A message and question to all mafia players

[Tables]

Alright, with Fayt's Mafia having to be cancelled due to inactivity, and various other games going incredibly slowly with few posts per day, I think it's time to seriously consider the future of mafia on this forum. There's a few questions above, could all regular and semi-regular mafia players take a minute to answer them? Thanks.

Let me just say this, too. Mafia isn't primarily a game about getting fancy night abilities and following those with good ones. It's a game about watching what people say, reading between the lines and discerning the truth and the lies between people. For that to be effective, you need lots of discussion about various elements of the game - lots of discussion makes a good game. I'm in a game on another forum, that's almost at 1000 posts, on day 3. Obviously that might be a little extreme to expect here, but the point is, more activity is good, even if it just means everyone is making two posts per (real) day: Is that too much to ask?

I know I'm not really in charge of mafia here, but mafia here is dying, and we need to do something. Whether that's give it a kickstart, downsize, or jump off the sinking ship, however, I'll leave it to all you to decide.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'm thinking that we need to default to mini games of 7-12 people. That way, we can get most of the active participants involved in the games. The problem seems to be that we've got a lot of games at 18, 19, 20+ members and that means that we're waiting on people who really aren't planning on participating.

[Zanarkin]

Multiple posts throughout the day (5+)

I enjoy playing it and would like to keep playing games

Reduce the number of games going on, so people can focus on games they're actually in

More mini games, for quick and easy participation

I think mini mafia games work fine, people seem to loose interest a few days after the star, and mini mafia seems to be very active due to there being less people. We can also set these up in Epic Mafia. Or otherwise in MSN or some sort of thing.

[Tables]

Thanks for the comments and votes so far. Even if this doesn't actually change anything technically, it'll give mafia moderators an idea of what's going on in the community.

[Balcerzak]

I'm going to have to chime in and say that it seems things are more successful in a sleeker and slimmer environment than in a large sprawling one. There can and have been exceptions to this rule, and a few rather successful large games do come to mind, but recently I've really been feeling that the mini-mafia games have had a much greater luster to them. Then again, this is also not always the case, as I distinctly remember one mini-mafia game that was crawlingly slow with little to no discussion, whereas another of the same format actually generated some significant buzz.

So on that account, I don't think it's actually necessarily the size of the game, it's just that the larger games have a statistically higher propensity to have a much less desireable active:non-active ratio.

That said, in my personal opinion I beg to differ on what seems to be a disparagement of games with an abundance of special powers. I agree that special powers can make for problems if that's what's solely being relied upon, but in my opinion, it seems that disabling private communication, and quite possibly having a mafia willing to take risks and fake-claim could easily throw wrenches into worries about "follow-the-cop", but on the other hand certain recent setups have made fake claims nigh impossible for the mafia. (e.g. Cop recieving the whole, detailed role PM means that if you're a mafia trying to fake a cop, your job just got 10 times harder. Crafting an elaborate role PM to provide a fake clear for your partner, in Fayt's game the mafia didn't even get their own partner's PMs so they couldn't try bus one and then establish inno cred for the rest.)

You can see my poll results for some of the rest of my opinions. I feel like there was more I was going to say, but I lost track of it somewhere, and I should probably get back to my RP soon.

[Tables]

Thanks Bal, I think I agree with your opinion there, some of the norms here are starting to make play difficult, especially the point about the cop. As for those two mini games, it was really the fact that one had six of the most active players, and the other had a few active players, but mostly lurking.

Oh, that's another thing, lurking. It's really bad for mafia games, because it causes a vicious circle. You're lurking because there's nothing to say, and there's nothing to say because everyone is lurking. So if there seems to be nothing to talk about (e.g. a day start), generate discussion somehow by doing something - vote someone and ask people to follow you, see who does. Just say something about what strategy you think the town should play - and debate with others who have said this too, so you can start finding out what people think. Comment on people's posting styles earlier in the game - is there something unusual in them? Basically, even towards the start of the game, you should find something to talk about, and no matter what point in the game you're at, if you come on to the thread, you should at least be able to make a post. And doing so helps the game move forward.

[riariadne]

1)2nd option

2)1st option

3)2nd option

4)1st, 2nd, and last options.

The first three should be kinda self explanatory.

The last one... not so much.

I like how we play games here- we can have more varied roles and fun ways to play the game, and possibly attract interest. So I like the uncommon roles. But I also think we should choose roles a bit differently. RNG decided roles aren't very fun at times- if the mafia are all great players it's not much fun, and the same goes the other way around. I think we should make some people have a certain role based on their w/l ratio to even up the teams, then use RNG for the rest of the players.

[Psych]

I'm kind of agreeing it's turning into a follow the night role style. But the inactivity is a major part too.

I'd guess maybe if you had to, you could change roles up, EG:Doctor can save two people, Cop can investigate two people, Mafia can kill two people. Things like that. It speeds large games up, and opens a lot more discussion too.

[Tables]

By that, you mean two people in the game, or two people every night? Because if it's the first, it could help the follow-the-cop style, and if it's the second... no, that'd just make things worse, I think

[Psych]

It would depend on the total number of people on which style you choose.

It would help in a large game so you have more villagers and not like 3 cops, and the other style would be the follow-the-cop style.

It seems to be coming down to: How can the people with the night roles pursuade the townies?

A simple solution would be plains and vanillas, but that's just a quick fix.

[General Spoon]

Pokemon mafia has been designed for everybody to have a part to play, as nobody is a generic townie. Additionally, the roles in the game are not known, there should be several new things keeping it fresh, and I have tried to balance it. Oh, and flavor. That said, it will be awhile before that happens, since its currently low on the queue. I've also grown to dislike hosting anonymous games, so it will be played on SF. Also, it needs 30 people to play it.

This may sound like an advertisement (perhaps it is), but it would be quite different from other games in that everybody is encouraged to actively participate etc.

[Scarlet]

I voted for:

A) Multiple posts throughout the day (5+)

B) I enjoy playing it and would like to keep playing games

C) Reduce the number of games going on, so people can focus on games they're actually in

D) More standard games with common roles and standard rules, for deeper strategy AND More mini games, for quick and easy participation

About C, it's happened to me already - as a dedicated mafia player, I want to participate in basically every mafia game that has a standard theme or a theme that interests me, or in other words, in almost all of them - even though I know I can't handle more than two games at once very well at all. This inevitably means that I start being less active in one or sometimes even all of them, which of course also affects the other players (as there is less discussion) and generally generates a downward spiral as the one you described earlier. If there were less mafia games available at the same time (but two is fine), this problem would stop existing for me.

I also feel like I should emphasize that extending the phases even more is not a good idea in my opinion. If discussion has stopped for a while, chances are that the players just want the current phase to end. If the time limit then forces the players to wait like 60 more hours for that to happen, it obviously drags the game out unnecessarily and starts to bore some people, which then again results in less discussion. From my point of view, the best solution would be to resort to the standard 24 hour phases and allowing to extend them for the current phase if there's still some discussion going on.

About D, fancy roles 'n stuff are all fine and nice for a change, but it's really a bit annoying if those games become the norm - oh hey, everyone has super-awesome roles, but nobody knows which roles there are, so have fun finding out who's mafia! ...what I'm trying to say is, if it isn't known to the players which roles exist and which ones don't, the mafia can basically give the town the most absurd lies and the town cannot exclude the possibility of that actually being true. It's basically the janitor applied in reverse, but on all players, which sometimes only really leaves the town with the option of random-voting and scum-hunting (though the latter, again, is impossible to do if none of your targets actually bother to respond).

And mini games just are quicker and easier than large ones, though I don't mind well-done large ones either.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Raymond

[cheezperson]

1. A few posts every day (2-4)

• My posting really depends on how busy I am, but this seems like a good average.

2. I enjoy playing it and would like to keep playing games

• Pretty self-explanatory

3. Reduce the number of games going on, so people can focus on games they're actually in

• I think this is kinda why mafia began to die here. When i started, it was 1 game at a time. Pretty soon, there was a huge waiting-list for games to be played and we decided to try doing a bunch more at the same time, which actually screwed me over in one game. We need to set a limit as for how many games can go on at one time and how many signups can be happening at one time.

4. More unusual games with interesting roles and unusual rules, to keep things fresh

• If I wanted to play a standard game of mafia, I'd go to epic.

4. More games on separate forums for the anonymity

• This idea seems unpopular, but it allows past grudges and knowledge to not be a factor. The weaker, less aggressive players have a chance to really prove what they can accomplish without fear of ridicule (unless they really are weak), and the stronger players have a better shot at surviving longer into the games. The passwords and such can be annoying, but I for one really enjoy these games.

[Kriemhild]

Make a rule that axes inactive players if they don't post within 48 hours of their last post. PM them after 24 hours to tell them to get on. During signups, make the actual game based on only about 80% of the number of people that signed up. The remaining players will be part of the replacement list to join when an old player leaves or gets axed due to inactivity. Dead players that don't have any unknown knowledge of their own should be allowed to replace inactive players or players that dropped out. Little stuff like these can greatly help keep the game active.

We need more interesting roles and unusual rules, or it'll get boring. Also, someone should probably start a Quick Mafia, which ignores the waiting list and could be completed within 24 hours maximum after starting the game. It keeps players in the Mafia mood, despite being horribly unbalanced most of the time. DETHY Mafia could be done in only half an hour.

I still think private communication should be banned because there are just too many ways it can be abused. Roleclaims should be done in public imo, where everyone can see it and can try to contest it or believe it. Quoting role PMs should also be banned, because they're too difficult to successfully fabricate, which depends more on how well the player knows the mod's writing style and role PM structure and less about the player's skill. Paraphrasing is fine.

[Tables]

We need more interesting roles and unusual rules, or it'll get boring. Also, someone should probably start a Quick Mafia, which ignores the waiting list and could be completed within 24 hours maximum after starting the game. It keeps players in the Mafia mood, despite being horribly unbalanced most of the time. DETHY Mafia could be done in only half an hour.

I still think private communication should be banned because there are just too many ways it can be abused. Roleclaims should be done in public imo, where everyone can see it and can try to contest it or believe it. Quoting role PMs should also be banned, because they're too difficult to successfully fabricate, which depends more on how well the player knows the mod's writing style and role PM structure and less about the player's skill. Paraphrasing is fine.

I think I'll start a mini mafia game Dethy in a few minutes, then, just to fill in the time. As for PMs, I think it's really a case by case type thing. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. I was actually planning to ban role PM quoting in my game for the reasons you said.

[General Spoon]

I still think private communication should be banned because there are just too many ways it can be abused. Roleclaims should be done in public imo, where everyone can see it and can try to contest it or believe it. Quoting role PMs should also be banned, because they're too difficult to successfully fabricate, which depends more on how well the player knows the mod's writing style and role PM structure and less about the player's skill. Paraphrasing is fine.

This is up to the discretion of the moderator, not some arbitrary ratings board.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I still think private communication should be banned because there are just too many ways it can be abused. Roleclaims should be done in public imo, where everyone can see it and can try to contest it or believe it. Quoting role PMs should also be banned, because they're too difficult to successfully fabricate, which depends more on how well the player knows the mod's writing style and role PM structure and less about the player's skill. Paraphrasing is fine.

I agree to the point where I'm against even playing in games that allow PM'ing.

[Jaybee]

Make a rule that axes inactive players if they don't post within 48 hours of their last post. PM them after 24 hours to tell them to get on. During signups, make the actual game based on only about 80% of the number of people that signed up. The remaining players will be part of the replacement list to join when an old player leaves or gets axed due to inactivity. Dead players that don't have any unknown knowledge of their own should be allowed to replace inactive players or players that dropped out. Little stuff like these can greatly help keep the game active.

This this this this this this. Of course, if they have some valid explanation, then ... yeah.

I still think private communication should be banned because there are just too many ways it can be abused. Roleclaims should be done in public imo, where everyone can see it and can try to contest it or believe it. Quoting role PMs should also be banned, because they're too difficult to successfully fabricate, which depends more on how well the player knows the mod's writing style and role PM structure and less about the player's skill. Paraphrasing is fine.

I'm fine with PMs, but the only thing I dislike is when someone asks everyone to role claim, like in Choral Mafia II. Aside from that, it's fine, and the players should be allowed to ask the mod to help them fake a role PM if they want.

[Life]

Mafia isn't primarily a game about getting fancy night abilities and following those with good ones. It's a game about watching what people say, reading between the lines and discerning the truth and the lies between people.

Well fuck Tables, it would be nice if people stopped making me do all the thinking for them. I'm usually the only person who actually tries to win a game starting on Day 1 rather than wait for things to fall into place. Especially when I get a shit role and end up doing more for the town than someone with a good role (*cough*Train Mafia 2 where I singlehandedly got Mafia members from both teams to claim to me thanks to pure bullshit*cough*).

Sometimes, I feel like I'm restricted to games of anonymitivity since people expect me to do shit. I suffered from the "kill Life on Night 1" stuff for a while and that really sucked because during that time, I was also auto-lynched BECAUSE I survived the first night and was therefore automatically Mafia. Not to mention that since I keep pulling Mafia, people expect every word out of my mouth to be a lie. Which gets fucking annoying especially when I'm trying to win a game for myself/my team and another person allied with me cocks the whole thing up.

In all seriousness, we should get rid of half of the stupid roles. Lightning and Fayt's first games come to mind since half of the roles made night phases really fucking random. Not to mention that I've heard players complain that if they don't get a decent role, they don't feel important which is complete bullshit and they know it. Truth of the matter is that they don't want to use their brains to try to win a game and would rather get lucky or have someone else (namely you and I) do it for them.

[Kriemhild]

This is up to the discretion of the moderator, not some arbitrary ratings board.

EVERYTHING is up to the moderator. In fact, I even saw a Mafia game that was meant to surprise all the Townies by making the Mafia have their kill during the DAY instead of the Night. There are absolutely NO fixed rules.

[Crysta]

I like traditional games more than the ones with elaborate set-ups and roles. It's easier to slip into and I don't find it boring or anything even if I'm a generic townie.

I prefer to have them on this forum, too, simply because there's less of a hassle to play. I either have to favorite the forums and prune them out later, or I have to go here before I go there. The anonymity is interesting, though, even if it seems to work against me more than for me.

Mafia trends don't actually last for more than a season, though, so there will be a point when people will stop joining and playing.

My activity is sort of cockblocked right now because my net time in general is more scarce due to work and having shifts late at night (which is when I would normally come online). I'll probably try to clock in BEFORE work, but I like to sleep in lol.

That, and my connection is being cut soon. :(

That's not bound to last forever, but there may be two or three days when I just can't get to the computer.

[Deliriyum]

I don't think too many games are the problem, I think its the size of the game. 20 players is way too many for a mafia game. I also think we can increase activity by making the days shorter. The longer the days are, the more people have to wait, and the more people lose interest in the game. I think we should gear towards small(7-13 player) and quick mafia games.