Ask the Mafia

[Life]

PS: If this thread goes as well as I think it should (an introduction to Mafia, essentially) please sticky it.

Lately, I've been witnessing mafia games where tons of things go wrong. I've also seen my dick been licked by about half the mafia community. Now while the conceited brat within me likes to relish in this, I do see games where people make simple mistakes or don't know what a role is (I don't blame them for that) or not understand how to play strategically in proper situations. I'm not saying that I'm the best Mafia player here. In fact, I actually don't think I am (Tables is still kinda better than me and there's others who are quite good). But I feel that I have enough... let's call it intuition to help those who don't yet understand how to play certain situations.

Note: If you want to tell me that I'm a conceited know-it-all, don't do it in this thread. The purpose of this thread is to help new players and experienced players learn about roles that have been used and also get a slight grip on basic strategies within Mafia. I'm trying to do a good thing here, believe it or not. And if someone believes that they have a better way out of a certain situation or to get other info, please post away. I know that I'm always learning in this game (Smogon Mafia is teaching me a lot).

Now, let's start with a couple of things that I'd like to share with the community. Feel free to disagree entirely, this is just my take. But before you post your counterargument, read mine so that you know what you are talking about.

Scumhunting vs. Village Leader:

This is a debate that I have found myself in recently. In case someone is new here, I'll briefly explain what these terms means.

Scumhunting - Using tells from players whether they have been accused of something or not in order to lynch the Mafia. Most players who are Mafia tend to play differently than when they are part of the town. Some might try to lurk (stay in the backgrounds and not talk much) while others (myself specifically) will tend to be more vocal than normal. These tells are usually subtle little hints that the person is Mafia.

Village Leader - A person who literally chooses lynch victims for the town since they have access to every player's role PM (true or fake). Unless the VL has been confirmed to be a townie (a Rogue or Good Twin), they must usually bring sufficient evidence out into the open and have the town agree with the logic before the lynch. If a village leader tells you to lynch person x without disclosing a reason and person x is innocent, it's quite possible that the village leader is in fact a mafia member.

There's been a debate going on within the community on which method is more better. Or rather, "fun" vs. "effectiveness" to be more correct. Some people believe that scumhunting allows every person to feel like a hero when they root out a Mafia member... IF they root out a Mafia member. Others (I find myself being the strongest advocate) believe that using a village leader to figure out who is lying and who isn't is a better way to play the game and really doesn't affect the fun portion of the game since the game gives you what you put into it.

Now, I personally play games to win. Trying to win is fun. Please don't confuse this with "winning is fun", the actual enjoyment of the game comes from attempting to win. I also believe that anyone who says that "winning isn't everything, it's all about having fun" is actually deluding themselves since if you don't care about winning, you really shouldn't have fun since you don't have a goal within the game. I found Train Mafia 2 incredibly fun because I had created this elaborate scheme to try to help my team win. Just remember, this is from my opinion and experience only.

Now, the best way to merge the two is literally to combine them. Many people mistakenly believe that going against the village leader means that you must be mafia too and should get lynched. However, this post and this following one by me have two villagers (myself and another person) arguing over who is the proper person to lynch. The village leader hadn't even made up his mind yet and decided to leave it to the village in order to choose who should get lynched. In this specific case, both my target and loudkirbyking's target ended up being mafia (surprisingly both on the same team). However, when my target was godkilled and shown to be mafia, notice that loudkirbyking was not immediately assumed to be mafia. And he still hasn't been (we're on Night 2 right now so... yeah).

What I'm trying to say is that your opinion is still valid and you should also mention it to the village leader. If you think that person x is innocent, you should state a logical case for why he is. If you do that, you should not be considered auto-mafia if he turns up guilty. If your reasoning is "I have a gut feeling", there's a reason why you then look suspicious. And just because you don't have all the chips in your stack, don't immediately feel as if you are expendable. Try to gain some information on the rest of the town for yourself and report back to the VL. If something doesn't match up, congratulations! You found a Mafia member by doing something for yourself rather than sitting back and letting one person do all the work for you. I respect people who do that and urge many of you to try it for yourselves.

No Outside Contact Games: These are games where you are not allowed to contact anyone on IRC or in PMs on a forum or MSN/AIM/Whatever. They basically encourage only scumhunting and lucky guesses by the village inspectors/cops (cop is alliance checker, inspector sees the full role PM).

NOC games can be good for mini-mafia games where the game is over in about 2 or 3 nights. It forces the village to logically think about the correct move in order not to screw themselves over the next day. However, in a larger game that takes over 5 nights, all it does is create a handicap for the village. The village cannot contact each other without letting the Mafia know, meaning that the Mafia becomes much more informed than the village. Now while the whole point of Mafia is to have an informed minority within an uninformed majority, it gives this majority no chance of collaborating and beating the Mafia. That in turn brings the game to a point where everything is based on luck and not smarts.

Am I saying that NOC games are bad? No, they're not. But please try to remember that the village needs to have a fighting chance from the logic perspective. If the only way that you can balance a NOC game as a host is to make the village overpowered, you should consider allowing players to contact each other outside of the game. Some people will abuse outside contact in order to find the information that they need but this is all part of the game.

Tables has a different view of NOC games, as seen here.

I quite like this introduction. However, I disagree a fair bit with what you say about NOC. Firstly, the game only comes down to luck if the town aren't willing to talk sufficiently and make their own deductions about things. Case in point: CARA mafia. Note how most of the games there are NOC, and yet they have town winning fairly frequently and nicely due to solid, sensible play. Now, perhaps that isn't true here, where a lot of players are younger (I believe) or generally don't play to such a high level (I found myself being about average in my games there), but either way, the idea remains the same in Village Leader and it does in NoC. The difference being, Village Leader hinges primarily on the competence of the cleared players, while NOC requires a number of players to be competent and deduce said information.

What I'm trying to say if you wanted a summary was: NoC requires a collaborative team effort, which the mafia needs to sabotage subtly, while VL requires good deduction and communication between the town and especially village leader, and the mafia need to make themselves privy to as much information and blend in as much as possible.

How to speak to someone on IRC in an Outside Contact game: This is more directed to someone who is timid and doesn't want to make a mistake. Take me, for example Everyone knows not to trust me. And yet, I still managed the mole the village in Pokemon Tactical Game quite nicely. The reason that I was able to do it was because I was speaking to people privately with a purpose.

Now, I don't want to give away my personal secrets on how I manage to charm pretty much everybody but I do want to quickly mention a couple of scenarios.

1) In a 2v1 style game, alliances can and probably should be made within the game. The Mafias should probably make a loose alliance with each other and even some random villagers might want to make alliances with a mafia to get rid of their common enemy. Judge the situation wisely and pick your best option.

2) If a Serial Killer/Wolf exists in a game, it's not a bad idea for that player to find a Mafia and attempt to join with them. How you go about doing this without risking your own stake in the game is up to you.

3) Mutual gain is always your best weapon. There are other ways to get what you're looking for out of a person but just remember that if you scratch my back, there's a pretty good chance that I'll scratch yours.

This is all for right now. If you'd like to bring up a point which involves strategy or roles or rules, please go right ahead. If you disagree with me, speak up loudly. I know I swear a lot in games and call many of you idiots but it's mostly because people don't manage to think straight. And that bothers me a lot. So sorry about that.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Sue Sylvester

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

The magical land of the scumhunt

EDIT: Also, this seems more like the start of a style preference debate, than an informational topic, but I suppose we can go from here.

Edited October 7, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[riariadne]

I notice how the whole first section was basically a subtle "fuck you Lightning".

[Life]

I notice how the whole first section was basically a subtle "fuck you Lightning".

Here's the thing. It's not.

[Tables]

I quite like this introduction. However, I disagree a fair bit with what you say about NOC. Firstly, the game only comes down to luck if the town aren't willing to talk sufficiently and make their own deductions about things. Case in point: CARA mafia. Note how most of the games there are NOC, and yet they have town winning fairly frequently and nicely due to solid, sensible play. Now, perhaps that isn't true here, where a lot of players are younger (I believe) or generally don't play to such a high level (I found myself being about average in my games there), but either way, the idea remains the same in Village Leader and it does in NoC. The difference being, Village Leader hinges primarily on the competence of the cleared players, while NOC requires a number of players to be competent and deduce said information.

What I'm trying to say if you wanted a summary was: NoC requires a collaborative team effort, which the mafia needs to sabotage subtly, while VL requires good deduction and communication between the town and especially village leader, and the mafia need to make themselves privy to as much information and blend in as much as possible.

[Life]

Tables, I put your point in my first post. A well formulated argument like that deserves recognition and I added it under the NOC section.

[Deliriyum]

Question: wtf is IRC

[Percivalé]

Levity's piece of advice: Don't EVER claim yourself to be the best player of ANYTHING or you die

die die die

[General Spoon]

1. I don't have time to play/host games anymore (not just on SF, but everywhere)

2. I don't find playing games with the SF userbase enjoyable anymore (been this way for a while now, in case you didn't notice)

3. I don't find hosting game with the SF userbase enjoyable anymore

This may change in the future yeah maybe in a few years when the userbase has grown up, but you'll probably leave once you realize this place isn't as fun as you thought it was when you joined and why am I ranting? I think the fundamental problem is Joshua isn't being bitched at by members anymore and I'm still ranting just ignore this, but as of now, I doubt it.

Question: wtf is IRC

I prefer Chatzilla, personally.

[Percivalé]

yeah maybe in a few years when the userbase has grown up, but you'll probably leave once you realize this place isn't as fun as you thought it was when you joined

realized it for about a year and a half now

[peener weener]

Because of... the couple last games I played in, I feel horrendously stupid.

Just... please don't... I don't... sorry ;~;