H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[fatgamecat]

See, this is the kind of post I've been waiting for you to make. Its just that the majority of your posts haven't had this kind of substance. Too many of your posts argue a character's 20/20 stats as their "make or break" point, while ignoring the rest of their performance. Also, I will admit that I was basing your "character" too closely off of your Maniac Mode guide since I've been playing Maniac Mode lately and have read your guide from time to time. I will admit I was ranting, and I'm sorry for that. I will concede this argument (Draug>Minerva), and I hope you continue to make more arguments like this one.

Sorry about that, I can be too vague sometimes with my reasoning about character picks. Yes my old guides may not be that great, but I'm trying my best for this one.

And yeah Paperblade I didn't consider that she had a multiplied crit rate there. And I'm still very impressed that you made it all the way through with a mage MU. I would have given up and restarted for sure.

[Colonel M]

Actually if someone could we should look further with all of the Grust Knights. While Belf is only a Spd point behind and -10% growth base in comparison, he also does have the upper hand of being able to pull off what Leiden was doing, only real weakness is he can do weird things like going to Sniper to double with a Spd shard vs. Ice Dragons and (probably) Dark Mages. The way I did it pretty much never involved Belf being in danger vs. Bandits in the chapter, so it's very possible to at least get somewhere close with him. Robert is... a tricky pony. He would probably either have to go to Swordmaster immediately or, if he's staying Horseman, get +Sword rank from Swordmaster via Arms Scroll and double up on Flying Dragon slaying at least for the chapter then Wyrmslayer with Swordmaster. To clarify he has 20 Spd at base as a Swordmaster, so he only needs the Spd shard to double the Ice Dragons, which would probably make him sound rough.

Growth-wise, though, Robert doesn't pull much higher numbers which is the problem. He's probably locked to Swordmaster since Sniper is -4 Spd and that drops him to 16 Spd. So yeah, I'm thinking that Robert can stay Free Silvers for now. Belf might be able to be argued out, but I wouldn't assume Leiden / Belf support due to there being only one Dragonpike and the EXP basically gets cut in half. I'd only train one of them.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Colonel M

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Belf is actually 3 speed points behind Leiden, with 19 spe as Swordmaster at base. He needs a speed proc AND the Speed Shard to double 18 spe Ice Dragons, while Leiden can do it at base.

Anyway, proposed changes:

High:

Arran above Etzel, Merric to high immediately above Etzel.

Mid:

Leiden out of Free Silvers, into mid. Not sure where.

Ryan to top of Mid.

Low:

Maris back to Free Silvers.

[Colonel M]

Belf is actually 3 speed points behind Leiden, with 19 spe as Swordmaster at base. He needs a speed proc AND the Speed Shard to double 18 spe Ice Dragons, while Leiden can do it at base.

Anyway, proposed changes:

High:

Arran above Etzel, Merric to high immediately above Etzel.

Mid:

Leiden out of Free Silvers, into mid. Not sure where.

Ryan to top of Mid.

Low:

Maris back to Free Silvers.

Huh? Unless I read Belf's base Spd wrong I thought he was a point off of Leiden. Maybe I was looking at Robert.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Maybe I was looking at Robert.

Yes, you were. SM!Robert can have 20 speed. Which means I think Robert should get out of free silvers as well and probably put him somewhere near Leiden. Yes, his bases are worse than Leiden's but not by that much, in fact his growths are actually slightly better than Leiden's therefore shortly he can actually start to surpass Leiden. And he doesn't require a seal as he's already promoted.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Joey

[Colonel M]

Yeah I was looking at Robert. Disregard Belf then.

[Don Draper]

SM Robert?

34 HP, 10 Str, 19 Skl, 20 Spd, 12 Lck, 8 Def

Still a rather mediocre unit. Swordmaster Horace has comparable stats (28 HP, 12 Str, 19 Skl, 19 Spd, 7 Lck, 8 Def) and he comes in Chapter 10x. I'm not trying to argue Horace out of Free Silvers, more like Robert should stay there.

EDIT: I agree with the changes SDS

Edited August 16, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Colonel M]

Yeah, I was only arguing Belf because I thought he was -1 Spd on Leiden. After SDS and Joey pointed out I was looking at Robert, I figured we should just keep Leiden out for now.

[grandjackal]

Do note that Raiden's got a base speed of 9 and that most of the guys in mid tier do not reach that at immediately, of which I'm pointing at Cain. Cain's got an excuse. He's got prologue to get something more, he's most likely built up a better sword rank, and his speed growth is stupifying. He probably COULD catch up to Raiden.

Problem being, he has to play catch up. What exactly is Cain doing with his time before Raiden, who practically has off the base use? Now obviously if Cain can scrape something together during the valley, Cain absolutely destroys Raiden in the future.

But, let's look at bases.

Cain: 9 HP, 6 Str, 7 Skl, 4 Spd, 4 Lck, 4 Def

Raiden: 16 HP, 7 Str, 12 Skl, 9 Spd, 10 Lck, 4 Def

Due to Cain's surprisingly low Str growth (Raiden actually beats him in growth by 10%), he needs about 5 levels just as a cav to tie the Str. But let's see the disparity here.

7 HP, 5 Skl, 5 Spd, 6 Lck. 5 levels as a myrm they tie speed and most likely Cain would win Def but not HP, and might not even tie Str. That's as a myrm. He might need more with a slower class like cav.

But notice that it's Cain having to play the catch up game. Granted that when caught up he is vastly superior afterwards, but I don't need to play catch up with Raiden.

Let's see how superior they'd be anyways, since when he's caught up they'd be about the same level.

Cain growths: 50 HP, 25 Str, 45 Skl, 60 Spd, 70 Lck, 20 Def, 10 Res

Raiden: 30 HP, 35 Str, 40 Skl, 40 Spd, 40 Lck, 5 Def, 10 Res

After about 5 levels, Cain still hasn't tied Raiden, though clearly beating him in Def. After their tie though, Cain will become faster, luckier, and have more durability for sure. Problem is this.

A: Raiden as a swordmaster has 70% Spd growth. I doubt he has speed problems.

B: Unless someone can show Cain's durability lead mattering in the future, it doesn't mean much now especially since Cain's not winning it by much currently, if at all, especially if both are going Swordmaster.

C: Raiden's still going to be hitting harder.

D: Raiden has this thing called Lance Rank to fall back on.

So...If he's not aroudn Cain's level, he should be. Perhaps even above him.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Changes implemented. Leiden is above Cain, but Robert wasn't moved.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Cain's got an excuse. He's got prologue to get something more

The problem with that is he only gets one prologue chapter to do so and he's most likely only gaining one level, maybe two in P-8 which wont make a major difference, sadly.

[grandjackal]

Hmmm...

I notice that with some support convos, you get those stat bands that work like those stat potions. I have to wonder.

While the stat potions are random, are these random? For example, the convo between MU and Ryan. They would hit the last support point within 18 chapters. From P-2 to P-8, that means we would get their band at about chapter 12 or 13. Now, is it the same band every time? Because if so, that is a credit point that could be given.

I recall there being a LOT of bands for Luck at the end of my adventure. If you're tossing stat boosters onto someone, saved up Icons could go to Michalis and all these bands could solve whatever luck woes he might have.

[CO_Fimbulvetr]

You can only give someone one of the potions or band thingies at a time.

[grandjackal]

You can only give someone one of the potions or band thingies at a time.

I'm aware, but I'm saying the Icons, then one of those bands every chapter since you would have tons to spare.

[Don Draper]

I'm going to have to agree with Leiden>Cain. Cain is pretty bad on his join chapter (Is ORKO'd by Thieves, Paladins, Snipers) and can only really get kills by finishing off Generals/Armors with Armorslayer (he 3RKOs with it). If we were to assume Level 11 Cain and promote him, he'd probably be best off as a Sniper for Chapter 9. I guess he 2RKOs Dracos that way, although he's ORKO'd back so he can't afford to miss. He 2RKOs Mages/Bishops which is pretty meh. Switching him to SM lets him double Mages at least assuming 11/3. However, he's pretty terrible against the rest of the enemies. He lol 3RKOs Roros in 10x, and his only claim to fame in Chapter 11 is ORKOing Bandits if he's 11/4 and they don't proc HP. I guess he can use Wyrmslayer for a 3RKO against Fire Dragons/Ice Dragons, and lets see how they stack up in Chapter 13x when Leiden has promoted:

19/1 Leiden: 40.8 HP, 14 Str, 25.6 Skl, 24 Spd, 11.6 Lck, 10.8 Def

11/6 Cain: 37.3 HP, 13.55 Str, 22.05 Skl, 22.9 Spd, 9 Lck, 12.05 Def

All that work put towards Cain, and there's little return. Cain doesn't really have many advantages over Leiden and he's been mediocre in a handful of chapters just to get to this point. Growth-wise, Cain has less room to grow and will never win stats that he grows better in like HP for example. Defense will remain his only lead (he'll eventually win speed, but they both cap shortly after).

On another note, leaving Cain unpromoted is a bad idea. If he was still 11/0 going into Chapter 9:

Thieves: Double him with 26 attack against his 28.8 HP and 11.35 Def, so ORKO.

Draco: He gets ORKO'd as an 11/1 Sniper, so he's clearly being ORKO'd unpromoted. Has 11.8+9=20.8 attack against Drao's 11 Def for about a 5RKO.

Mage: 2RKO, 2RKO's

Bishop: See above

In conclusion, I support Leiden above Cain

[grandjackal]

And there we see a problem. Notice that Raiden there has 24 AS, which is enough to double paladins when returning to the mainland. Only problem I see here is that he can't take more than 2 shots.

But, until someone finds some better examples (outside of Minerva who was poined out earlier), he's got the speed that matters, and Cain doesn't.

[fatgamecat]

Hmmm...

I notice that with some support convos, you get those stat bands that work like those stat potions. I have to wonder.

While the stat potions are random, are these random? For example, the convo between MU and Ryan. They would hit the last support point within 18 chapters. From P-2 to P-8, that means we would get their band at about chapter 12 or 13. Now, is it the same band every time? Because if so, that is a credit point that could be given.

The stat bands are the same every time. Apparently a lot of the pegasus knights like to hand out luck bands to MU and each other. There's no list of what each support convo gives (yet).

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Hmm, I can see Ellerean going below Leiden as well, maybe even Free Silvers because quite frankly, if you're a male mage that can't use Excalibur even after promotion that joins right before Chapter 11 where flying dragons start becoming common enemies then you are mostly useless.

[grandjackal]

Well, can he at least survive a Tomohawk Bandit? Cause doing 22 damage with decent crit doesn't sound too bad.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Yes he can but remember, you can also have Merric(If you used him in the prologue he should have C tomes) or Etzel bomb stuff with Thoron and get better results, besides Merric also smokes him in growths. Even though Ellerean has slightly better bases than Merric you have to keep in mind Merric has a whole bunch of availability on Ellerean in the prologue and should probably get about 2-3 levels before the prologue ends meaning by the time him and Ellerean both join Merric should be up to par with him in stats if not, surpassed and will continue to surpass him.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Joey

[grandjackal]

Yes he can but remember, you can also have Merric(If you used him the prologue he should have C tomes) or Etzel bomb stuff with Thoron and get better results, besides Merric also smokes him in growths. Even though Ellerean has slightly better bases than Merric you have to keep in mind Merric has a whole bunch of availability on Ellerean in the prologue and should probably get about 2-3 levels before the prologue ends meaning by the time him and Ellerean both join Merric should be up to par with him in stats if not, surpassed and will continue to surpass him.

I'm sorry, what? After prologue, Maric should have C tomes after prologue? Explain to me how the hell he got into 45 battles in prologue.

Secondly, note that Etzel needs the Capricorn orb to OHKO dragons with Excalibur. Maric starts with 3 less magic base and lacks C tomes without promotion for the extra 1 boost, and unpromoted so he has 2 less magic simply due to class. That's 6 might in the hole as opposed to 4 to a guy who needs the Capricorn orb to pick fliers out of the skies. You could promote him and give him even both shards that give magic (totalling to +3), he still couldn't do it.

That's not to say Elleraen's better, but Maric's got problems just like him, and neither prologue or Ellis in endgame solve it. Prologue doesn't make him Etzel good, and despite having a future unlike Etzel, I feel overfeeding him EXP might hurt in the time between then and when he rejoins since all we get out of it is "Elleraen who hurt our chapter 1-10 performance".

If anything, I feel Etzel's existence hurts Maric more than Elleraen. Etzel's the dude smoking dragons with Excalibur, and while he's doing that he's not countering Tomohawk bandits. Etzel can't be everywhere at once, and Maric has to promote just to do what Elleraen does at base.

Though I suppose the EXP he could get out of 10 and 10x could save Maric regardless, since just getting +1 Mag makes Maric into "Elleraen with a point".

However, I still have to point it out. Is it really that bad to have a cannon that does 22 damage with 13 crit, especially in the desert map? If Elleraen's going to drop, it is only as low as Low tier, because this sure as hell beats the shit out of someone like Samuto.

[Colonel M]

Er, Jackal, my Merric also got C Tomes, and it's actually half about 23 rounds of Combat to get a C Rank. I pretty much burned up my Fire tome quickly.

Secondly, note that Etzel needs the Capricorn orb to OHKO dragons with Excalibur.

Not true. Merric can actually OHKO them at base, needing maybe on eof the +Mag shards at the very worst to assure the OHKO. If anything he needs the Def to survive a hit, but with the shards given to you it isn't difficult.

Let me dig up the picture.

47 total Atk is needed, and Excalibur hands 39. You need 8 Mag, which funny enough is Merric's base, to OHKO them.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Colonel M

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

I'm sorry, what? After prologue, Maric should have C tomes after prologue? Explain to me how the hell he got into 45 battles in prologue.

Secondly, note that Etzel needs the Capricorn orb to OHKO dragons with Excalibur. Maric starts with 3 less magic base and lacks C tomes without promotion for the extra 1 boost, and unpromoted so he has 2 less magic simply due to class. That's 6 might in the hole as opposed to 4 to a guy who needs the Capricorn orb to pick fliers out of the skies. You could promote him and give him even both shards that give magic (totalling to +3), he still couldn't do it.

That's not to say Elleraen's better, but Maric's got problems just like him, and neither prologue or Ellis in endgame solve it. Prologue doesn't make him Etzel good, and despite having a future unlike Etzel, I feel overfeeding him EXP might hurt in the time between then and when he rejoins since all we get out of it is "Elleraen who hurt our chapter 1-10 performance".

If anything, I feel Etzel's existence hurts Maric more than Elleraen. Etzel's the dude smoking dragons with Excalibur, and while he's doing that he's not countering Tomohawk bandits. Etzel can't be everywhere at once, and Maric has to promote just to do what Elleraen does at base.

Though I suppose the EXP he could get out of 10 and 10x could save Maric regardless, since just getting +1 Mag makes Maric into "Elleraen with a point".

However, I still have to point it out. Is it really that bad to have a cannon that does 22 damage with 13 crit, especially in the desert map? If Elleraen's going to drop, it is only as low as Low tier, because this sure as hell beats the shit out of someone like Samuto.

I managed to get Merric a C in tomes by the time prologue ended so it's possible.

Also, in chapter 11, 11 magic will do the trick(Even without a C+ in tomes) against flying dragons and Merric can easily meet that criteria as well, if you have Merric go on flying dragon killing duty he will raise in levels. I got Merric from level 12 to level 16 by the end of chapter 11 which I would say is quite the XP fest for him and cleared the chapter in 18 turns(although I wasted 2 turns doing almost nothing trying to figure out the AI of the flying dragons near the seize point as they wouldn't go in one by one like the previous ones so technically 16, which is a pretty fair turncount even if we stick with the 18). If you can pull off those levels on Merric you can then promote him on the next chapter and he will continue to 1HKO flying dragons with no problem, meaning Etzel can be the one using Thoron and sometimes possibly use Shaver to finish off a flying dragon if needed.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Joey

[grandjackal]

Er, Jackal, my Merric also got C Tomes, and it's actually half about 23 rounds of Combat to get a C Rank. I pretty much burned up my Fire tome quickly.

Not true. Merric can actually OHKO them at base, needing maybe on eof the +Mag shards at the very worst to assure the OHKO. If anything he needs the Def to survive a hit, but with the shards given to you it isn't difficult.

Let me dig up the picture.

47 total Atk is needed, and Excalibur hands 39. You need 8 Mag, which funny enough is Merric's base, to OHKO them.

Then what the hell was this talk about Etzel needing the capricorn orb a few pages back?

[Colonel M]

Then what the hell was this talk about Etzel needing the capricorn orb a few pages back?

The boss needs more Atk to be KOed, which does actually require Capricorn + Etzel IIRC.

EDIT: Just to figure, Leiden might need Speedwing to double as a Sniper in Chapter 15 assuming 2 Spd procs. Which is... kind of scary to think about.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Colonel M