H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

I second moving Wendell to unique utility. He's just Etzel but slightly worse bases and growths.

I'm thirding this, he's a slightly inferior Etzel who joins earlier. He's a serviceable staffbot, which would put him in Unique Utility.

[LeaderR Elliot]

IMO I do not think so. Wendell is comparable to Etzel... Etzel has superior Bulk and completely superior growths That means the gap between Etzel and Wendell never closes. Wendell only has avaibility on his favor, his base speed no longer helps him and it does not have his bet weapon until 5-6 Chapters later. A promoted Malliesa is better than Wendell.

Staffbot? Maybe but just because his 6 Mov. You also already have Malliesa and Yumina.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

IMO I do not think so. Wendell is comparable to Etzel... Etzel has superior Bulk and completely superior growths That means the gap between Etzel and Wendell never closes. Wendell only has avaibility on his favor, his base speed no longer helps him and it does not have his bet weapon until 5-6 Chapters later. A promoted Malliesa is better than Wendell.

Staffbot? Maybe but just because his 6 Mov. You also already have Malliesa and Yumina.

In LTC, at least, Etzel can Rescue from the start (obviously, since it requires only E staves), which is a huge part of his utility. The rescue uses also help him greatly on his way to C staves for any physic use, and he might be able to B staves for Again use if absolutely necessary.

In the chapters Wendell is available but Etzel is not, he really doesn't do anything of significance, although he is decent as a temp. unit until then, I guess. His bases are like Arran's at a point in the game where you're dropping Arran (H3 isn't kind to him past C3-4). I mean, if Wendell came for C6 so at least you didn't have to do that weird Arran caster reclass to LTC it...but he doesn't; he happens to come exactly one chapter after that.

Wendell's biggest contribution is recruiting Ellerean to your team for a free Thoron.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Dark Sage]

In LTC, at least, Etzel can Rescue from the start (obviously, since it requires only E staves), which is a huge part of his utility. The rescue uses also help him greatly on his way to C staves for any physic use, and he might be able to B staves for Again use if absolutely necessary.

So can Wendell and he has a couple extra chapters to start working on his staff rank.

In the chapters Wendell is available but Etzel is not, he really doesn't do anything of significance, although he is decent as a temp. unit until then, I guess. His bases are like Arran's at a point in the game where you're dropping Arran (H3 isn't kind to him past C3-4). I mean, if Wendell came for C6 so at least you didn't have to do that weird Arran caster reclass to LTC it...but he doesn't; he happens to come exactly one chapter after that.

A free staffbot is always good. I would hardly call extra healing and rescuing "not significant". In any case, Wendell's bases are sufficient for what he's doing. I checked his stats and at base, he can OHKO all the wyverns in the desert and only needs an HP proc, defense proc, star shard or Rainbow Potion use to avoid being OHKO'd in return. The benchmarks increase over time but he can still meet them thanks to all of the above resources that can increase his durability. Thanks to his earlier jointime, he can reach B staves faster than Etzel meaning that when both stop being useful combat units, Wendell has an advantage since he has access to Again sooner.

Wendell's biggest contribution is recruiting Ellerean to your team for a free Thoron.

Lol.

[LeaderR Elliot]

Wendell has an advantage since he has access to Again sooner.

There are only two again staves in the game. And By those standarts the chars who have a sooner access to Again are Yumina and Maliessa.

Wendell is a staffbot but he is not healing more than Etzel. Maybe if you are using him you may get access to the 2-3 psychic staves sooner (But maybe those could be out of uses)

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

So can Wendell and he has a couple extra chapters to start working on his staff rank.

That...really isn't a big deal. He's not doing much in C7 (a Rescue use + maybe a heal/mend, really) and C8 is 3 turns long (no rescue, maybe a couple heal/mends). So we're talking a small fraction of one staff rank here, while Etzel wins SIGNIFICANTLY in growths/bases.

A free staffbot is always good. I would hardly call extra healing and rescuing "not significant". In any case, Wendell's bases are sufficient for what he's doing. I checked his stats and at base, he can OHKO all the wyverns in the desert and only needs an HP proc, defense proc, star shard or Rainbow Potion use to avoid being OHKO'd in return. The benchmarks increase over time but he can still meet them thanks to all of the above resources that can increase his durability. Thanks to his earlier jointime, he can reach B staves faster than Etzel meaning that when both stop being useful combat units, Wendell has an advantage since he has access to Again sooner.

You have Yumina (comes with C staves base and EARLIER), Mal, Etzel, and possibly promoted Lena. That's 3 or 4 staff-bots -- how many do you think we need here? Oh, and for C11, I'm pretty sure Etzel does it at base (and you have to heal him with either physic or vulneraries between each kill, since he needs like 2-3 kills in 2-3 turns straight; everything you said can be done on Etzel too) -- there's actually NO reason to field Wendell instead of Etzel, bar really REALLY lucky growths. Oh, and did I mention that when you get the Again staff (C14), Mal is just about to promote and outclass Wendell tremendously (in dondon's LTC run, Mal was at 19.28/--)? You could just arena Mal twice, promote her one level early, or not be hitting theroretical minimums for turns (giving Mal more turns to heal), and all of a sudden you have a 6-move, A staff staffbot. Ta-da~

Lol.

Well, let's see here. He comes in 6x or 7, is useless in C6x (might as well use Yumina here for rescue or just have a combat unit reclass to cleric for a free 50 exp, as long as it doesn't cause them to level), a 4 turn of C7 is possible with Mal's 5 MOV, and C8 requires no rescue use and lasts 3 turns. From C9 on, Etzel rapes Wendell in everything but a fraction of a staff level (until Wendell's best conditions, and actually requires you to forgo otherwise free exp on Mal or a combat unit to do).

Like I said, he can at least recruit Ellerean for a free Thoron, which is a nice tome for Linde/Merric, if you use one of them.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Dark Sage]

That...really isn't a big deal. He's not doing much in C7 (a Rescue use + maybe a heal/mend, really) and C8 is 3 turns long (no rescue, maybe a couple heal/mends). So we're talking a small fraction of one staff rank here, while Etzel wins SIGNIFICANTLY in growths/bases.

We are not assuming that we are always three turning Chapter 7.

You have Yumina (comes with C staves base and EARLIER), Mal, Etzel, and possibly promoted Lena. That's 3 or 4 staff-bots -- how many do you think we need here? Oh, and for C11, I'm pretty sure Etzel does it at base (and you have to heal him with either physic or vulneraries between each kill, since he needs like 2-3 kills in 2-3 turns straight; everything you said can be done on Etzel too) -- there's actually NO reason to field Wendell instead of Etzel, bar really REALLY lucky growths. Oh, and did I mention that when you get the Again staff (C14), Mal is just about to promote and outclass Wendell tremendously (in dondon's LTC run, Mal was at 19.28/--)? You could just arena Mal twice, promote her one level early, or not be hitting theroretical minimums for turns (giving Mal more turns to heal), and all of a sudden you have a 6-move, A staff staffbot. Ta-da~

Sorry but that's a terrible argument. The argument that Wendell is bad because other staffbots are better is dumb because all it does is just show that they're better than him, not that he's useless. By that logic, Katarina should drop below Wendell. She comes in Chapter 16x with bases barely better than Wendell's and only has a C rank in staves. But who cares about that staff rank when we have Etzel, Malliesia, and Yumina rite? Oh wait. She's still a staffbot so she's still Unique Utility. By applying your "lots of people are better lolz" argument to Wendell and not Katarina (and Wrys too) you are creating a double standard.

You also act as if Wendell can't be used alongside Malliesia or Etzel but that is simply not true. The point is that he is not necessarily better than either of them, the point is that he has utility when used. Ignoring that utility simply because others are better is idiotic. Or do you want Darros/Belf/Leiden to drop back into Free Silvers too while you're at it.

Well, let's see here. He comes in 6x or 7, is useless in C6x (might as well use Yumina here for rescue or just have a combat unit reclass to cleric for a free 50 exp, as long as it doesn't cause them to level)

Or use Wendell.

a 4 turn of C7 is possible with Mal's 5 MOV

Or Wendell's 6 move.

and C8 requires no rescue use and lasts 3 turns.

Not sure if we're assuming that.

From C9 on, Etzel rapes Wendell in everything but a fraction of a staff level (until Wendell's best conditions, and actually requires you to forgo otherwise free exp on Mal or a combat unit to do).

And thus Etzel>Wendell which, again, I know that. That is not the point.

I don't understand why you always have to be such a tool when arguing FE.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

We are not assuming that we are always three turning Chapter 7.

4 turn C7 is the minimum, and it requires Navarre getting lucky with his KE. You can 3 turn C8. Did I mix that up?

Sorry but that's a terrible argument. The argument that Wendell is bad because other staffbots are better is dumb because all it does is just show that they're better than him, not that he's useless. By that logic, Katarina should drop below Wendell. She comes in Chapter 16x with bases barely better than Wendell's and only has a C rank in staves. But who cares about that staff rank when we have Etzel, Malliesia, and Yumina rite? Oh wait. She's still a staffbot so she's still Unique Utility. By applying your "lots of people are better lolz" argument to Wendell and not Katarina (and Wrys too) you are creating a double standard.

You also act as if Wendell can't be used alongside Malliesia or Etzel but that is simply not true. The point is that he is not necessarily better than either of them, the point is that he has utility when used. Ignoring that utility simply because others are better is idiotic. Or do you want Darros/Belf/Leiden to drop back into Free Silvers too while you're at it.

Staffbots' usefulness is determined by two things, staff rank, MOV, and MAG, the first being the most important by far. Since I've already established Mal gets 6 MOV almost exactly when Again comes around (and thus completely outclasses Wendell), we look before then. The only time an extra MOV is really important is for rescue staff...even Mal's MOV is good enough to get off proper heal/mend uses; since even Mal's MOV is sufficient for C6x and C7 (and we WANT her to get the experience over Wendell because of her better MAG growth) and we don't use rescue for C8, Wendell has no unique utility here. C9+ basically has Etzel doing everything Wendell does, but better, and you only have one Rescue staff, and thus only need one 6 MOV guy.

And since H3 demands any and all offense you can muster, to the point where LTC runs need either Rainbow Pots or forced killer crits to work, you can't afford to forgo a combat unit for a purely utility unit that you will never need. There is no chapter to my recollection that requires 4-5 staffbots, so being the 4th or 5th best staffbot is like not even being a staffbot at all. Darros actually has nice parameters when recruited and at least somecombat potential, even with H3 (65% STR growth, 50% SPD growth, and axe rank in a game starved for it says what?); he has nothing to do with this. I've no opinion on Belf/Leiden.

And thus Etzel>Wendell which, again, I know that. That is not the point.

No, that IS the point. This is H3, not "happy-joyful-funtime". You better bring something to the table to justify being used. EVERYTHING that Wendell could claim to bring, Etzel brings better. Etzel makes Wendell's utility obsolete.

I don't understand why you always have to be such a tool when arguing FE.

I'm not a tool. The point of a debate is to...debate. I specifically refrain from personal insults and the ilk during these things, since I try not to be a douche.

EDIT: True, it does say that. But Sheema is required to recruit Samson, and she's in the "Free Silvers" list, so I don't think recruiting a unit quilifies as "unique utility". Thoron is a great tome, though, and saves uses on Aura for Linde, so Wendell is at least fielded for one chapter.

EDIT2: Isn't Katarina in there for being a semi-reliable Gharnef killer, which is required for the true ending? Otherwise, you're at the mercy of the growths of Mal and Linde (if you even train her, which depends on your view of her...me and SDS like her, dondon doesn't).

Edited January 1, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[LeaderR Elliot]

@ Kngt_Of_Titania. Remember the tier list rules. Every character must be recruited.

And thus Etzel>Wendell which, again, I know that. That is not the point.

It is completely relevant... if someone does your job better you are not unique.

Etzel superior bulk let him go farther than Wendell.

Edit: On a side note, Katarina comes with B Books and C staves as Sage, C and 30 Wexp in both as a Bishop. Also she has 9 Def, access to Nosferatu and Aura. And her initial stats are solved by some lv ups.

Edited January 1, 2012 by LeaderR Elliot

[Dark Sage]

4 turn C7 is the minimum, and it requires Navarre getting lucky with his KE. You can 3 turn C8. Did I mix that up?

Yes but it doesn't matter. The three turn with C8 requires an MU with the following parameters: My Unit 07.15 Dracoknight 39 24 03 19 22 16 20 04 B Axes, D Lances

SDS also noted the strategy was very tight, so it's not always good to assume it's happening.

Staffbots' usefulness is determined by two things, staff rank, MOV, and MAG, the first being the most important by far. Since I've already established Mal gets 6 MOV almost exactly when Again comes around (and thus completely outclasses Wendell), we look before then. The only time an extra MOV is really important is for rescue staff...even Mal's MOV is good enough to get off proper heal/mend uses; since even Mal's MOV is sufficient for C6x and C7 (and we WANT her to get the experience over Wendell because of her better MAG growth) and we don't use rescue for C8, Wendell has no unique utility here. C9+ basically has Etzel doing everything Wendell does, but better, and you only have one Rescue staff, and thus only need one 6 MOV guy.

So do you want Wrys, Merric, and Katarina down? I mean you endlessly bitch about Wendell not pulling his weight before Chapter 9 and how he sucks because Etzel, Yumina, and Malliesia are better, but that's nothing that cannot be said about either of the three I just mentioned. Especially with Katarina who is in a much worse position than Wendell since she joins later, has bases barely better than his, and has no access to Excalibur.

And since H3 demands any and all offense you can muster, to the point where LTC runs need either Rainbow Pots or forced killer crits to work, you can't afford to forgo a combat unit for a purely utility unit that you will never need. There is no chapter to my recollection that requires 4-5 staffbots, so being the 4th or 5th best staffbot is like not even being a staffbot at all. Darros actually has nice parameters when recruited and at least somecombat potential, even with H3 (65% STR growth, 50% SPD growth, and axe rank in a game starved for it says what?); he has nothing to do with this. I've no opinion on Belf/Leiden.

Darros is decent as a Swordmaster with shards+Wyrmslayer. That much is true, but he is certainly not your best combat unit. Why should I devote a unit slot to him when I can devote a slot to someone better like Paola or Sheeda or the other good combat units I have at my disposal? He is therefore useless because they are better than him.

This argument is absurd as you know but that is exactly the argument you are making with Wendell. A better example than Darros would be Barst/Navarre/Cain/Roger who need to be built up before they stop being losers.

No, that IS the point. This is H3, not "happy-joyful-funtime". You better bring something to the table to justify being used. EVERYTHING that Wendell could claim to bring, Etzel brings better. Etzel makes Wendell's utility obsolete.

I am familiar with Lunatic you know. I don't need to be talked down like a child.

In any case, even if you don't agree with Wendell going to Unique Utility, he is still deserving a position higher than the bottom of low. His main selling points are that he requires no resources to be useful, he can perform all the functions Merric can with a better staff rank to boot, and when he stops being useful, he can just go staffbot. He is not some trash like Bord who is only useful for one chapter (and isn't even all that great since in that chapter, he can get critblicked forcing a reset). It is possible for him to be used alongside a mage and Malliesia/Yumina/Etzel and while he is worse than them, he is still useful when he's used. There are staffbots in Unique Utility tier that have the problems of being worse than Etzel/Malliesia/Yumina but they still manage to stay where they are instead of plummeting to Low tier. Wendell is in a similar position to them, except he has Excalibur utility with him.

EDIT2: Isn't Katarina in there for being a semi-reliable Gharnef killer, which is required for the true ending? Otherwise, you're at the mercy of the growths of Mal and Linde (if you even train her, which depends on your view of her...me and SDS like her, dondon doesn't).

Katarina is terrible at killing Gharnef because she needs at least 20 AS before Rainbow Potion to survive a round and also requires a Pure Water+Talisman. The 20 AS might be manageable enough but keep in mind she has 12 base magic with a 40% growth. Gharnef has capped resistance. Assuming she gets to level 14, she has 14.8 mag and 19.9 speed which I will round up to 15 mag and 20 speed. With Rainbow Potion, that's 17 Mag and 20 speed. With Starlight, she has around 36 attack vs Gharnef's 60 HP and 25 Res. That's a 6RKO not counting throne healing and she gets 2HKO'd in return.

I'm still going to attempt using her as a Gharnef killer for my Lunatic run but she's not good at it.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Gafgarion

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Yes but it doesn't matter. The three turn with C8 requires an MU with the following parameters: My Unit 07.15 Dracoknight 39 24 03 19 22 16 20 04 B Axes, D Lances

SDS also noted the strategy was very tight, so it's not always good to assume it's happening.

You can (and I have) do 3-turn C8 without promoting a single unit (obviously Sirius and Minerva are already promoted), without rainbow potion, and with Archer!MU (no reclassing), while having time to grab the Arms Scroll from the general. The only reason why it's "tight" is because of movement reasons, not combat ones; if you send Marth to the villlage and rescue, you literally have to block one of the tiles for Marth to be rescued properly.

Well, wait...technically you need Wendell for this one (I think...maybe Mal can do it?), now that I think back (only if you get Bantu) for a 3 turn clear; I don't know how I forgot that. So he has that utility if you're doing a LTC AND everybody is promoted run.

So do you want Wrys, Merric, and Katarina down? I mean you endlessly bitch about Wendell not pulling his weight before Chapter 9 and how he sucks because Etzel, Yumina, and Malliesia are better, but that's nothing that cannot be said about either of the three I just mentioned. Especially with Katarina who is in a much worse position than Wendell since she joins later, has bases barely better than his, and has no access to Excalibur.

Wrys has prologue. You kind of need him for LTC there.

Merric has combat and an opportunity to train on C11, right after you get him. Plus level 10 isn't that bad for C10.

Katarina, like I said, has the backup thing if Linde/Mal/Merric (whoever you trained of the three) get shitty growths. As mediocre as she might be, it's better than not beating the game based on random chance. We already face enough uncertainty as it is with Marth.

Darros is decent as a Swordmaster with shards+Wyrmslayer. That much is true, but he is certainly not your best combat unit. Why should I devote a unit slot to him when I can devote a slot to someone better like Paola or Sheeda or the other good combat units I have at my disposal? He is therefore useless because they are better than him.

This argument is absurd as you know but that is exactly the argument you are making with Wendell. A better example than Darros would be Barst/Navarre/Cain/Roger who need to be built up before they stop being losers.

Darros has good axe rank, which is a rarity, and he has the option to go SM for auto-C swords when you don't need axes. But the problem with your comparison is that you have far more combat slots open than staffbot slots. If Darros is my 4th or 5th best combat unit, and I have like 6-7 combat slots, fine. But if Wendell is my 4th or 5th best staffbot and I only have 2-3 staffbot slots, that's not so fine.

I am familiar with Lunatic you know. I don't need to be talked down like a child.

I wasn't talking down to you. I was trying to make a point that H3 is very hard on unit selection (hence why we have a large "Free Silvers" tier). Is Wendell's staffbot utility bad? No. Is it good enough to qualify for unique utility? Imo, also no.

In any case, even if you don't agree with Wendell going to Unique Utility, he is still deserving a position higher than the bottom of low. His main selling points are that he requires no resources to be useful, he can perform all the functions Merric can with a better staff rank to boot, and when he stops being useful, he can just go staffbot. He is not some trash like Bord who is only useful for one chapter (and isn't even all that great since in that chapter, he can get critblicked forcing a reset). It is possible for him to be used alongside a mage and Malliesia/Yumina/Etzel and while he is worse than them, he is still useful when he's used. There are staffbots in Unique Utility tier that have the problems of being worse than Etzel/Malliesia/Yumina but they still manage to stay where they are instead of plummeting to Low tier. Wendell is in a similar position to them, except he has Excalibur utility with him.

Merric doesn't fill quite the same role as Wendell. He (for one) is useful in P-5, P-6, P-7, and P-8 (esp. in P-8) and he has a fighting chance at being useful in the main story. And I wouldn't agree with staffbots worse than Mal/Yumina/Etzel being in Unique Utility, if that's the only reason that they're there.

Katarina is terrible at killing Gharnef because she needs at least 20 AS before Rainbow Potion to survive a round and also requires a Pure Water+Talisman. The 20 AS might be manageable enough but keep in mind she has 12 base magic with a 40% growth. Gharnef has capped resistance. Assuming she gets to level 14, she has 14.8 mag and 19.9 speed which I will round up to 15 mag and 20 speed. With Rainbow Potion, that's 17 Mag and 20 speed. With Starlight, she has around 36 attack vs Gharnef's 60 HP and 25 Res. That's a 6RKO not counting throne healing and she gets 2HKO'd in return.

She's there as a back-up. In terms of sheer effectiveness, Linde isn't too much better (or, well, anybody except Mage/Sage!Mal or Mage/Sage!MU isn't much better, but raising Mal as Mage/Sage is rare indeed), rocking 18 mag/25 speed with rainbow pot. The extra SPD doesn't matter since Gharnef has 23 SPD (based on the fact you said Kat needs 20 SPD not to be doubled) and Linde won't be able to double (I don't think...rainbow doesn't exceed caps, and since SoS is stuck on Marth...am I mising something here?), so she'd only have...what...37 atk? Just enough to push into 5RKO range before throne healing is taken into account.

However, we're not taking spirit dust into account here. There are 3 spirit dusts (I know you can get it in C11 LTC, you could in C13 with a thief use, if that's even needed, and it drops from an enemy in C19) you get without buying, and they SHOULD all go to your Gharnef killer (wouldn't you agree?). That brings Linde to 24 MAG/25 SPD and 43 ATK, which is 4RKO range before throne healing. Assuming you keep her healed up so they have 2 rounds per turn, she barely kills Gharnef on turn 2 enemy phase.

Turn 1 PP: Gharnef - 42 HP

Turn 1 EP: Gharnef - 24 HP

Turn 2 Start: Gharnef - 36 HP

Turn 2 PP: Gharnef - 18 HP

Turn 2 EP: Gharnef - 0 HP

So, technically, Katarina won't kill until turn 3 PP, but this doesn't even lead to a turn difference for LTC, since Marth would be able to cap on the same turn (I think).

Let's take this further. We also have up to 3 more spirit dusts available for sale, bringing Linde to 30 MAG/25 SPD and 49 ATK, doing 24 damage a round to Gharnef.

Turn 1 PP: Gharnef - 36 HP

Turn 1 EP: Gharnef - 12 HP

Turn 2 Start: Gharnef - 24 HP

Turn 2 PP: Gharnef - 0 HP

So, actually, if Linde is fed Spirit Dusts to cap, she will save one turn over her 24 MAG. Katarina can't do this if she's exactly average for 20/14; she'll need to be just 1 MAG above average for that level or be 20/16 to replicate it, which can be easily done with 1 level of forcing or just by luck. So in terms of not being a good Gharnef killer, she seems fine for it; she loses 1 turn at most from Linde, and that can be mitigated by being just 1 MAG over average.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[grandjackal]

Why the hell are we assuming staffers need to fight in order to be measured? Wendell comes reletively early and has a good base staff rank. Therefore, unique utility.

Also, how in the blazing hell is Katarina gaining 8 levels in 6 chapters?

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Why the hell are we assuming staffers need to fight in order to be measured? Wendell comes reletively early and has a good base staff rank. Therefore, unique utility.

Wait, what? Nobody said staff users have to fight to be measured, anywhere. I'm saying staffbot effectiveness should be based off of staff level and whether investing in that character would detriment you in some way. With Yumina and Mal, there's one only situation where you would use Wendell (before Etzel completely relaces him)....C8 LTC H3 100% Recruiting Run; you need his 1 extra move for Marth to reach the throne. HOWEVER, since rescue is E rank, Sage!Arran can do this just as well. Other than Ellerean, Wendell could cease to exist and you wouldn't be hindered in any way, even on LTC runs; this is not good when you're claiming "Unique Utility".

Every time you could have Wendell use a staff (with the exception of replacing him with Arran in C8), you could have had Mal/Yumina use it instead (for EXP) and be better off because they both have potential to have more MAG than Wendell later in the game and thus heal for more with physic/heal/mend. It also has them hitting B/A staves sooner (and since both have a higher base staff rank than Wendell, they're both better suited to staffbotting anyways).

Also, how in the blazing hell is Katarina gaining 8 levels in 6 chapters?

Well, if you need Katarina to defeat Gharnef simply because Mal isn't working out too well stat-wise, and Kat needs the levels to not be doubled, I'm sure you'll find a way (plus, it's like 133 experience per CHAPTER...and base training exists...you make it sound like some impossible achievement). Or, barring her reaching the level needed to do so, you can feed her a speedwing (and probably spirit dusts). He simply used it b/c that's the level needed for Kat to survive a round with Gharnef.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Here's the main thing that I'm going to say.

Anything Wendell can do as a random staffer can actually be done by ANY other promoted unit at that time, and as long as it doesn't explicitly require 6 Movement, it can be done by any unit at all. I actually prefer to use my combat units reclassed to Cleric/Bishop for superfluous Rescue uses, mainly because Rescue is 50 EXP for free, and that's neat for someone like Linde (who I used as my Rescue Staff user in 6x) or Luke (who I have used as an extra Rescue user in Chapter 7). Wendell actually brings nothing to the team that you already don't have. In Chapter 9, you get Etzel, and in Chapter 10, Wendell is tied up as a Dracoknight for the 2-turn to recruit Ellerean. Then chapter 11 happens, and you're confronted with Flying Dragons. They have 44 HP / 2 Res, so you need 7 Mag to OHKO with Excalibur. Wendell does have that, but these dragons also have 32-33 Atk, and that OHKOs even Sorceror!Wendell. Etzel, on the other hand, is sitting at a comfortable 30 HP / 9 Def, easily avoiding the OHKO. So essentially, Wendell adds nothing to the team until Etzel shows up, at which point Etzel outclasses him entirely by being capable of OHKOing Flying Dragons while rushing the gate for Rescue.

[Wen Yang]

C11 dragons have 3 Res IIRC, so you need 8 Mag to OHKO them.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It's 2-3, though it's not relevant because Sage Wendell has 8 Magic.

[Bluedoom]

Wendell actually brings nothing to the team that you already don't have. In Chapter 9, you get Etzel, and in Chapter 10, Wendell is tied up as a Dracoknight for the 2-turn to recruit Ellerean. Then chapter 11 happens, and you're confronted with Flying Dragons. They have 44 HP / 2 Res, so you need 7 Mag to OHKO with Excalibur. Wendell does have that, but these dragons also have 32-33 Atk, and that OHKOs even Sorceror!Wendell. Etzel, on the other hand, is sitting at a comfortable 30 HP / 9 Def, easily avoiding the OHKO. So essentially, Wendell adds nothing to the team until Etzel shows up, at which point Etzel outclasses him entirely by being capable of OHKOing Flying Dragons while rushing the gate for Rescue.

If Wendell is getting OHKO'd by the dragons, give him a seraph robe. You were interested in giving Linde the Seraph Robe, right? Well let's say wendell gets it. He now functions almost exactly as Etzel does.

Oh yes, Wendell and Etzel will both get doubled by the flying dragons since they have bad AS, so both will likely die. But at least Wendell is closer to not getting doubled(all he needs is a speed wing or a couple of spd procs- if we're willing to use base arena, its not so bad. Still, he has a better chance of avoiding getting doubled than Etzel.) Besides, with seraph robe Wendell has a good amount of HP to avoiding getting OHKO'd, missing by 2 HP. Etzel on the other hand... is in the same boat. 9 DEF is nothing impressive, and even if you DO give Etzel the seraph robe, you get the same result of gettind 2HKO'd.

I do agree Linde benefits A LOT from seraph robe though. But that's besides point- I know she's better than Wendell.

Oh yeah, about that outclassing part. Rickard brings nothing new to the table, Julian outclasses him. Wth is he doing in Unique utility? Wrys too. I'm pretty sure he's not necessary in at least a couple of the prologue chapters( I've done P-6 Ogma without Wrys in Lunatic Reverse, and it took at max 5-6 turns. Actually, I think I took an even lower turncount., perhaps 4. Dont remember now.) And after prologue, every magic user is better than wrys.

If Wendell can't get out of his rut, Katarina certainly can't. If we're using her for just the chapter with Gharnef in it, big deal. We're first either giving her base arena levels(which are costly in the first place, AND you need to actually safe oppurtunities for that. I think the arena in Lunatic would be much harder) or you're giving her speed wings. Wendell benefits from Speedwings too. Oh yeah, he has loads of chapters to improve his staf and weapon ranks. He'll generally have better stats than base Katarina if used. Katarina needs lots of resources to function in like, 1 chapter for one specific battle. Giving those resources to wendel would benefit him greatly for more than one chapter. Katarina's bases on their own look like they're RNG screwed, forget about getting your magic users RNG screwed. I'd most certainly want to train Linde, Merric, Yumina, heck EVEN ELLEREAN over Katarina.

Oh and more about the outclassing part. Malliesia outclasses Yumina in growths and utility. What is she doing in Unique Utility? Aum Staff? Lol. It has only one use and can only be used in endgame, not to mention there are many other princesses who can do what Yumina does with the Aum staff. Ok, suppose you want to use Yumina. Yumina, Etzel, Malliesia, and many more outclass Katarina. Why have her in Unique Utility?

EDIT: About my earler posts of bringing Bord up. Scrap that. I don't really think that's right anymore. I do however think Ogma needs a lift.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Marth

[grandjackal]

If Wendell is getting OHKO'd by the dragons, give him a seraph robe. You were interested in giving Linde the Seraph Robe, right? Well let's say wendell gets it. He now functions almost exactly as Etzel does.

We give Linde a robe as it gives us something we don't normally have: a Rezire tank, and just a mage who can drop an Aura Bomb on an enemy phase for early on when dealing with dracos. Giving Wendell something to make him into a character who already exists is stupid.

Oh yes, Wendell and Etzel will both get doubled by the flying dragons since they have bad AS, so both will likely die. But at least Wendell is closer to not getting doubled(all he needs is a speed wing or a couple of spd procs- if we're willing to use base arena, its not so bad. Still, he has a better chance of avoiding getting doubled than Etzel.) Besides, with seraph robe Wendell has a good amount of HP to avoiding getting OHKO'd, missing by 2 HP. Etzel on the other hand... is in the same boat. 9 DEF is nothing impressive, and even if you DO give Etzel the seraph robe, you get the same result of gettind 2HKO'd.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. Now tell me why I should care about anything you just said in this paragraph here when one requires a resource while the other doesn't? Why waste resources like this when you don't need to?

I do agree Linde benefits A LOT from seraph robe though. But that's besides point- I know she's better than Wendell.

I know, why did you bring it up?

Oh yeah, about that outclassing part. Rickard brings nothing new to the table, Julian outclasses him. Wth is he doing in Unique utility? Wrys too. I'm pretty sure he's not necessary in at least a couple of the prologue chapters( I've done P-6 Ogma without Wrys in Lunatic Reverse, and it took at max 5-6 turns. Actually, I think I took an even lower turncount., perhaps 4. Dont remember now.) And after prologue, every magic user is better than wrys.

Well one Ogma's can be 3 turned, but that is irrelevent. Wrys's necessary for P-5 and P-8, and is a second staffer for chapter 4 before you have Yumina officially on your team.

If Wendell can't get out of his rut, Katarina certainly can't. If we're using her for just the chapter with Gharnef in it, big deal. We're first either giving her base arena levels(which are costly in the first place, AND you need to actually safe oppurtunities for that. I think the arena in Lunatic would be much harder) or you're giving her speed wings. Wendell benefits from Speedwings too. Oh yeah, he has loads of chapters to improve his staf and weapon ranks. He'll generally have better stats than base Katarina if used. Katarina needs lots of resources to function in like, 1 chapter for one specific battle. Giving those resources to wendel would benefit him greatly for more than one chapter. Katarina's bases on their own look like they're RNG screwed, forget about getting your magic users RNG screwed. I'd most certainly want to train Linde, Merric, Yumina, heck EVEN ELLEREAN over Katarina.

Katarina as a Bishop is halfway to B rank, which is Again Staff rank, and automatically has Libro regardless, along with Unlock. More Again uses never hurts lategame. No one is arguing her as a fighter against Gharnef, except or Knight of Titania.

Oh and more about the outclassing part. Malliesia outclasses Yumina in growths and utility. What is she doing in Unique Utility? Aum Staff? Lol. It has only one use and can only be used in endgame, not to mention there are many other princesses who can do what Yumina does with the Aum staff. Ok, suppose you want to use Yumina. Yumina, Etzel, Malliesia, and many more outclass Katarina. Why have her in Unique Utility?

C rank staffs automatically gives her access to Libro, and more than one staffer never hurts. When will people learn that it's not worth really arguing staffers?

EDIT: About my earler posts of bringing Bord up. Scrap that. I don't really think that's right anymore. I do however think Ogma needs a lift.

I didn't even remember anything about Bord. As for Ogma...Not...sure...I wanna say yes, but...umm..Hmmm...Any suggestions as to why?

[Dark Sage]

You can (and I have) do 3-turn C8 without promoting a single unit (obviously Sirius and Minerva are already promoted), without rainbow potion, and with Archer!MU (no reclassing), while having time to grab the Arms Scroll from the general. The only reason why it's "tight" is because of movement reasons, not combat ones; if you send Marth to the villlage and rescue, you literally have to block one of the tiles for Marth to be rescued properly.

Well, wait...technically you need Wendell for this one (I think...maybe Mal can do it?), now that I think back (only if you get Bantu) for a 3 turn clear; I don't know how I forgot that. So he has that utility if you're doing a LTC AND everybody is promoted run.

Where the hell did you get "everybody is promoted" from that?

Wrys has prologue. You kind of need him for LTC there.

Prologue isn't even counted on this list. I know because I saw SDS make a post a rant here where he said it doesn't count because it's meant to make people go "wow archers rape pegasus knights" or something of the sort.

Merric has combat and an opportunity to train on C11, right after you get him. Plus level 10 isn't that bad for C10.

Merric is a scrub who requires a Master Seal to promote and loses to Wendell in staff utility. He is made even more redundant by Etzel because not only is he outclassed in the combat area but also in the staffing area. I guess he can be made into a decent Gharnef killer later though.

Katarina, like I said, has the backup thing if Linde/Mal/Merric (whoever you trained of the three) get shitty growths. As mediocre as she might be, it's better than not beating the game based on random chance. We already face enough uncertainty as it is with Marth.

Or we could use Etzel if we're that worried about being RNG screwed. So she's outclassed by him in that area as well. But of course of it's ok for her to get outclassed by Etzel at everything but somehow it's not for Wendell.

Darros has good axe rank, which is a rarity, and he has the option to go SM for auto-C swords when you don't need axes. But the problem with your comparison is that you have far more combat slots open than staffbot slots. If Darros is my 4th or 5th best combat unit, and I have like 6-7 combat slots, fine. But if Wendell is my 4th or 5th best staffbot and I only have 2-3 staffbot slots, that's not so fine.

Darros was a bad example. But the point doesn't change. If I have 6-7 combat slots available, I fill them with MU, Catria, Paola, Sheeda, Sirius, Luke, and Arran plus a mage I'm raising. The rest of them would require kicking out one of these guys so I can raise their scrubby ass. Naturally I would never deploy them. But because we are attempting to tier scrubs like Barst/Roger/Cain/etc. we assume they get a spot. Denying the same to Wendell is a double standard.

I wasn't talking down to you. I was trying to make a point that H3 is very hard on unit selection (hence why we have a large "Free Silvers" tier). Is Wendell's staffbot utility bad? No. Is it good enough to qualify for unique utility? Imo, also no.

Merric doesn't fill quite the same role as Wendell. He (for one) is useful in P-5, P-6, P-7, and P-8 (esp. in P-8) and he has a fighting chance at being useful in the main story. And I wouldn't agree with staffbots worse than Mal/Yumina/Etzel being in Unique Utility, if that's the only reason that they're there.

She's there as a back-up. In terms of sheer effectiveness, Linde isn't too much better (or, well, anybody except Mage/Sage!Mal or Mage/Sage!MU isn't much better, but raising Mal as Mage/Sage is rare indeed), rocking 18 mag/25 speed with rainbow pot. The extra SPD doesn't matter since Gharnef has 23 SPD (based on the fact you said Kat needs 20 SPD not to be doubled) and Linde won't be able to double (I don't think...rainbow doesn't exceed caps, and since SoS is stuck on Marth...am I mising something here?), so she'd only have...what...37 atk? Just enough to push into 5RKO range before throne healing is taken into account.

Gharnef actually has his speed capped. I said 20 speed because Rainbow Potion can raise a unit's to 22 speed, preventing Gharnef from doubling.

In addition, it's a lot harder to get kills into Katarina than you think. First of all she's ORKO'd by everything on her maps thanks to her speed base of 15, which stopped flying back in the dragon valley maps so she'll need to staffbot to get experience (though she can provide some nice chip with Aura should the need arise). Her 75% speed growth is awesome, but it's still not a large enough growth to prevent her from being doubled by the faster stuff like Heros, Swordmasters, Wyverns, etc. She also really can't afford to miss a speed proc once or she'll be destroyed by Gharnef. She has a really tight time frame to get 8 levels in 6 chapters and a tight stat requirement to get to Gharnef killing status. Using the Base Arena could help as could buying a Wing or Dust but we're on a tight budget here.

I mean it's possible she can kill Gharnef but she isn't that good at it without a lot of favoritism. And she can be RNG screwed just as much as any other Gharnef killer can. So the whole backup Gharnef killer thing doesn't really fly.

@Marth: Why the hell would I give Wendell a Robe when I could give him a Rainbow Potion/Star Orb shard? Much more economical way of improving his durability than taking away a valuable resource like a Seraph Robe. Seriously, you're hurting your own argument here.

And just so we're clear, while I'm bitching out Katarina here, I am not saying she should be taken out of Unique Utility. I am merely using her as an example of why Wendell shouldn't be slumming it in Low.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Gafgarion

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

If Wendell is getting OHKO'd by the dragons, give him a seraph robe. You were interested in giving Linde the Seraph Robe, right? Well let's say wendell gets it. He now functions almost exactly as Etzel does.

Oh yes, Wendell and Etzel will both get doubled by the flying dragons since they have bad AS, so both will likely die. But at least Wendell is closer to not getting doubled(all he needs is a speed wing or a couple of spd procs- if we're willing to use base arena, its not so bad. Still, he has a better chance of avoiding getting doubled than Etzel.) Besides, with seraph robe Wendell has a good amount of HP to avoiding getting OHKO'd, missing by 2 HP. Etzel on the other hand... is in the same boat. 9 DEF is nothing impressive, and even if you DO give Etzel the seraph robe, you get the same result of gettind 2HKO'd.

I do agree Linde benefits A LOT from seraph robe though. But that's besides point- I know she's better than Wendell.

Here's the problem. WHY would we possibly give the Seraph Robe to Wendell? They are limited (and not even available by mid-C11 unless you unlocked the stat booster shop, in which case it's 2500G), and we're doing this just so he can do something Etzel can do at base? What do we gain from this? You'd be way way WAY better off giving your robe to Linde (especially if she's going to be your Gharnef killer, like she will be for me) to make sure she can survive a round with Gharnef.

Also, do you remember C11 on H3 (not mocking you, serious question)? The fact that Etzel is doubled is actually irrelevent (oddly enough) simply because he OHKOs on counter with Excalibur (at base), meaning no wyvern will ever attack him twice in a round. And since Etzel never encounters two wyverns in a turn (even when charging through the desert for a 5 turn in LTC), you can always heal him up between wyverns. This means Etzel is better since Wendell possibly never getting doubled by the wyverns is pointless; I actually had Etzel (and his getting doubled by wyverns self) kill a wyvern every turn for the first 3 turns of that 5 turn strat, and he never was in trouble of dying (<3 Mal & Physic & Vulneraries).

Oh yeah, about that outclassing part. Rickard brings nothing new to the table, Julian outclasses him. Wth is he doing in Unique utility? Wrys too. I'm pretty sure he's not necessary in at least a couple of the prologue chapters(I've done P-6 Ogma without Wrys in Lunatic Reverse, and it took at max 5-6 turns. Actually, I think I took an even lower turncount., perhaps 4. Dont remember now.) And after prologue, every magic user is better than wrys.

For Julian v. Rickard, they are both roughly equal in the lens of H3, since they will both be OHKO'd the entire game by just about everything at base (and there's no reason to ever level them...). Julian comes at C3, while Rickard has to wait until C6 (realistically), but the thing is Julian doesn't do ANYTHING but recruit necessary people in that span (one of whom IS Rickard) -- he's only there to make a dash for chests...which don't exist in C3-C5. So every chest Julian can open, Rickard can open; and with both recruited, you might even want to try fielding both in like C13 to try to open every chest (no idea if that'd work, but it'd be interesting for me to try this playthrough). So Rickard, in H3, ends up being Julian who gives you VIP Card on recruitment, which means 3 extra spirit dusts for your Gharnef killer, a stache of killer weapons, which are insane with savestate use, 3 physic staves, 3 DRAGONPIKES, etc. It's not like Etzel v. Wendell, where there's a notable difference in performance.

Healing shaves turns, simple as that. Nobody else can heal (since there's no reclassing), so Wrys saves you a fair number of turns, meaning he's both "unique" and has "utility" and thus belongs in the "Unique Utility" tier, as crap as he may be.

If Wendell can't get out of his rut, Katarina certainly can't. If we're using her for just the chapter with Gharnef in it, big deal. We're first either giving her base arena levels(which are costly in the first place, AND you need to actually safe oppurtunities for that. I think the arena in Lunatic would be much harder) or you're giving her speed wings. Wendell benefits from Speedwings too. Oh yeah, he has loads of chapters to improve his staf and weapon ranks. He'll generally have better stats than base Katarina if used. Katarina needs lots of resources to function in like, 1 chapter for one specific battle. Giving those resources to wendel would benefit him greatly for more than one chapter. Katarina's bases on their own look like they're RNG screwed, forget about getting your magic users RNG screwed. I'd most certainly want to train Linde, Merric, Yumina, heck EVEN ELLEREAN over Katarina.

...Uh...well, let me show you.

?/20 Wendell:

31 HP (LOL)

11 MAG

10 SKL

17 SPD

11 LUK

8 DEF

9 RES

??/7 (Base) Katarina:

34 HP

12 MAG

15 SKL

15 SPD

6 LUK

9 DEF

7 RES

So MAX Wendell beats BASE Katarina by 2 SPD, 5 LUK, 2 RES, and loses everything else. Oh yeah, Katarina has a 75% SPD growth, 70% LUK growth, and 40% RES growth, so she'll beat him in those areas too (except LUK) by Gharnef. Max level Wendell is doubled and ORKO'd by Gharnef at max level unless you feed him 2 (TWO) Speedwings, and then does so little damage without spirit dust pumping that he can't even outdamage throne healing (LMFAO). Katarina ends up notably worse than a trained Linde at SPD (and roughly equal in MAG) by Gharnef, but the funny thing is that this doesn't matter as long as Katarina is at least ??/11 with a Speedwing or ??/13 without, since that's all she needs not to be doubled (and Linde can't double Gharnef). And since Katarina only needs 4-6 levels total to accomplish this, there's a much smaller chance of being screwed than with other possible candidates of Gharnef killer (I remember Lightli bitching about how his Linde/Yumina didn't gain a single point of MAG past base by 20/-- ).

Also, this one "random battle" gives us Falchion, which is practically required to beat Medeus and win the game. Can you even beat Gharnef's chapter without killing Gharnef? I swore he blocked the way. By this logic, we can say we shouldn't pump any speedwings/energy drops into Marth because Medeus is "just a battle". Gharnef and Medeus are the game's two final bosses (the big baddies right from the get-go), and require insane statistics to beat in H3.

Random note: Katarina at ??/20 is actually roughly equal statistically to a 20/20 Linde.

Oh and more about the outclassing part. Malliesia outclasses Yumina in growths and utility. What is she doing in Unique Utility? Aum Staff? Lol. It has only one use and can only be used in endgame, not to mention there are many other princesses who can do what Yumina does with the Aum staff. Ok, suppose you want to use Yumina. Yumina, Etzel, Malliesia, and many more outclass Katarina. Why have her in Unique Utility?

Because there are some chapters where 2 staff users are wanted, and Mal and Yumina are the best staffbots in the game (also, couldn't I use Aum to allow my super-beefed Linde/Gharnef killer to get 2 shots for up to 18 damage each on Medeus with Aura? I'm going to try that, see if it saves me a turn). Katarina is in unique utility over growth units for her consistency (as a back-up Gharnef killer) and above Etzel for that task since she has the chance to reach the critical 20 SPD naturally, when speedwings might be in high demand due to MArth absolutely NEEDING 25 SPD and SoS in order to not get ORKO'd by Medeus.

EDIT:

1. I meant "everybody is recruited", not "everybody is promoted". My apologies, it was a typo; the statement should make more sense now.

2. If Prologue doesn't count, throw Wrys off Unique Utility and throw Merric down the tier list. Linde does Merric's job as well as him at the end if you use her, and you don't have to put up with his "LOLIMDOUBLEDATBASE" crap. I'm saying it is possible to raise him, not that it wouldn't be hard and annoying as hell.

3. I'm arguing Katarina for backup Gharnef killer since at least she can hit 20 SPD w/o speedwings (Etzel hits 19 SPD at max level). I wouldn't like to be in the position where I'd have to do that (since raising Kat to that point, as you said, wouldn't be easy), but I'd hate "OLOL, my Gharnef killer & Mal got MAG cursed, let's restart the run!" Kat's bases are high enough you'd have to be really unlucky for her not to be fit to face Gharnef provided you give her the levels; fewer levels = lower chance of RNG screwage, because your stat variability is lower. You're giving her favoritism, true, but you're doing it so you can beat the game.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Bluedoom]

@Marth: Why the hell would I give Wendell a Robe when I could give him a Rainbow Potion/Star Orb shard? Much more economical way of improving his durability than taking away a valuable resource like a Seraph Robe. Seriously, you're hurting your own argument here.

And just so we're clear, while I'm bitching out Katarina here, I am not saying she should be taken out of Unique Utility. I am merely using her as an example of why Wendell shouldn't be slumming it in Low.

Neither am I, I'm basically supporting you here. As for the Seraph robe thing, Wendell actually needs that Seraph Robe to survive. Even Rainbow potion doesn't helpe him I think( unless it gives +2 to HP too? I dont exactly have Wifi access)

Its just I find the thing for against Gharnef pointless. You can use any other magic user bar prepromotes and Wrys and they'll do well. Even Cecil reclassed would do fine with such growths.

And I wasn't being serious about stuff when I was posting about the superior staffbot arguement.Same thing with Rickard or Julian, although Julian is certainly superior and arena abuse MIGHT help his durability. I mean,its nice to have two staffbots, yes. But Wendell does about as much as Etzel does but with worser bases and growths. I dont see why he shouldn't be in unique utility. Because if he can't make it, I don't see why Wrys makes it to unique utility when he's important in like only two prologue chapters.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Wendell is not getting any resources when Etzel does the exact same thing without resources.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Neither am I, I'm basically supporting you here. As for the Seraph robe thing, Wendell actually needs that Seraph Robe to survive. Even Rainbow potion doesn't helpe him I think( unless it gives +2 to HP too? I dont exactly have Wifi access)

No, he's saying that it's stupid to use the Angelic Robe with Wendell when you can just do it with Etzel OR use a combination of Rainbow Potion/Shards on Wendell. But I argue that Etzel dosn't need help and thus you can save a Rainbow Potion use and put shards on more useful units that chapter by just not fielding Wendell at all.

Its just I find the thing for against Gharnef pointless. You can use any other magic user bar prepromotes and Wrys and they'll do well. Even Cecil reclassed would do fine with such growths.

Average Gharnef Killer X (Linde/Merric/Ellerean/Mal) might be able to kill him, but what if they're cursed (Linde if she's MAG cursed, Merric if he's either MAG or SPD cursed)? Why give up a run when you can pick up Katarina (you'll know if your Gharnef killer is unsalvagable by the time she joins) and use her as a staffbot/chip to get her enough levels to kill him? She's not optimal, but her high base stats/level make her RNG-proof, which is really nice when growths don't go your way. That's what I'm arguing -- that she has that ON TOP OF her tome/staff rank.

Wendell does about as much as Etzel does but with worser bases and growths.

Ding, ding, ding! Etzel competes for the same role (the 6 MOV rescue user) that Wendell does but actually has good enough stats to have combat use in applicable chapters without wasting valuable resources. Wendell is made useless because of Etzel's existence; if Etzel didn't exist, Wendell would have a slot in "unique utility", but Etzel obviously DOES exist, so it's meaningless conjecture.

Because if he can't make it, I don't see why Wrys makes it to unique utility when he's important in like only two prologue chapters.

Alright. Etzel or Sage!Arran (C8) can do what Wendell does in every chapter that Wendell is available. Who can I replace Wrys with in prologue and still have the healing I need? If you can name ONE other character, I'll concede my argument to keep him in unique utility.

[Bluedoom]

While I would question why you'd actualy make Arran a Sage, I shall concede this my arguement. SDS had mentioned earlier in one of his posts that you couldnt really tier staff users, hene unique utility. Guess Wendell doesn't seem to make. He still deserves to go higher though. Definetly more worth it than someone like Bord. xD

And now, I shall start another debate: I think Ogma should go up. No not above Navarre or someone, but actually, Upper Mid. Yes Upper Mid. I truly believe he's better than the lot stuck with him in Lower Mid.

First off prologue. So maybe Prologue utility isn't counted in this list, but he's most likely getting a lvl or two. I'd say two lvls, since its quite easy to give him him two lvls than units like Luke, Rody and Ryan, who're still struggling with their combat at this point( although Ryan has it the easier way with ranged attack.)

Ogma at lvl 9 as Merc- 29 HP. 9.2 Str, 15.1 Skl, 13.5 Spd, 6.2 Luck, 8.5 Def, 0.05 Res.

You can rig P-7 so he gets a Spd proc, which shouldn't be too much of a problem. Doing so allows him to double a lot of enemies when he returns in the main story. He's doing much better than someone like Cain in prologue offensively, although defensively he's ok. He has a prologue chapter before Cain and comes earlier than Cain in the main story. I think that should be enough to be placed above Cain.

Now I'm assuming he gets a lvl up in Chapter 4 or at least is on the verge of getting one, considering he can do quite a lot against the bandits. Well he's in the same boat as every character except General Arran in getting 2HKO'd, but he's a major offensive powerhouse at this point. He's pretty good against the boss, although Sirius, Palla, Catria could probably do better( the latter two needing the lady sword of course)

If he's on the verge of going to lvl 10, a base arena battle could remedy that. I think its fair enough, not like we're wasting any huge resource. Lvl 10 Ogma, reclassed to Myrmidon has 28 HP, 10 Str, 17 AS and 8 Def. That is without factoring Rainbow potion, which gives him 12 Str, 19 AS and 10 Def. That's pretty good for a Myrmidon. Perhaps reclassing him to Merc would be good since he retains the crucial 17 AS( which doubles everything except the Sniper and the Dracoknights.) and gets better offensive and defensive parameters. Now he has 14 Str, 17 AS and 11 Def. I'd say this is much better, because he's still not ORKOing the promoted units just yet. With a Steel Sword forge(and it only needs + 1 MT) he'll start ORKOing the Cavaliers, unless they have 35 HP AND 7 Def. You could give him the Taurus Orb to boost that too. This also makes him do quite the damage to the ballistae- the Boss and the generic. That's pretty nice considering units like Luke, Rody and Cecil are only picking up now. Linde can't really go near the ballista and the only other units which rival this would be Lady Sword Cav Catria/Palla and Sirius. He can also use the armourslayer to take out the knights at the bridge. I'd say those are huge contributions for what little resources we did give him( 3 lvls and a +1 MT forge.) It makes hims usable for almost any portion of the map, especially if you reclass him to myrmidon( then you'll need a + 3 MT forge, but he'll double everyone on the map.)

Chapter 6 is an armourknight fest, and that means more armourslayer shenanigans. Now if Luke has caught up by now, you'll probably want him to use the armourslayer, unless you've been training him as a pirate, that'd give him hammer access. Whatever the case, Ogma can kick most of the enemies with the armourslayer, and if Luke's using the armourslayer, Ogma can still rely on that Steel Sword forge you did last chapter. If it got + 3 MT, he's gonna be doing solid damage, and usually takes out more than have of the AK's HP. Generals too get damaged well. The only enemies Ogma isn't doubling are the Sniper and the Hero, which don't double him anyways. He's also one of the best units to damage Lang. SM!Sirius has that same utility, but he may have lower str, depending on how you're Ogma turned out. Marth's rapier still does ass damage. Your other best bets would be a trained Luke or Linde. And lolBord, if you ever got lucky.

Now If Ogma has a fair share of kills in Chapter 5 and 6, he should probably be lvl 12 by now. I wonder if that's generous or I'm underestimating that. :| He could probably be thirteen if he killed both the bosses and another promoted unit. Yeah, 13's probably possible, but I might be stretching it.

Chapter 6x is a 1 turn free exp chapter. You use Ogma, he'll get exp. Really, nothing more than that.

Chapter 7 he doesn't really have much of a use... or does he? You could possibly reclass him to Cavalier if he has a good AS. Probably not, but this chapter is mainly for the fliers. If he gets lucky, he could get a kill here and there. Otherwise he's obsolete.

Lets compare Ogma with the two new units who're in the same tier as he's in:

Lvl 12 Ogma Absolute stats: 14HP, 7 Str, 9 Skl, 7 Spd, 10 Luck, 5 Def, 0 Res

Lv 8 Frey Absolute bases: 8HP, 6 Str, 5 Skl, 4 Spd, 6 Luck, 3 Def, 0 Res

Lv 8 Navarre Absolute Bases: 7 HP, 6 Str, 7 Skl, 5 Spd, 7 Luck, 4 Def

Quite clearly Ogma is beating them in stats. Even if you brought him about two lvls down, he'd have a point lead over both of them in almost every stat or he'd be equal to them. He's alsp probably having B swords by now and so he's offensively much better than both of them. He makes better use of Navarre's and Samto's killing dges at this point. Also he has more exp over Cain in his joining chapter, simply because of armourslayer shenanigans. He cant take out at least one general, although by himself would be another question. Maybe stack him with orbs to do that. In chapter eight Ogma can double the Paladins as a Myrmidon with the help of the RP. That's much better than whatever Cain's doing. Roger is no competition at this point since he needs to be recruited. With healing, Ogma can take down a general, and probably take down another weakened one, or he can weaken them for your other units to kill. Navarre can do what Ogma does, but if you've trained Ogma, he's probably better than him. Besides, I dont think Navarre really matches Ogma's utility in Chapters 4,5 and 6.

Against Tiki? You get her late and its a pain to train her, and I'd be willing to say she should drop down. But I'm not sure how useful she can be against the other dragons, because even though her bases are bad, her growths are awesome and exp gain is great. Dunno.

Also a comparison of lvl 10/5 Ogma with Leiden and Belf:

10/5 Ogma as SM: 38HP, 14 Str, 20 Skl, 21 AS, 9 Luck, 11 Def, 4 Res

15/1 Belf as SM: 39 HP, 14 Str, 24 Skl, 19 AS, 8 Luck, 11 Def, 3 Res

15/1 Leiden as SM: 38 HP, 12 Str, 23 Skl, 21 AS, 10 Luck, 10 Def, 4 Res.

Ogma beats Leiden in Raw power and Durability. They both double dragons but Ogma hits harder and takes hits slightly better. Ogma compared to Belf is... faster than Belf, and he hits harder than Belf because of A swords. Belf has a point higher HP, although Ogma does have a resistance point higher( and that's because he kept switiching between Merc and Myrm for growths.) Of course the Res part really deals with luck, so... Their stats differences are pretty minor, but Ogma has Attack power over Leiden and AS over Belf.

10/5 seems too high so maybe 12/3 or 14/1 might work. He's certainly capable of hitting those lvls by the time the Sable Knights arrive and he's not really hampering your progress thanks to RP use.At 12/1 with RP he can double the fire dragons, which is what some of the high tier units are doing. 10/1 Cain can't do that, and Navarre and Frey need some extra lvl ups(and Frey will have lower ATK due to B swords.) Meantime Ogma got those required lvl ups when they didn't exist, and he actually contributed with the armourslayer and a simple forged Steel Sword(and maybe a Taurus robe to boot.) Ogma doesn't really cost much to use other than a lucky spd proc to get going, and his growths are not terrible to really not use him. His contributions when Belf and Leiden don't exist are great, much better than whatever Cain and co do.

What I'm not sure about estimating is how much exp will he actually get? I really think its possible for him to get a great earlygame start with a speed proc, and two lvl ups in prologue don't seem far-fetched. But chapters 4,5,6 determine his overall performance. The more exp he gains, the better he does. And once we go to dragonland he can promote and start doubling, which is nice.

I guess I'm trying to argue him above Belf, or at least Leiden, although is useful contributions make me lean towards the former.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Marth

[-Cynthia-]

If characters are being denied access to Unique Utility based on other characters making them obsolete, doesn't Malicia make Yumina and Katarina redundant as well? She has more availability and Hammerne access with slightly better/equal stats (Yumina does have better Spd, but Malicia caps Spd once it should matter anyway).

Also, the list as is seems to value Prologue utility (Wrys in Unique Utility, Athena not in Free Silvers etc.) If Prologue isn't being counted as part of a unit's performance this should be stated in the OP and there should be some changes overall.