I think I'm biased against prepromotes.

[eclipse]

Welcome to Fire Emblem debating. Your conceptions regarding good units and efficiency need to be revised. If unit A needs resources to mimick unit B, but those resources are useless elsewhere, then that's perfectly fine and efficient.

Not in my books. I have uses for them elsewhere.

It looks like we've got different views of efficiency, so arguing this out will only cause my wrists to hurt.

I'm sorry, but yelling like a little child does not reinforce your point.

I believe the point of this topic was to say something about the potential of prepromotes. I believe I said that there ARE prepromotes with potential, just not those two. I wasn't sure if you got it the first time around. It looks like you have, so I can (hopefully) put that to rest.

Have you seen how many enemies he ORKOs? Or do you not even give him basic Fire tomes because they're too expensive?

Last I checked, the entire game does not wield Javelins.

[Charpig]

Again, who says I care about being efficient?

No one says that, and quite frankly I don't care about being efficient either. But for those who do care about being efficient, Pent is an excellent unit because he comes with an A in both Anima and Staves, not to mention his highly functional base stats. Yes, Erk CAN reach an A in Staves but it takes a long time. Even for non efficient players Pent is a good choice, as even if you do train Erk up to Pent's level, Pent may still be more powerful. And Pent does NOT need Louise or any one else to support him, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have a built in A Support. I would never, ever recommend benching Pent (though I have beaten the game without him).

I have never used Isadora or Louise that much, and I don't consider them to be as good as other units. As I said before, if you don't like them, don't use them. I don't need Louise for ranged attacks, Pent can not only attack at 2 range but at 1 range as well. Louise can't ever attack at 1 range. Most of my other units are capable of using Javelins and/or Hand Axes, they have 20 uses like a Silver Bow but are much less expensive, and they can still one round most enemies. But unless you seriously trained your other archers, Louise will be the only person at the point who can use the Silver Bow. No, you don't have to use it right away, but at least she has access to it. That's better than NOT having access to it, like your other archer units until they get an A in bows.

Isadora can't really do anything that Marcus can't. I find it better to have one very powerful unit countering and killing everything on enemy phase than to have one very powerful unit fighting alongside a weaker unit, as the enemies will go for the weaker unit. Isadora may not be able to defeat enemies as reliably as Marcus, and she has a higher risk of dying. Is Isadora useable? Of course she is. Having high MOV never hurts anyone, and being able to use a wide variety of weapons can make up for low stats. She isn't as good at fighting as most of my other units by that point, though. I actually do use multiple Paladins, but Isadora isn't one of them. In terms of MOV advantages, flying units are better than any Paladin because they don't have any terrain restrictions, and if I already have two or more Paladins, I should add some flying units in too. I am not suggesting that Isadora is "bad," I just never found a use for her when I had other perfectly good mounted units and other types of units that could kick ass.

Obviously, those who play for efficiency will favor prepromotes because they are often strong enough to clear maps, and not much training needs to be put into them. Those who play for other reasons may not favor prepromotes. As for showing Darros that prepromotes have their uses, he has to find that out for himself. If he wants to use the units that end up having the best stats (not who can help you beat the game with the lowest turncount), then prepromotes aren't always the best.

Interesting Fact: Someone brought up Louise's base def of 9. Isadora's base def is actually 8, one point lower. But she can usually take at least two attacks and live.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Charpig

[Big Klingy]

I'm with some of the people before, I think it's more fun to train up weaker characters who end up better. (it's really the reason I play the game)

But there are many pre-promotes that are very useful. I like to think of FE6 as the 'crappy pre-promote game', but it has quite a few good ones too. Niime has excellent staff utility, Yodel has it too and comes with maxed Res. Most other games have examples too.

FE11 is the most lopsided here. It has some of the best pre-promotes in the series, and also some of the most downright awful ones.

FE12, however, seems to have given most pre-promotes pretty good growths. Granted, some are still pretty bad (Dolph :( ) but the amazing ones (Sirius, Etzel, I'll know the others once I play the game) make up for it. Im thinking of doing a pre-promotes only run of this.

[Parrhesia]

Not in my books. I have uses for them elsewhere.

But who else are you gonna give the silver/killer bows to? In all likelihood nobody else can use Silver and nobody else gets nearly as much use from a Killer.

I believe the point of this topic was to say something about the potential of prepromotes. I believe I said that there ARE prepromotes with potential, just not those two. I wasn't sure if you got it the first time around. It looks like you have, so I can (hopefully) put that to rest.

Right, but the argument is about whether those two HAVE potential. And, well...they do.

Last I checked, the entire game does not wield Javelins.

I believe (not certain in the slightest, but whatever) that was referring to Pent's potential as a vaguely frontline unit that destroys everything and thus will probably take some hits. This brings us back to the support thing; despite his already decent defences he needs that more than he needs to destroy the entire universe using a bar of soap.

[Charpig]

Eclipse might be saving the Silver Bow for when her other units reach an A in Bows, and by then they will likely have better damage output than Louise.

I never use units that are already promoted, because they don't have as good potential in my experience, am I being biased and wrong?

"Potential" in this case most likely refers to unit stats, not to player efficiency. Wil and Rebecca, though they start very weak, have the potential to outclass Louise when they get to be Level 4 Snipers. Yes, prepromotes such as Pent and Louise can handle FE7 enemies just fine, but that doesn't change the fact that if you trained up one of the weaker units, then those units could end up even more powerful. However, it could just as easily be the other way around. Wil and Rebecca, if they get a slew of bad level ups, may end up even worse than Louise when they get to be Level 4 Snipers (yikes!). When you train up weaker units, you are taking a chance because you never know how the RNG will treat you. But some players take that chance, because the reward is worth the risk. Prepromotes are safe to use because although they don't have as much potential as unpromoted units, their bases are RNG proof (except in the case of Hard Mode bonuses, which can only help you). And of course they can still level up and gain stats, but they don't get as many level ups as the unpromoted units. So prepromotes indeed have potential, but not as much. Not every prepromote is good, but many of them are decent and some of them are great. What category Louise falls in (or any other unit, for that matter) is up to the player, what suits his strategies and goals. If you want to create the bow user with the highest stats, Louise isn't the best option. If you just want a unit that can support Pent and doesn't require a lot of training and chance taking, Louise is just as good as anyone else.

[eclipse]

But who else are you gonna give the silver/killer bows to? In all likelihood nobody else can use Silver and nobody else gets nearly as much use from a Killer.

I save the more powerful weapons for those times where it is required. As funny as it would be to ROFLSTOMP the entire game with the cheapest, most accurate stuff I can afford, I realize there's situations where I need more firepower. Getting out of Bern shouldn't be one of those situations (unless I'm trying to take out the boss or something along those lines).

Right, but the argument is about whether those two HAVE potential. And, well...they do.

I don't think it's enough potential to try to convince someone that prepromotes in general are good. That's like trying to convince someone that Shadow Dragon is chock-full of good units, by using Gaggles as an example.

I believe (not certain in the slightest, but whatever) that was referring to Pent's potential as a vaguely frontline unit that destroys everything and thus will probably take some hits. This brings us back to the support thing; despite his already decent defences he needs that more than he needs to destroy the entire universe using a bar of soap.

I'd say you're probably right.

Some units have higher defenses than others for a reason. Pent's defenses are decent, but he'll never reach Oswin's tinking potential without some serious RNG abuse/blessing. I use my mages to either take out units that can't counter, or take out other mages. In my case, destroying the universe is what I'd benefit more from than a defense bonus.

Eclipse might be saving the Silver Bow for when her other units reach an A in Bows, and by then they will likely have better damage output than Louise.

They're saved for specific situations, those that I can't get away with using something cheaper. If my other units with better damage output need those kinds of weapons in that situation, where does that leave Louise and Isadora?