodgy?

Edited June 22, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Snike]

@Cynthia: Yep. I mis-calced, though. He lost three points in RES, as well. And he's getting HP next level, along with capped SPD and SKL.

@Phoenix: Actually, you do. See, there's these things called Armor slayers....

[Phoenix]

@ Cynthia

I always read your examples, and I'm not just talking about Reika here. There's nothing wrong with adjusting the SKL caps. Just like high evade characters have to invest in speed and luck, high hit characters have to invest in SKL. If you want it more balanced, just raise the SKL caps instead of putting speed down.

Personally being unable to be hit by a low hit character under any circumstances isn't OP, it's just a bad match up(like a brigand versus Jaffar). You could easily fix this by attacking Reika with another better suited unit(like another thief or a high hit character). Stop flattening things just so low hit characters stand a chance.

Next thing you know characters will be getting back up after being knocked unconscious even without Miracle and a failed saving throw. Oh wait, that already happened :P

BTW. I'm not arguing for invincibility here. I'm trying to keep low hit characters (and any unsuited class) from getting an edge they don't need. When you want a thief caught, send a fast character. If you want a peggie shot down, get an archer.

@ Snike

I've got no objection to armor slayers ... or hit rate boosting items for that matter.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Phoenix

[Snike]

@ Cynthia

I always read your examples, and I'm not just talking about Reika here. There's nothing wrong with adjusting the SKL caps. Just like high evade characters have to invest in speed and luck, high hit characters have to invest in SKL. If you want it more balanced, just raise the SKL caps instead of putting speed down.

Personally being unable to be hit by a low hit character under any circumstances isn't OP, it's just a bad match up(like a brigand versus Jaffar). You could easily fix this by attacking Reika with another better suited unit(like another thief or a high hit character). Stop flattening things just so low hit characters stand a chance.

Next thing you know characters will be getting back up after being knocked unconscious even without Miracle and a failed saving throw. Oh wait, that already happened :P

BTW. I'm not arguing for invincibility here. I'm trying to keep low hit characters (and any unsuited class) from getting an edge they don't need. When you want a thief caught, send a fast character. If you want a peggie shot down, get an archer.

@ Snike

I've got no objection to armor slayers ... or hit rate boosting items for that matter.

Bold: That's happened, what, twice now? And he wasn't unconscious, he was dead. Big difference.

Italics: That was poking fun at the class argument you had. Yeah, it's OPed in this RP. But, you can always hope.

Also, and High-fail characters have to invest in plot.

[-Cynthia-]

Phoenix, you need to learn how to read. Seriously. Reika can make herself invincible against all the low Skl characters with an extra 2 points in Lck. You already have exactly what you want, so stop bitching about it. Even a max Skl character would only hit her half the time.

"But it's not all about Reika". Other combat characters haven't invested as highly in Evd, so they're going to get hit more often. If you don't like Reika as an example, Tessa has the same Evd (instead of knives she has a support boost).

Basically, all atributes should be relatively equal, or else Spd is going to have to cost twice as much to invest in. It's called balance, a concept you seem to know absolutely nothing about.

Edited June 22, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Phoenix]

@ Cynthia

Is the Cynthia offended by the Phoenix's FE concepts? :P

Look, I read it, enough times to see what you meant. That's why I suggested upping the SKL caps again(so that the only excuse for not ever being able to hit the dear old thieves and peggies was low investment).

As far as what I want, I'm only in this argument because I'm bored, and like talking about the rules of engagement to pass the time. Besides, it never hurts to make a suggestion or two and see what others think. I don't see the need for mockery :D

@ Snike

Yeaaah. I guess that is twice.

Also lol at investing in plot XD

[Snike]

*waits on skill rebuttal*

[-Cynthia-]

The problem with just upping skill caps and increasing the spd bonus to evd is that it makes attributes unequal. Spd gives you 1.5 per point, Skl only gives 1 per point. Spd also provides the additional defensive boost of not being doubled by fast things and the important offensive boost of being able to double more. Thus, classes that can invest more in Spd become more powerful than thse who can't invest as much. Reducing Spd's bonus to Evd evens things out more.

[riariadne]

... I guess that's a good point. I think what's really killing my avoid was my awful luck for a while, but now that it's 3 I'll shut up.

[Phoenix]

Well why didn't you say that before? Your only arguments that I remember til now was that Reika was a dodgetank on most characters, and that they were too good offensively, and that alone isn't a good enough reason to nerf speed, just like nerfing skills just because certain units pwn with them isn't a good idea. Couple dodgetanking, and doubling with overall OP class power ... and I can more easily accept your argument.

Anyway ... there's not much point in upping the requirements for a double(to something nuts like x3 speed or x2.5 speed), or upping skl to 1.5 per point, since you'd have to adjust all the caps again just to balance everything else, so I guess this works.