Dub or Sub

[Zkirsche]

Names or honorifics. Names really sound awkward to me for some reason. Maybe it's just the way they say them.

I have to disagree here, the shaman king dub changes Tao Ren, a fairly major character, to Lenny, which I can't stand. It just just strikes me that whenever they say lenny, that something is wrong and it bothers me.

Of course, that's not the only one (and not the only one in the series either: Hao turns into Zeke, and Horo Horo into "Trey Racer", which just sounds like a prototype name for disneys speed racer. Ugh)

[Florete]

I can't really argue about the quality in those cases, but I still stick to the producers intention stuff of principle. I might have been of a different opinion if I watched more of it, I dunno. Reading the shows is much less of an alteration than replacing large parts of the audio.

The fact stands: Producers did not intend for their audience to read their shows. Some anime directors have stated this directly, and they fully support the dubs (even Toei animation signed off on all the changes 4kids made to One Piece).

As for Japanese names and/or honorifics, they sound uh...out of place and awkward. I tried watching Gurren Lagann's dub and when Yoko said "Yomako" and it sounded dumb, so I changed to Japanese.

I don't really get that sentiment, to be honest. It's not as though most English names are common, everyday words, so hearing Japanese names doesn't sound strange to me either. Plus, there's plenty of other media out there with foreign names and terms. Maybe I'm just used to being around it so much since there were always a lot of Asian students at my schools.

Gurren Lagann is one of my favorite dubs. Kyle Hebert was amazing as Kamina.

[FaceDancer]

I don't know what dubs you've watched, but I've not seen a single dub that changed a joke for any reason other than the joke not making sense in English (like some of the jokes in Azumanga Daioh, which is an older show anyway), and I don't see how that could change the "meaning" of the conversation anyway. If you're talking about censorship (and this goes for Trueblade as well) stop watching 4kids dubs; big anime companies like FUNimation and Bang Zoom don't censor the anime they release at all.

Many of the dubs I have watched have been older shows, I should have mentioned that.

And the meaning of a conversation can in fact change if the translation is done incorrectly. Most dubbing companies do a good job nowadays with that, but a long time ago dubbing sucked. Especially when it comes to cultural references and historical allusions, changing the way things are said may have a different meaning than the original. This is something I've studied in school, so it's not like I'm pulling this scenario out of my ass :D

[AstraLunaSol]

Subs, unless there's a dub that would give a better feeling that the original language couldn't.

[Intoner Two]

Subbed, unless the actors talk too fast or the subtitle text is too "literal" in translation which can make it harder to read and get what's going on. I'm fairly split on it all, but I don't watch much anime regularly.

I agree w/ Eclipse's sentiments on games with dual voice options. I own a few myself and occasionally switch between them just to see if characters seem the same or not, or heck, if I actually like the japanese actor better. Of course, sometimes I get a bit biased after having gotten so used to the dub, but I'm still divided on even that.

I suppose that for anime, I think I do prefer it in japanese; but most video games I own, I prefer the english voices.

[FaceDancer]

I agree w/ Eclipse's sentiments on games with dual voice options. I own a few myself and occasionally switch between them just to see if characters seem the same or not, or heck, if I actually like the japanese actor better. Of course, sometimes I get a bit biased after having gotten so used to the dub, but I'm still divided on even that.

I don't understand why, with the advent of Blu-Ray discs, not all games created in a foreign country come standard with that option to switch between the languages. Is it really that hard to do? Too costly?

[Nightmare]

Maybe I'm just used to being around it so much since there were always a lot of Asian students at my schools.

That's something I wanted to say, but didn't, and now I will. Let's say, for example, there's a show where foreigners go to Japan and call the Japanese by their names. Even if it sounds awkward, it's acceptable since, well, they're foreigners, and not well-versed in the language. It's actually natural and appealing to have this. But when it's in a show where these names are supposed to be accepted and of the norm, it's kind of awkward to have them say it as if it's something from the English language and we're supposed to readily accept it as such. It's like going to your neighbourhood (if it's not in Japan) and suddenly everyone has Japanese names, attires and lifestyles but they're still speaking the native language of your country, and that would be awkward, to say the least. Which is why I think that the second kind of show is better (to me) in Japanese.

I don't know if that made sense or not, but there you go.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Nightmare

[Esau of Isaac]

That's something I wanted to say, but didn't, and now I will. Let's say, for example, there's a show where foreigners go to Japan and call the Japanese by their names. Even if it sounds awkward, it's acceptable since, well, they're foreigners, and not well-versed in the language. It's actually natural and appealing to have this. But when it's in a show where these names are supposed to be accepted and of the norm, it's kind of awkward to have them say it as if it's something from the English language and we're supposed to readily accept it as such. It's like going to your neighbourhood (if it's not in Japan) and suddenly everyone has Japanese names, attires and lifestyles but they're still speaking the native language of your country, and that would be awkward, to say the least. Which is why I think that the second kind of show is better (to me) in Japanese.

I don't know if that made sense or not, but there you go.

Absolutely. This is also why companies will oftentimes make minor alterations when bringing it over. Discussion over this or that food changes to a more natively known one, jokes are made to fit in linguistically, and so on and so forth. These are most often minor, and made to make viewers more capable of understanding the material. Because languages by their nature are heavily culturally based, it's oftentimes not very sensible to leave in material that will confound anyone that isn't heavily versed on the subject.

There's just not a cultural equivalent. Sure, you can have characters use English honorifics, but their presence is weak comparatively. Injecting Mr. into every mention of a person that uses -san would be horrific. So, some cultural meaning, and sometimes a bit of significance plotwise, has to be lost.

[Defeatist Elitist]

The fact stands: Producers did not intend for their audience to read their shows. Some anime directors have stated this directly, and they fully support the dubs (even Toei animation signed off on all the changes 4kids made to One Piece).

I dunno about other people, but when I read subs it's almost like I hear them in the voice of the character. Not quite, but it's pretty much the same to me as understanding Japanese. Now, of course, I don't understand Japanese at all, but the way it ends up is somewhat similar. I get the tone, etc from the voice and the meaning from the words. Of course you basically get all this anyway from dubs, so this isn't an argument against them, just that I don't know if whether they intended them to be read or not really matters.

[Florete]

I dunno about other people, but when I read subs it's almost like I hear them in the voice of the character. Not quite, but it's pretty much the same to me as understanding Japanese. Now, of course, I don't understand Japanese at all, but the way it ends up is somewhat similar. I get the tone, etc from the voice and the meaning from the words. Of course you basically get all this anyway from dubs, so this isn't an argument against them, just that I don't know if whether they intended them to be read or not really matters.

Dialogue and understanding it is not the point. Seeing is. Subtitles take your attention away, even if for just a second, from what you're supposed to be looking at.

[shadowofchaos]

Dialogue and understanding it is not the point. Seeing is. Subtitles take your attention away, even if for just a second, from what you're supposed to be looking at.

Which is why I watch RAW

Indeed, that is a VALID point indeed. But... it's just a split second? I mean, you're probably fluent in the language of the subs... so more than likely, you can pretty much see EVERYTHING including the subtitles in that split second your attention is shooting through skimming through the letters.

Edited August 31, 2010 by shadowofchaos

[Momo]

Depends on the show, I really don't have much of a general preference. All I can say is that using honorifics in an English version is an absolutely awful idea.

I don't understand why, with the advent of Blu-Ray discs, not all games created in a foreign country come standard with that option to switch between the languages. Is it really that hard to do? Too costly?

They typically don't do this because they would have to pay for the Japanese cast again, along with a brand new cast of English speakers.

[Florete]

Which is why I watch RAW

Indeed, that is a VALID point indeed. But... it's just a split second? I mean, you're probably fluent in the language of the subs... so more than likely, you can pretty much see EVERYTHING including the subtitles in that split second your attention is shooting through skimming through the letters.

It depends on how long the line is. Obviously if it's something like "Hi" it won't take long to read, but subtitles can often take multiple lines on the screen and take up to 4-5 seconds to read based on how fast of a reader you are, especially if you read it wrong or something and have to go over it again.

[Narga_Rocks]

It depends on how long the line is. Obviously if it's something like "Hi" it won't take long to read, but subtitles can often take multiple lines on the screen and take up to 4-5 seconds to read based on how fast of a reader you are, especially if you read it wrong or something and have to go over it again.

I can definitely say that I've found myself either pausing or even rewinding just in order to read it all before a particular line goes away. Especially when the characters start speaking faster or they decide to give a translation for a special attack at the top of the screen.

Granted, I rewind English TV with a PVR sometimes to catch things I've missed, but that's generally due to characters mumbling or the voice audio being overpowered by sound effects or something.

I still kind of like subs, though. Some of the subtleties are missed when they translate. Like how Japanese people seem to have a ton of different ways of addressing people based on how close they are. When two characters go from family name with a suffix to just family name to given name with suffix to just given name over the course of a few episodes, and on the dub it's just first name -> first name -> first name -> first name, you kinda lose a bit of what's going on. Stuff like that is why I think I might like subs more, though there isn't anything wrong with dubs I guess. It just feels incomplete sometimes.

[eclipse]

It depends on how long the line is. Obviously if it's something like "Hi" it won't take long to read, but subtitles can often take multiple lines on the screen and take up to 4-5 seconds to read based on how fast of a reader you are, especially if you read it wrong or something and have to go over it again.

My reading speed is at least double the average speed, so this isn't an issue for me. Not sure how close to average your reading speed is (I know I'm an exception, but if you're about average, that's a good argument).

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, and another complaint about dubs is Naruto-based.

U-zu-ma-ki Naruto Rendan

Na-ru-to Uzumaki Combo (or something like that, I can't remember exactly)

Which one sounds better? Also, since the Uzumaki part has 4 attacks and Naruto is only 3 syllables, well, you can see why I'd like the original more.

On the other hand, I kinda like "scatter" more than "chire" for Byakuya's shikai, so sometimes I do like the English more.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[FaceDancer]

Which is why I watch RAW

Indeed, that is a VALID point indeed. But... it's just a split second? I mean, you're probably fluent in the language of the subs... so more than likely, you can pretty much see EVERYTHING including the subtitles in that split second your attention is shooting through skimming through the letters.

I agree, this has more to do with your reading speed than anything, so I can't take the "subtitles take away from the experience because you have to read" generalizing argument seriously if you are a slow reader. I read well above the average speed, so it's not a problem for me.

They typically don't do this because they would have to pay for the Japanese cast again, along with a brand new cast of English speakers.

I failed to take that into consideration when I posted ^^; Though it would be nice for companies to have enough money to do that on every game.

It depends on how long the line is. Obviously if it's something like "Hi" it won't take long to read, but subtitles can often take multiple lines on the screen and take up to 4-5 seconds to read based on how fast of a reader you are, especially if you read it wrong or something and have to go over it again.

Like others have said before, this depends on reading speed more so than how much is on the screen. Sure, you can be distracted if you read at a slower level, but not everyone reads that slow. Also, no one is forcing you to proceed in the show if you missed something in the subs. The pause button can work wonders if you see the subs before the speaker has a chance to say them.

[Zkirsche]

I failed to take that into consideration when I posted ^^; Though it would be nice for companies to have enough money to do that on every game

Naruto storm 2 on teh xbox 360 has an option to hear both japanese and english. Well, at least on the demo it has :/. So if you like naruto and have got an xbox, it could be for you.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Florete]

My reading speed is at least double the average speed, so this isn't an issue for me. Not sure how close to average your reading speed is (I know I'm an exception, but if you're about average, that's a good argument).

Like others have said before, this depends on reading speed more so than how much is on the screen. Sure, you can be distracted if you read at a slower level, but not everyone reads that slow. Also, no one is forcing you to proceed in the show if you missed something in the subs. The pause button can work wonders if you see the subs before the speaker has a chance to say them.

Reading speed is not the point. Sure, it lessens the issue, but the issue still exists; subtitles take your attention away, even if for just a second, from what you are supposed to be looking at. Even if you're fast reader (I am, too) there will be times where multiple lines come up at once and it will take you a couple seconds to read it all. I don't if me saying this to you two really means anything anymore though, because this is usually used as a counter to the "I want to watch it the way the creators intended" argument.

Also, I don't like being forced to pause.

[Zkirsche]

Reading speed is not the point. Sure, it lessens the issue, but the issue still exists; subtitles take your attention away, even if for just a second, from what you are supposed to be looking at. Even if you're fast reader (I am, too) there will be times where multiple lines come up at once and it will take you a couple seconds to read it all. I don't if me saying this to you two really means anything anymore though, because this is usually used as a counter to the "I want to watch it the way the creators intended" argument.

This is incredibly overexaggerated. I have never found any sort of problems with this. It takes about as much effort and concentration to read the subtitles as it would to process what they're saying in a dubbed version. It's like complaining about breathing because it's more effort than blinking.

And having to divert attention for the most miniscule of seconds is not enough to convince me that I should listen to my favourite character get a ridiculous name/ "Believe it"/ Terrible voice acting (Renji ugh).

[eclipse]

Reading speed is not the point. Sure, it lessens the issue, but the issue still exists; subtitles take your attention away, even if for just a second, from what you are supposed to be looking at. Even if you're fast reader (I am, too) there will be times where multiple lines come up at once and it will take you a couple seconds to read it all. I don't if me saying this to you two really means anything anymore though, because this is usually used as a counter to the "I want to watch it the way the creators intended" argument.

Also, I don't like being forced to pause.

For the really ridiculous bits, it's usually a wall of text, along with some panoramic shot that I don't really care about (if it's an action anime, the explanations aren't going to be given while stuff's happening). Everything else is fast enough that I read it and still appreciate the show.

Everyone's different, and it looks like that's not the case for you.

[Florete]

This is incredibly overexaggerated. I have never found any sort of problems with this. It takes about as much effort and concentration to read the subtitles as it would to process what they're saying in a dubbed version. It's like complaining about breathing because it's more effort than blinking.

And having to divert attention for the most miniscule of seconds is not enough to convince me that I should listen to my favourite character get a ridiculous name/ "Believe it"/ Terrible voice acting (Renji ugh).

Like I said at the end, it's usually used as a counter to an argument that it seemed they weren't using, at least not anymore (someone mentioned it earlier). The point of the argument itself is that creators intended for people to watch their shows, not read them. Be sure to remember that I don't care if people prefer watching things with subtitles, I just don't want them acting like it's superior all the time.

Oh, and "Believe it" was removed pretty fast (I don't recall hearing it at all by the time they got to the forest part of the Chunin Exams). I don't know what kind of problem you have with Renji's voice actor, though. I think he's fine (assuming you're talking about the Bleach one).

[Zkirsche]

The point of the argument itself is that creators intended for people to watch their shows, not read them.

Pedantism, much?

Oh, and "Believe it" was removed pretty fast (I don't recall hearing it at all by the time they got to the forest part of the Chunin Exams).

That's not the only bad thing about the naruto dub IMO

I don't know what kind of problem you have with Renji's voice actor, though. I think he's fine (assuming you're talking about the Bleach one).

Nope, hate him. Hate most dubs and thier actors and still haven't, to this day, found a dub which I have liked. Renji is one of my least fav's, though.

I just don't want them acting like it's superior all the time.

But, judging from what I've seen, it is better all the time.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Narga_Rocks]

This is incredibly overexaggerated. I have never found any sort of problems with this. It takes about as much effort and concentration to read the subtitles as it would to process what they're saying in a dubbed version. It's like complaining about breathing because it's more effort than blinking.

How do you figure? that doesn't make any sense. it's not about effort or concentration. It's about the fact that while you glance down to read character A taunting character B, you aren't able to watch character A swing his sword at character B nor character B's block because you can't look at two things at once. How is that even remotely related to breathing and blinking?

Also, breathing and blinking don't have the same function. Reading subs and listening to dubs do have the same function: understand what is going on.

Picture this:

two methods of breathing.

a: breath normally. You can do a bunch of other stuff while doing this

b: flap your hands and dance like a chicken

I have no idea why option b also allows oxygen to get to your cells and allow you to continue living, but for the purpose of this example it does. Which of those two methods allow you to do other stuff at the same time?

[Zkirsche]

How do you figure? that doesn't make any sense. it's not about effort or concentration. It's about the fact that while you glance down to read character A taunting character B, you aren't able to watch character A swing his sword at character B nor character B's block because you can't look at two things at once. How is that even remotely related to breathing and blinking?

This is exaggerated, which was my point (and I even started with "This is exaggerated" so idk how you missed that). Thing is you/I can glance down to read the taunt in time for me to watch the animation, heck, if I'm not in full screen mode, I don't even move my eyes to read what it says: I can see everything at once. Periphiral Vision was the term I was looking for, face, so thanks.

And yes, you have to concentrate on the text instead of the action when watching subs, thats the whole point, isn't it? You can't do both? And I was saying the difference in concentration needed for reading subs and simply listening to the dubbed is the equivalent of the difference in concentration needed to breathe and blink.

Also, breathing and blinking don't have the same function. Reading subs and listening to dubs do have the same function: understand what is going on.

Good thing having the same function has absolutely no relevance to the point at all then.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Zwiebel