H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Colonel M]

Archers kind of teeter in use from time to time. It's a damn shame that, even after Rainbow Potion, Jeorge gets doubled by Flying Dragons. Obviously Parthia exists, but I'm talking about weakening them for Marth.

Also Caeda & Catria > Sirius and follow consistency with Wendell and staffwhores.

[PKL]

Why is Darros so high? o_O Doesnt he get doubled forever? or is there something I missed? Is it only because of his good axe rank?

[Dark Sage]

He can go Swordmaster for Wyrmslayer and with a shard or two, he can get 3HKO'd by Ice Dragons, so he has some short term use.

And when is SDS going to raise Wendell up to Unique Utility?

Edited June 10, 2012 by Dark Sage

[PKL]

He can go Swordmaster for Wyrmslayer and with a shard or two, he can get 3HKO'd by Ice Dragons, so he has some short term use.

And when is SDS going to raise Wendell up to Unique Utility?

Ah, I see. And yeah, Wendell should be in Unique Utility. Might as well make all the staffbots be in Unique Utility. Even though I think a unique utility tier is lazy as fuck anyway. Also, needs more Catria and Caeda over Sirius.

[Vorena]

Lena, Maria,Nyna, and Elice in unique utility just bothers me to no end. They are garbage and should be labeled as such.

[eclipse]

They don't take a slot, and one-shot Fortify/Physic ain't a bad thing. Maria's kinda hopeless, though.

[Anouleth]

Why is Darros so high? o_O Doesnt he get doubled forever? or is there something I missed? Is it only because of his good axe rank?

slowplay meaty chip mainland optimisation valley

[Thor Odinson]

wrt endgame bishops: The lower rank ones can use Rescue to draw in the recruiters and the higher rank ones can use Again to aid in a low-turn clear of the final chapter. That's more than what Free Silvers can say.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Colonel M]

wrt endgame bishops: The lower rank ones can use Rescue to draw in the recruiters and the higher rank ones can use Again to aid in a low-turn clear of the final chapter. That's more than what Free Silvers can say.

Hey meow Mac opens a door!

Also re-echoing for SDS to fix the tier list.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Colonel M

[PKL]

Im tempted to copypaste the tier list and update it, as well as tier the unique utility characters

[Seven Deadly Sins]

1: that's dumb and you're dumb =(

2: tiering unique utility units is a can of worms you don't want to get into, trust me

Anyway, changes made except for Shiida > Sirius. I remain unconvinced that the Strength gap is bridged that effectively. Additionally, Shiida has a couple issues that aren't exactly addressed:

1: Durability. She's almost guaranteed being OHKOed by common enemies around join time without the Rainbow Potion, and even with it, she's so damaged that unlike other units, she can't really effectively rejoin combat after taking a hit until being healed for about 2 turns, something that never really goes away for her. She has to be Level 14 on average to survive a hit from a Fire/Ice Dragon in Ch12-13, and level 19 for the Ch14 ones, and that's assuming that living with 1HP is an option, which it rarely is because units being at full HP is hard to maintain in this game.

2: Offense. While she does have the boon of Wing Spear, this isn't as significant as you might think, especially considering how far off of Silver usage she is. This gets highlighted when we start to fight Dragons. Fire Dragons in Chapter 12 take 37-38 might to 2HKO, and Chapter 13 Ice Dragons jack that up to 40. Assuming 28 Mt base due to Dragonpike and C/B Lances, that's 9-10 Strength in Chapter 12, 12 in Chapter 13, and 13-14 in Chapter 14, just to 2HKO standard enemies. Orbs and Rainbow Potion bridge the gap, but this is still stuff that is contested. And this is with an eff mt weapon, too. When she's not packing effectiveness, she's looking at a bleak 9 wmt as her cap (Steel Lance) due to her base D lances, and that doesn't cut it with Strength as bad as hers.

3: Competition for the whip. There's only one early-mid whip (C11), and whoever doesn't get it is pretty much fucked. With the exception of Wing Spear, Shiida brings nothing to the table that Catria doesn't, and during the time between your first and second Whips, the Wing Spear is utterly useless. Both Shiida and Catria need to be promoted in order to double dragons without Scorpio, and Catria utterly dominates her there. Additionally, Ridersbane / Armorslayer exist, both of which are available to Catria, and both of which replicate the utility of the Wing Spear but on a character with better stats. Considering the fact that Shiida is probably getting the short end of the stick all the way until Chapter 16 where your second whip shows up, I just feel that it's too much of a hurdle to cross.

If there's anything I missed, feel free to bring it up.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Dark Sage]

Ignoring the cries to raise the pope up to Unique Utility I see.

[Colonel M]

Why the flying fuck would you give the whip to Caeda. Did you even bother to read my post?

[dondon151]

i see you're still refusing to yield on the wendell matter. what a stubborn ass.

1: Durability. She's almost guaranteed being OHKOed by common enemies around join time without the Rainbow Potion, and even with it, she's so damaged that unlike other units, she can't really effectively rejoin combat after taking a hit until being healed for about 2 turns, something that never really goes away for her. She has to be Level 14 on average to survive a hit from a Fire/Ice Dragon in Ch12-13, and level 19 for the Ch14 ones, and that's assuming that living with 1HP is an option, which it rarely is because units being at full HP is hard to maintain in this game.

this has never been a problem for me, RP or not

are you suggesting that caeda is not going to be 14/0 by chapter 12? she's supposed to be 14/0 by chapter 11 at the latest. heck, if you haven't promoted her by chapter 11, then you're doing something wrong.

caeda's durability is not even that much worse than catria's. it takes them both until 16/0 for catria to even develop a 1 point lead on average in def, and catria only wins by ~3 HP.

2: Offense. While she does have the boon of Wing Spear, this isn't as significant as you might think, especially considering how far off of Silver usage she is. This gets highlighted when we start to fight Dragons. Fire Dragons in Chapter 12 take 37-38 might to 2HKO, and Chapter 13 Ice Dragons jack that up to 40. Assuming 28 Mt base due to Dragonpike and C/B Lances, that's 9-10 Strength in Chapter 12, 12 in Chapter 13, and 13-14 in Chapter 14, just to 2HKO standard enemies. Orbs and Rainbow Potion bridge the gap, but this is still stuff that is contested. And this is with an eff mt weapon, too. When she's not packing effectiveness, she's looking at a bleak 9 wmt as her cap (Steel Lance) due to her base D lances, and that doesn't cut it with Strength as bad as hers.

your argument reeks of disingenuous sandbagging

first, caeda isn't limited to D lances for a long time because she's had like, what, 5 chapters in prologue of being one of your most valuable units?

second, what's so special about C lances early on? absolutely nothing. you don't get killer lances until frey shows up, wing spear is a better ridersbane, and dragonpikes aren't useful until chapter 11 at the earliest.

third, caeda only needs 75 lance WEXP on her base in order to reach B lances by promotion. that's not very difficult at all. she doesn't really even need silver lances by promotion because dragonpikes are so much better during that section of the game.

next, i'm hoping you realize that caeda has 13 str as a 14/1 dracoknight, which is what she should be in chapter 11. she easily 2HKOs every single dragon in existence. keep in mind that in practice, caeda's str average is ever so slightly higher because she prefers cavalier to pegasus knight when unpromoted.

finally, stat boosters. caeda is somewhere between candidates #1 and #2 for one of the energy drops that you get in the game (this is not even counting the base stat boosters). i don't see you complaining about linde getting several kilo-mias of favoritism.

3: Competition for the whip. There's only one early-mid whip (C11), and whoever doesn't get it is pretty much fucked. With the exception of Wing Spear, Shiida brings nothing to the table that Catria doesn't, and during the time between your first and second Whips, the Wing Spear is utterly useless. Both Shiida and Catria need to be promoted in order to double dragons without Scorpio, and Catria utterly dominates her there. Additionally, Ridersbane / Armorslayer exist, both of which are available to Catria, and both of which replicate the utility of the Wing Spear but on a character with better stats. Considering the fact that Shiida is probably getting the short end of the stick all the way until Chapter 16 where your second whip shows up, I just feel that it's too much of a hurdle to cross.

then if caeda doesn't get the whip, just promote her normally instead? what are you saying here?

"caeda is not catria?" you only have like, 4-5 combat unit outside of caeda. who the fuck cares? catria can use armorslayer? no she can't! not unless she reclasses to SM, in which case she loses a bunch of str, some movement, and generally faces WTD against generals (so another -2 atk on top of that).

Edited June 11, 2012 by dondon151

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Before you guys get all butthurt, I'd like to make full disclosure that I actually did update the tier list, but when I go to the first post, I see this.

"This post has been edited by Seven Deadly Sins: 27 May 2011 - 03:40 AM"

So yeah. I suggest you think a little before getting up in arms?

Anyway, I'll address your posts in a bit, but I'd like to at least request that you guys tone down the vitriol. Let's stay friendly here, guys.

[Vorena]

i see you're still refusing to yield on the wendell matter. what a stubborn ass.

this has never been a problem for me, RP or not

are you suggesting that caeda is not going to be 14/0 by chapter 12? she's supposed to be 14/0 by chapter 11 at the latest. heck, if you haven't promoted her by chapter 11, then you're doing something wrong.

caeda's durability is not even that much worse than catria's. it takes them both until 16/0 for catria to even develop a 1 point lead on average in def, and catria only wins by ~3 HP.

your argument reeks of disingenuous sandbagging

first, caeda isn't limited to D lances for a long time because she's had like, what, 5 chapters in prologue of being one of your most valuable units?

second, what's so special about C lances early on? absolutely nothing. you don't get killer lances until frey shows up, wing spear is a better ridersbane, and dragonpikes aren't useful until chapter 11 at the earliest.

third, caeda only needs 75 lance WEXP on her base in order to reach B lances by promotion. that's not very difficult at all. she doesn't really even need silver lances by promotion because dragonpikes are so much better during that section of the game.

next, i'm hoping you realize that caeda has 13 str as a 14/1 dracoknight, which is what she should be in chapter 11. she easily 2HKOs every single dragon in existence. keep in mind that in practice, caeda's str average is ever so slightly higher because she prefers cavalier to pegasus knight when unpromoted.

finally, stat boosters. caeda is somewhere between candidates #1 and #2 for one of the energy drops that you get in the game (this is not even counting the base stat boosters). i don't see you complaining about linde getting several kilo-mias of favoritism.

then if caeda doesn't get the whip, just promote her normally instead? what are you saying here?

"caeda is not catria?" you only have like, 4-5 combat unit outside of caeda. who the fuck cares? catria can use armorslayer? no she can't! not unless she reclasses to SM, in which case she loses a bunch of str, some movement, and generally faces WTD against generals (so another -2 atk on top of that).

It's funny if you remove these few statements, the post seems less hostile. But with them, the post suddenly becomes a kindle for a flame fest. But, it would be nice to see the utility tier taken down and attempt to tier them normally. There are a ton of units which are bad in this and do not necessairly have to fit into any order, but simply their own tier above or below the other worthless or priceless bunch of units.

[PKL]

I think Midia should drop to a new tier below Free Silvers. She doesnt even have any equipment lol and will probably even require a rescue charge to stay alive. Worst character ever.

[grandjackal]

I'm not gonna touch this Caeda issue due to the fact that I am extremely biased against her and hate her with the passion of a thousand burning suns.

However, Draug has been a thought. Namely that he is between Luke and Rody. I would like to think he is above or below both. Reason being that for the prologue you could basically replace Luke with Rody and get the same results (kinda, but not big enough differences to be notable outside of maybe prologue 8). One could say that Rody has the opportunity cost of Luke, and thus why Draug is above him, but they're nearly so equal that I would say the cost is fine. Could say Draug is Rody without the training, but Draug was also not there/sucking in prologue.

[Dark Sage]

What is your projected level for Rody and Draug to be at by Chapter 1 though? Rody does have worse bases than Luke, and though they're by like, a point each, it can still make a difference.

[grandjackal]

What is your projected level for Rody and Draug to be at by Chapter 1 though? Rody does have worse bases than Luke, and though they're by like, a point each, it can still make a difference.

Well I have had Rody on generally the same level I could get Luke to by the end of prologue, so take whatever the expected of Luke is and match it. I recall his speed being an average of 10, and though I was dumb enough to go and give him a wing, instead you could just have him go Pirate.

True that Rody has worse bases, but neither of them are statistically so different that Luke just flat performs better. Take example the speed I just gave you. In fact, lemme do a comparison.

Level 7 Rody: 24.8 HP, 9 Strength, 8.6 Skill, 9.9 Speed, 9.2 Luck, 8.4 Def

Level 7 Luke: 25.4 HP, 10.6 Strength, 8 Skill, 10 Speed, 6.4 Luck, 9.4 Def

Luke has more muscle, but Rody has a stronger weapon due to rank giving him Steel Lances. What seperates them is basically 1 Def and 3 luck. For prologue 8, the only major difference is that Luke's luck is borderline since many enemies have 6 crit here. Otherwise it's basically Rody deals with Thieves better while Luke has Bandits. Prior to this, neither are statistically strong enough to be a unit that makes a significant difference like MU or Caeda or Athena. Their statistical difference don't make an ounce of significant difference.

From there it's basically Luke has better chapter 1 and 4 since he has actual evasion towards axe users and better movement, while Rody has less movement as a Pirate but is better towards the more common lancers. Midgame, Lance rnk gives him stuff like Dragon Pikes for the whole dragons bit, while Luke...Needs to be something else unless given a Weapon Scroll. Then vice versa for when you basically have to be a sword class way later into the game near the end.

I will grant you though that it has been a long time. I most likely may have missed developments so I might be off on my levels. But at a glance, it's not as different as it seems.

Oh right, forgot. Comparison between them and Draug, since he is the point of my argument. He is a base level cav for chapter 1, since he's useless prior, so...

22 HP, 9 Strength, 5 Skill, 11 Speed, 3 Luck, 7 Def

Weaker than both. Less durable than both. By the time P8 is done, probably none faster. Luck so bad it actually matters. Universally worse weapon ranks. Less accuracy. No investment, but he is universally worse than both.

[Vorena]

Assuming Cain's route. Draug has 2 chapters for experience.

lv 6, hp 22, str 10, 5 skl, 5 spd, 11 def, 0 res Lance D

The Myrmidons will double and deal 14 damage to Draug. The cavaliers might double him depending upon their speed and will KO him for certain. Archers will leave him almost for dead if they attack him. And the pegasus knights will almost for certain attack and nearly kill him. And nearly everything on Pr-8 will kill him in one round as well. The best hope for using him would be to get one point in speed somehow, but that involves actually letting him get a few KOs since he'll nearly die to everything for being so slow.

So, Draug is looking at coming out of Prologue at base level.

I'd say Rody could get out of prologue at level 3? Lv 4, Hp 22.4, 7.5 str, 6.8 skl, 7.95 spd, 6.8 lck, 7.2 def, 0 res

Draug at base as a cav. would be lv 6, 22 hp, 9 str, 5 skl, 11 spd, 7 def, 0 res. And he would have slightly less weapon experience than Rody would have.

As for growths, Cav!Rody is beating Cav!Draug by 20% in hp, 10% in str, 5% in skl, 5% in spd, 20% in lck, and def and resistance are the same.

Having that higher speed will help since reclassing to Mercenary allows Draug to start doubling those enemies right out of prologue, and he requires absolutely no work at all for being base level. He only misses out on possible weapon experience.

Edit: Well, if you had lv7 rody out of prologue, then it all comes down to how much usage you give them in prologue. Either way, he has the same or better combat than them with only less durability. Which does not matter a whole lot coming out of prologue since rody and draug are 2HKO by the bandits and 3HKO by the theifs. In the end, rody has growths going for him in the long run rather than draug. So, with access to prologue Rody can be better than draug and growths in his favor. I guess I got convinced for rody over draug.

Edited June 13, 2012 by ....

[grandjackal]

I'd say Rody could get out of prologue at level 3? Lv 4

For real, level 4 is the highest estimate? If that's the case, why is it that either of them are in high? I got the edit, but seriously, 4?

[PKL]

Draug has pretty nice bases and the same weapon ranks as rody, barring wexp gained by rody in prologue (which should not be that much). Rody wins growths and availability but needs babying to even get to tie/beat draug's bases. And then theres the issue that training rody takes exp from the great luuuuuuke...Id say the advantage is draug's.

[Paperblade]

4 seems a tad low. Most units in the prologue are not good for long term use, and thieves in P-8 (and P-5) are worth 50 exp a pop. Sure Luke/Rody are not the powerhouse that most MUs, Caeda, and Athena are but...

Edited June 13, 2012 by Paperblade

[grandjackal]

Draug has pretty nice bases and the same weapon ranks as rody, barring wexp gained by rody in prologue (which should not be that much). Rody wins growths and availability but needs babying to even get to tie/beat draug's bases. And then theres the issue that training rody takes exp from the great luuuuuuke...Id say the advantage is draug's.

1. Well of course Rody loses if you sandbag him. Little Wexp? You can't say "He sucks because I didn't actually use him", because no shit. Could say the same about the great and mighty Luke. Luke isn't perfect himself ya know.

2. How is Luke in any better a situation than Rody? Both have worse bases than Draug. Should we both just assume that they're both worse just because Draug shows up and is a rent-a-cavalier? I just showed that both can be universally better while being damn near identical.

Edited June 13, 2012 by grandjackal