H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[grandjackal]

Draug is better off as a hunter or fighter since you already get a lot of good spear users (Catria, Palla, Shiida, Sirius).

Yeah, after chapter 3, since your good lancers are flying off elsewhere. For some early chapters, I really would prefer mobility. Especially with chapter 2. 18 might can potentially 2RKO soldiers, can deal with swordie cavs, isn't a punk like Roddy...

Chapter 4 and on yeah he'd prefer to be something else, but...Early on, I feel he might be a bit more useful as a cav.

Don't forget Linde has to be absorbing more HP than she's taking if you want her to tank successfully.

Paperblade pointed out hte problem. However, what I have noticed is that giving her one immediately letes her tank out even dracos as early as she arrives.

I'd give the first Angelic Robe to Catria. She doesn't usually cap HP since she spends quite a lot of her early levels as a pegasus and you'll probably early promote her so she misses out on a bunch of HP there as well.

Who gives a damn if she doesn't max HP? It's never going to be an issue anyways.

Second Angelic Robe should go to Shiida, who is naturally weak in the HP department. Third robe I'm not sure about.

Minerva. Depending on numbers and thanks to her weapon ranks, she can actually pull a durability lead at certain points of the game.

Energy Drops I'd give the first to Marth so his Rapier is more effective. Second to Shiida to help her Wing Spear and also because her STR naturally sucks. Third I'd suggest Catria or maybe another one on Shiida.

I feel Shiida is overrated, because once everyone starts having speed like she does, what advantage does she have anymore? Tons of Luck? Does not outdo defensive and offensive leads. She has a good long while of killer utility with Wing Spear and Dragonpikes, but once those are done with I would put different thoughts into using her seriously all the time.

Also, you bring up units who have dual effective weapons that can be forged. Considering for hte price of one I could probably have added +2 might to the weapon and have gotten +6 effective damage out of it.

Speedwings I'd give the first to Marth so he can double the 3x knights - he will probably need one anyway to avoid being doubled by Medeus, so it's not like it's wasted. Second would go to Palla, because she's naturally slow. Third I would give to Draug or possibly Sirius.

Marth and Paula sound fine to me (though I feel an Elysian Whip cures whatever problems she may have), but I dunno about Draug. 5 base speed with a hilariously high growth?

Dragon Shields will be good on Catria and My Unit to buff their potential as Generals when the need arises. Same with Talismans - you will be begging for more +RES when those Ch 20 sages show up and deal 30-35 DMG to your generals per hit even with holy water.

Ehh, that's true I suppose.

Spirit Dust, Secret Books, and Ashera Icons are probably not worth the money.

Indeed.

[Deliriyum]

Wat.

He has 70% growth as a Swordmaster. He'll cap it naturally at like... 15/16 or something. Luke doesn't need it anymore then Palla does.

True, I was more thinking about how it would help him as a cavalier. I'm not sure he should switch to myrmidon right away.

[fatgamecat]

hmm that's interesting about Draug, but I'd rather keep him as a hunter because he needs to get out of E and D bows asap. I'd give a Speedwing to Draug so he can start doubling things sooner and build up his weapon levels faster. If you can't tell, his greatest weakness is having to work out of E bows and I'd like to do everything possible to hasten that growth.

60 HP/high DEF Catria can take some serious mid-late game punishment as a general. You'll want every bit of HP you can give her. I think Catria is best left holding the role of 'durability' with naturally high DEF growths and more than enough enough SPD as a general to avoid being doubled. Minerva fails on several factors there - lower spear level, terrible SPD as a general, doesn't cap any stats, etc.

The reason I gave Palla a Speedwing is so that she can continue to double enemies as a cavalier. It's about staying ahead of the enemy SPD curve at any given chapter so that I can clear the chapter more quickly.

Shiida's wing spear is useful all the way up to Ch 20 where she can help wipe out the huge wave of Paladins. I'd say that's a pretty good run of usefulness. Plus she makes a kickass Falcoknight and can give A support to Marth vs Medeus.

I actually had to both give Marth an Energy Drop and forge +2 onto his rapier so he could one round the ch 3x knights. His rapier is pretty weaksauce without forges/buffs. Again giving STR to Marth is a long term insurance against him not capping STR by the final chapter.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Oh, I forgot to mention that my Draug is actually being used as a Cav. Actually, I'm just rolling a big fat pile of cavs right now. Cav!Draug, Cav!MU (originally merc in prologue), Cav!Paola, Cav!Catria (though Paola goes peg every once in a while when I need the extra wings), and even still rolling Luke from time to time, even though he's kinda outlived his usefulness and is probably about to be benched. Meanwhile, Draco!Arran and Draco!Sirius for right now (will probably go sm sirius fairly soon but i want the dracos to be able to take out the physic bishop).

The only stat booster I've bought is the angelic robe. I've got ~5k after selling the ch4 Bullion from the boss, since I stocked up somewhat on Javelins (+2 might forge just so they're somewhere near reasonable), and I'm not using a single axe user right now (which is remarkably viable, considering that lances and swords are great in the earlygame. I did use Berserker!Arran for ch3x actually, just to try it out, and it wasn't bad. Too bad Berserker doesn't get C Axes, I would have killed for that hammer usage and Bord is a useless fuck.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Deliriyum]

Can somebody explain why Shiida is so high?

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[Deliriyum]

Well, to me her offense isn't that great. Sure she'll double most everything, but she doesn't have the strength behind it. then you have people like Draug and Luke who will have the strength behind it. Caeda doesn't carry herself through the dragon chapters very well. She needs a dragonpike to be able to pose any sort of a threat to the dragons, Then, she is 2HKO'd in return, so she can't really make the most of her mobility. but I guess everyone is being 2HKO'd

Edited August 25, 2010 by Hemlock

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[Aquilae]

I've only played up to Chapter 14 of Lunatic, but from what I've seen Sheeda does better than Luke offensively when Luke isn't doubling. She does quite well in the dragon chapters I've played so far, because she can double and kill the 18 Speed dragons with a Dragonpike. Luke and Sirius couldn't ORKO these guys with an effective weapon, as they couldn't double or didn't have enough Strength as an SM, and generally required a big chip to kill the Dragons after they had been weakened (Luke was doing about 35 damage out of 50 with a Dragonpike, and noone else wanted to take an extra counter except General MU).

I didn't think many other units could handle the Dragons well without some sort of effective weapon, only Palla, Catria and MU could cause significant damage to the Dragons with their Silver Lances. Draug for me was far to fragile, and was being 2HKOed all over the place like Shiida.

However, I found it pretty annoying that she was being borderline OHKOed by Silver Lance Armors / Cavs, and needs a +DEF shard and needs to be at full health to take a counter. She ORKOes them if she can take a counter which really helped in those instances. I haven't forged the Dragonpike or the Wing Spear though, because it seems they are ORKOing fine without the forges, and won't OHKO either way even with a high Mt forge unlike H5. Plus, forges are very expensive >_>

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[Aquilae]

I guess I must have been a little below average for HP / Def since she was borderline OHKOed as a Cav. I didn't have many problems with her durability after she promoted though. Her Strength does seem to be average though (all 13 points of it >_>)

[arvilino]

A useful thing about Shiida that most other characters can't emulate is her high base luck(13) and luck growth(80%). She can put more safetly in the range of a Killer Weapon users, Snipers and Beserkers than any other character. This means quite a bit since criticals in Lunatic are going to generally kill someone.

[Paperblade]

I think Horace could stand to move out of Free Silvers. He doesn't do much, but Ch. 11 Dragons have 44-45HP and 8 Defense.

Horace with a Silver Bow (he requires an Arms Scroll) only needs 2 attack to OHKO reliably (+1 might forge, a shard that gives Str). Now, this isn't exactly special, but I would argue that this is a fair bit more useful than a joker like Matthis. He also has auto B lances as a General/Paladin/Draco, which means he can use the Dragonpike or Silvers in upcoming chapters (although whether or not he's worth using past Ch. 11 is arguable)

Also, due to his auto D Bows as a General or Warrior (which puts him halfway to B as a Sniper), using an Arms Scroll in that class gives him a bit more WEXP (he'll have 150 rather than 135). He also has pretty good growths (50+ Str/Spd/Def in almost every class, exceptions are 45 Def in Horseman/SM, 30 Spd in General, and 40 Spd in Paladin) and is essentially a later joining Sirius.

[grandjackal]

Sounds dandy to me. Though, if you're going to give Horace a Scroll, why not just have him go Horseman? Might be wasted on the Sniper, but certainly not the Horseman. He'll keep Sniper for terrain mobility, but on flat ground? Letting Horace have horse mobility sounds paramount and being unable to build more bow rank as a sniper detriments that.

Questions though.

-Navarre. Considering he's been gettng quite a bit of attention, how does giving him an Energy Drop sound? Ya know, like one form the base shop?

-Same with Cain, though the exception being would it be wise to toss a wing his way? He'd basically be Navarre with Lance rank to fall back on (No matter what lance class he is, he'll have C lances at least after promotion).

-Are weapons scrolsl available in the base shop as well? Pirate Barst with Hammer, people...Armors in chapter 6 only have 9 speed.

-Now for a last thought that you all will see as a total GJ moment, but for some reason I can't shake off the feeling that when given something, either Dice or Malice are going to suddenly become...able. I wouldn't say they become instant classics, btu I just get this feeling. Hmm...How much Str you need to OHKO flying dragons with Silver Bows again?

Edited August 26, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Mekkah]

- Navarre. Considering he's been gettng quite a bit of attention, how does giving him an Energy Drop sound? Ya know, like one form the base shop?

I don't know, do the math.

-Same with Cain, though the exception being would it be wise to toss a wing his way? He'd basically be Navarre with Lance rank to fall back on (No matter what lance class he is, he'll have C lances at least after promotion).

I don't know, do the math.

-Are weapons scrolsl available in the base shop as well? Pirate Barst with Hammer, people...Armors in chapter 6 only have 9 speed.

Yes, they're available.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm not going to be a fan of giving contested items to people so they can get out of Free Silvers. The Linde bit is mainly because she gets a huge huge HUGE boost in performance with a Robe, better than any other unit. She's the only non-MU unit that is able to both 2HKO and counter Dracoknights, which is a big deal. But giving Arms Scrolls to people like Dice and Maris so that they can do something that they're a: not especially good at, b: not unique in (you have Jeorge and probably Ryan doing the exact same thing by that point), and c: still need a Seal AND AN ARMS SCROLL to do. Blargh.

[_____]

I think people are starting to overrate sniping Flying Dragons. They're really only common in Chapter 11. There are a few in Chapters 12 and 13, but there aren't an overwhelmingly large amount of them and they really don't appear again until after Chapter 20x, and even then, they're only there in Chapter 21 and Final.

[grandjackal]

I'm not going to be a fan of giving contested items to people so they can get out of Free Silvers. The Linde bit is mainly because she gets a huge huge HUGE boost in performance with a Robe, better than any other unit. She's the only non-MU unit that is able to both 2HKO and counter Dracoknights, which is a big deal. But giving Arms Scrolls to people like Dice and Maris so that they can do something that they're a: not especially good at, b: not unique in (you have Jeorge and probably Ryan doing the exact same thing by that point), and c: still need a Seal AND AN ARMS SCROLL to do. Blargh.

You do realize that Dice and Malice have better bases than Horace, right? Not to say that Horace doesn't grow out of that quick (since he actually has quite a bit better growth), but for the most part? They wouldn't be that different. He doesn't start wining Str to Dice until 10 levels later and doesn't get any significant lead from there (something Malice copies since even though she starts 1 Str behind, the difference in Str is 10%). He's got better durability growths, but he's already 3-4 HP and 3-4 Def behind them.

Outside a seal (of which Dice and Malice can still get some unpromoted levels if they choose), they're practically the same character outside their main weapon rank: Sword and Axe. Malice can switch back to Swordmaster when she's done sniping flying dragons (Why is the Horseman class unavailable to females? what's so manly about the class?), and Dice can become a myriad for things, among them are Axe Draco, Warrior or Berserker, both with their respective weapons (Wyrm and Armorslayer, Poleaxe and Hammer, Ridersbane and Dragonpike).

Besides, you get more seals than you would ever need in this game. That really a problem? Secondly, all 3 of these guys most likely have another thing going for them: They will be used for longer than George will be. If they accomplish the same thing as George, but have more ranks along with actually growing into something, who gives a shit if George can do the same thing for only a brief period of time? Cause until someone finds how some of the "fantastic" lategame units can be used instead of bothering with growth units, it would be better for the long term to use one of these three.

I think people are starting to overrate sniping Flying Dragons. They're really only common in Chapter 11. There are a few in Chapters 12 and 13, but there aren't an overwhelmingly large amount of them and they really don't appear again until after Chapter 20x, and even then, they're only there in Chapter 21 and Final.

It doesn't stop them from being free EXP, which is the point. If you can mess with the dragons for that exp, you suddenly have a future.

[Mekkah]

(Why is the Horseman class unavailable to females? what's so manly about the class?)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

For the record I'm against doing the same for Horace anyway. "attempt to call tier list creator biased against specific shitty units unsuccessful"

The only reason I even thought about supporting it for Jake was because his obscene growths make the awesomeness of massive free EXP extremely notable.

[Deliriyum]

Does anyone else think that Draug's durability can warrant him to be lowered? Or is his speed just that good?

lvl 6

HP: 22/60%

Str: 9/40%

Skl: 5/55%

Spd: 11/60%

Def: 7/40%

At 15/1 Paladin he will have

31 hp

15 str

13 skl

17 spd

12 def

IIRC, He won't be doubling the dragons midgame, so we're left without his most important element, speed. The problem is, I don't know who to compare him to. Frey, Cain, Roger, Navarre will probably all be better than him at this point, but they can't boast 11 speed base in chapter 1. Ryan has similar jointime, but he has an entirely different job.

[Aquilae]

I don't think Cav -> Paladin could be considered Draug's best reclass path. It seems like Pirate -> Berserker / Draco or Hunter -> Sniper / Horseman is better because they have better growths than the Knight in all areas except Skill and Def. As a 15/1 Pirate / Berserker he will have 21 Speed, and he will hit 22 Speed at 15/2, allowing him to double the 18 Speed Fire Dragons midgame.

[grandjackal]

For the record I'm against doing the same for Horace anyway. "attempt to call tier list creator biased against specific shitty units unsuccessful"

The only reason I even thought about supporting it for Jake was because his obscene growths make the awesomeness of massive free EXP extremely notable.

Well, doing some math...

For a Silver Bow to OHKO flying dragons, you need 53-54 might behind it. Silver Bow alone with weapon rank brings that down by 37, so we need about 16-17 Str. Jake as a warrior has 12. You'd need to give him all 3 strength orbs (I believe they were Taurus, Leo and Gemini). Dice could pull off the same as a Sniper and only need 1 of those orbs, Malice at worst needing 2 and Horace specifically needing Leo. While he didn't take a seal, he's still taking orbs. Horace and Dice alone, despite overall being more resources than Jake, still gives me two useful units to Jake's 1 due to how many orbs he's hogging. Not to say you'd be using both Dice and Horace, but it's to show the possibility that with the orbs Jake's taking we could have 2 to his 1. On top of that, Horace and Dice have the desert, and Dice has 10x to muster a Roro kill and an arena.

Now upon realizing an earlier mistake I made due to not having stats, Jake as a Sniper would have 2 less Str of which OHKOing would be an impossibility without Parthia. Needless to say, if we can save up Parthia uses for it's Holy Water effect and for the meatier chip when returning mainland, the better. Now to Jake's credit, having 105% speed is no laughing matter, but to double on the mainland (again, now that we have stats) you need 24 AS. Jake would need 7 levels and switch to Swordmaster. Due to dragons, that is entirely a possibility in the 4 chapters he's available in. Dice and Malice would need 10 (but have 2 more chapters of availability, Malice would have silvers available to her), Horace needs 9. Str wise, Dice would have a base of 11, Malice would have a base of 10, Horace a base of 11 and Jake a base of...7.

He's still your weakest. Durability speaking, Dice would have 16 base HP and base Def of 7, Malice would have 1 more HP and tie that defense, Horace would have 13 base HP and..Well surprise surprise, 7 Def. What does Jake have? Well, 11-12 base HP and about 5 Def. Being durably worse than Malice, a character with 0 Def growth, is a bad thing.

Now offensively I should point this out. While I'm not keen on HP of enemies returning mainland, I believe I remember them having around 9 or 11 Def on paladins. Malice as a Swordmaster would have around 14 Str, so 26+2 might due to B rank with Silver. Horace as, let's say a Draco with Ridersbane, would have around 19 Str and with B rank with Ridersbane has around 43+1 might. Even at WTD nulling 3 might off her, it's possible she could do 32 damage to Horace's 35. Obviously the Ridersbane is superior due to forging and being able to avoid a counter, but she can do similar damage on the spot. Dice with his 20 Str as a Warrior and Pole Axes would have 47 might. He could go Draco for flight, but he could still stay Warrior for bow chip. Horace has stuff like General, Paladin and Draco due to his lance rank. At this point, Jake's just a weaker Dice with a stronger bow rank for Parthia going Sniper, or Silvers going warrior.

These 4 guys are an unusual bunch, but I feel that if we aren't going to lift Horace out of free silvers, I feel Jake might have to stay as well.

EDIT: Also yeah, I don't think Draug's gonna drop any time soon unless people start finding ways to get durability leads.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Deliriyum]

He has more problems as a pirate though. First, he has to get past E axes. Then, durability. At 15/1 he'll have 36/8 hp/def. Then, when he actually does get to the dragons, he doesn't have any effective weapons like he would if he could use lances.

As a hunter -> Sniper, He looks decent.

15/1 again, Hunter->Sniper

33 hp

15 st

15 sk

20 sp

10 df

I guess its a matter of preference. Paladin gives him effective weapons, Sniper keeps him safe, and Pirate makes him a glass cannon without any dragon-effective weapons

Yeah I guess Draug is fine where he is.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Hemlock