Howcome FE8 has no official tier list?

[Anouleth]

@2: Artur is slightly faster and Lute hurts more with it. Give and take, really. At almost any given level neither or both are going to be doubling the Demon King, not one or the other. I maintain Lute and Saleh use it better than Artur anyway.

What about durability? Lute needs 20/7 and a Robe to survive a hit from Morva or Lyon. And she only has 14AS with Excalibur at that level as a Sage, so the Demon King doubles her (she's borderline even as a Mage Knight).

I don't understand how Artur does signficantly less damage either. He 2HKOes Morva, and both of them deal awful damage to Lyon anyway.

WRT Barrier, I never use it for anything other than cheap leveling of L'Arachel before Warp arrives. I suppose it's useful for things but I find Restore to be essential when it's needed, not useful.

That's the whole point of it. Faster levels, more exp, get to A Rank for Warp shenanigans. You can cast Barrier even when there are no injured people, which is why it's good. Plus, magic enemies are annoying.

[RNG Princess]

Saleh + Innes in Eph route < Saleh + Innes in Eir route

but I think I placed them too low on Ephs route

[Mekkah]

If this is about lowest turn counts possible or near it, Seth needs to go to his own tier. No one even compares. He trivializes about 3/4 of the game by himself. In addition, the implication that Seth can be used makes growth units such as Lute drop like a brick because there is hardly any time or space to make them grow. Lute is the perfect example because she starts out extremely frail and doesn't have exceptional move until promotion, which is a problem when you need 900 EXP to get there! Even if Seth wasn't used, she shouldn't still be any higher than Lower Mid. To understand why, just watch dondon's 0%, or even my 100% crt run, or read any efficient playthrough log such as Aquilae's.

This also makes all prepromotes and other units that are useful at their base level (Joshua with his high Spd, Gerik with his good everything, Knoll with his summons) go up.

If this list has different standards, then they should probably be outlined.

The list that was made by FEG members:

"Sethskip" (lowest turn count possible, Seth use is allowed):

One of these is not like the others:

Seth

A tier:

Vanessa

Tethys

Tana

Moulder

Natasha

Gerik

Cormag

Duessel

Saleh

B tier:

Franz

Kyle

Forde

Innes

Artur

C tier:

Joshua

Garcia

Knoll

Eirika

Syrene

Colm

Rennac

D tier:

Ephraim

L'Arachel

Dozla

Myrrh

Gilliam

Don't use!:

Lute

Ross

Neimi

Marisa

Ewan

Amelia

It seems we never got to making an Ephraim route list, or one where Seth use is banned. People probably got bored of FE8 before they could finish their efficient Sethless runs!

[Anouleth]

There was an Ephraim Route list somewhere in the same topic.

[Integrity]

Meh. If we're going for pure lowturns then we may as well make it a Sethskip tier list, and Sethskip bores me to tears for some reason.

[Anouleth]

Even in non-seth skip, Lute is still fail. Awful durability, meh offense and movement, can't fight any lategame bosses. She's certainly not better than Artur or Joshua or even Garcia (Garcia has better durability, and when he has Garm and she has Excalibur, he beats her in speed too).

[Integrity]

Of course, you know that I'm arguing Lute >= Artur and you're arguing Artur > Lute...

Point is, Artur shouldn't be a tier below Lute.

I'll back out of this now because I honestly haven't used Artur seriously in a while. If anybody else wants to carry the Lute torch feel free to, but I'm dropping it.

[Junkhead]

Is Sethskipping even fair or smart to do? You're feeding most of the Exp to Seth and letting all your other characters behind. I wouldn't even call that "Effecient". Just speedrunning.

[Thor Odinson]

Fair, not at all, but Seth and another character can easily take care of both parts of Endgame---like Duracell, for example, by themselves. So it's not that big of a deal. The only drawback is feeding the main lord Exp so they can keep alive better.

[Anouleth]

Is Sethskipping even fair or smart to do? You're feeding most of the Exp to Seth and letting all your other characters behind. I wouldn't even call that "Effecient". Just speedrunning.

Well, it's probably wise to train a few other units, like Kyle/Forde/Franz, and possibly Garcia/Joshua/Artur. But yes, Seth takes the lion's share.

And what part of it is 'inefficient'? If anything is inefficient, it's taking time to train units that won't be useful later on.

[RNG Princess]

Its inefficient to speedrun because it makes it riskier to get a game over. Sethskipping makes it harder to keep the lords alive, at least thats what it seems like but idk really ^_^ since I never speed run.

[Anouleth]

Its inefficient to speedrun because it makes it riskier to get a game over. Sethskipping makes it harder to keep the lords alive, at least thats what it seems like but idk really ^_^ since I never speed run.

In any playthrough, there is going to be some chance of failure. dondon's playthrough was based on a 0% growths playthrough, and while he took some liberties with chances of failure on most maps, it has to be understood that in a real playthrough, you would also train other units alongside Seth. Just that they'd actually be good units, and time-wasters like Ross or Neimi would be benched.

Fact is, Seth can beat most of the earlier maps almost single-handedly, with no risk of failure, and in later maps you'll have a few other units as well.

[RNG Princess]

In any playthrough, there is going to be some chance of failure. dondon's playthrough was based on a 0% growths playthrough, and while he took some liberties with chances of failure on most maps, it has to be understood that in a real playthrough, you would also train other units alongside Seth. Just that they'd actually be good units, and time-wasters like Ross or Neimi would be benched.

Fact is, Seth can beat most of the earlier maps almost single-handedly, with no risk of failure, and in later maps you'll have a few other units as well.

I think I understand now.

Its much safer to have the others hide and Seth do the fighting.

I'm curious now how do you happen to have Seth route an entire chapter by himself without slowing down?

Chapter 4 comes to mind and I'm curious how do you keep Eirika safe if she has to seize a chapter? Do you clear a path before her or do you have her help on the way?

Edited September 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Thor Odinson]

You mean C3, right?

Well, since it's Sethskip and not Seth solo, Eirika can help. Especially since you want her to at least level enough to keep alive and she has mostly WTA on that chapter, anyway.

Alternatively, throw Seth a Javelin and a vulnerary and have him run people through with Eirika rescued, but give him a sword for the boss/any enemies with one-range. Seth's durability is good enough that he doesn't care about 1/2 SKL/SPD and WTD anyway. He won't be doubling anymore with 6 SPD (or 7 if he's leveled twice and gotten SPD on both), but he doesn't get doubled either IIRC.

...I think I'll try that on my Seth solo.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Luminescent Blade

[RNG Princess]

You mean C3, right?

Well, since it's Sethskip and not Seth solo, Eirika can help. Especially since you want her to at least level enough to keep alive and she has mostly WTA on that chapter, anyway.

Alternatively, throw Seth a Javelin and a vulnerary and have him run people through with Eirika rescued, but give him a sword for the boss/any enemies with one-range. Seth's durability is good enough that he doesn't care about 1/2 SKL/SPD and WTD anyway. He won't be doubling anymore with 6 SPD (or 7 if he's leveled twice and gotten SPD on both), but he doesn't get doubled either IIRC.

...I think I'll try that on my Seth solo.

Oh ok I get it its not necessarily a Seth Solo either so others can join in combat, its just that all this Seth praise confused me a little. He deserves it but it seemed to me like he does all the work himself alone and he really doesn't.

[Thor Odinson]

It's just that Seth will be doing the majority of the combat and pretty much getting all the bosskills, since he can oneround them, especially the earlygame guys.

Sethskip for the most part, is basically flying/warpping/getting Seth over to the boss and having him kill boss, and flying a lord over to seize for minimum turncount possible.

Other units are still in play, especially considering the number of Route chapters.

[Junkhead]

Well, it's probably wise to train a few other units, like Kyle/Forde/Franz, and possibly Garcia/Joshua/Artur. But yes, Seth takes the lion's share.

And what part of it is 'inefficient'? If anything is inefficient, it's taking time to train units that won't be useful later on.

Garcia isn't too good to be assumed, is he? There's also DURACEL competing for GARm. And I doubt a bit on Joshua, but Auldhulma puts me on the right mindset once again.

I just remembered effeciency wasn't based only on rushing through chapters with your best character. It also includes distributing equal amount of Exp to all of your characters. And Sethskipping might be a problem when you need to raise your healer's staff rank as fast as possible, so they can use Warp later on.

I think when we consider the fact that Seth and DURACEL can duo endgame may be a little bit high of an estimation. We kinda underrate the difficulty, and forget how much trouble are Gorgons and other enemies those two might fail to 1RKO if not high-leveled. And not to mention neither are too dodgy later on.

Edited September 3, 2010 by The Leaving Song

[Anouleth]

Oh ok I get it its not necessarily a Seth Solo either so others can join in combat, its just that all this Seth praise confused me a little. He deserves it but it seemed to me like he does all the work himself alone and he really doesn't.

Well, he still needs support. He's only one man.

Chapter 2: Eirika needs to take the Bandits on the left hand side, Ross needs to be recruited so we can get Garcia.

Chapter 3: People need to break down walls to clear a path for Seth.

Chapter 4: Seth can clear half the map, other people need to kill the Revenant reinforcements, the dudes around Lute's village, and the bonewalkers on the rhs

Chapter 5: Need to get some of the stat boosters, but otherwise nothing really. I think it's helpful to recruit Joshua, but don't quote me on that one.

Chapter 7: Vanessa needs to drop Seth and Eirika.

Chapter 8: Vanessa can carry Eirika?

Chapter 9: Seth gets dropped in the south, everyone else routs the north.

Chapter 10: Tana/Vanessa needs to drop Seth and Eirika. Gerik/Tethys/Innes recruit automatically, and Marisa isn't worth recruiting.

Chapter 11: Again, it's Rout and Seth can't be everywhere. There are reinforcements coming from most directions, as well, and recruiting L'arachel and Dozla is useful iirc.

Chapter 12: Another Rout, this time with flying enemies as well.

Chapter 13: Cormag needs to be recruited, so you need to hold the line for a short while at least.

Chapter 14: Lots of doors, and a difficult boss that Seth probably wants help for.

Chapter 15: Rout, AND Desert. Seth can't get to the south half, others need to handle it.

Chapter 16: Seth can't take on everything in the throne room on his own, and we need to get Eirika there too.

Chapter 17: Pretty easy to kill Lyon.

Chapter 18: Another Rout, this time with h4x magic users and a massive map.

Chapter 19: Seth is slow to reach Riev on his own, Warp + Torch is needed.

Chapter 20: Seth isn't great against Morca iirc, and there's difficult terrain everywhere so Warp + flying units is needed.

Final: NO WAY is Seth getting to Lyon and killing him on his own. Needs staff users for Warp, fliers for support, other combatants for bosskill.

Garcia isn't too good to be assumed, is he? There's also DURACEL competing for GARm. And I doubt a bit on Joshua, but Auldhulma puts me on the right mindset once again.

Well, they both have strong starts. Joshua has Killing Edge, while Garcia slaughters the Soldiers and monsters in earlygame. Both also have a good base level, so they can promote pretty quickly. If they have a problem, it's that there's no spare Hero's Crest until Chapter 14 in Eirika Route. Eirika Route in general is stingy with the promotion items and stat-boosters.

I just remembered effeciency wasn't based only on rushing through chapters with your best character. It also includes distributing equal amount of Exp to all of your characters. And Sethskipping might be a problem when you need to raise your healer's staff rank as fast as possible, so they can use Warp later on.

I think when we consider the fact that Seth and DURACEL can duo endgame may be a little bit high of an estimation. We kinda underrate the difficulty, and forget how much trouble are Gorgons and other enemies those two might fail to 1RKO if not high-leveled. And not to mention neither are too dodgy later on.

Don't take my word for it. dondon beat endgame in just three turns on his 0% growths run, iirc he used Cormag and Duessel.

Staff Rank is solved by spamming Barrier, which can be used every turn unlike Mend/Recover.

[Rewjeo]

Since when is efficiency based on distributing equal EXP to everyone?

Moulder has base C staves and gets +70 WEXP from promotion, IIRC. Heal some scratches, use things like torch, and getting him to 10 isn't unlikely. And there's a warp user.

[Junkhead]

Since when is efficiency based on distributing equal EXP to everyone?

Moulder has base C staves and gets +70 WEXP from promotion, IIRC. Heal some scratches, use things like torch, and getting him to 10 isn't unlikely. And there's a warp user.

It's effecient if you are training other characters along with your strongest one. A Seth solo might take some more turns passed midgame, where 2-range is more common and route chapters as well.

But then there's another issue. That's his low Mag. You need it to have Moulder warp characters farther, rather than just 4-5 spaces.

[Anouleth]

It's effecient if you are training other characters along with your strongest one. A Seth solo might take some more turns passed midgame, where 2-range is more common and route chapters as well.

But then there's another issue. That's his low Mag. You need it to have Moulder warp characters farther, rather than just 4-5 spaces.

Warp range has a minimum of five, and again, dondon's playthrough had no problem with Moulder being at base magic.

[Greg]

so uhh I don't mean to be that guy but... whats tier

:)

[RNG Princess]

@ Anouleth.

Isn't it more convenient to staff-spam Saleh for Warp staff in a 0% growth play??? I mean he has higher magic, and I agree with Staff-spamming barrier staff it is a very useful trick.

I wonder what being 100% efficient stands for anyway. I sort of doubt it stands for a rushed play.

[Junkhead]

so uhh I don't mean to be that guy but... whats tier

:)

I'm sorry to say, that it's silly to just step in a tier list and ask what it is. It's a little ignorant.

You could've just googled it you know.

But anyway, a tier list is a list that ranks characters from best to worst.

[Anouleth]

Isn't it more convenient to staff-spam Saleh for Warp staff in a 0% growth play??? I mean he has higher magic, and I agree with Staff-spamming barrier staff it is a very useful trick.

Do both?