The portrayal of women and minorities in video games

[msnoodles]

Sorry if this post is too image-heavy. I just think it's an appropriate topic for visuals. Also pretty tl;dr and probably doesn't say much that you don't already know.

While I've seen it discussed a few times, this subject's rarely touched on (at least in a lot of the game forums I frequent) and I feel that it's pretty important, considering how the video game industry is beginning to carve out a much wider demographic than "15-35 white male" and... well, this is a whole other discussion, but approaching the status of "art" in the same way cinema is "art".

I could rant forever about the alienating aspect of gaming culture, but that would just come off as bitching and several anecdotes that basically boil down to "I gave up online play with voicechat because argh".

And this is easily applicable to other forms of media-- tv shows, movies, etc-- but video games don't reach such a broad consumer-base, and it's much harder then to find the exceptions to the general rule.

Right now, this is the kind of image of a female character you'd expect:

I feel kind of bad for throwing Lara in there-- her outfit isn't that ridiculous by video game standards, and I hear it wasn't the developers' intentions to trigger the MAKE LARA NUDE switch in millions of oversexed hormonal teenage boys in the 90s, but I feel like the Tomb Raider series inadvertently promotes the whole idea of "hey if I put a hot girl here, money comes out!"

But Samus totally deserves a mention: she's usually cited as the grand "exception"; when I see discussions concerning chicks in games, people bring up Samus. It's worth pointing out that Metroid Zero Mission basically rewards better playthroughs with images of Samus in increasingly skimpier outfits. Metroid is awesome and Samus is awesome, but let's be honest, the creators basically said pretty far into development "hey wouldn't it be funny if Samus was a chick?!" It's not the kind of representation I'm looking for. When Metroid: Other M was announced I was hoping for a Samus with more personality other than "space marine with tits"... I hear the game made it worse, so oh well.

Anyway, my question isn't "WHY do video games delegate the women and minorities into secondary characters/NPCs, etc, why are women portrayed this way"-- it's profitable without taking any significant risks. My argument is that to deviate from this formula wouldn't see any significant, if there'd be any at all, loss in profits.

The exceptions are usually in games in which you create your own character and the gender has little to no bearing on how the game plays out (e.g. Fallout, Fable, Mass Effect, The Elder Scrolls, etc), blank slates in the shape of a female, like Chell from Portal, or in games like most of the Fire Emblems-- while they have a shitton of issues character-wise, I have to admit the series is pretty freakin egalitarian.

(I kid, I kid... mostly)

You could probably shoot me a 20-page comprehensive list of all the exceptions to the "rule", but it wouldn't change the fact that I could probably respond with a list of games with badass white male protagonists and games with ridiculous and alienating fanservice (and combinations thereof) off the top of my head. And it'd be twice as long.

Same goes for ethnic minorities. To name a few:

Okay yeah the Final Fantasy examples are pretty ridiculous (black guy funnyman, Mr T guy) but consider this: both are single fathers, and one's handicapped. Like woahhh.

As far as hispanics go and western asians go (besides like fucking Altair)... well, are there any? And I mean playable/main characters, not NPCs etc. When it comes to LGBT characters:

Jk with the last one, though creepy fangirlness that surrounds him aside, I could probably make a good argument for it. Honestly, I'd prefer it to the heteronormative "male main character gets with hot female love interest". Especially since off the top of my head I can't think of a single confirmed LGBT character-- a main character, mind you-- and gays play games too! I skimped out on the Asian characters because they seem to see a whole lot more representation than other ethnic minorities, but I'd still like to see more.

So a few arguments against it that I've seen:

"The video game industry is a business, and you can't expect them to risk any major loss in profits for the sake of equal representation!" (see below)

"Males are subject to similar objectification as females. Most male characters are unrealistically buff and physically powerful, which most guys aspire to be, and it sets up unrealistic expectations as well." (there's a difference between striving for better health/ability and being told that your body is a commodity)

"Minorities don't play video games because the majority of them don't have the money or leisure time." (lol whaaat)

"It reflects the demographics of gamers/the world in general." (if the world=upper-class gated community or the midwest US then yes)

"It would be lame." (a Bengali transsexual space pirate would make an awesome main character, don't lie)

I can see the merit in the first argument... though considering more latino children play video games than whites it's sort of silly to use that as justification for less Latino characters in video games.

Any thoughts/arguments? Sorry for the tl;dr but I love video games way more than I ought to, but the fact that I'm a giant feminist/liberal pinko commie bastard kind of puts me at odds with a lot of the messages they seem to be conveying.

Edited October 14, 2010 by msnoodles

[Esau of Isaac]

I feel kind of bad for throwing Lara in there-- her outfit isn't that ridiculous by video game standards, and I hear it wasn't the developers' intentions to trigger the MAKE LARA NUDE switch in millions of oversexed hormonal teenage boys in the 90s, but I feel like the Tomb Raider series inadvertently promotes the whole idea of "hey if I put a hot girl here, money comes out!"

Absolute bullshit. The first part, I mean. She was created big tits and all for the purpose of being a busty femme fatale. If it wasn't the developers' intentions to make horny boys wonder how she looks naked, I have no idea what the hell they were going for when they created her.

But Samus totally deserves a mention: she's usually cited as the grand "exception"; when I see discussions concerning chicks in games, people bring up Samus. It's worth pointing out that Metroid Zero Mission basically rewards better playthroughs with images of Samus in increasingly skimpier outfits. Metroid is awesome and Samus is awesome, but let's be honest, the creators basically said pretty far into development "hey wouldn't it be funny if Samus was a chick?!" It's not the kind of representation I'm looking for. When Metroid: Other M was announced I was hoping for a Samus with more personality other than "space marine with tits"... I hear the game made it worse, so oh well.

She had personality and whined relatively often. She has feelings, but no one liked it because everyone thinks it's sexist for a woman to be in a game if they're not completely emotionally independent and tough as nails.

You could probably shoot me a 20-page comprehensive list of all the exceptions to the "rule", but it wouldn't change the fact that I could probably respond with a list of games with badass white male protagonists and games with ridiculous and alienating fanservice (and combinations thereof) off the top of my head. And it'd be twice as long.

Because games tend to be marketed toward a male audience, most of which are white (in cases where they are definitively "white"). And huge surprise, males tend to like tits and cool action.

Okay yeah the Final Fantasy examples are pretty ridiculous (black guy funnyman, Mr T guy) but consider this: both are single fathers, and one's handicapped. Like woahhh.

How the hell is Sazh generically ethnic?

Jk with the last one, though creepy fangirlness that surrounds him aside, I could probably make a good argument for it. Honestly, I'd prefer it to the heteronormative "male main character gets with hot female love interest". Especially since off the top of my head I can't think of a single confirmed LGBT character-- a main character, mind you-- and gays play games too! I skimped out on the Asian characters because they seem to see a whole lot more representation than other ethnic minorities, but I'd still like to see more.

Why? Why look for this shit in videogames left and right? Videogames are like the last safe haven I have where people aren't endlessly bitching that some group doesn't receive proper representation in some pixelated form.

So a few arguments against it that I've seen:

"The video game industry is a business, and you can't expect them to risk any major loss in profits for the sake of equal representation!" (see below)

"Males are subject to similar objectification as females. Most male characters are unrealistically buff and physically powerful, which most guys aspire to be, and it sets up unrealistic expectations as well." (there's a difference between striving for better health/ability and being told that your body is a commodity)

"Minorities don't play video games because the majority of them don't have the money or leisure time." (lol whaaat)

"It reflects the demographics of gamers/the world in general." (if the world=upper-class gated community or the midwest US then yes)

"It would be lame." (a Bengali transsexual space pirate would make an awesome main character, don't lie)

I can see the merit in the first argument... though considering more latino children play video games than whites it's sort of silly to use that as justification for less Latino characters in video games.

Characters are this or that race because it's most convenient, not because of a diabolical plan to leave homosexuals and transgender people out of the loop, not to mention various minorities. Sometimes, the appeal to a specific demographic is more plainly evident than in other cases. In such situations, it's clearly for a reason, but I wouldn't say all games do this.

How would a game-maker even reliably go about putting a transgender person into a videogame and not fuck it up and offend someone? Why would they? What's the point?

Edited October 14, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[msnoodles]

Absolute bullshit. The first part, I mean. She was created big tits and all for the purpose of being a busty femme fatale. If it wasn't the developers' intentions to make horny boys wonder how she looks naked, I have no idea what the hell they were going for when they created her.

I don't necessarily buy their "woah guys I don't know why Lara's a pinup model now but we didn't mean it!" either-- even if I give them the benefit of the doubt, it doesn't directly contradict my issues with it.

She had personality and whined relatively often. She has feelings, but no one liked it because everyone thinks it's sexist for a woman to be in a game if they're not completely emotionally independent and tough as nails.

See, I don't like this either. I could rattle off a huge list of video games with whiny ass male main characters (the later Final Fantasy games come to mind) and while they do receive their fair share of criticism, it seems like the majority of these kinds of complaints are geared towards female characters. Or "I don't like her"="mary-sue", etc.

Because games tend to be marketed toward a male audience, most of which are white (in cases where they are definitively "white"). And huge surprise, males tend to like tits and cool action.

I don't see the point of this sentence since I think I've said twice "it's profitable!", so you're not really adding anything new to the table here. :|

How the hell is Sazh generically ethnic?

These weren't really examples of generically ethnic characters? I mean, if you twist your argument far enough you could say Rochelle's a stereotypical "sassy powerful black woman", but she's really just an inquisitive, driven journalist who happens to be blessed with zombie asskickery. Garcian's clean-cut and intelligent, so he might fit into some "professional black man" trope, but I wouldn't say that's generically ethnic either. Michael LeRoi in a former English lit student/cabbie/hitman/VOODOO WARRIOR so he hardly qualifies either. I know the localizers for FF7 gave Barrett the Mr. T shit and hear it wasn't so in the Japanese version (I don't have anything to back that up right now), but when you look past that he's a pretty likable character and does get his time to develop/shine, at least compared to some token minorities in other games. So no, I don't think I ever implied that Sazh is generically ethnic-- in fact, he's my absolute favorite character in the game. :)

Why? Why look for this shit in videogames left and right? Videogames are like the last safe haven I have where people aren't endlessly bitching that some group doesn't receive proper representation in some pixelated form.

It's interesting that you'd word it like that, though you might rescind it when I ask this. What's so threatening about the notion that there should be more video games with goddamn latino main characters? I know gays and Mexicans and black people and western asians who love the shit out of video games, and it's probably counterproductive to the industry to pretend like they don't exist.

Characters are this or that race because it's most convenient, not because of a diabolical plan to leave homosexuals and transgender people out of the loop, not to mention various minorities. Sometimes, the appeal to a specific demographic is more plainly evident than in other cases. In such situations, it's clearly for a reason, but I wouldn't say all games do this.

You think I'm attributing malice to this problem where I'm not. I think I've said around 3 times that I recognize the industry as a business at the foremost-- at the same time, I've never seen anyone explain how it'd be less profitable for diversity to exist with the characters, especially when it'd probably better reflect the whole ethnic landscape of its consumers, lol.

How would a game-maker even reliably go about putting a transgender person into a videogame and not fuck it up and offend someone? Why would they? What's the point?

Fuck up in what way? By adding some bullshit like "oh yeah transgendered people all belong to a cult dedicated to reviving some arcane space gorilla that'd been dead and encased in hardened lava for the past millennium "? A character's ethnicity/sexuality/etc doesn't have to be their defining trait-- it might add a new layer of hardship, or maybe not, depending on the setting, but if your game has a transgendered character who also throws temper tantrums over stupid shit or is too trusting or any part of their personality, nobody can come out and say AHA TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE ARE NOTHING LIKE THAT!

Why? Why not? If this particular game's trying to strike a balance between storytelling and gameplay, and the fact that the main character is transgendered is a part of the story, then it raises the question of why there's any minority in any story. You might as well ask "why should this character be black"? It happens, and the companies aren't hurting for it.

[Kanami]

"TA" answers most of your questions. It doesn't matter how many more latino children play games, the creators are directing the game at a specific group of people, from a specific race. While this TA may involve and intrigue others, when you think of the latest Final Fantasy or Shoot'em up games the mental image that comes up is a caucasian teenage male with a hoodie mashing on buttons.

As for the appearance? With burly muscular studs or scantily clothed women? Sex sells, I'm sure you've heard it before. People would much rather play as a attractive character then a man wearing makeup going "Uwee hee hee!" (For anything other then a joke). You also want the gamer to connect with the main character. "Screw humanity, I'm going to destroy the world" might be a fun idea for some, but more often then not games are tailored for those who want to save the world from this "big baddy" who's trying to wipe out mankind.

In that sense a gay, lesbian or transexual character isn't something the "majority" can connect with, while an individual may not have animosity for the LGBT community, having "your character" (which is in essence you within the videogame) oggling another man backside isn't something people would enjoy. It's not exclusive to appearance, I personally wouldn't play a game which has a main character which cusses in every sentence simply because I'm not a fan of swearing.

Prefer: Can you do anything right? You're useless

Don't Prefer: F**k, you useless piece of shit, Can't f**king do anything right you little turd?

Stereotypes are stereotypes, and that's what they're there for. I'm more of a Japanese gamer then a US gamer, but the use of stereotypes exists in both. For example if a girl has glasses, for some reason she's also got huge breasts. And is often a clutz. Whereas the US seems to associate women wearing glasses with intelligence and labcoats. I don't see the issue in using stereotypes in games, being offended by it's use is going a bit far. Despite what some like to think game characters don't have feelings, and they don't respond whether you respect or hate them.

(Interestingly, the opposite occurs for males, US four-eyed males tend to be nerdy, weak-willed and the typical "bullied kid" type, though tech savvy intelligence is well established these days. While Japan four-eyed males are using quiet, intelligent "play it cool" types.)

How would a game-maker even reliably go about putting a transgender person into a videogame and not fuck it up and offend someone? Why would they? What's the point?

This

I can already hear the stupid mother of some gay kid complaining Adam Lambert's Rainbow Six, was the cause of her son turning gay. And how the game deprived her of grandchildren, and destroyed her relationship with her son. Which prevents her from sleeping at night, which has made her ill. Which has.... it goes on and on.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Kanami

[Anouleth]

"TA" answers most of your questions. It doesn't matter how many more latino children play games, the creators are directing the game at a specific group of people, from a specific race. While this TA may involve and intrigue others, when you think of the latest Final Fantasy or Shoot'em up games the mental image that comes up is a caucasian teenage male with a hoodie mashing on buttons.

It's still dumb. Nobody goes out and buys a computer game to look at t&a. Why should they when porn exists?

1. Mario (240 million)[180]

2. Pokémon (200 million)[181]

3. Tetris (125 million)[74]

4. The Sims (125 million)[182]

5. Need for Speed (100 million)[183]

6. Final Fantasy (97 million)[184]

7. Madden NFL (75 million)[185]

8. Sonic the Hedgehog (70 million)[186]

9. Grand Theft Auto (70 million)[187]

10. FIFA (65 million)[188]

Which games here have lots of t&a? The only ones that even come close are Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto. But clearly, people don't buy Final Fantasy because it has titties in it. Otherwise, the earlier titles in which you could not see the titties clearly would not have succeeded. And clearly, Grand Theft Auto's success has nothing to do with the women sprinkled around, and everything to do with the massive city that they're sprinkled over.

Clearly, this is a bad strategy for vg companies to continue.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Kanami]

It's still dumb. Nobody goes out and buys a computer game to look at t&a. Why should they when porn exists?

..... You don't look at the TA, you are the TA..... Whoops, thought I'd stated what TA was, TA=Target Audience, obviously I hadn't. Just out of curiosity though what's "t&a"?

[Inactive Account]

Clarification: "T&A" = shortening of "tits and ass."

I'm not sure how much they can really hide behind the "catering to our audiences" excuse anymore, because the audiences are growing more diverse. Sure, there are main demographics still, but catering to one demographic too much tends to drive away others-- less money. It's getting a little better, I think, but not enough.

Also, I find the current standard of "girls' games" to be obnoxious. Sure, some examples in the genre are good, but the overall pinkness and tendency towards romantic emphasis/housework/fashion/ponies is a turn-off. (Ponies are evil little bitch animals, but that's beside the point.)

I'm going to stop myself before I somehow end up on a gender binary rant, but yeah, I agree that this is an issue.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Kiryn

[Byte2222]

This issue is something I feel quite strongly about, particularly women, and is one of the things I like most about Fire Emblem: you get a part of many characters, including women and in-universe minorities, and they are all on roughly equal terms even if there's discrimination in the rest of the world (see: Tellius). On the subject of women I think that game developers need to realise that not only is their attitude excluding a chunk of prospective audience in a way that acts as a vicious cycle but it is quite unnecessary. I am of the opinion that sex should ideally be the last thing on people's minds and that you shouldn't encourage thoughts that can harm gender relations so badly, no matter how profitable it might be.

I don't know enough about Tomb Raider to comment on Lara but I am a Metroid fan and am overall unimpressed with how Other M characterised Samus. I will say, though, that although I can see a case for sexism (there's a surprising amount of cutscene time Samus spends needing help from someone else i.e. a man) the problems lie in general characterisation, scripting and voice acting. That game had story issues IMO.

On the subject of ethnic minorities I say: sure, why not? There's really nothing to lose here, you're only changing a few physical features but the rest of the characterisation needs to be strong or the move will do more harm than good. The introduction will have to be good as well: ethnicity will be noticed very quickly and you need to head off viewer preconceptions pretty quickly if you are to keep your less... accepting... audience.

On the subject of LGBT I have to say that I can see a strong case against it. There are a few people who are vehemently opposed to the whole principle and, I imagine, a lot of people who could be at least uncomfortable with the principle. This area can easily inflame the audience on its own and if you were to include a LGBT character you need to handle the trait very carefully and have additional characterisation so the character isn't a spectacle.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Byte2222

[Kanami]

Clarification: "T&A" = shortening of "tits and ass."

Men <_<

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I somehow missed msnoodles second post, probably timing issues. Anyway.

It's interesting that you'd word it like that, though you might rescind it when I ask this. What's so threatening about the notion that there should be more video games with goddamn latino main characters? I know gays and Mexicans and black people and western asians who love the shit out of video games, and it's probably counterproductive to the industry to pretend like they don't exist.

This combined with the OP seems like a rant on why there should be more ethnicities represented in games. And if that's the case I'm going to agree with Esau, I listen to enough crap about "race" in real life. I'm fine with something like the Laguz, I'm fine with pointy eared elves and ugly green orcs (Though I don't like Orcs and elves) I'm also fine with black or dark skinned characters. What I'm not fine with is people whining that their ethnicity is under represented. Cause frankly, I don't want my games to be turned into a battleground for the "racial debate." It's everywhere else, spare the gaming industry <_< If a black protagonist makes you happier, you're not much different to the "white protagonists" you're complaining.

This is a forum, this is a place for discussion, and because of that, I don't mind you voicing your opinion of wanting more ethnicities implanted into games. I don't like the saying "If it isn't broken fix it" because there's always room for improvement. Changing the ethnicity of characters for the sake of representation though isn't an improvement. （Or a mistake). The day people start getting complaints like this through to the gaming industry is the day a game will be critiqued for not including a diverse range of ethnicities <_<

I'm not sure how much they can really hide behind the "catering to our audiences" excuse anymore, because the audiences are growing more diverse. Sure, there are main demographics still, but catering to one demographic too much tends to drive away others-- less money. It's getting a little better, I think, but not enough.

Also, I find the current standard of "girls' games" to be obnoxious. Sure, some examples in the genre are good, but the overall pinkness and tendency towards romantic emphasis/housework/fashion/ponies is a turn-off. (Ponies are evil little bitch animals, but that's beside the point.)

My opinion is, if you're going to by a game because of the ethnicities represented in it... well it's bad enough at the moment with crappy games with awesome graphics getting praised. I don't need to see praise for a game which was racially diverse. That is NOT a important factor of a game being good/bad. If you're looking at games and thinking "why can't he be black/asian/blue" you're probably harboring some sort of racial prejudice/dissatisfaction yourself.

As for girl games.... could you list a few? Only girl games I've seen (that aren't in an asian dialect) are directed at 6 to 8 year olds. :/

(there's a surprising amount of cutscene time Samus spends needing help from someone else i.e. a man)

I really fail to see a problem with that. If Samus was male and needed help from said character would it be an issue? This is taking things a bit too far. It's just spinning the problem 180, and saying a woman can't receive help from a man, which gives us the typical emotionless, tough-as-nails type characters.

Furthermore, I still see men at the forefront of fighting, whether it be brawls or warfare there's a stronger image of a man fighting a man then there is a woman fighting a man, or even a woman against a woman. While there are several other factors (a notable being financial status) women tend to punch out less then men. Us women prefer to verbally abuse you and talk behind others backs. Yes this is a stereotype, it is also however pretty accurate if you look at crime statistics.

On the subject of ethnic minorities I say: sure, why not? There's really nothing to lose here, you're only changing a few physical features but the rest of the characterisation needs to be strong or the move will do more harm than good. The introduction will have to be good as well: ethnicity will be noticed very quickly and you need to head off viewer preconceptions pretty quickly if you are to keep your less... accepting... audience.

Characterization is important regardless of ethnicity, but I see your point here. Personally, I don't know how I'd feel about a dark skinned protagonist, I've never been inclined to buy them, so I might be a member of the "less accepting audience" though I attribute it mainly to the types of games they star in, drugs, money, murder etc. In my defense though, I also don't own any white protagonists games which have similar mechanics. I'm more a fantasy world gamer and have stayed well clear of things like GTA.

@Overall

In terms of race though I do have one problem, (though it's a genre I don't buy in). Bloody American soldiers, I don't care how good your training is, one soldiers is not going to take out an entire platoon out by himself <_< I know it's the nature of games to have the controlled character be almighty and powerful. But I don't need to see games conveying political messages at me. <_< Probably a contributing factor as to why I don't like those types of games. It'd be appreciated if race and ethnicity could stay the hell away from my gaming experience.

*Wondering when we'll get a game where we have to infiltrate the head office of the FBI, find documents which send you off to the Pentagon on a murderous rampage, followed by lighting the White house on fire and making Miss Liberty go boom!*

Would I buy such a game? Certainly not, shooting games=eww, but if that isn't politically heavy enough for you, go buy some game where you shoot bearded men with turbans <_< I'm sure both games will be equally as entertaining for different people

Edited October 14, 2010 by Kanami

[Inactive Account]

I somehow missed msnoodles second post, probably timing issues. Anyway.

This combined with the OP seems like a rant on why there should be more ethnicities represented in games. And if that's the case I'm going to agree with Esau, I listen to enough crap about "race" in real life. I'm fine with something like the Laguz, I'm fine with pointy eared elves and ugly green orcs (Though I don't like Orcs and elves) I'm also fine with black or dark skinned characters. What I'm not fine with is people whining that their ethnicity is under represented. Cause frankly, I don't want my games to be turned into a battleground for the "racial debate." It's everywhere else, spare the gaming industry <_< If a black protagonist makes you happier, you're not much different to the "white protagonists" you're complaining.

This is a forum, this is a place for discussion, and because of that, I don't mind you voicing your opinion of wanting more ethnicities implanted into games. I don't like the saying "If it isn't broken fix it" because there's always room for improvement. Changing the ethnicity of characters for the sake of representation though isn't an improvement. （Or a mistake). The day people start getting complaints like this through to the gaming industry is the day a game will be critiqued for not including a diverse range of ethnicities <_<

My opinion is, if you're going to by a game because of the ethnicities represented in it... well it's bad enough at the moment with crappy games with awesome graphics getting praised. I don't need to see praise for a game which was racially diverse. That is NOT a important factor of a game being good/bad. If you're looking at games and thinking "why can't he be black/asian/blue" you're probably harboring some sort of racial prejudice/dissatisfaction yourself.

The issue, I think, isn't so much of "X is underrepresented" but rather "usually when X is represented, it's a stereotype." If I belong to some minority, I may not necessarily be looking to see people who look like me in the game, but when I do see them, I'm not going to react well if they're walking stereotypes. Maybe I'll still buy and play the game, but it does raise the probability that I won't. This is one of the issues I have with the usual portrayal of women; I'm not buying a game to look at large amounts of bouncing female flesh, I don't particularly want to see that really, and there's a separate genre for that anyway, so what is it doing in this action/adventure/strategy/shooter/what-have-you? Maybe the game has a premise, story, mechanic or whatever that I like, but past a certain level of fanservice, no amount of other appeal is going to make me want to buy that game. And then they get less money. Maybe some perv then buys it for the fanservice, canceling that, but ultimately, there are more females in existence than male perverts... somewhere along the line they're going to start losing.

As for girl games.... could you list a few? Only girl games I've seen (that aren't in an asian dialect) are directed at 6 to 8 year olds. :/

...That is actually another can of worms, in that most female-targeted games are for the younger set. Apparently my X-chromosomes make me stop wanting to play games past a certain age?

But certain games in multiple age groups are marketed more at females, even if they're not outright stated as such, and end up being lauded as games for females. Lots of casual games, fitness-oriented games, then you've got Cooking Mama-type sims, pet games, pony games, anything with Barbie or a lookalike on it. "Girl-oriented" spinoffs of series that, while usually starring a male, are more neutral (hello Super PMS Princess Peach). Really it's the sentiment that we need a seperate genre for girls at all, I think. I remember when I was little and they had gender-separated fast-food toys. Hot Wheels cars for the boys, mini-Barbies for the girls. Cars aren't necessarily gendered, but apparently I'm supposed to like dolls more. Now, strategy or adventure isn't really gendered, but apparently I'm supposed to like little puzzle games and raising virtual puppies/kids/gardens more. Why does the industry feel the need to give us a separate genre? Granted, some of the games within the genre are fun, but I don't really see why they should be set aside as "for girls".

I really fail to see a problem with that. If Samus was male and needed help from said character would it be an issue? This is taking things a bit too far. It's just spinning the problem 180, and saying a woman can't receive help from a man, which gives us the typical emotionless, tough-as-nails type characters.

This is older and more prevalent then just games, I think. Generally when a stereotype exists people try and go hard in the opposite direction to avert it. Women have been stereotyped forever as weak, emotional, and needing protection. People think that in order to avert that, a person or character has to be unbreakable. The "must be unbreakable" standard has applied to males forever too, and it's really harmful to everyone, but even when we're seeing it averted more and more in media these days, they avert it more for males. With the history of gender, I guess it's the guys' turn to be allowed to be emotional, or something?

Edited October 14, 2010 by Kiryn

[IntegerZero]

I feel kind of bad for throwing Lara in there-- her outfit isn't that ridiculous by video game standards, and I hear it wasn't the developers' intentions to trigger the MAKE LARA NUDE switch in millions of oversexed hormonal teenage boys in the 90s, but I feel like the Tomb Raider series inadvertently promotes the whole idea of "hey if I put a hot girl here, money comes out!"

But Samus totally deserves a mention: she's usually cited as the grand "exception"; when I see discussions concerning chicks in games, people bring up Samus. It's worth pointing out that Metroid Zero Mission basically rewards better playthroughs with images of Samus in increasingly skimpier outfits. Metroid is awesome and Samus is awesome, but let's be honest, the creators basically said pretty far into development "hey wouldn't it be funny if Samus was a chick?!" It's not the kind of representation I'm looking for. When Metroid: Other M was announced I was hoping for a Samus with more personality other than "space marine with tits"... I hear the game made it worse, so oh well.

The exceptions are usually in games in which you create your own character and the gender has little to no bearing on how the game plays out (e.g. Fallout, Fable, Mass Effect, The Elder Scrolls, etc), blank slates in the shape of a female, like Chell from Portal, or in games like most of the Fire Emblems-- while they have a shitton of issues character-wise, I have to admit the series is pretty freakin egalitarian.

First of all, the pictures. You chose some very bad examples. The first one I cannot comment on, so I'll give you that. Second Ivy belongs to Soul Calibur. Soul Calibur is a fighter. Fighters almost always has fan service. Big deal. It comes with the genre. You have to admit however, females do kick ass in said fighters.

My first problem is Riku. Her clothing may be skimpy yes, but you need to take account of where she lives. She lives in tropical regions and routinely dives underwater for different reasons. Her outfit is not a problem. Riku shouldn't be on the list. Very few FF females should be on these kinds of lists.

And Lara shouldn't of been there at all. Nude cheats and hacks/mods do not count. Period. Big breasts do not make them instant fan service.

Lastly, Samaus. SHe isn't the Grand Exception. She wears a enormous mechanical god mode suit. It has got be hot in there at times. What she wears inside should be light. Honestly, you forgot to take account that she has the suit, not mentioning the environments she will be in with said suit on. Also, Team Gaiden made Other M. Go look at the other titles they made. They are notorious for fan service.

Anyway, my question isn't "WHY do video games delegate the women and minorities into secondary characters/NPCs, etc, why are women portrayed this way"-- it's profitable without taking any significant risks. My argument is that to deviate from this formula wouldn't see any significant, if there'd be any at all, loss in profits.

I will be honest. It used to be profitable to use women and minorities as secondary characters. Back then the Game Industry was young and learning. Nowadays, they are learning otherwise. The previous generation of coders is starting to move on (The ones that did all the stuff you're ranting about.) and the newer generation is taking its place. And because of that, many of the minorities/women are starting to get more face time. It takes time. It's not something that can happen instantly.

Okay yeah the Final Fantasy examples are pretty ridiculous (black guy funnyman, Mr T guy) but consider this: both are single fathers, and one's handicapped. Like woahhh.

As far as hispanics go and western asians go (besides like fucking Altair)... well, are there any? And I mean playable/main characters, not NPCs etc.

Especially since off the top of my head I can't think of a single confirmed LGBT character-- a main character, mind you-- and gays play games too!

First of all, what's wrong with a funny black guy. I would be more offended if he was trying to be "gangster." Also, Mr T guy, was obviously based off Mr T. And what is wrong with being single fathers or handicapped. That covers a minority that you are complaining doesn't get covered enough.

Also, two generations ago, we didn't have the technology to show the difference between white, asian, and hispanic. We just couldn't That kin of technology came around the previous generation, but the previous generation of coders and designers was still in charge. Now we are starting to see more and more of these different groups of people pop up. It all takes time.

And also, LGBT characters are hard to work with and are a tough subject. LGBT sunjects are touchy in many countries (America especially) right now, and many of the countries are sorting the problems out. Not to mention, it can be hard to make any of the said characters when you yourself are not one of them. Honestly, after problems regarding LGPT people are sorted out, they will start becoming more common in Video Games I'm sure.

So a few arguments against it that I've seen:

1)"The video game industry is a business, and you can't expect them to risk any major loss in profits for the sake of equal representation!" (see below)

2)"Males are subject to similar objectification as females. Most male characters are unrealistically buff and physically powerful, which most guys aspire to be, and it sets up unrealistic expectations as well." (there's a difference between striving for better health/ability and being told that your body is a commodity)

3)"Minorities don't play video games because the majority of them don't have the money or leisure time." (lol whaaat)

4)"It reflects the demographics of gamers/the world in general." (if the world=upper-class gated community or the midwest US then yes)

5)"It would be lame." (a Bengali transsexual space pirate would make an awesome main character, don't lie)

Any thoughts/arguments? Sorry for the tl;dr but I love video games way more than I ought to, but the fact that I'm a giant feminist/liberal pinko commie bastard kind of puts me at odds with a lot of the messages they seem to be conveying.

1)The VG industry is a business, and like any other, it evolves. Two generations ago is completely different than what it is now.

2)They are. Neither gender is not immune to it. Guys are buff and girls are shapely. Many people aspire to be either. I see and hear it all the time. It plays to a fantasy that many have.

3)Where the hell did you get this from? Sounds like a crappy source.

4)Again, where did you come across this?

5)For a third time, where?

[Mikethfc]

Well across the games most of the time she's in Samus will be wearing her armour, so you can't really use one cutscene to point to sexism.

Also its not like Namco only do that to women, if you look at Rock or Voldo they aren't that in too much clothing either.

its not that I don't see your point, just that you've got the norm and the exception the wrong way round, based on the games i've been playing recently anyway.

also to be extra pedantic think Vamp is straight. (Originally I had Romanian there because I thought you listed him as Asian)

lastly your view on the portrayal of minorities, doesn't suggest you've picked up a sports game of sorts lately.

Edited October 14, 2010 by mikethfc

[Anouleth]

Clarification: "T&A" = shortening of "tits and ass."

I'm not sure how much they can really hide behind the "catering to our audiences" excuse anymore, because the audiences are growing more diverse. Sure, there are main demographics still, but catering to one demographic too much tends to drive away others-- less money. It's getting a little better, I think, but not enough.

Audiences have always been diverse. How many people played Tetris? umpteen millions, and I'm sure that many were women. But recently, games have been more and more directed towards men. When the Wii came out, it tapped into this 'invisible demographic' of women who had stopped playing computer games. And that is part of the reason for its success.

Also, I find the current standard of "girls' games" to be obnoxious. Sure, some examples in the genre are good, but the overall pinkness and tendency towards romantic emphasis/housework/fashion/ponies is a turn-off. (Ponies are evil little bitch animals, but that's beside the point.)

Because the people who made them are idiots. Look at the top three on that list I posted. Mario, Pokemon, and Tetris. These are all franchises that appeal to women. They do not need to do it with 'tricks' like putting in ponies or fashion or housework. They are simply good on their own merits. Obviously, women are a lot more discriminating than men when it comes to buying computer games!

Edited October 14, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Meteor]

Characters who are sexually desirable will keep the player's attention longer. They longer they play the game, the more likely they are to think highly of it, and buy more games from that company. So the women stay slutty and the men stay buff. Sure, it could be toned down, but it's a video game, an no one really wants to play as an average Joe/Jane when they could be superhuman.

From a storytelling point, it makes sense a single races would constitute the majority of the characters, since groups tend to stick to their own. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to have a random assortment of characters just for the sake of diversity. Is there any real point of making the characters have a variety of skin colors?

Edited October 14, 2010 by Meteor

[Inactive Account]

Oh boy. Big long post justifying skimpy outfits. I suppose I should have seen it coming.

Fighters almost always has fan service. Big deal. It comes with the genre.

Why does it come with the genre? It has no reason to. This is exactly what we're talking about. Why is this extra element of skin added to a game that's got nothing to do with it? And since you've justified some other instances of skimpy, skintight clothes with potentially realistic reasons: Okay, tight might give you some advantage in a fight, because there's not as much for the opponent to grab onto, and if it fits properly it won't constrict you. But cleavage hanging out all over? No way in hell would anyone who actually knew what they were doing let their boobs hang out during a fight. The bouncing, the extra grab targets... Most importantly, none of this is necessary to make the games fun.

Very few FF females should be on these kinds of lists.

Disagree. Some off the FF females have reason to not wear very much, but most don't. Any physical fighter, for one, doesn't want to leave so much vulnerability; a lot of the others, magic users and such, who go around in bikinis with skirts, don't have any sort of climate justification. Try again.

And Lara shouldn't of been there at all. Nude cheats and hacks/mods do not count. Period. Big breasts do not make them instant fan service.

Tight clothes, yada yada blah. Short-shorts make no sense for running around exploring (don't tell me 'heat' again, there's the matter of protection from underbrush, dirt, not to mention pockets). And a big chest is fanservice when there's a lot of attention drawn to it.

I will be honest. It used to be profitable to use women and minorities as secondary characters. Back then the Game Industry was young and learning. Nowadays, they are learning otherwise. The previous generation of coders is starting to move on (The ones that did all the stuff you're ranting about.) and the newer generation is taking its place. And because of that, many of the minorities/women are starting to get more face time. It takes time. It's not something that can happen instantly.

I do agree that there seems to be a positive shift going on here. It's a bit disappointingly slow and late, though.

First of all, what's wrong with a funny black guy. I would be more offended if he was trying to be "gangster." Also, Mr T guy, was obviously based off Mr T. And what is wrong with being single fathers or handicapped. That covers a minority that you are complaining doesn't get covered enough.

It's harmful when it starts to hit stereotypes. "Jolly black guy" is a stereotype. I don't know, maybe stereotyped people want to be taken seriously for a change? Media presentation of a stereotype never helps that.

From a storytelling point, it makes sense a single races would constitute the majority of the characters, since groups tend to stick to their own. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to have a random assortment of characters just for the sake of diversity. Is there any real point of making the characters have a variety of skin colors?

Again, it's not so much the lack of diversity (though it would be nice, it makes the game's world more relatable) but rather the fact that so often when we do see minorities, they're just caricatures for the most part.

[Life]

Disagree. Some off the FF females have reason to not wear very much, but most don't. Any physical fighter, for one, doesn't want to leave so much vulnerability; a lot of the others, magic users and such, who go around in bikinis with skirts, don't have any sort of climate justification. Try again.

Case in point: Adult Rydia and Rosa from FFIV.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Sue Sylvester

[Swordsalmon]

I mean, if you twist your argument far enough you could say Rochelle's a stereotypical "sassy powerful black woman", but she's really just an inquisitive, driven journalist who happens to be blessed with zombie asskickery.

It's neither; Rochelle is a vapid husk of a character without any redeeming factors. She's an Aimbot, nothing more.

Also, there's fanservice for both genders. Just look at all the gay fanfiction written by girls nowadays. ;) And I'd rather just have little fanservice at all; give my characters some armor or something!

Edited October 14, 2010 by Swordsalmon

[Inactive Account]

The existence of fanfiction does not necessarily indicate the presence of fanservice in the original work; look at the Kingdom Hearts fandom. There's a ludicrous amount of fanfiction (mostly from female fans) but the games have E ratings and do not show that much skin (admittedly some of the outfits are on the tight side).

And yeah, an excess of fanservice in general is obnoxious; it's just more commonly the female characters that provide it. I don't mind a few instances of either gender, but when there's a lot of it, or a character that's basically constant fanservice... not appealing. Most genres of game are (theoretically) supposed to focus on elements other than sex appeal.

[Meteor]

Again, it's not so much the lack of diversity (though it would be nice, it makes the game's world more relatable) but rather the fact that so often when we do see minorities, they're just caricatures for the most part.

What exactly is your is your point? Why should the developers care about that?

[Inactive Account]

What exactly is your is your point? Why should the developers care about that?

It's generally unacceptable to show stereotypical caricatures of minorities in other media these days. Why would games be any different?

Even going back to money, the more groups they offend, the less likely they are to get money.

[msnoodles]

Hoo boy, here we go.

In that sense a gay, lesbian or transexual character isn't something the "majority" can connect with, while an individual may not have animosity for the LGBT community, having "your character" (which is in essence you within the videogame) oggling another man backside isn't something people would enjoy. It's not exclusive to appearance, I personally wouldn't play a game which has a main character which cusses in every sentence simply because I'm not a fan of swearing.

Prefer: Can you do anything right? You're useless

Don't Prefer: F**k, you useless piece of shit, Can't f**king do anything right you little turd?

Which assumes a gay character would be oggling some other dude's tush? Some guys are just... gay. You probably are personally acquainted with tons of homosexuals who you assume to be straight, but you don't know because they don't fit into the stereotypical image of a homosexual.

Despite what some like to think game characters don't have feelings, and they don't respond whether you respect or hate them.

I'm not sure why you had to throw this in here. Nobody's worried about offending fictional characters, but they take issue with what they represent.

Also, I find the current standard of "girls' games" to be obnoxious.

Agreed. Well, I have no problem with excessively saccharine or otherwise "girly" games (stoked for Kirby's Epic Yarn which seems sooooo cute), but the games exclusively marketed towards girls seem to be inferior from a purely gameplay standpoint-- cheap, generic, throwaway shovelware. I guess that's why I like what Nintendo's doing-- the games aren't necessarily geared towards either gender or aggressively pandering to a common demographic, as pointed out by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth (who also has an awesome name if it's in reference to that ridiculous line in FF8).

and is one of the things I like most about Fire Emblem: you get a part of many characters, including women and in-universe minorities, and they are all on roughly equal terms even if there's discrimination in the rest of the world (see: Tellius)

Exactly-- like it'd be nice for there to be more "ethnic minorities" in general (ala the awesomeness that is Devdan) but I also have to bear in mind that it's a Japanese series and it's pretty good about this kind of stuff compared to other games that follow a similar style. I also like that the women (mostly) wear sensible armor and have roughly the same degree of agency as the men.

I listen to enough crap about "race" in real life. I'm fine with something like the Laguz, I'm fine with pointy eared elves and ugly green orcs (Though I don't like Orcs and elves)

There seems to be a whole lot of issue with the fact that you have to put up with people whining about underrepresentation. Honestly, if you can't sympathize with their lack of representation, I can't really sympathize with your feeling of inconvenience, because I feel like the former is 100x more important than the latter.

Cause frankly, I don't want my games to be turned into a battleground for the "racial debate." It's everywhere else, spare the gaming industry

Minorities play video games too.

Changing the ethnicity of characters for the sake of representation though isn't an improvement. （Or a mistake). The day people start getting complaints like this through to the gaming industry is the day a game will be critiqued for not including a diverse range of ethnicities

... wait, what? Nobody said they wanted an established white character to be black, so I have no clue how to respond to this. A black kid playing video games might see black characters shoved into comic relief/wisecracking sidekick/generic npc roles and wonder why there are so few games with black main characters. There's nothing militant, resentful, or unnecessary about this sentiment; if I lived in a country roughly divided up between green, purple, and blue people, and I'm a blue person, I'd wonder why the majority of important video game characters are green. It's an elementary oversimplification, but the core of your argument seems to be "GET OVER IT" and I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to frame mine. There are games where ethnic or otherwise diversity wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, e.g. if it was set in a certain time-period in Europe, or like Fire Emblem draws a lot of inspiration from it-- but even then, series like TES will let you modify your character's race, skin color et al, which is pretty awesome considering it's high fantasy.

My opinion is, if you're going to by a game because of the ethnicities represented in it... well it's bad enough at the moment with crappy games with awesome graphics getting praised. I don't need to see praise for a game which was racially diverse. That is NOT a important factor of a game being good/bad. If you're looking at games and thinking "why can't he be black/asian/blue" you're probably harboring some sort of racial prejudice/dissatisfaction yourself.

Nobody is. The gaming club at my high school was predominately made up of mexicans/black kids (my high school was in general) who felt similarly about this issue when I brought it up, but if you ask any one of them whether they'd select their games based on ethnicity alone, I can guarantee every single one of them would say gameplay matters most to them. Or at least most of them-- some are in it for the story. And if story-driven games are going to exist, you can't really apply the lazy "oh well mass-marketing" crap to it.

Personally, I don't know how I'd feel about a dark skinned protagonist, I've never been inclined to buy them, so I might be a member of the "less accepting audience" though I attribute it mainly to the types of games they star in, drugs, money, murder etc.

I think that's unfortunate because there are a few games with main or important black characters that are nothing of the sort you described, like Shadow Man and killer7 in my above examples. I wouldn't word it the way you did, but I have played much less games with black protagonists simply because less of them exist, and I think that should be changed.

The issue, I think, isn't so much of "X is underrepresented" but rather "usually when X is represented, it's a stereotype."

For me, it's both. I think very few people are actively choosing video games based on the ethnicity of the main character, but they aren't really afforded the choice! When you get tired of certain tropes, you like to see them subverted for a reason-- to have a badass brawler main character who also happens to be Mexican would not only be something different, but there's really no reason not to have one and maybe it'd start a trend of, hey, the Hero Isn't Always White (I'm talking about both Japanese and Western games, since a lot of Japanese characters follow a similar aesthetic as far as diversity goes, though Japan has its own set of problems so I'm not gonna go there).

And yeah, for the most part when I see jiggle physics I mostly just roll my eyes and keep playing if it's a fun game, but it does significantly lower my opinion on it. Maybe I'm not hanging out in the "crowd" that buys into the whole cartoonishly unrealistic image of females, but whenever I have a game night at my place or whatever the general consensus with the dudes is "haha this is ridiculous". You're not losing out on a significant audience if your game isn't demeaning to women.

Women have been stereotyped forever as weak, emotional, and needing protection. People think that in order to avert that, a person or character has to be unbreakable.

I haven't played Other M so I'm in no place to talk about it, but it'd be nice to strike a balance between these two. Characters that are essentially robots are starting to bore me, characters that do nothing but whine get grating-- how about a super badass with feelings? I mean I thought Other M would be pretty cool because I heard Samus was sort of grieving over the baby from Super Metroid, and tbh so was I and I can't fault her for that! But aside from that I have no clue how the game is, haha.

Second Ivy belongs to Soul Calibur. Soul Calibur is a fighter. Fighters almost always has fan service. Big deal. It comes with the genre.

You're gonna have to elaborate, because this just seems lazy. "Yeah it's part of the genre, get over it" etc. Why does it have to be?

Very few FF females should be on these kinds of lists.

Hell, I'd put a bunch of FF dudes on these lists. Skirts, short shorts, low-necked dresses, or weird outfits reminiscent of BDSM gear do not make good adventuring attire. I'll grant that the ridiculous outfits apply to dudes to a certain extent, but it's overwhelmingly female, and I'd have a hard time justifying it beyond "it's Final Fantasy, everything about it is ridiculous".

And Lara shouldn't of been there at all. Nude cheats and hacks/mods do not count. Period. Big breasts do not make them instant fan service.

Haha so far I've got two ends of a similar argument that take different positions on this: either Lara's tit-ness was totally intentional or she's fine as she is and the fact that she's been elevated to pin-up status "doesn't count". I mean I loved the hell out of the first Tomb Raider and I take no issue with her outfit in most of her games; she's a badass and her huge breasts are somehow no impediment, all the power to her, but I could not even begin to get around to denying the amount of objectification that surrounds her outside the game. I fail to see how it "doesn't count".

She wears a enormous mechanical god mode suit. It has got be hot in there at times.

Zero Mission rewards you with Samus in a skimpy outfit. The better you do, the skimpier. I'm not disregarding how the character is regularly portrayed, but I don't see how this mechanic doesn't deserve a mention.

First of all, what's wrong with a funny black guy.

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/FunnyAfro

It's getting annoying, but I love how Sazh is pretty much the only voice of reason in FF13. His motivations also resonated with me-- like I have a younger brother who's probably about the age of his kid, and yeah I would put myself in immediate danger to keep him safe. And pull a gun on some sheila half my age if I thought she ever brought harm to him. That's why I was never complaining about these black characters, as I said in my second post?

Also, Mr T guy, was obviously based off Mr T. And what is wrong with being single fathers or handicapped. That covers a minority that you are complaining doesn't get covered enough.

... Like I said, I think it's awesome that Barrett's a handicapped single-father, though I was being facetious with the handicapped part because he's "handicapped" in the same way Guts from Berserk is "handicapped". Barrett might bear a resemblance to Mr T because... uh, he's black and has a mohawk? Or something? But I'm pretty sure his speech mannerisms are the fault of the localizers.

Not to mention, it can be hard to make any of the said characters when you yourself are not one of them.

I promise you there are homosexuals working in the game industry. Like literally I would place a material bet on it (though I'm not, I'm just telling you that I'm 100% sure they exist).

They are. Neither gender is not immune to it. Guys are buff and girls are shapely. Many people aspire to be either. I see and hear it all the time.

Like I said, unrealistic girls are commoditized and objectified. Buff as fuck guys are a predominately male fantasy, like "wouldn't it be badass if I was this badass", and Ms. Tits is... you guessed it, a predominately male fantasy! In some Japanese games you might see fanservice geared towards girls, but compared to the amount of sexist shit that's pumped out, it's almost negligible. I don't fantasize about army dudes throwing grenades, but I'm sure dudes understandably love unrealistically huge bouncing tits.

Let me put it this way: I in no way want to be like Ivy. Besides the fact that she's a big jerk, I would not be able to function with her body type. TMI warning, but I'm a 32 DDD, which means my chest is proportionately huge compared to my ribcage, which is relatively petite, and it's impossible to go bra-shopping or swimsuit shopping or decide one day "fuck it I'm gonna run to the grocery store without a bra, I want my milk NOW".

Faith? Hell yeah I'd love to be her! Parkour looks like it'd be awesome! Titania? Yesssss, I would fuck shit up. Whether dudes fantasize about these characters or not, they are not objectified within the context of the games, and they're sure as hell less demeaning towards women.

And I'm absolutely sure you don't aspire to be some whiny teenage boy bitch in a crop top with a glistening, well-built body and perfect hair and a perfect facial structure. And even then, I'd say these characters are hardly comparable to the shit you see with female characters.

3)Where the hell did you get this from? Sounds like a crappy source.

Yup, 3-5 are basically crappy things heard from crappy people on forums like GameSpot and aren't really worth splitting hairs over.

also to be extra pedantic think Vamp is straight

Not that it's that big of a deal and I probably shouldn't have included him because it's so minor, and there are lots of minor characters who are LGBT or possibly LGBT that I could cite. Fun fact, though!

From a storytelling point, it makes sense a single races would constitute the majority of the characters, since groups tend to stick to their own. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to have a random assortment of characters just for the sake of diversity. Is there any real point of making the characters have a variety of skin colors?

If it's set in California in modern-day U.S., then yeah, I'd take issue with it if everyone is white. If it took place in any metropolitan area, or the far future, or anything that doesn't boil down to "ye Olde Europe" then it makes no sense for every character to be white. I mean if Square made a Final Fantasy game in which every character is black except for the token white guy people would understandably be like "what the hell?" (I can guarantee they won't though). And yeah, there's a point: white people aren't the only gamers... or people... on this planet. I bring up Latino kids again since more Latino kids play video games than white kids, but 3% of the characters in video games are Latino (though I don't think the study that made this conclusion looked at enough games). I think it'd be awesome for there to be a Latino main character to act as, I don't know, a role model? "People like you can be heroes too?" What's wrong with that?

[msnoodles]

It's neither; Rochelle is a vapid husk of a character without any redeeming factors. She's an Aimbot, nothing more.

Aw, poor Rochelle! I personally like her, but yeah, none of the L4D characters are given a whole lot of "character". I don't think I could argue that she's "generically ethnic", though.

The existence of fanfiction does not necessarily indicate the presence of fanservice in the original work

Thisss. I honestly wouldn't give a shit if there was no fanservice period because pixelly dudes do not "do it" for me like real guys-- when we're playing Brawl or FE9 together a friend of mine will annoy me with comments like IKE IS HOT or IKE YOU MUSTN'T TEASE ME SO because he likes to annoy me period-- but in an ideal world the amount of fanservice geared towards dudes and chicks would be roughly equal, seeing as the demographic game companies are marketing to does not actually reflect its consumer base. I mean, Assassin's Creed, TF2, a shitton of other games have a huge female fanbase, but no, I'd argue that there's barely fanservice at all here.

What exactly is your is your point? Why should the developers care about that?

Because some game developers want to be taken seriously and don't want to alienate an audience or cement video games as "solely a product for greasy pizzafaced white dudes". I'd like for that to happen too, because there's nothing about video games that inherently makes them a "white gross pervert" thing. Pushing for more diversity and accessibility story-wise could only help, not hurt.

Edited October 14, 2010 by msnoodles

[Byte2222]

This video has just been released from a series that looks at and analyses games and it really hits the nail on the head.

from earlier in the creator's career which focuses on the female demographic. I'd say they're both pretty relevant to this discussion. Edited October 14, 2010 by Byte2222

[Meteor]

It's generally unacceptable to show stereotypical caricatures of minorities in other media these days. Why would games be any different?

Even going back to money, the more groups they offend, the less likely they are to get money.

I have not seen this to be true, unless the film/whatever is extremely racist. Thus I am not surprised that video games follow suit.

Stereotypes are used all the time in movies exactly because they usually are not offensive to the point where people complain, and often meant as jokes. I haven't heard any public outcry from this. In fact, the silence would suggest the jokes are appreciated. So the producers continue to provide them, and the consumers continue to support it.

Then, because the stereotypes are known to be 'safe', characters who have those traits are given the matching race. It's funny and the developers don't have to think too hard on how the character should act. AKA minimum effort required; maximum profit achieved.

Yes it's lazy, but it sells. It seems to me that the problem is that people consider the portrayals acceptable. Video games are simply reacting to the demands of the consumer.

Pushing for more diversity and accessibility story-wise could only hurt, not help.

Based on your original post, I'm guessing you mixed up help/hurt. FYI I agree, but I don't think we can place all the blame on the developers.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Meteor

[msnoodles]

This video has just been released from a series that looks at and analyses games and it really hits the nail on the head.

from earlier in the creator's career which focuses on the female demographic. I'd say they're both pretty relevant to this discussion.

Thanks a lot for these links-- and for introducing me to the creator, since these videos seem really well-thought out and I found myself agreeing with most of the points, so I'm probably gonna check out other stuff done by him sometime. The second one really nailed it for me, because I honestly have only a couple girl friends who are "gamers", and the rest? Absolutely not. Does that mean there's something inherent to games that drive them away? Well...

One friend of mine, a preppy Filipino chick with a valley girl accent who's unfortunately had to deal with her "crowd" pigeonholing her as the class bimbo, or whatever, doesn't really play games beyond like WiiSports or iPhone apps. Another's a total straight-A student, co-editor of the high school paper with me, loved arts/crafts/origami, but didn't play games at all. One day I'm like "hey we should have a game night", they agree because of the novelty or whatever, bring their boyfriends (the more the merrier I guess)-- one of the dudes saw I had SC4 and wanted to play, they took turns while I watched. Both of my friends got fucking hooked on it-- I mean they were so into it, it's not even funny. Never mind the fact that the chicks in this game are fucking ridiculous, they just thought it was fun.

So I was like okay, maybe they should try out Brawl at some point! Both of them got absolutely addicted. And by addicted I mean pretty much every day for the last month before we headed off to college I'd get a text like "we should hang out BRING BRAWL". And then when another friend and I were playing FE9-- which I wouldn't call hardcore by any means at all, though I've seen the series as a whole being described as "niche"-- the first non-gamer friend was like OMG IS THAT IKE, CAN I PLAY. And loved it. Who would've thunk it?

Obviously girls-- even those that don't fit into the stereotypical "girl gamer" image, which I'm trying to dispel with at least the people I socialize with-- are just as a viable market for video games as dudes, and that second video put it pretty well. There should be more efforts to end the sort of alienation that's associated with gaming-- and in turn, I think there'd be much less of a stigma with gaming in general.

Based on your original post, I'm guessing you mixed up help/hurt. FYI I agree, but I don't think we can place all the blame on the developers.

Yup, thanks for pointing that out.

I don't think anyone's placing all the blame on the developers. Like the video Byte posted said, a lot of the blame rests with lazy marketers or consumers that actively perpetuate the stereotypes associated with games.

It really is a pretty big and multilayered issue, but honestly I think it's worth discussing.