H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Colonel M]

Sirius's biggest problem is that his growth and bases are decent, but he's almost dependant on stat boosters to survive. Also, Falcoknight Catria, who is also the better or best recipient for the Pegasi Wings, pretty much stays ahead of the game on Sirius. Sirius actually needs a lot of help to keep going while Catria is (almost) self-sufficient.

I chatted with Sage on IRC for a while last night and we came to somewhat of a conclusion to shelf Linde at the moment since it is a bit of a "statboosters vs forges" playstyle argument.

For some reason, perhaps the masochism in me, I actually want to hear your points on Linde here. I don't know if it would be better to start with Ryan or Merric, but Ryan is probably a fine benchpoint. Either way... I'll await those.

[*]Catria > Sirius

Good.

[*]Altean Cavs adjacent

While I have an over-exessive hatred of Cecile for some reason, I can let it slide.

[*]Minerva down to top of Upper Mid

Considering her awkward costs, I could live with it.

[*]Arran to Unique Utility

Probably should add Wendell for consistency (he does kind of take Arran's place for a while).

[*]Belf / Leiden after Dragontown

[*]More investigation, preferably with actual play, on the efficacy of growth units and the possibility of applying LSBs to them in order to get them to a point where they can activate their growths, and notably which ones are effected. Likely focus on Ogma / Barst, but Cain, Frey, and Navarre are likely early enough to get a bump. 1 stat booster is the optimal amount, but if it's possible to drop 2-3 on a unit and have them excel not just early but all game long as a result, it's feasible.

Discuss!

This is something I'm also curious about, but I'm afraid I really lack the time to do a test on something like this.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Tyranel M

[grandjackal]

Sirius's biggest problem is that his growth and bases are decent, but he's almost dependant on stat boosters to survive. Also, Falcoknight Catria, who is also the better or best recipient for the Pegasi Wings, pretty much stays ahead of the game on Sirius. Sirius actually needs a lot of help to keep going while Catria is (almost) self-sufficient.

This is something I'm also curious about, but I'm afraid I really lack the time to do a test on something like this.

Something I'm willing to concede, as I looked into both these things. With a rainbow potion use and a Weapon Scroll, she can use the silver lance in the likes of chapter 2 and 3 to essentially be able to take on a dracoknight on her own, so that's one less thing the whole team needs to focus on. It's fair game, as no one else at the time is using the Silver Lance. You can still manage turns without the arms scroll on her, but it certainly makes things more relaxed, along with still being cheaper than the bow forge.

Though it DOES make me wonder more about forges. Like obviously we aren't limited to just a Steel Bow or the Wing Spear. What about a forge to sort of push someone along? One thought I had was like a +3 Iron Sword for Julian. For chapter 4, this lets him ORKO hunters (something that not many can do outside of like Paula/Catria, who have better things to do), with a rainbow use (he would need Taurus or be on a fort to survive a bandit though, but at least he can avoid needing an angel robe...For this chapter at least). It's about like 1200 gold (for reference, if a Steel Sword had 10 more uses, it's only about 100 gold more expensive), and it beats just throwing a Weapon Scroll on him (at the present) because E to D is a simple 15. That's still a price tag on him (1200), but it does provide us with a tool that helps in the present (namely with hunters). Furthermore, similar to how the Steel Bow forge would help later, this weapon could help others trying to start off with E swords as there'd still be 25 uses left on it.

Just kinda brainstorming really. Another thing I had a thought about was leveling speed. Chapter 7 for example, most of your team by then won't be getting much exp off the likes of the armors and cavaliers. An example though of someone who would, like Radd, would get 36 exp a kill, which is merely 3 kills for a whole level. That's only an example mind you, as there are many others who would probably be better in this sense. Barst comes to mind.

Anyways, couple other thoughts been thinking of.

-Elleraen with a Weapon Scroll grants him Excalibur access, to which off base Elleraen is vaguely better than Maric all around, to which Maric doesn't build a significant lead up until like 20/8 in the form of speed, the entire time Elleraen having a noticeable durability lead. Notably that he can survive Flying Dragons at base with no aid at all like from shards or a Potion (can one shot them as well with no aid). This gives him a significant head start on Maric, as he can't survive Flying Dragons (and there is an ever so rare occasion he can't one shot either as some dragons come with 44HP and 3 Res, Maric packing a total of 46 mt with Excalibur). So Maric is vaguely better later in that he might have the speed to maybe avoid getting doubled more so his enemy phase is more significant later while Elleraen is potentially better earlier.

-To one shot Dracoknights in 9 with a Silver Bow, you need 16 Strength, able to be supplimented by Taurus, Gemini, Leo, and the Rainbow Potion (so bare minimum: 10). That's a lot to put onto one person, but even Arran has that at base (though he probably doesn't have the rank). It's a shockingly low number in the least. Like, George could take Leo and a swig, he's dandy. Kinda makes me wonder if Norne in the short time between her arrival and chapter 9 if she could be rushed to level 10. She'd have 12 strength as well, but then be complimented by a nice 17 speed with a nice cushy 65% speed growth to top it off. She might like an Energy Drop though, all things said. Could be fair, considering her starting position in 6, and then 7-8 are like purely feeding chapters, on top of the in base arena. Obviously I would imagine Ryan or Gordon being able to hit B bows maybe by this chapter with a good amount of strength needed to cushion them, especially Ryan. Ok, maybe not so much Gordon with rank.

That's about the only vaguely solid thoughts I have on sorts of growth units and resources as it were. I could only think of Julian with the forge example, and the nly other vague feeling I have is Abel, but I have no substantial numbers to back any of it up. Anyone else got thoughts?

[Bluedoom]

I think Leiden should go above Darros actually. Returning from the mainland, Leiden has a better chance of doubling. To double in C17/18 you need 27 AS, funny thing is if Leiden procs just one point of spd, he can double if you give him the RP and LSB Spdwings. Darros and Belf would need to proc 4 spd to double and that's kinda iffy. Leiden can double at base as SM in C15 if you give him an RP, which nullifies the def and str lead that Belf has on him. Doubling with a Wo Dao/Killing Edge is awesome.

Even better, if Leiden procs just one spd in C13/14, then he can reclass to Paladin, giving him 17 base spd, just enough to not be doubled by the mounted units. Ridersbane access is awesome too. I'd say Leiden has a better future than Belf/Darros.

As I posted earlier, ogma doesn't really require any resources to get going and I think he should move to upper mid. If you're using him in prologue,its very easy to bring him upto lvl 10 by C5. Promoting Ogma at that point would give you a Leiden/Belf lite( 18.5 AS which ties with belf's and his strength is 1 point less than Leiden's) which you're getting 7 chapters earlier(not counting Gaidens.) Promotion isn't required but that option is there. Armourslayer access means he's awesome in C6 ans C8, he can reclass to myrm to double enemies in C5 and he needs only the RP in C4 to double all enemies in the map. I'd suggest moving Ogma to upper mid, probably above Darros since a trained Ogma generally ties or has better stats than Belf and Leiden at their join time and he doesn't require resources.

Wrt other chars in the lower mid tier, Barst has a future if you give him an arms scroll in axes and reclass to pirate, THEN give him an RP. He can ORKO the knights in C6 but that's really about it. Still needs base arena abuse but on the bright side he's an axe unit and those are nice to have. But honestly you could just promote and use Dice, who's a Barst lite in any case.

ROGER benefits from his high base spd big time. He has base spd of 16 as a Sniper, and that's not factoring in the Spd proc he is bound to get in his two lvl ups for promotion(on average). No we're looking at 17 AS, 11-12 Str. 17 AS is enough to not get doubled by the 20 spd dracos, so now he's pretty set for the game. He probably benefits from arms scroll- B bows is nice and he can reclass to general for C bows and C lances. EDIT: On second thought we aren't letting dracos attack him at one range. In any case you could just give him Scorpio and he can double mages from two range.

I actually think Roger needs to compete with HORACE, who comes only two chapters later, has VERY similar growths( Roger will forever beat Horace in AS and Luck while Horace beats Roger forever in durability. I think the bases nullify the growths though) and actually has a higher str base. You'll probably want to give Horace an orb and an RP use + arms scroll, while Roger, wants more str. Otherwise both function VERY similarly. I think due to his better base Roger should go above Cain(even if Cain has prologue utility, you've got Ogma, MU, Athena who can all double and exist earlier) I argue Roger>Horace, so if Horace does come out of Free Silvers, shouldn't go above Roger who has more potential.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Bluedoom

[eclipse]

Ellerean will forever have a durability lead on Merric, but I don't know if this matters in H3 (it does in late H1). I think whether or not he goes anywhere depends on how contested the Arms Scrolls are. If there's earlier, better candidates for them, then Ellerean's SOL.

Dunno how important Chapters 6x, 7, and 8 are for archers, but I don't really see the point in using Norne when Gordin/Ryan exist, and Jeorge comes shortly afterwards (never mind Arran/Sirius).

[Blademaster!]

Dunno how important Chapters 6x, 7, and 8 are for archers, but I don't really see the point in using Norne when Gordin/Ryan exist, and Jeorge comes shortly afterwards (never mind Arran/Sirius).

For 6x, you don't need Archers at all. All you need is someone to kill the Armor knight, Fighter, and Roro, the former two of which can be done very easily, and the later just needs some who can deal a lot of direct damage to Roro and then Linde can finish him off with Aura.

For 7, I'm not using any Archers in my current play through of that chapter (which is also my first one so I don't have bonus shop items), but the only thing I could really see any archer helping with in that chapter is killing the fire dragon, since otherwise your fliers, Marth, Feena, and Navarre do all the work in that chapter.

Haven't done chapter 8 so I won't comment on it just yet, but that's just my two cents on that matter.

[grandjackal]

For 6x, you don't need Archers at all. All you need is someone to kill the Armor knight, Fighter, and Roro, the former two of which can be done very easily, and the later just needs some who can deal a lot of direct damage to Roro and then Linde can finish him off with Aura.

For 7, I'm not using any Archers in my current play through of that chapter (which is also my first one so I don't have bonus shop items), but the only thing I could really see any archer helping with in that chapter is killing the fire dragon, since otherwise your fliers, Marth, Feena, and Navarre do all the work in that chapter.

Haven't done chapter 8 so I won't comment on it just yet, but that's just my two cents on that matter.

Well with 6x, if you an manage these kills, if you have any leftover, you might as well try to nick what kills you can, though deployment slots are very slim there. With 7 though, if you're not flying, you are basically just trying to feed off what exp you can from armors and cavs while trying to get the Physic staff while Marth gets to the throne. 8 is very much the same was as while enemies are promoted, there's like a grand total of 5 you actually have to deal with.

Kinda thought over the math in turns and if Norne could actually get this 10 by chapter 9. Her leveling speed helps, but she would still need arena levels. So...Yeah, was just a theory after all. Besides, you have Frey. He might need a weapon scroll for silver bows, but he takes significantly little effort in comparison, and the results are arguably better (better at dracos due to less resources needed vs doubling mages)

[Dark Sage]

Why is it that when mention of growth units are brought up, Grandjackal immediately starts hyping dumbshits like Horace and Norne instead of units like Barst and Navarre who might actually perform decently/acceptably when trained (and who have tricks besides Sniper + Arms Scroll BS).

In any case, how effective growth units are depends on their opportunities to gain experience. Ogma is definitely the best in this regard (Ogma could actually be seen as a legitimately good unit), with Barst and Navarre in second place. Now since nobody has actually used these growth units except for Lumi (who used Navarre and doesn't argue on the list), it's very hard to make accurate comparisons and analyses on these units. However, that does not mean people should immediately go "hai gaiz look this dumbshit Free Silver can be used, but first you have to reclass him to Sniper and then give him an Arms Scroll and RP and Taurus and shit" while ignoring their performance outside of classes other than Sniper.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Tyrant Sage

[grandjackal]

Why is it that when mention of growth units are brought up, Grandjackal immediately starts hyping dumbshits like Horace and Norne instead of units like Barst and Navarre who might actually perform decently/acceptably when trained (and who have tricks besides Sniper + Arms Scroll BS).

Well first off, Norne wasn't a hype as much as an initial thought, of which passed quick (Notably because 5 levels in that short a time frame is impossible, even if you were an actually competent class. Actually came close though, but close only counts in horseshoes as we know. Certainly wouldn't splurge money for arena levels on her for it). Secondly, we already know of Navarre actually not being half bad. Thirdly, Sniper+Arms Scroll in fairness is a super easy way out.

No one talks about Barst though and I'd love to hear it, so if you have any actual numbers to show Barst is awesome instead of yelling at me for not mentioning him, then show it. Let's start with the idea that kinda holds him back I suppose in that his joining chapter is pretty awful for him, and after chapter 6 the enemy speed roof does a polevault jump that leaves him in an awkward position where he's not slow but also not fast enough, and has a hard time actually busting out of it. I'll give a rough estimation of maybe 4-6 levels by the time we hit chapter 9 due to availability and the arena. That's generally around 16 speed as a pirate which due to axe rank would benefit him well, but the awkwardness is notable. Can't double mages. Gets doubled by dracos. But hey, if you promote him then and make him a Sniper, that problem goes away. Weapons scroll him, he can one shot dracos.

Wait, that sounds like every other "dumbshit" as you call them, and if I'm not allowed to use the Sniper with WS argument, then I guess Barst has a hugely significant problem as well. Your move.

In any case, how effective growth units are depends on their opportunities to gain experience. Ogma is definitely the best in this regard (Ogma could actually be seen as a legitimately good unit), with Barst and Navarre in second place. Now since nobody has actually used these growth units except for Lumi (who used Navarre and doesn't argue on the list), it's very hard to make accurate comparisons and analyses on these units. However, that does not mean people should immediately go "hai gaiz look this dumbshit Free Silver can be used, but first you have to reclass him to Sniper and then give him an Arms Scroll and RP and Taurus and shit" while ignoring their performance outside of classes other than Sniper.

Well Sniper is a safe class, and if it works then it works. As for Ogma, I'm fairly certain we already knew he was good. I know I throw a hairbrained idea out there now and then, but you should only bitch at me if I constantly try to push a unit blindly.

By the way, if all it takes for Horace to be good is a weapon scroll, how does that make him bad? Other than it gets in the way of repeating already done arguments like if Luke is indeed the best of the 3 starting cavaliers, or if Sirius is as good as everyone thinks (an argument that ultimately goes nowhere).

[Lord Raven]

horace is a supreme dumbshit unit

[grandjackal]

horace is a supreme dumbshit unit

Because...?

Man it's no wonder this topic's been dead for like a year.

[Dark Sage]

Well first off, Norne wasn't a hype as much as an initial thought, of which passed quick (Notably because 5 levels in that short a time frame is impossible, even if you were an actually competent class. Actually came close though, but close only counts in horseshoes as we know. Certainly wouldn't splurge money for arena levels on her for it). Secondly, we already know of Navarre actually not being half bad. Thirdly, Sniper+Arms Scroll in fairness is a super easy way out.

Arms Scrolls + Sniper is a pretty bad argument. It only allows units to blick wyverns while being kind of bad against everything else, except they're not even that good against wyverns because they need RP or Leo alongside it. You also really don't need to use an Arms Scroll because you have the Steel Bow forge anyway.

No one talks about Barst though and I'd love to hear it, so if you have any actual numbers to show Barst is awesome instead of yelling at me for not mentioning him, then show it. Let's start with the idea that kinda holds him back I suppose in that his joining chapter is pretty awful for him, and after chapter 6 the enemy speed roof does a polevault jump that leaves him in an awkward position where he's not slow but also not fast enough, and has a hard time actually busting out of it. I'll give a rough estimation of maybe 4-6 levels by the time we hit chapter 9 due to availability and the arena. That's generally around 16 speed as a pirate which due to axe rank would benefit him well, but the awkwardness is notable. Can't double mages. Gets doubled by dracos. But hey, if you promote him then and make him a Sniper, that problem goes away. Weapons scroll him, he can one shot dracos.

Wait, that sounds like every other "dumbshit" as you call them, and if I'm not allowed to use the Sniper with WS argument, then I guess Barst has a hugely significant problem as well. Your move.

Way to be smug without actually posting anything of particular value. I never said that you are not allowed to use Sniper in comparisons. In fact, that is not even my opinion. I am simply saying that it's dumb to fanboy over units because "OMG they can go Sniper and use an arms scroll to one shot fliers."

Barst has options besides Sniper, namely Hero, Swordmaster, and Berserker. 11/1 Barst has 19 AS as a Hero, which is enough to double mages and avoid being doubled by Dracos while allowing him to build his axe rank. Second of all, if you do have Barst go Sniper, then he shitstomps Horace. A promoted Barst doesn't get doubled by wyverns and with a Steel Forge, he 2HKOs Barbarians. If you give him a RP, he one rounds them which is actually kind of useful since Barbarians are kind of tough. Sniper Horace can't double and he can't 2HKO without RP/Leo. He also can't take a Hunter + Barbarian or Hunter + Wyvern attack while Barst can.

Also Horace is terrible in classes other than Sniper. As a Dracoknight, he has 13 AS at base. That's horrible and its pretty much the only class he has other than Sniper he has an existing weapon rank in.

Well Sniper is a safe class, and if it works then it works. As for Ogma, I'm fairly certain we already knew he was good. I know I throw a hairbrained idea out there now and then, but you should only bitch at me if I constantly try to push a unit blindly.

A good chunk of the topic is composed of you trying to throw on resources on units in a desperate attempt to get them out of Free Silvers, including units such as Jake and Malice, so I have just cause in believing that you hype units blindly.

By the way, if all it takes for Horace to be good is a weapon scroll, how does that make him bad?

Horace is not actually good with an Arms Scroll. It allows him to OHKO wyverns (with some assistance from RP/Leo) but wyverns do not make up the majority of the enemies after Chapter 11. He's two shotted by enemies like Fire Dragons and Barbarians and like, 3-4HKOs in return. It gets even worse against Ice Dragons which are actually bulky and have a chance of critblicking him. Really, Horace is basically like Darros/Minerva with worse bases and with none of the advantages that make them decent (Hauteclere, durability).

Sniper + Arms Scroll is basically the new Curate -> Sniper and it's getting kind of stupid. People recognized this back in 2010. For example:

I'm not going to be a fan of giving contested items to people so they can get out of Free Silvers. The Linde bit is mainly because she gets a huge huge HUGE boost in performance with a Robe, better than any other unit. She's the only non-MU unit that is able to both 2HKO and counter Dracoknights, which is a big deal. But giving Arms Scrolls to people like Dice and Maris so that they can do something that they're a: not especially good at, b: not unique in (you have Jeorge and probably Ryan doing the exact same thing by that point), and c: still need a Seal AND AN ARMS SCROLL to do. Blargh.

I think people are starting to overrate sniping Flying Dragons. They're really only common in Chapter 11. There are a few in Chapters 12 and 13, but there aren't an overwhelmingly large amount of them and they really don't appear again until after Chapter 20x, and even then, they're only there in Chapter 21 and Final.

EDIT: Post is made clearer now.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Tyrant Sage

[dondon151]

Because...?

dude just look at his base stats, his growths, and his base level

i mean he's like, fucking dice except he levels up slower

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah I don't think Horace is very salvageable long-term. Comparing him to base Jeorge (who gets an additional chapter) it's not all that favorable. Jeorge has +2 HP, +4 Def compared to Horace's +2 Str and +1 Spd. Horace has very marginally better growths (+10% Str and Def, +15% Spd). Jeorge's only as high as he is because he can OHKO Dracoknights/Wyverns at base with Parthia, or with a Silver Bow and RP/str shards. Horace needs an Arms Scroll just to do the latter (and doesn't help with the C10 Dracoknights). Yeah with resources he can have some temporary use, but I'm not sure this gets him out of Free Silvers. In truth some of the earlier Free Silvers characters are quite salvageable, they're just outclassed.

[grandjackal]

Yeah I don't think Horace is very salvageable long-term. Comparing him to base Jeorge (who gets an additional chapter) it's not all that favorable. Jeorge has +2 HP, +4 Def compared to Horace's +2 Str and +1 Spd. Horace has very marginally better growths (+10% Str and Def, +15% Spd). Jeorge's only as high as he is because he can OHKO Dracoknights/Wyverns at base with Parthia, or with a Silver Bow and RP/str shards. Horace needs an Arms Scroll just to do the latter (and doesn't help with the C10 Dracoknights). Yeah with resources he can have some temporary use, but I'm not sure this gets him out of Free Silvers. In truth some of the earlier Free Silvers characters are quite salvageable, they're just outclassed.

Yeah, I get the point. Kinda got ahead of myself I suppose. Again.

Suppose I'll stop trying to take conversation to "supposed unsung heroes" and look at perhaps a rearranging of lower mid. Cain, Frey, Roger, Navarre, Ogma and Barst are all characters that don't get talked about a lot, but we have a vague sense that they could be usable. Ogma can at minimum get a level out of prologue, and you kinda just have to use him in 4, so I think it's pretty easy to assume 2 levels by chapter 5, at worst having to cap a level with the arena. Generally speaking he can do what you need him to do, like he can ORKO slower mages, or with an RP he can do solid damage to cavs, or can go south with the Armorslayer to take out the armors. Needs RP for chapter 6, but again can generally do whatever you need him to do (though he can't ORKO throne room armors without a strength shard or both). 6x can be a filler to take out the Armor with just a strength shard. 7 and 8 are kinda grab bags for guys like him since he can't fly (nor would he be any good at it). But generally he has a very usable start.

Could probably safely say 12/1 by 9. Would look like this as a Hero.

38 HP, 13 Str, 19 Skl, 18 Spd, 8 Lck, 11 Def 3 Res, B Swords

This notably is 3RKOd by dracos, WTA or no. With a Hand Axe he can ORKO mages (might need an RP use or the Leo shard however to guarantee them all), and with a Pure Water is 3HKOd until the third turn after use. His speed is stable enough that he can also go Berserker without his performance changing if he so wishes, or can go Swordmaster to get a quicker A rank so he can have a speed bonus with very minimal damage loss. With proper levels, he can also retain the Hero class while still being able to fight Barbarians and Hunters past chapter 10, though if get bad Speed procs you can still just retreat to Swordmaster. Assuming about 3 levels between chapter 9 and 12, he will have the Str to ORKO Fire Dragons with a normal Wyrmslayer sword, though might need the Scorpio Shard to double, or be a Swordmaster (the A rank in swords still lets him manage). If he's stuffed with Defense shards (or given a Dracoshield from chapter 11), he's even 3RKOd (namely he could get away with just a Draco+Cancer, or just have a Rainbow Potion which he might needanyways. Let's Cancer go to someone else. or the Dracoshield since Ogma's Def growth is garbage anyways). He actually has an easier time with Ice Dragons since they're slower than Fire, simply needing a +2 Str boost to manage. He can handle lesser threats like Bandits and Dark Mages well enough on his own long as he has a Hand Axe.

Ogma never really seems to fall off actually. His only really notable issues is that his speed as a hero is pretty cusp, so he can't go the likes of Paladin to have that mobility, definitely can't go Draco. But still, his midgame performance looks pretty stellar, with his lategame being decent. Could possibly say he belongs above the Sable Knights in mid. Though again I might be shortsighting myself. Feel free to bust my ass about it.

Will look into others. Barst as mentioned also has me super interested now.

[Lord Raven]

dude just look at his base stats, his growths, and his base level

i mean he's like, fucking dice except he levels up slower

to be fair i was just making fun of our beloved user but yeah sure

but yeah i don't feel the need to beat a dead horse atm

[grandjackal]

to be fair i was just making fun of our beloved user but yeah sure

but yeah i don't feel the need to beat a dead horse atm

I dropped it anyways.

So. Ogma. Discuss.

[-Cynthia-]

I dropped it anyways.

So. Ogma. Discuss.

I used Ogma...not a bad unit, although I don't know why you'd bother going Berserker or Dracoknight or whatever with him. His only rank is in swords and he's on the slow side- I had him act as a SM for pretty much every chapter. Navarre and Cain are similar to Ogma, although IMO Ogma is a bit better due to his availability edge.

I'd say Belf and Raiden are approximately as useful as Ogma/Navarre/Cain. The latter have availability on their side, but Belf and Raiden are less resource intensive.

Barst is kind of different because he should really be in axe using classes, otherwise he's just the above characters without sword rank.

Edited January 8, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

leiden blows and belf probably blows even more

[eclipse]

Belf and his amazing starting speed of 13 isn't a point in his favor. His speed is worrisome, and I'm doing this on H1.

Can't speak for Leiden.

[grandjackal]

Whether they blow are not is one thing, but I think it could be easily seen that perhaps they could switch places with Ogma, since Ogma is ok over a large portion of the game. Standard having more time to contribute thing. Like, he'lldefinitely be beating Belf in speed while tying strength, having a bit of a durability lead. With Leiden, it's a matter of tying speed, but winning everything else. Their only real advantages in exchange are not being statistically far off while having notably lower base levels so they'd probably grow better going in late, and they have a lance rank. That's not really all that much an advantage in return.

Anyways, suppose with these comparisons to Belf and Leiden compared to those currently in lower mid, suppose next is Barst. Needless to say, his start is pretty unfortunate in chapter 5 what with all the sword users he's thrust up against, but he exists there anyways so do what you can I guess. I'd imagine in the least, could get him enough to top off a level as a Pirate in the arena. 340% total growths is pretty healthy in that regard.

As a pirate going into chapter 6 however, I notice an immediate problem. Even with a level to give him +1 HP he's guaranteed to get, as a Pirate he gets one shotted by mages. Luckily there's few of them, and easily taken out/you have better to kill the mages in the treasure room anyways. With a speed proc he can double slower armors, but for the sake of reason, it's probably better to assume Rainbow Potion. He can't ORKO, but he does leave armors low enough that he can kill them on his own (notably leaving them at 12 HP). He can't do the same with throne room armors, however, unless he procs strength. Chances are he won't be there anyways, mostly just trying to mooch what reinforcement kills he can before the chapter ends. Luck would have it, he can ORKO slower end Soldiers and Archers with a steel axe, so he can get something out of them. Overall though, his performance is ok, but he's clearly not on the upper end of things.

He's unfortunately irrelevant in 6x, so no free kill for him. Chapter 7 continues to suck for him, as he can't do much to the fire dragon, cavalier reinforcements have swords so his axe accuracy is shot, though armors (if they even enter the equation before the chapter ends) he can deal with similarly to chapter 6. Chapter 8 at least grants him some reprieve. He has waterwalk so he doesn't clog the bridge while being able to attack from an angle most can't. If he's gained 3 levels, he can be take a hit from the Javelin Paladin and still be able to attack back on player phase. The chapter ends quick. and he's clearly just a leech here since enemies here are pretty swole. But at least he's beng a minorly useful leech.

I don't quite know if he can get 10/0 for chapter 9, but he'll need it. He'd still get doubled by dracos and mages would still wreck him. If you can get him to 10/1 though...

10/1 Hero Barst, assuming Pirate

33 HP, 14 Str, 19-20 Skl, 19 Speed, 8-9 Lck, 12 Def, 3 Res, probably C rank Axes with D rank Swords

He's still losing to Ogma, though he's gotten a LOT better as outside of HP and rank they are similar. However, Ogma thanks to B rank swords is only 1 pointless mt behind Ogma, and swords are a lot more relevant in the coming chapters due to all the bandits along with Wyrmslayers. Barst does have more accurate hand axe counters (though barely), and can use the Killer Axes you get from chapter 11, but is missing the more key components since offensively Ogma can do the same thing with a Hand Axe, but more due to weapon access, and has an actual durability advantage at times. He's got Hammers and the Poleaxe for things to come from Chapter 15 onwards, but it's a long time coming.

So at least on paper, Barst is a struggle to get to that key level he needs in time, and after an early promotion he's still not really the hottest unit out there, but I imagine he pays his due lategame since he'll have the stats/axes are actually useful then. I'd say he's definitely worse than Ogma, and might keep his place in lower mid.

P.S. I suggested Ogma as a Berserker only for the likes of like..Chapter 9 and 10, as he still retains the speed he needs to do what he needs to do, but has the benefits of greater growths and building an axe rank, seeing as his sword rank is pretty much secure. Afterwards, definitely would suggest going back to Hero. Would pretty much be the same deal for Barst.

Also, Barst does not look all that effective as a Draco, though if anyone can get that to work, Barst at least has axe rank to make use of it.

[GoogleKrom]

(First post, so go easy on me.)

This is a small point, but why is Wrys up in Unique Utility tier? He starts with an E staff rank and doesn't have access to any unique staves. I understand UU is largely a pick-and-choose when it comes to staff wielders, but Wrys' bases are so utterly average that just about any unit can reclass to Curate and be equally effective. Admittedly, he's your only healer for the final five chapters of the Prologue, so he'll get some experience and might raise his staff level, but then he's absent again until 3x.

I'm sure there's a simple explanation for his placement, and I understand not wanting to lump every otherwise-useless unit into UU for "potential staff utility," but there seems to be a bit of a grey area here.

[grandjackal]

(First post, so go easy on me.)

This is a small point, but why is Wrys up in Unique Utility tier? He starts with an E staff rank and doesn't have access to any unique staves. I understand UU is largely a pick-and-choose when it comes to staff wielders, but Wrys' bases are so utterly average that just about any unit can reclass to Curate and be equally effective. Admittedly, he's your only healer for the final five chapters of the Prologue, so he'll get some experience and might raise his staff level, but then he's absent again until 3x.

I'm sure there's a simple explanation for his placement, and I understand not wanting to lump every otherwise-useless unit into UU for "potential staff utility," but there seems to be a bit of a grey area here.

Well, yes. UU basically is grey area. Wrys is there because tiering staff users tends to be nonsense to do.

As for Wrys, with prologue in mind, he can have D rank pretty easy...and that pretty much solidifies him in UU. Staff rank tends to build at a pretty fast rate, so his low base doesn't really mean much n comparison to let's say Yumina's base of C. Wrys will have C in time for Physic, and you don't get B or A rank staffs for a good while.

[Anouleth]

Wrys has the highest resistance in the game, which is unique and useful. Therefore, he's in unique utility.

(and also staff rank yadda yadda who cares when he can blow up Gharnef????)

[Espinosa]

Yubello has the lowest mag base in the game which is unique but no fun at all.

Also, are the characters in Unique Utility ranked according to their utility at all? For example, it's a good idea if I'm wondering which of Katarina vs Etzel is better for a playthrough, and the tier list would reflect it somehow. I do think that with the set definition of efficiency as 'turncount per chapter', discussion of Julian vs Feena or Feena vs Xane is possible. How do the two characters affect turns (if we assume Julian is recruited, which everyone else here seems to do, but I'm personally horrified how many turns he costs in his join chapter).

[LeaderR Elliot]

If you dont recruit julian you cannot recruit rickard which means Marth has to go to every important treasure chest since you dont get chest keys(lolBS FE) or master keys(LolChp20).