H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[PKL]

I propose that Palla have her own tier. "God with wings". I dont feel like Catria and Sirius are nearly as good as her. Also, I still stand by caeda>sirius.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Professor PicKLe

[charlie_]

*goddess

[Espinosa]

Has dondon or anybody attempted Lunatic with 0% growths? It'd be interesting to see the Free Silvers tier turn into your active endgame team.

[PKL]

Has dondon or anybody attempted Lunatic with 0% growths? It'd be interesting to see the Free Silvers tier turn into your active endgame team.

I think he said that he thought it was possible somewhere, but he wasnt bothered to do it. I dont know where he said it, but I recall seeing something along those lines. I think that with all the statboosters this game throws at you, it would be possible. Although marth would need a huge amount of energy drops + wings in final alone...that leaves like, 1 wing and drop for the other characters >_>.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Professor PicKLe

[Vorena]

I doubt you could ever get far enough to use the first free silver on 0% growths.

[PKL]

I doubt you could ever get far enough to use the first free silver on 0% growths.

IMO, it is possible. Rainbow Pot, forges, statboosters all exist to help + promotion bonuses. And there's...palla the godess with wings.

[Espinosa]

This is what Palla looks like as a 10/1 Dracoknight with RP:

28 HP, 16 Str, 18 Spd, 16 Def, 5 Res

Not too bad, but this is Lunatic we're talking about.

[Vorena]

4 seraph robes to hit 56 hp. But 4 speedwings to naturally cap all her reclass options without rainbow potion. She'll have 11 str as a swordmaster without rainbow potion. And would need +7 energy drops to reach her strength cap without rainbow potion. And you can only get a max of 8 or 9. I guess you could get through the game playing with only a single unit, but endgame is going to be a nightmare to finsih.

[Paperblade]

I think he said that he thought it was possible somewhere, but he wasnt bothered to do it. I dont know where he said it, but I recall seeing something along those lines. I think that with all the statboosters this game throws at you, it would be possible. Although marth would need a huge amount of energy drops + wings in final alone...that leaves like, 1 wing and drop for the other characters >_>.

He said it might be possible if you had 10x as much gold as you do

Edit: Also Palla has real disadvantages compared to Catria, the most obvious being that her Speed growth is seriously fucking awful so she is locked to certain classes (basically PK/Myrm line and maybe Sniper if you're into that sort of thing) or has to be forcefed even more Speedwings to keep up late game. Catria also has much better Luck which is relevant vs. a lot of mid-late game enemies (such as Ice Dragons) meaning she faces 0 Crit while Palla faces non-0. For example, this means Catria can go Cavalier in chapters and use the Lady Sword.

Catria also has a better support list (Palla is one of the few units that does not receive a support from Marth, for example) which is somewhat relevant since it's quite possible to reduce enemy hit rates to low numbers if you stack enough of them. This remains even relevant late game since siege tomes and dragon breaths never get forged so their hit caps out around 120-125, which means that a Swordmaster with 30 Spd/20 Luck (not out of the question for Catria) and 3 supports (Marth/MU/Palla/Minerva, pick 3) would be reducing those to ~40-45 display.

Basically in the mid-late game unless your Catria was somehow really terrible early game and never got EXP (which isn't likely since she's still better than everyone but Palla/Sirius/some MUs), she's going to surpass Palla and Sirius at some point.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Paperblade

[PKL]

He said it might be possible if you had 10x as much gold as you do

Edit: Also Palla has real disadvantages compared to Catria, the most obvious being that her Speed growth is seriously fucking awful so she is locked to certain classes (basically PK/Myrm line and maybe Sniper if you're into that sort of thing) or has to be forcefed even more Speedwings to keep up late game. Catria also has much better Luck which is relevant vs. a lot of mid-late game enemies (such as Ice Dragons) meaning she faces 0 Crit while Palla faces non-0. For example, this means Catria can go Cavalier in chapters and use the Lady Sword.

Catria also has a better support list (Palla is one of the few units that does not receive a support from Marth, for example) which is somewhat relevant since it's quite possible to reduce enemy hit rates to low numbers if you stack enough of them. This remains even relevant late game since siege tomes and dragon breaths never get forged so their hit caps out around 120-125, which means that a Swordmaster with 30 Spd/20 Luck (not out of the question for Catria) and 3 supports (Marth/MU/Palla/Minerva, pick 3) would be reducing those to ~40-45 display.

Basically in the mid-late game unless your Catria was somehow really terrible early game and never got EXP (which isn't likely since she's still better than everyone but Palla/Sirius/some MUs), she's going to surpass Palla and Sirius at some point.

Ah, I see.

[grandjackal]

Edit: Also Palla has real disadvantages compared to Catria, the most obvious being that her Speed growth is seriously fucking awful so she is locked to certain classes (basically PK/Myrm line and maybe Sniper if you're into that sort of thing) or has to be forcefed even more Speedwings to keep up late game.

I agree with basically everything but this point, since the game actually gives us more wings than we know what to do with, and her speed s only relevent later like in the desert where we get a free wing, and have stuff like the Scorpio orb. Likewise, Catria's strength does not start so hot, and could be said she would appreciate a Drop.

I think neither should be a problem, since their issues are only reasonably small, and they are good.

Otherwise, I agree.

[Paperblade]

those wings belong to Linde

[grandjackal]

Really? And here I was thinking they belonged to Ryan.

[eclipse]

Really? And here I was thinking they belonged to Ryan.

I think Paper was being sarcastic. ;/

I'd rather give those Wings to Caeda, anyway. ;/

[grandjackal]

Yes, because he was so obviously not joking.

Anyways, I don't think people disagree on these points?

[PKL]

Linde is awful. What exactly is she doing over a trained ryan? Meaty chip for 3 chapters? and "nosferatanking" with a seraph robe? I fail to see how she can nosferatank even with a robe, with her pitiful magic base and no doubling. She can take, at best, one enemy in EP and do pitiful damage to it all for the cost of 2500G.

[dondon151]

you're not supposed to let her do it until she promotes

granted i don't really see a point in nosferatanking because it's her 6 move to an army of units with 8-10 move

[Dark Sage]

Also Katarina needs to go to the bottom of the list

She's ORKO'd by forests.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Tyrant Sage

[arvilino]

Linde is awful. What exactly is she doing over a trained ryan? Meaty chip for 3 chapters? and "nosferatanking" with a seraph robe? I fail to see how she can nosferatank even with a robe, with her pitiful magic base and no doubling. She can take, at best, one enemy in EP and do pitiful damage to it all for the cost of 2500G.

Since the robe lets her take enemy phase attack, early on it's more useful with Aura, Ryan doesn't have much that compares to a 22 might counter at 1-2 against RES.

Edited June 24, 2012 by arvilino

[Dark Sage]

Since the robe lets her take enemy phase attack, early on it's more useful with Aura, Ryan doesn't have much that compares to a 22 might counter at 1-2 against RES.

Aura as far as I know, doesn't OHKO Dracoknights.

[grandjackal]

Aura as far as I know, doesn't OHKO Dracoknights.

Because as we know, that's the only thing that matters. Think of it this way, it doesn't one shot dracos, but it is the next best thing and comes for free. What, we just gonna not use it? You would be saving uses on that absolutely silly forge, and you wouldn't have to worry about doing these weird-ass tradechains for chapter 3.

Then we have everything else, to which Aura is still superior to (power, accuracy). In fact, didn't part of the 6x strat involve hitting Roro with that forge, which was stupid to do due to accuracy? Aura could do the same thing without that problem if Linde is up and proper for it. (Though I'm pretty sure there's like a hundred and one ways to 1 turn 6x, but whatever).

[Colonel M]

Linde would have to be the one to kill Roro, which is a big Nono, though.

[grandjackal]

Linde would have to be the one to kill Roro, which is a big Nono, though.

Why is that? Does Roro give this all important level to someone that they instantly go to shit without it? Does it kill turns later? No? then who cares who gets it?

I would have said something else, but then I saw that roro has 17 speed and Linde would have had to get 5 speed. I mean, with Rainbw Potion it would only need to be 3, but seriously RP in 6x?

By the way, I 3 turned P-7 Cain, and have found a...Somewhat reliable way to do it consistantly. Issue is it relies on a cav, and they need to be able to live, not get doubled, and do 9 damage to Cain.

EDIT EDIT: Another way for Linde to help with Roro without taking the kill: Rezire. Only issue is, I dunno what level to expect out of her by now.

suppose I'll check in my current playthrough.

Edited June 25, 2012 by grandjackal

[Colonel M]

You really should aim to choke boss CEXP to Sirius or even others like Palla. Sirius's main reason is his CEXP gain is kind of limited with all the unpromoted mooks still running around.

As for Cain... Not getting doubled and doing 9 damage as a Cavalier... I think only a MU can do that. I can't view spoiler tags on my phone for some reason, but doesn't Cain have like 11-12 Spd? If so, Luke needs two Spd procs, but I'm guessing it puts P-8 into a 10 turn, unless I missed something.

[grandjackal]

You really should aim to choke boss CEXP to Sirius or even others like Palla. Sirius's main reason is his CEXP gain is kind of limited with all the unpromoted mooks still running around.

As for Cain... Not getting doubled and doing 9 damage as a Cavalier... I think only a MU can do that. I can't view spoiler tags on my phone for some reason, but doesn't Cain have like 11-12 Spd? If so, Luke needs two Spd procs, but I'm guessing it puts P-8 into a 10 turn, unless I missed something.

You only really need 1 HP, Speed and Def, the HP and Def prior to the chapter, the speed at least during. The Def is the only really annoying part. If you happen to be powering Luke early, then this shouldn't even be a problem outside of crap luck.

The other thing is Ryan needs a point in Strength, or Luke does. If either gets it, then cool. The real difficult part is Fighter MU surviving a Myrm and an Archer. I was Def blessed (like level 7 with 6 Def, or level 6), but my build wasn't intending for it (I tend to go speed future rather than present, opting for Mighty present instead. Issue being that I'm not 100% sure I had the actual stats to back up the claim). If the usual Def is 3, then I think I had enough...

How to do it: Maric and Ryan attack the Armor over the river, Luke attacks it from the space north of it with an Iron Lance (thus the Str proc form him or Ryan, Ryan preferred). Shiida does her usual thing with the Myrm. Athena takes the space just 1 north of Maric, with MU a space south of Maric.

MU does super effective damage to the Armor, Luke kills the myrm (getting his level off it, for me anyways since I was powering Ryan) and takes a hit from the archer (thus why the Def and HP).

Athena kills the north Archer, Luke occupies a northern fort that lets him attack Cain the next turn while downing a vuln. Ryan kills the Knight (thus why the Str is preferred on him rather than Luke). MU moves face first against the Myrm and downs a vuln with Steel equipped, Maric blasting with fire. Shiida takes to a fort near Cain.

The Myrm kills himself, then the Archer attacks.

Next turn, MU with Maric or Ryan clean up the archer, then Shiida and Athena deal damage to Cain, Luke coming in for the kill (now thinking about it, the speed isn't necessary if you're feeding the kill to Luke, nor is the vulnery). Otherwise, the kill can go to either him, Shiida or Athena. There is your 3 turn.

As for Sirius, I recall dondon saying something like Sirius isn't exactly long term or something to that effect. You could if you want, but it's plenty of trouble. As for Palla, her problem merely is that she doesn't have a Wing.

Besides that thought process, I'mma give Linde a spin this time around. Wanna see what her level will be for it, because if too slow for Aura she could always use Rezire if that would work instead.

That does remind me of something though. If one is to seriously use her, there is always the option of just buying the Spirit Dusts from the base shop and then throwing it at her. Early on, we have but a forge to spend money on, and if it's +4 then we got plenty more to get all 3 dusts and then some. Silly? Of course, but it's also out the gate with 29 magic damage. On top of insane chip, it lets her one shot some lesser durability enemies like thieves, hunters, mages, etc, or it lets her syphon back 18 damage with Rezire if so desired.

By the way, anyone tried Horseman Arran for chapter 1? Works surprisingly well, thanks to enemy AI being rock stupid in that chapter. Also, is it agreed that MU gets the Bond Drop? Because he totally should.