H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Colonel M]

Not sure on where to place Minerva, but I do know that she can go "up".

Mid Tier pretty much assumes that you're coming at a grave cost or have limited utility. Well, she does have some limited utility, but she also has a few perks. First off her weapon ranks are acceptable; C Lances puts her right at the minimum for using the Dragonpike. A Axes is also cool since that gives her Silver Axe / Hauteclere for situations such as the Bandits or the Dark Mages. Hell, it just gives her a more accurate option to slam the Flying Dragons in Chapter 12. With Hauteclere, Energy Drop, Rainbow Potion, and Star Orb shards, Minerva is able to OHKO Dark Mages which only My Unit can replicate (granted without those resources but he wants to venture out of DracoKnight sometime soon). The Speedwings allow her to double Bandits at base with the Rainbow Potion, double the Ice Dragons with Scorpio Shard and Rainbow Potion in Chapter 13, and can at worst participate as a Swordmaster in Chapter 14. She needs to gain 6 Levels to participate as a DracoKnight in Chapter 14, which is pretty difficult to pull off perhaps. She can also OHKO the Thieves here with Hauteclere, but the accuracy is probably too dicey to consider. Even so, Swordmaster!Minerva at Level 8 has 15 Str, which likely requires a small forge onto Wyrmslayer (+2). After that she can use Hammer on Generals which appear in Chapter 15, 16, 18, and 19. OHKOing Mages shouldn't too difficult to pull off either with the Silver Axe and Rainbow Potion, and she can double the Paladins in Chapter 15 with Rainbow Potion and Starsphere.

Anyway to round out the point; Minerva can be a viable combat unit. It comes at some "extreme" costs, but to be fair just about every unit in the game needs a resource somewhere along the line. She probably needs some careful arena use (primarily to hit level ups faster), but I think 6 levels is possible if she took Chapter 12's boss kill for example. Being an innate DracoKnight is pretty helpful since DracoKnight is an awesome class in many chapters. I'm pretty sure she's good over Jeorge who only has limited utility going for him, but to put her above Mid Tier is doubtful.

[dondon151]

I think this tier list needs a lot of minor revisions.

Rody and Cecile need to go up a few tiers. Both are likely not as good as Luke, but Luke isn't all that great either, and on an efficient playthrough, the player is forced to use one of them. At least they're better than the mid tier jokers, i.e., Leiden through Barst.

Next point: Caeda above Luke. Her early and mid game are significantly better than Luke's, as Luke has doubling problems until promotion.

Third: Merric sucks. Probably even in casual play.

[grandjackal]

Rody and Cecile need to go up a few tiers. Both are likely not as good as Luke, but Luke isn't all that great either, and on an efficient playthrough, the player is forced to use one of them. At least they're better than the mid tier jokers, i.e., Leiden through Barst.

I can agree with Cecile, but not with Roddy. Roddy has this problem of having a small sword rank, which is a problem a bit early on when Rainbow Luke on average by chapter 1 can go merc or myrm with a steel sword to ORKO basically anything on the map (I can't remember if he needed a rainbow or not, I just remember he's capable). For Roddy to do the same, he can't really go with swords. He'd need a rainbow, and to go from -1 to 5 base speed, essentially catching up to Draug.

Though maybe you'll surprise me. What is it about Roddy you find so special?

Third: Merric sucks. Probably even in casual play.

I second this motion. If he's screwed even a single point, he's basically no better than Elleraen when it comes to survival, who also blows...Though at least Maric has auto-Excalibur.

[Colonel M]

Steel Lance is "usually" better than Steel Sword in Prologue. I guess I concede Rody can't be a good Myrmidon / Mercenary, but I don't see how this forces Rody to stay in Lower Mid or wherever the bumland he is when he's better than shitheads like Merric.

[dondon151]

I can agree with Cecile, but not with Roddy. Roddy has this problem of having a small sword rank, which is a problem a bit early on when Rainbow Luke on average by chapter 1 can go merc or myrm with a steel sword to ORKO basically anything on the map (I can't remember if he needed a rainbow or not, I just remember he's capable). For Roddy to do the same, he can't really go with swords. He'd need a rainbow, and to go from -1 to 5 base speed, essentially catching up to Draug.

Though maybe you'll surprise me. What is it about Roddy you find so special?

First of all, Rody joins early. That alone puts him above most of the units on this tier list.

Second, using Rody precludes the use of either Luke or Cecile, but in Lunatic, using any unit precludes the use of another unless you're Palla, Sirius, Catria, and probably Caeda, in which case you must be used. This really doesn't count as a point against Rody, then.

Third, having sword rank might be better for earlygame, but having lance rank is better for midgame. Luke and Cecile are in the position where they basically cannot go to any class but sword using classes for almost the entire game. Luke, especially, can't really afford to go out of hero or swordmaster because of his mediocre spd. Cecile can go paladin or falcoknight for midgame, which is better. The one thing they really lose out on is Ridersbane. Rody can reclass to swordmaster for C rank effective swords while Luke and Cecile can't do the same with Ridersbane.

I agree that Rody is probably not as good as Luke or Cecile, but he's in low tier right now. Come on.

Rody also has 0 base spd, not -1.

[Mekkah]

It's Rody, not Roddy.

[Colonel M]

I only have a few maps left, so I think it's safe to comment for the tier list.

First, Catria > Sirius again. Catria's earlygame isn't rocky-to-hell as it could be, and let's face it: she's the prime FalcoKnight you really want. FalcoKnight's Spd cap is easy to drool over with it being able to double more things with the Starsphere or just avoiding being doubled by most enemies (barring two types. w00t!). The high Resistance is also a benefit since it makes her less of a priority against siege tomes which become abundant later in the game. Getting to A Lances can happen sometime before Chapter 20X, and a Gradivus user rocks just because of 2 range versus Flying Dragons in Chapter 21, then the 2 range barrage in 22 and 23. Though her earlygame is a little worse than Sirius's, her midgame is arguably better thanks to safely reaching Speed points (whereas Sirius is a "little" rocky) and lategame Sirius needs a bit of help while Catria holds a unique niche. I wouldn't put Palla as a FalcoKnight since it dumbs down her effectiveness at tanking slightly (-2 Def) and her Speed growth is too shaky to take a gamble on it.

Next, Etzel to Unique Utility. Let's face it, Mages aren't going to attack very often in the game. Etzel does sometimes, so I guess if you're stubborn at not placing him in UU he's fine, but he is able to shave turns simply with Rescue Staff alone AND combine the sexiness with Excalibur. He's just reliable enough to pull off the madness that the game requires. He can't beat Gharnef, but Malliesia can pretty much do it herself; maybe with Chainey's help.

Shiida > Luke. Wing Spear. Wing Spear. It's almost all I need to chant here.

Give Merric the corkscrew downward treatment. I think you should know why this is by now, but his deficiency at staves is too much of a burden. Excalibur is all he can really claim.

Not sure on why Tiki > Nagi. It should be the other way around for sure. Tiki gets almost 0 times to attack and she merely costs a deployment slot in Chapter 22. Nagi comes free and she can decimate a Dragon (nearly) so long as it's chipped (literally Fire Dragons have to take 5 damage). She's likely justified to be fielded in Chapter 23 since Fire Dragons are impossible to double attack.

I think Minerva can safely go above Jeorge here, maybe Ryan too as a I suspected. For what it's worth, her DracoKnight class is pretty solid up until maybe Chapter 23. It sucks that her Str is a bit on the low side, but you could also Energy Drop + Rainbow Potion it to death to have her ORKO Sorcerers lategame with Brave Axe.

Marth to Unique Utility. No reason to have a Lord in the tier list with the Unique Utility Tier in existence.

Frey, Leiden, Roger, and Ellerean to Free Silvers with Navarre and Barst dropping. Barst might stand a chance at existing with Rainbow Potion and the Arms Scroll from the shop early on, but that denies us of a possible Steel Bow forge (which I confess is nice to have early on).

Rody up, as pointed out.

Athena > Bord. How did Bord get over Athena anyway?

Wendell up slightly. He can do a few things with that ridiculous Speed base. Not a lot, but it's not like Jeorge is a miracle bringer either and look how high he is (note: don't levy him too low since Jeorge can OHKO DracoKnights in Chapter 18).

Cecil can probably go up wherever Rody goes. I wouldn't assume she goes FalcoKnight since I found Catria wielding Armorslayer rather useless in the end of it all. The amount of times Catria used Armorslayer was the same number of times Sirius picked up a staff.

That's probably all I can think of. Unless you want to send Sirius to High, but that's about all that I can think of off hand. He needs a lot of help in some instances. Like, I'd almost glue him to the arena for non-starters since his EXP gain is kind of paltry. I'd also think about the cost of the Speedwing in general since Palla does admittedly put it to good use earlier.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

Cecil can probably go up wherever Rody goes. I wouldn't assume she goes FalcoKnight since I found Catria wielding Armorslayer rather useless in the end of it all. The amount of times Catria used Armorslayer was the same number of times Sirius picked up a staff.

Just going to point out here that Cecile is kind of bad as anything but a paladin or FK.

[Colonel M]

Just going to point out here that Cecile is kind of bad as anything but a paladin or FK.

I guess she can ride with Paladin, but I think you'd have to fight on her getting FalcoKnight. I'll leave her up to SDS and you since I refuse to touch Cecil with a 30 foot Poleax.

[Colonel M]

Okay, I was going to post this in my conclusion, but I think this needs to be brought to attention. This has a weird summary of Rescue / Again.

[spoiler=Hidden for the weak]Okay, so there's a weird issue. Seems like mjemerzian's Final relies on either a trained Minerva AND Sirius OR rigging misses. Since we want to avoid this as much as possible, we need to seriously evaluate Rescue / Again Staff uses. Hence why I considered doing a second play through in attempts to get closer to dondon151's turncounts.

Chapter 4 Needs 1. No question really.

Chapter 6 Can use one for the 6 Turn. mj's 7 turn kind of puts Sirius in a position that isn't to his fitting and puts a lot of stress on Arran if he doesn't proc Spd or Rainbow Potion isn't assumed on him.

Chapter 6x Needs 1.

Chapter 7 is where I question using Rescue in. 2 Rescue uses are used, and for what? Notice there's a Master Seal and Wo Dao. Even if both of these are missed, is it worth it? At the worst we can collect Chapter 5's at the cost of one Rescue use OR none if we early seal My Unit.

Chapter 8 requires 1 for Bantu. Pity that play throughs assume recruiting all characters. Bantu is definitely one that can be tossed aside.

Chapter 9 needs one for Marth to get to the throne.

Chapter 11 requires 2 for dondon151's strategy, though his 5 turn hinges with the Steel Bow forge. I can at least say the 2 Rescue uses here... might be justified.

Chapter 12 and Chapter 13 saves 2 turns each if a Rescue Staff is used.

Chapter 14 the 6 Turn requires 1 Rescue Staff use. This chapter is likely justified.

Chapter 15 will require 1 Again Staff use and POSSIBLY 1 Rescue use if Feena didn't get the Seraph Robe. Which presents a few dicey situations...

Chapter 16 requires 1 Rescue use.

Chapter 17 requires 1 Rescue use, and using an Again Staff use does help save maybe a Turn or two tops.

Chapter 18 requires 1 Rescue use. No questions asked.

Chapter 19, assuming we're getting the WolfGuard, requires 2 Rescue uses TO MY KNOWLEDGE. It also requires 1 Again Staff use to prevent the DracoKnight splurge.

Chapter 20 requires 1 Rescue use for Midia. Another one of those "wastes".

Chapter 21 requires 1 Rescue use for Marth.

Chapter 22, assuming the Horseman strat, requires 1 Rescue and 1 Again use.

Final is where everything gets sloppy.

So counting all of what dondon used (minus one from Chapter 4) and adding what I used, this equates to ~24 Rescue uses, which goes 2 above what Rescue uses you have. This means that the 2 Rescue uses in Chapter 7 should be excluded unless it is necessary. The player could gain +2 Rescue uses from not using it in Chapter 12 and 13, could gain 1 from 15 if Feena gets a Seraph Robe and can survive the Ballistician, 2 from skipping Bantu and Midia, etc. You also have 1 Again use to spare. The problem is that Rescue has wonky amount of uses each time. It would need a repair in Chapter 9, a repair in Chapter 13, one in 16X-17. Nothing huge. To be fair there is 1 Again Staff use to spare as well and Final CAN be completed with 2 Again / 2 Rescue.

Just thought I'd note this. I'm a little iffy when Rescue-skipping, if we call it that, some of those chapters (11-14 especially since the EXP gains are sky high from them), but *shrugs*. I just thought it was something to bring up.

Also Shiida > Luke 4 evah.

Edited May 14, 2011 by _M_

[Paperblade]

I dunno about you, but I used the Rescue to save Feena. The 50th Master Seal and some random not-Master Sword crit weapon? Don't really care. Although I guess then you could just use one.

Edit: Actually it may be possible to save Feena without any Rescue use? Would have to check but it would likely require resetting for Navarre critz

Edited May 14, 2011 by Paperblade

[dondon151]

IIRC it should be possible to save Feena without using Rescue on her, but using no Rescue at all in chapter 7 forces you to skip out on a lot of items.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Changes made:

Shiida > Luke - Shiida's incredible speed and access to Wing Spear, which is great all game,

Arran to top of Mid - He's clutch early and then falls off a cliff.

Linde to Top of Upper Mid - Aura is incredible earlygame, Resire makes her great at tanking things that nobody else can handle, her low Defense makes it easy to exploit the AI, and she's basically the only mage that can be usable throughout the entire game. All she costs is a single Lunatic Seraph Robe.

Marth and Etzel to Unique Utility - You HAVE to train Marth to win the game at all, and Etzel is basically a staffbot with Excalibur every once in a while.

Minerva, Rody, and Cecil to High. Rody and Cecil way up. Rody is very usable when you consider the Rainbow Potion, and Cecil has a period where she's your best mounted sword user. Minerva has access to Hauteclere to OHKO Mages, something very few units can do, and her growths are plenty usable.

Darros out of Free Silvers, moved above Leiden. Give him Rainbow Potion, Leo Shard, and Cancer Shard, and he's 3HKOed by Ice Dragons and ORKOs them in return with an unforged Wyrmslayer. If your Wyrmslayer is +1, you don't even need the Leo Shard. A Speedwing (maybe the Ch16 one or one bought from the Lunatic Shop) can extend his life further, and while he's not amazing, he's usable.

Belf out of Free Silvers, moved immediately above Leiden but below Darros. Similar to Darros, except with better growths but 2 less Def and no amazing axe rank. Possibly has more "future" than Darros, but Darros' near-immediate access to Silver Axe as a Hero makes him more appealing. Better Sword rank, though, so he could potentially maaaaaaaybe be close to C Swords as a Hero in Chapter 14. Darros definitely has him beat in durability though, as 30% growth and a 7 base definitely beats 10% growth and a 5 base.

Mid split into Upper and Lower Mid. Upper is for characters that have a niche right out of the gate, while Lower Mid is more for characters that start off shaky but can "catch up" given time.

Tiki down a lot. She costs turns for no real ability to be used, since she shows up right as Dragons stop being an issue.

There's more to be done, but largely with the scrubs.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Mekkah]

Linde to bottom of High - Aura is incredible earlygame, Resire makes her great at tanking things that nobody else can handle, her low Defense makes it easy to exploit the AI, and she's basically the only mage that can be usable throughout the entire game. All she costs is a single Lunatic Seraph Robe.

Didn't dondon already explain to you why Upper Mid is better for her?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

You're absolutely right, and I actually put her there. I was making notes on "why people went where" and forgot to update it when I changed that.

Fixed.

[dondon151]

Didn't we agree on moving Athena into Free Silvers if we ignore the prologue in this list?

[Colonel M]

Wendell should probably be over Tiki too. Not many instances where Tiki does better than Wendell, if at all.

[grandjackal]

I agree with most of this. However, I still hate Rody with a burning passion.

What do you mean by "rest of the scrubs" though? Cause FE12 has infinity scrubs.

[Colonel M]

If it makes you feel better I don't really approve of Cecil but I'm not going to argue about it.

Are you sure on Belf > Leiden? That seems a little awkward with Belf's 3 Spd deficit that never closes.

Edited May 27, 2011 by _M_

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Are you sure on Belf > Leiden? That seems a little awkward with Belf's 3 Spd deficit that never closes.

Let's face it, neither of them is really going to be doubling after the Valley, so at least Belf has more Def and Str. Leiden's STR isn't super stable as-is.

[Dark Sage]

Shouldn't Ellerean move out of Free Silvers tier? He just needs an Arms Scroll or an early Master Seal to get B in tomes and he can use Excalibur. His bases are enough to OHKO the Flying Dragons in the desert map too IIRC.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Dark Sage

[dondon151]

Early Master Seal doesn't give Elleren enough WEXP to go from C to B. He most definitely needs the Arms Scroll.

Comparing to Merric isn't that great. Merric is a scrub and is mostly only as high as he is due to prologue utility. Elleren has a more severe problem of having a low enough luk base that anything has a significant chance of killing him outright.

[Bluedoom]

Suggestions:

Perhaps move Ogma just below Cain? He has prologue utility, has similar growth's to Navarre's, comes much earlier than Navarre, so he'll have a level lead on Navarre, Roger and Frey(assuming oyu use him). He'll probably have B swords by then. Base stats are very similar to Navarre's. Will benefit from Myrmidon reclass.

Also wrt Ogma VS Cain, I'd say this:

Ogma has chapter lead over Cain. He contributes in one extra prologue chapter, and then comes much earlier than Cain. What Cain has over him is... basically nothing, PERHAPS a better prologue, but they both do about the same in P-8(very useful indeed, those two). He can also insta-promote via master seal if he got a lvl up in P-8. But if you've used Ogma, he'd probably be in the same situation as well.

Also, Bord possibly move up to Lower Mid? Pirate!Bord can do pretty well in 3x with all those armorknights, has some speed to not get doubled in Ch 4( althoguh he has REALLY bad HP at this stage. Perhaps a seraph robe could fix that, I've personally never seen the rainbow potion in effect. Does it boost HP too?) You'd probably wanna give him a RP and a forged hammer for 3x though.

Pirate Bord also has superior spd growth rate compared to Fighter! Barst, which is actually pretty decent. Barst also has to either wait for that ch.8 arms scroll, or struggle to get WEXP and kills for hammer access. I'd rather see Barst drop down- He's too hard to train when you get him, is stuck in the inferior Fighter class on his joining chapter, suffers from a bad weapon rank, and is not extraordinarily superior to Bord in terms of growths. If anything, the one thing he has over Bord is + 5 base spd( which, unfortunately, doesn't let him have a doubling advantage, unfortunately, at least for his first couple of chapters, unless we give him rainbow potion.)

I'll probably do a stat comparison soon though.

[Dark Sage]

Why the hell is Wendell in the bottom of Low below Bord of all people? Wendell at the start has 8 magic and access to Excalibur, allowing him to function like Etzel and Merric in the desert but Wendell joins in Chapter 7 and has D in staves. This doesn't sound impressive, but thanks to Wendell's jointime, he can possibly achieve a B in staves by the time Again becomes available (if not as a Sage then as a Bishop). His lategame combat is....unimpressive to say the least but I don't see how someone like Katarina (who joins in 16x and has a C in staves while Wendell has had more utility and a potentially higher staff rank up to this point) can get away with being in Unique Utility, while the pope has to slum it in Low (not that I'm arguing Katarina should drop of course).

On another note, if Prologue isn't being considered IIRC, then Merric should drop, and Athena should go into Free Silvers.

Finally merge the "I'm In FE12, what is this?" tier with Free Silvers.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Dark Sage

[Bluedoom]

Why the hell is Wendell in the bottom of Low below Bord of all people? Wendell at the start has 8 magic and access to Excalibur, allowing him to function like Etzel and Merric in the desert but Wendell joins in Chapter 7 and has D in staves. This doesn't sound impressive, but thanks to Wendell's jointime, he can possibly achieve a B in staves by the time Again becomes available (if not as a Sage then as a Bishop). His lategame combat is....unimpressive to say the least but I don't see how someone like Katarina (who joins in 16x and has a C in staves while Wendell has had more utility and a potentially higher staff rank up to this point) can get away with being in Unique Utility, while the pope has to slum it in Low (not that I'm arguing Katarina should drop of course).

I second moving Wendell to unique utility. He's just Etzel but slightly worse bases and growths.