The portrayal of women and minorities in video games

[Esau of Isaac]

These weren't really examples of generically ethnic characters? I mean, if you twist your argument far enough you could say Rochelle's a stereotypical "sassy powerful black woman", but she's really just an inquisitive, driven journalist who happens to be blessed with zombie asskickery. Garcian's clean-cut and intelligent, so he might fit into some "professional black man" trope, but I wouldn't say that's generically ethnic either. Michael LeRoi in a former English lit student/cabbie/hitman/VOODOO WARRIOR so he hardly qualifies either. I know the localizers for FF7 gave Barrett the Mr. T shit and hear it wasn't so in the Japanese version (I don't have anything to back that up right now), but when you look past that he's a pretty likable character and does get his time to develop/shine, at least compared to some token minorities in other games. So no, I don't think I ever implied that Sazh is generically ethnic-- in fact, he's my absolute favorite character in the game.

Same. I thought when you stated that they were "ridiculous" that they were over-the-top representations of their ethnicity.

It's interesting that you'd word it like that, though you might rescind it when I ask this. What's so threatening about the notion that there should be more video games with goddamn latino main characters? I know gays and Mexicans and black people and western asians who love the shit out of video games, and it's probably counterproductive to the industry to pretend like they don't exist.

Because, I don't like listening to criticism of a game because they don't feature a diversified cast of racial types. I have to deal with listening to this in movies endlessly. It's like the makers have to concentrate on making it more balanced racially rather than just telling a damn story.

I don't care if there are more or less of any given race, really.

You think I'm attributing malice to this problem where I'm not. I think I've said around 3 times that I recognize the industry as a business at the foremost-- at the same time, I've never seen anyone explain how it'd be less profitable for diversity to exist with the characters, especially when it'd probably better reflect the whole ethnic landscape of its consumers, lol.

I never stated you had malice. I implied it in the point where I thought that you'd implied Sazh to be generic, but otherwise I agree with most of what you have said in some form or another.

Fuck up in what way? By adding some bullshit like "oh yeah transgendered people all belong to a cult dedicated to reviving some arcane space gorilla that'd been dead and encased in hardened lava for the past millennium "? A character's ethnicity/sexuality/etc doesn't have to be their defining trait-- it might add a new layer of hardship, or maybe not, depending on the setting, but if your game has a transgendered character who also throws temper tantrums over stupid shit or is too trusting or any part of their personality, nobody can come out and say AHA TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE ARE NOTHING LIKE THAT!

How can you fuck up? How can't you? The existence of transgender individuals is a delicate situation to talk about. Just throwing it in the middle of the game without heavy focus is stupid.

Why? Why not? If this particular game's trying to strike a balance between storytelling and gameplay, and the fact that the main character is transgendered is a part of the story, then it raises the question of why there's any minority in any story. You might as well ask "why should this character be black"? It happens, and the companies aren't hurting for it.

Individuals of African descent wouldn't be such a problem, because they are pretty numerous and interacted with in most cultures. In addition, they're a race, and not gender identity. To even insinuate that placing a random transgender individual into a game is the same as placing, say, an African-American into any given game, sounds pretty insulting.

It's still dumb. Nobody goes out and buys a computer game to look at t&a. Why should they when porn exists?

Of course they do. People will buy just about anything with T&A in it, especially videogames.

Which games here have lots of t&a? The only ones that even come close are Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto. But clearly, people don't buy Final Fantasy because it has titties in it. Otherwise, the earlier titles in which you could not see the titties clearly would not have succeeded. And clearly, Grand Theft Auto's success has nothing to do with the women sprinkled around, and everything to do with the massive city that they're sprinkled over.

Several games have lots of T&A. One of the selling points of the entire Dead or Alive series, for example, is that it features buxom women battling one another. Sure, it has workable gameplay, but to deny that sexual content is an important part of their marketing strategy is pure blindness. Like, to even consider denying that sexaul content is a prevalent part of videogaming culture is just...

...It's mind-boggling.

Audiences have always been diverse. How many people played Tetris? umpteen millions, and I'm sure that many were women. But recently, games have been more and more directed towards men. When the Wii came out, it tapped into this 'invisible demographic' of women who had stopped playing computer games. And that is part of the reason for its success.

No, the reason for its success is that it was a system with an unheard of incredibly gimmicky product along with a market strategy targeting the entire family. It didn't tap into an unknown demographic, Nintendo just did what it's been trying to do for years better than it usually does.

The existence of fanfiction does not necessarily indicate the presence of fanservice in the original work; look at the Kingdom Hearts fandom. There's a ludicrous amount of fanfiction (mostly from female fans) but the games have E ratings and do not show that much skin (admittedly some of the outfits are on the tight side).

But it is undeniable that the Kingdom Hearts series as a whole has developed noticeable homoerotic fanservice in some form, likely for the purpose of appealing towards a female demographic.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Just to throw another perspective in here, I'm a guy who's pretty easily satisfied. I mean, I enjoy most things. Because of this, I actually have higher standards now (conscious mental choice which is kind of wierd and doublethink, don't ask :P), so I tend to only play or "like" games I find exceptional in some way. I honestly don't really care about women in my video games or minorities in my video games that much, mainly because that's not why I play games. I mean, if sex can help sell a good game, then fine, put sex in, I don't really care. A lot of the time, you don't need sex, but it's never mattered much to me. If I do a rough list of my favorite games, it would come out like this:

KotOR 1&2, Starcraft, various other random RTS's, Pokemon, Armored Core for Answer, shit by Valve, Civilization, FE, some random other games.

Of those, the one's that I think include the most gender segregation would be FE games, because women tend to be "girly" classes like Pegasus Knight or Myrmidon or shit like that, which I guess isn't a huge travesty. Anyway, the other ones really don't do much involving genders at all. KotOR has male characters and female characters in approximately equal abundance, and the only character you could even start to call fanservice on would be Mira from KotOR 2, but that game has Kreia anyway, who I'll get back to later. Starcraft, and most RTS's don't really even have a chance to be chauvinistic and/or sexy because they're fucking RTS's, but StarCraft does have Kerrigan, so yeah. I realized in SC2 that Kerrigan is actually supposed to have been attractive before her infestation, but she certainly doesn't wear skimply clothing (the ghost oufit is full body), and after infestation she's just fucking scary. I like her because character wise she's pretty awesome. Originally she was almost tsundere-ish, but not so bad. She didn't fall into either of the generic video game woman categories of "infatuated with/obsessed with main character and his dick" or "tough as nails independent action girl who will cut off your dick if you even say something wrong", and you can actually kind of sympathize with her. She's a subordinate to a man who is growing increasingly more insane, ambitious and evil, but who she also feels she owes her life to. Eventually she actively opposes him, and he abondons her to death. After she gets infested, she becomes one of the most GAR characters in any game ever.

In Pokemon gender is like "lolwut" (although female trainer in B&W has ridiculously short shorts, I mean, look at them, and remember to ignore those little wings, it's hilarious). Armored Core is about giant mechs, and you never really see people out of them at all. There are a fair number of woman pilots, and they tend to have a fairly good spread personality wise (and honestly, fucking Wynne D Fanchon and her Reiterpallasch made me rage hardcore, she made Assault on Arteria Carpals the hardest mission in the game for me). Anyway, this was just supposed to be a random anecdote about how sex in games doesn't seem to matter, but it went on a little too long. :P

As has been said earlier, sex doesn't necessarilly sell well, but I think it can certainly help somewhat.

Anyway, getting closer to a real point, I want to talk about one of my favorite video game characters of all time, Kreia, from KotOR 2.

If you haven't played KotOR 2, play it, it might have been released slightly earlier than it should have, but it's a fantastic game. Anyway, that aside, one of the more important characters in the game is an elderly woman known as Kreia. She is manipulative, "bitchy" and theoretically evil, but everything she does is well thought out and intentional. She basically masterminds everything that happens in the entire game, and she does it because she loves you (the main character, regardless of gender). Essentially, what I like about Kreia is that she could have been a man, it wouldn't have destroyed the plot, it wouldn't have made the game "less sexy" (she was most definitely not sexy), it wouldn't have been fundamentally that different, but she ended up being a woman, and in some imperceptible way, it just feels better that way. You couldn't put a finger on why it would be worse if Kreia was a man, but somehow it just is.

That is what I would *like* video games to be like. Go ahead and throw in attractive characters, it's fine, attractive people exist, and they're attractive. Throw in sex, sexless things can be boring. Just don't let it get in the way.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I honestly don't care what they do with the characters as long as it doesn't make the game worse. I'm fine with them using a all white cast, and I'm fine with them making a game full of racial tension. As long as it doesn't detract from the game, and especially if it makes the game more interesting, go ahead, though I guess that begs the question "what would you claassify as detracting from the game?"

Edited October 15, 2010 by ZXValaRevan

[msnoodles]

I thought when you stated that they were "ridiculous" that they were over-the-top representations of their ethnicity.

Well, they both get a lot of shit for it: Barrett=Mr. T (which I don't think was the original developers' intentions), Sazh=Lionel Richie (which is... sort of awesome). Either way, I love both characters, not because they're black but because they're both kickass.

Because, I don't like listening to criticism of a game because they don't feature a diversified cast of racial types.

It's funny because you and Kanami seem to hold similar views in this regard ("I'M SICK AND TIRED ABOUT TALKING ABOUT RACE" and "I DON'T CARE IF MY FAVORITE GAME IS WHITEWASHED"). I think as far as the second point goes, that's fine. Nobody's advocating to palette-swap all your favorite main characters or anything like that; nobody's saying a specific game has less merits because the heroes are what you'd typically expect. Almost all of the criticism is directed towards the industry as a whole, and it's very much warranted.

As far as bitching about race goes, what do you expect people to do? Shut up and take it? Like I've previously expressed, it'd be nice to cast a better image of gamers/the industry on a whole than this exclusionary shit it's got going on right now.

The existence of transgender individuals is a delicate situation to talk about. Just throwing it in the middle of the game without heavy focus is stupid.

Wha? But games have already done it, and I'm not just talking about Birdo. Flea from Chrono Trigger, that intersexed person from NIER (I haven't played so maybe someone could comment on this), Poison in the first Final Fight, and I'm sure there are more. I don't think I've seen any LGBT video game characters being in the center of a shitstorm within the LGBT community for "inaccuracy", considering the fact that it's as diverse as any other community and there's really no "incorrect" way to portray a character. If anything, I'm pretty sure a lot of them would like to see more.

Seriously, it's kind of offensive that you're trying to make out a minority to be more "strange" and "alien" than they really are. Yeah, they don't receive the same amount of political/social representation as other minorities, such as blacks, but that doesn't make ignoring them okay.

it wouldn't have been fundamentally that different, but she ended up being a woman, and in some imperceptible way, it just feels better that way. You couldn't put a finger on why it would be worse if Kreia was a man, but somehow it just is.

At some point I thought about making a comment on "why" you'd make x character be y, and this reminded me.

This probably doesn't hold true for all writers across the board, and I'm not the one to talk to if you want to know how characters are generally conceptualized or developed, but there are a few ways to do it.

Some people get a vague idea for a character: not even an outline, or a list of defining traits or anything, just an "idea". Or some people say "I need a character that fits a certain purpose... how would I go about making one?"

I haven't played either KotOR so I'm in no place to say how the/one of the antagonists (?) came to being, but couldn't one of the developers have said "wouldn't it be awesome for there to be this crazy manipulative old lady who loves your character? she'd do x, x, and x" and it would have been weird for the character to become anything else?

Throw in sex, sexless things can be boring.

If sex makes it any less boring then there's a fundamental problem with the material to begin with. Unless it's meant to be pornography.

Edited October 15, 2010 by msnoodles

[Defeatist Elitist]

At some point I thought about making a comment on "why" you'd make x character be y, and this reminded me.

This probably doesn't hold true for all writers across the board, and I'm not the one to talk to if you want to know how characters are generally conceptualized or developed, but there are a few ways to do it.

Some people get a vague idea for a character: not even an outline, or a list of defining traits or anything, just an "idea". Or some people say "I need a character that fits a certain purpose... how would I go about making one?"

I haven't played either KotOR so I'm in no place to say how the/one of the antagonists (?) came to being, but couldn't one of the developers have said "wouldn't it be awesome for there to be this crazy manipulative old lady who loves your character? she'd do x, x, and x" and it would have been weird for the character to become anything else?

Well, the funny part is that she's also one of the protagonists. She's the first character to actually join you, and is generally by your side for the entire game. It probably was just wierd to make her something else.

If sex makes it any less boring then there's a fundamental problem with the material to begin with. Unless it's meant to be pornography.

But that's the thing. Sex, and specifically enjoyment of sex, and sexuality are major parts of what make us what we are. I don't think everything needs to have sex, so sometimes complete sexlessness can have a negative effect on something. It can make it seem less human.

[Life]

Wha? But games have already done it, and I'm not just talking about Birdo. Flea from Chrono Trigger, that intersexed person from NIER (I haven't played so maybe someone could comment on this), Poison in the first Final Fight, and I'm sure there are more. I don't think I've seen any LGBT video game characters being in the center of a shitstorm within the LGBT community for "inaccuracy", considering the fact that it's as diverse as any other community and there's really no "incorrect" way to portray a character. If anything, I'm pretty sure a lot of them would like to see more.

Guillo from Baten Kaitos Origins says hi. Most androgynous character that exists that I know of (literally having a male and female personality in the same body). It's Silvercrow's avatar, by the way.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Sue Sylvester

[msnoodles]

Sex, and specifically enjoyment of sex, and sexuality are major parts of what make us what we are

Absolutely. A mature depiction of sexuality could add a level of depth to the characters and/or story; when done right, it's more of something for the audience to relate with and not necessarily a selling point but an enhancement of the story.

Jiggle physics, gravity-defying tits, over-the-top fanservice-- none of these are mature depictions of sexuality, as the video posted above points out. Even if you paid me to do it, I couldn't come up with a single argument on the contrary. I'll accept that there's a market for it, but I don't know, it doesn't seem to be as huge as people make it out to be. Like I said, I personally don't know of any guy whose draw to video games is the tits. I don't know of any guy who would miss the tits if designers stopped putting them at the forefront of everyone's attention.

It can make it seem less human.

For a short sentence, this is a pretty big statement. How so? You shouldn't have to shoehorn sex into a story to win sympathy for the characters or anything like that, and I can't think of a single game that would benefit from MORE SEX!!! So I guess what I'm asking is for you to elaborate.

Guillo from Baten Kaitos Origins says hi.

I don't own either of the Baten Kaitos games, but an aforementioned friend of mine loves them and I played the original so I'm not sure how I missed this. Except when I watched it, all I got out of it was "main character, butterfly lady wailing on shit, and... robot?"

The only explanation I got was "LISTEN IT HAS TWO BLACK PEOPLE VOICES" so I didn't really know their backstory. Or... what Guillo was supposed to be, period.

Edited October 15, 2010 by msnoodles

[Life]

I don't own either of the Baten Kaitos games, but an aforementioned friend of mine loves them and I played the original so I'm not sure how I missed this. Except when I watched it, all I got out of it was "main character, butterfly lady wailing on shit, and... robot?"

The only explanation I got was "LISTEN IT HAS TWO BLACK PEOPLE VOICES" so I didn't really know their backstory. Or... what Guillo was supposed to be, period.

Guillo is literally a man and a woman inside of a robot. You can figure that out from early scenes in the game and listening to Guillo talk. Anything more and I'll ruin the story.

[Esau of Isaac]

Wha? But games have already done it, and I'm not just talking about Birdo. Flea from Chrono Trigger,

Who is a minor character whose transgender status is never tackled. And I believe it was censored in America at the least, because I remember being confused about the character as a younger kid.

that intersexed person from NIER (I haven't played so maybe someone could comment on this),

Completely censored outside of Japan, and used primarily for fetishists. Not to mention that she's not transgender. She's a hermaphrodite, but identifies solely as a female, which she is.

Poison in the first Final Fight, and I'm sure there are more.

From the Street Fighter wiki:

"The discrepancy regarding Poison has been addressed more than once in interviews with former and current Capcom employees. Final Fight developer and Arika founder Akira Nishitani stated he supposed the character could be male, but added it was up to the viewer to decide. Street Fighter IV's producer Yoshinori Ono, when asked in an interview about the matter, stated "Let's set the record straight: in North America, Poison is officially a post-op transsexual. But in Japan, she simply tucks her business away to look female." He later emphasized it again when asked about what female characters could be included in the game Street Fighter IV, stating that it would be too confusing to include her due to the region-specific gender."

They can't even adapt her to later games, because they can't even decide what she is.

It's an incredibly sensitive issue.

I don't think I've seen any LGBT video game characters being in the center of a shitstorm within the LGBT community for "inaccuracy", considering the fact that it's as diverse as any other community and there's really no "incorrect" way to portray a character. If anything, I'm pretty sure a lot of them would like to see more.

There would be shitstorms pretty much any time LGBT characters are about in video games if there were much of any organized LGBT videogame community. Almost all of the homosexual males I can think of in videogames are depicted as girly men, often making unwanted sexual advances on main characters. Homosexual and bisexual women are usually used as a tool for selling sex, and transgender is pretty much always referred to as "wait, you're what?"

Seriously, it's kind of offensive that you're trying to make out a minority to be more "strange" and "alien" than they really are. Yeah, they don't receive the same amount of political/social representation as other minorities, such as blacks, but that doesn't make ignoring them okay.

It's offensive that you would imply that their representation is as warranted as racial representation. It's not even acceptable in everyday society to be transsexual, stating that game-makers should insert them into games as commonly as, say, asians is ridiculous.

Though for that matter, I don't know why you're arguing for asian representation as a minority. Because they're a majority. They are more numerous than any other people on Earth, to my knowledge.

Absolutely. A mature depiction of sexuality could add a level of depth to the characters and/or story; when done right, it's more of something for the audience to relate with and not necessarily a selling point but an enhancement of the story.

Jiggle physics, gravity-defying tits, over-the-top fanservice-- none of these are mature depictions of sexuality, as the video posted above points out. Even if you paid me to do it, I couldn't come up with a single argument on the contrary. I'll accept that there's a market for it, but I don't know, it doesn't seem to be as huge as people make it out to be. Like I said, I personally don't know of any guy whose draw to video games is the tits. I don't know of any guy who would miss the tits if designers stopped putting them at the forefront of everyone's attention.

I would. I like the constant lewd characters in Soul Calibur, I enjoy seeing gravity-defying breasts in Dead or Alive. I like the over-the-top lascivious behavior of Bayonetta, and I am fine with scantily-clad women in various action games such as Lost Planet 2 and Ninja Gaiden.

Why does it matter if it's more mature? Do all games need to move towards a trend of greater maturity? Because that kind of spells doom for most videogames.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[msnoodles]

And I believe it was censored in America at the least, because I remember being confused about the character as a younger kid.

So was I, but it certainly wasn't censored. I think that's what makes him notable.

She's a hermaphrodite, but identifies solely as a female, which she is.

I never said transgender, I said intersexed. How are hermaphrodites not intersexed?

There would be shitstorms pretty much any time LGBT characters are about in video games if there were much of any organized LGBT videogame community.

A bunch of LGBT people have already exploited the hell out of wordplay with "gay" and "gamer".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaymer

It's a niche community, but it exists. I don't know where you're getting that a LGBT main character would send it into a rage.

It's offensive that you would imply that their representation is as warranted as racial representation. It's not even acceptable in everyday society to be transsexual, stating that game-makers should insert them into games as commonly as, say, asians is ridiculous.

... what the hell makes representation for anyone less "warranted"? They don't "deserve" it less because there are less of them.

Though for that matter, I don't know why you're arguing for asian representation as a minority.

Where? In fact, I never really discussed asians at length for a reason: the Eastern game industry has its own set of problems, but one could argue "Asians" are pretty fairly represented at least with some of these games.

Either you're getting me mixed up with someone else, or you're taking issue with the term "west Asians". If I called them Middle Easterners, would that make you feel better?

Why does it matter if it's more mature? Do all games need to move towards a trend of greater maturity? Because that kind of spells doom for most videogames.

This makes no sense. Arguably a lot of people who play video games and people in the industry are seeing a marked shift in "maturity". It's what a lot of them are striving for now that games are becoming more cinematic, more "artsy", etc.

It's nice that you like polygon tits, but like I'm said, I haven't met anyone irl that I know of who's like that. I won't deny they exist, though; the general assumption is they're not really dudes I'd see walking around in public.

And yeah, it''s not nice to stereotype them like that, but they're kind of doing that to themselves.

[Kanami]

Which assumes a gay character would be oggling some other dude's tush? Some guys are just... gay. You probably are personally acquainted with tons of homosexuals who you assume to be straight, but you don't know because they don't fit into the stereotypical image of a homosexual.

~I'm not sure why you had to throw this in here. Nobody's worried about offending fictional characters, but they take issue with what they represent.

Yes it does imply he'd be oggling some other dude's tush. Not specifically, but many games have a romantic element added into them. The objective is to portray LGBT, so having brotherhood like friendship has already been done. The thing is, they're gay. Their love interest would be male. And many (regardless of whether they support or are against gay rights) can not put themselves in that situation. I've heard more then numerous times people say "Gays should be allowed equal rights, though I don't want them getting interested in me" or something along those lines. If you want to make a game for the gay community, by all means. But forcing it into standard games for the sake of something as unimportant as representation?

As for characters with feelings? The character the comments are directed at isn't insulted, why the hell should someone else be? I used to hate a black kid, not because he was black but because of his personality. And I've insulted him more then once. Should all black people (Somewhere from Africa) be think that my insults at him were directed at the entire black populace? What obsessive mind do you have to complain about misrepresentation?

Fire Emblem

...... You people are joking right? I can understand the clothing comment, but personality? Really? 4 short (support) conversations and a chapter makes a good representation? I suppose that's the reason you're complaining about ethnicities, I like to make a judgement of the character on what they present, while you seem to like digging in and reading into what they provide.

FE characters are shallow, so reading into their character become neccessary to make them interesting.

A typical indepth character doesn't leave enough to be read into and therefore you need to make an issue out of race? <_<

There seems to be a whole lot of issue with the fact that you have to put up with people whining about underrepresentation. Honestly, if you can't sympathize with their lack of representation, I can't really sympathize with your feeling of inconvenience, because I feel like the former is 100x more important than the latter.

Originally, I thought you had a relatively sound point, but your later points have clearly indicated you want more latino/black protagonists. And that seems to be the bulk of your argument. Under-representation of specific ethnicities in games. And yes, I can't sympathize with their lack of representation because it's simply not an important aspect of a game. As said before, it doesn't contribute anything, and it doesn't detract anything. If a hispanic character makes the plot make more sense, go for it. There's no need to force in characters for the sake of representation.

I'm not white myself. (I'm asian) but I've never felt inclined to complain about all Japanese characters being honorable, sword wiedling ninja/samurai. (Exceptions always exist). Female Ninja's were historically closer to prostitutes then fighters at times, but I don't see that represented? (Besides the bouncy breasts) If I start listing up problems with portrayals then the list is endless. However they're not exactly problems which need to be addressed in order to make the game better.

wait, what? Nobody said they wanted an established white character to be black, so I have no clue how to respond to this. A black kid playing video games might see black characters shoved into comic relief/wisecracking sidekick/generic npc roles and wonder why there are so few games with black main characters. There's nothing militant, resentful, or unnecessary about this sentiment; if I lived in a country roughly divided up between green, purple, and blue people, and I'm a blue person, I'd wonder why the majority of important video game characters are green. It's an elementary oversimplification, but the core of your argument seems to be "GET OVER IT" and I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to frame mine. There are games where ethnic or otherwise diversity wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, e.g. if it was set in a certain time-period in Europe, or like Fire Emblem draws a lot of inspiration from it-- but even then, series like TES will let you modify your character's race, skin color et al, which is pretty awesome considering it's high fantasy.

Nobody said that an established white character should be black <_< What I did however say is you're being overly obsessive about the concept of race. It's not that important. And I'm going to go as far as call you (and your school friends) stupid if you think it matters enough to garner attention. If you have a problem with it, how about becoming a gaming programmer and breaking the trend?

I've said before, and you've acknowledged that people are in it for the gameplay (story). So what's race got to do with anything? I fail to see how including more minorities will result in an expansion of the market if there aren't idiots out there who over-value the race of their character. Something this trivial shouldn't be a money maker. As for my whole argument? It's not "GET OVER IT" but rather why does it matter? What's the merit of breaking from stereotypes? Are you people actually offended by the funny black guy? And how does making a game more ethnicially diverse increase gamer satisfaction/company profits?

Because some game developers want to be taken seriously and don't want to alienate an audience or cement video games as "solely a product for greasy pizzafaced white dudes". I'd like for that to happen too, because there's nothing about video games that inherently makes them a "white gross pervert" thing. Pushing for more diversity and accessibility story-wise could only help, not hurt.

Right, alienation <_< I've totally noticed that, though perhaps more importantly, the gaming is steadily and rapidly increasing, So if race obsessed idiots are feeling alienated then that's their loss. Cause lets face it. We don't care about companies making excessive amounts of profit. We're happy as long as they give us another good solid game.

As far as bitching about race goes, what do you expect people to do? Shut up and take it? Like I've previously expressed, it'd be nice to cast a better image of gamers/the industry on a whole than this exclusionary shit it's got going on right now.

~

Seriously, it's kind of offensive that you're trying to make out a minority to be more "strange" and "alien" than they really are. Yeah, they don't receive the same amount of political/social representation as other minorities, such as blacks, but that doesn't make ignoring them okay.

Yes, I expect you to shut up and take it. Because it's not insulting, it's not "offensive" it's not meant to be. And overall it's not all that important. Gameplay, let's work on gameplay <_< Strange and alien isn't even the right term to use. Hell I see most JRPG protagonists to be "strange and alien" because their so concerned about the wellbeing of their "friends" and how the have a hero complex. Political and social representation? What are you going to complain about next? That there's not an even distribution of ethnicities for news casters? Screw the news, it's the newscaster that's important. Right? Right?!?!

[Esau of Isaac]

So was I, but it certainly wasn't censored. I think that's what makes him notable.

I'm pretty sure it was censored. That may have been changed in later times, but in the SNES version it was probably changed.

I never said transgender, I said intersexed. How are hermaphrodites not intersexed?

You said LGBT earlier. She doesn't fall in that group, which was my point. And even if she does, she's fap-fodder.

A bunch of LGBT people have already exploited the hell out of wordplay with "gay" and "gamer".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaymer

It's a niche community, but it exists. I don't know where you're getting that a LGBT main character would send it into a rage.

Because a wide majority of LGBT characters are incredibly stereotypical.

... what the hell makes representation for anyone less "warranted"? They don't "deserve" it less because there are less of them.

More or less, especially since --again-- it is not socially acceptable to be transgender.

Where? In fact, I never really discussed asians at length for a reason: the Eastern game industry has its own set of problems, but one could argue "Asians" are pretty fairly represented at least with some of these games.

Either you're getting me mixed up with someone else, or you're taking issue with the term "west Asians". If I called them Middle Easterners, would that make you feel better?

I skimmed it. Thought you just said asians. My apologies.

This makes no sense. Arguably a lot of people who play video games and people in the industry are seeing a marked shift in "maturity". It's what a lot of them are striving for now that games are becoming more cinematic, more "artsy", etc.

Some are. Some are looking for an increase in sexual content. Who cares?

It's nice that you like polygon tits, but like I'm said, I haven't met anyone irl that I know of who's like that. I won't deny they exist, though; the general assumption is they're not really dudes I'd see walking around in public.

Multiple friends of mine are quite fine with it.

And yeah, it''s not nice to stereotype them like that, but they're kind of doing that to themselves.

Yeah. How dare they like seeing breasts. Sick fucks.

[msnoodles]

Hot damn, Kanami, there's a lot of vitriol in your post. It might just be that you word things weirdly, but calling everyone you disagree with "idiots" is detracting from your point if anything else.

Yes it does imply he'd be oggling some other dude's tush.

I'm a straight female and my sexuality isn't at all a defining trait. When there's a conflict, sex isn't a huge priority for me. Plots need conflict. If I were the main character of any sort of story, you wouldn't see me staring at some dude's ass and breaking your immersion or whatever. Or to put it another way, there are tons of games with straight females who aren't oggling guys left and right; why would it be any different for gay dudes?

Some gay dudes are just gay. It could be that he doesn't find any of the other characters attractive, or he's in a secluded environment and there's nobody around to oggle... or it doesn't happen because the game developers decided that the main character would be gay and didn't feel like they need to tack on some retarded romantic subplot to illustrate this. Though if they do, all the more power to them.

The thing is, they're gay. Their love interest would be male. And many (regardless of whether they support or are against gay rights) can not put themselves in that situation. I've heard more then numerous times people say "Gays should be allowed equal rights, though I don't want them getting interested in me" or something along those lines. If you want to make a game for the gay community, by all means. But forcing it into standard games for the sake of something as unimportant as representation?

You act like mainstream gay fiction hasn't already struck a chord with a pretty wide audience, at least in America. Brokeback Mountain wasn't as widely distributed and actively boycotted by a pretty sizable bloc of conservatives, but it still hit #9 at the box office opening weekend. You're either assuming all straight people are cruel bastards who can't empathize with LGBT individuals or you're insulting the consumers' intelligence-- either way, I don't think they'd appreciate that.

As for characters with feelings? The character the comments are directed at isn't insulted, why the hell should someone else be?

I honestly don't follow. I don't know where you got the idea that people literally feel sorry that the characters are stereotypes-- not sorry that they occur, but literally sorry for some pixels. I don't even know.

What obsessive mind do you have to complain about misrepresentation?

People who are misrepresented complain about it.

I feel like drawing attention to those videos posted above. The guy included pretty visuals and explained it so much better than me.

...... You people are joking right? I can understand the clothing comment, but personality? Really? 4 short (support) conversations and a chapter makes a good representation? I suppose that's the reason you're complaining about ethnicities, I like to make a judgement of the character on what they present, while you seem to like digging in and reading into what they provide.

FE characters are shallow, so reading into their character become neccessary to make them interesting.

The FE characters don't see equal degrees of development, but as far as females go, they receive an equal amount of agency. I have no clue what you're trying to say with the last two sentences there.

Originally, I thought you had a relatively sound point, but your later points have clearly indicated you want more latino/black protagonists. And that seems to be the bulk of your argument. Under-representation of specific ethnicities in games.

My issue is with 1. underrepresentation of ethnicities and LGBT people as important characters in video games

2. the exploitative nature of women in video games

3. the industry's lag to catch up with its expanding market.

Nobody's really answered the query from my OP: how would it be less profitable to stop trying to milk a tired demographic while ignoring the others? Even something like "I would stop buying a video game if it had no huge jiggly tits, regardless of gameplay, and if the gameplay sucks then I'd buy it if jiggly tits were involved" is a start, but I don't know of anyone who would admit to that or even begin to rationalize something like that.

And yes, I can't sympathize with their lack of representation because it's simply not an important aspect of a game. As said before, it doesn't contribute anything, and it doesn't detract anything. If a hispanic character makes the plot make more sense, go for it. There's no need to force in characters for the sake of representation.

Welp, just because you don't understand it doesn't make it unimportant. I'm not going to tell you to put yourself into a 12 year old female Mexican gamer's shoes, but you're gonna have to accept that she'd love for there to be some sort of Latina heroine as, I dunno, a role-model? Keep in mind that the enjoyment of games and the stories therein aren't constrained to a specific demographic. If you can't sympathize with them then that's your problem, but the statement that "it doesn't contribute anything" is blatantly false. I don't see why having games with minority main characters or women with agency has to be "forced".

If I start listing up problems with portrayals then the list is endless. However they're not exactly problems which need to be addressed in order to make the game better.

Why are we still stuck on specific games? We're talking about an entire industry, here.

Nobody said that an established white character should be black <_< What I did however say is you're being overly obsessive about the concept of race. It's not that important. And I'm going to go as far as call you (and your school friends) stupid if you think it matters enough to garner attention. If you have a problem with it, how about becoming a gaming programmer and breaking the trend?

First off, when you say "changing the ethnicity of characters for the sake of representation though isn't an improvement" it implies that someone ever suggested this.

On a biological level, race isn't important. Most anthropologists pretty much agree that everyone falls on a continuum and there is no clear and set boundary for what constitutes as racial lines. Politically, race and ethnicity is pretty important-- if we're stuck on ethnic characters in stories, here, a person's ethnicity has the potential to have a great bearing on their personality. I don't care if you call me stupid, but you'll have to consider what that makes you, seeing as you're wrong on this point. Race does matter. Out of curiosity, do you believe in "colorblindness"? Not the actual condition, but I mean in regards to race.

I'm not a programmer. I write often in my leisure time, but I don't have any unrealistic expectations of breaking through with a certain industry; at the same time, at the surface, writing for video games would seem like a marriage of two activities I love. In reality, it's probably hell.

I've said before, and you've acknowledged that people are in it for the gameplay (story). So what's race got to do with anything? I fail to see how including more minorities will result in an expansion of the market if there aren't idiots out there who over-value the race of their character. Something this trivial shouldn't be a money maker. As for my whole argument? It's not "GET OVER IT" but rather why does it matter? What's the merit of breaking from stereotypes? Are you people actually offended by the funny black guy? And how does making a game more ethnicially diverse increase gamer satisfaction/company profits?

Because characters are an integral part of the story? Bland characters don't make for interesting stories, no matter how novel the premise? Stereotypes easily lend themselves to blandness, tiredness, and cliches? I argue this from a purely artistic standpoint, and my position would be the same: a cast without diversity is, well, just plain terrible writing, especially if it makes no sense within the context. I'm not going to hold video games to the same standards of literature or anything, though that raises the question of why video games shouldn't have better writing. I could at least better justify my love for them.

If a game's classy, people will like it better. They'll be more satisfied. If it makes a bold move (like a transgendered main character) then it gets media attention. The more people shift towards this trend of inclusion, the more visible these minorities will be. It'd expose one audience to a character with whom you can empathize, despite the differences, and with other audiences, they can relate to the ethnic or sexuality-centric hardships this character might face... or if not, they can say "cool, someone like me!"

Can you seriously not understand how this might be valuable to someone who's been reminded all their life that they're different?

Right, alienation <_< I've totally noticed that, though perhaps more importantly, the gaming is steadily and rapidly increasing, So if race obsessed idiots are feeling alienated then that's their loss. Cause lets face it. We don't care about companies making excessive amounts of profit. We're happy as long as they give us another good solid game.

Yeah, except like I said, I don't see why we should automatically accept poor writing in games. It's a growing media, and I don't want it to be stunted by pigeonholing its own audience. Like I said, the majority of my irl friends are non-gamers. They have a certain image in their head that's being reinforced by an alienating industry, and, to a certain extent, a certain consumer base. I don't think this is acceptable, and by alienating these people, they're losing out on potential customers.

I have no clue how to respond to race-obsessed idiots because honestly, I think the closest you have to a race-obsessed idiot are racists themselves. Including "colorblind racists" who don't want any discussion on race whatsoever because they're afraid that it might result in them "losing" something.

Yes, I expect you to shut up and take it. Because it's not insulting, it's not "offensive" it's not meant to be. And overall it's not all that important. Gameplay, let's work on gameplay <_< Strange and alien isn't even the right term to use. Hell I see most JRPG protagonists to be "strange and alien" because their so concerned about the wellbeing of their "friends" and how the have a hero complex. Political and social representation? What are you going to complain about next? That there's not an even distribution of ethnicities for news casters? Screw the news, it's the newscaster that's important. Right? Right?!?!

Whaaat the hell are you trying to say with those last few sentences?

Even if it doesn't insult you, it still insults other people. I guess you could plug your ears and go LALALALA and pretend they don't exist, but that doesn't make you right by any means.

[msnoodles]

I'm pretty sure it was censored. That may have been changed in later times, but in the SNES version it was probably changed.

How do you mean censored, then? I've only ever played the SNES version (in two languages) and Flea makes it pretty clear he's a dude. He was never "explained away" as a chick.

You said LGBT earlier. She doesn't fall in that group, which was my point. And even if she does, she's fap-fodder.

that intersexed person from NIER

Should we just say LGBTQIA now? That's the official acronym, but this really is splitting hairs. And then splitting the split ends.

Because a wide majority of LGBT characters are incredibly stereotypical.

Why does a theoretical main or important character have to be stereotypical? This is also assuming that writers/developers/designers can't be LGBTQIA themselves, which... well, they can. There's actually a pretty fair amount of diversity in the industry, at least compared to within the stories.

More or less, especially since --again-- it is not socially acceptable to be transgender.

Cool! A protagonist doesn't have to be socially acceptable. I really doubt hardcore conservatives make up a significant chunk of the consumer base, though I wouldn't object to there being a hardcore conservative important character or a game with which hardcore conservatives can relate. I don't go "GOSH WHAT IS THEIR PROBLEM" when they like something like that.

Some are looking for an increase in sexual content. Who cares?

Because "some" doesn't justify a total one-track marketing ploy. Right now this medium is to television what television was to theater, and so on. It'd be nice if the mainstream media could, y'know, take the industry seriously-- the dude who buys games with unrealistically busty babes fighting each other solely for the babes doesn't need to be the image of the typical "gamer" because at this point he really isn't.

Yeah. How dare they like seeing breasts. Sick fucks.

If breasts are your sole draw to a game then people are going to assume you're irl-breast-deprived. I'm not going to make that assumption, but you can't be angry if people do.

[Esau of Isaac]

How do you mean censored, then? I've only ever played the SNES version (in two languages) and Flea makes it pretty clear he's a dude. He was never "explained away" as a chick.

The thing is, I don't remember finding out that Flea was actually a guy until around the time of Chrono Cross.

Maybe I'm going crazy.

Should we just say LGBTQIA now? That's the official acronym, but this really is splitting hairs. And then splitting the split ends.

I did include the addendum that she's for fetishists.

Why does a theoretical main or important character have to be stereotypical? This is also assuming that writers/developers/designers can't be LGBTQIA themselves, which... well, they can. There's actually a pretty fair amount of diversity in the industry, at least compared to within the stories.

I didn't say they have to be stereotypical. It's just going to be hard to fairly represent a transgender person in a storyline without it being incredibly awkward, and thus games often avoid them altogether.

And while some creators can be LGBT, I think you would agree that most probably aren't.

Cool! A protagonist doesn't have to be socially acceptable. I really doubt hardcore conservatives make up a significant chunk of the consumer base, though I wouldn't object to there being a hardcore conservative important character or a game with which hardcore conservatives can relate. I don't go "GOSH WHAT IS THEIR PROBLEM" when they like something like that.

Yeah, a protagonist does kind of have to be socially acceptable. You're not going to sell games that feature, say, a rapist, at least to any large mass of people. Especially not if it realistically depicts their behavior.

Which isn't to say that transgender people are anything as horrible as a rapist. Or really horrible at all. I'm merely trying to illustrate that it's unfair to expect an industry to include an individual that is transgender like it's just as easy as placing a black guy into it.

Because "some" doesn't justify a total one-track marketing ploy. Right now this medium is to television what television was to theater, and so on. It'd be nice if the mainstream media could, y'know, take the industry seriously-- the dude who buys games with unrealistically busty babes fighting each other solely for the babes doesn't need to be the image of the typical "gamer" because at this point he really isn't.

I never stated that such a person purchases those games solely for busty babes. But they can be a large part of it. I know that a large part of my like for Dead or Alive and Soul Calibur is the inclusion of sexual content.

If breasts are your sole draw to a game then people are going to assume you're irl-breast-deprived. I'm not going to make that assumption, but you can't be angry if people do.

Where did I say that breasts are anyone's sole draw to games?

Edited October 15, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[Defeatist Elitist]

Jiggle physics, gravity-defying tits, over-the-top fanservice-- none of these are mature depictions of sexuality, as the video posted above points out. Even if you paid me to do it, I couldn't come up with a single argument on the contrary. I'll accept that there's a market for it, but I don't know, it doesn't seem to be as huge as people make it out to be. Like I said, I personally don't know of any guy whose draw to video games is the tits. I don't know of any guy who would miss the tits if designers stopped putting them at the forefront of everyone's attention.

But why is this so immature? I mean, it's one method to add some sex to the game. As I said, I don't need it, but I can certainly see why people would be drawn to it, and I can even see it adding to a game. Basically, why is it so immature?

For a short sentence, this is a pretty big statement. How so? You shouldn't have to shoehorn sex into a story to win sympathy for the characters or anything like that, and I can't think of a single game that would benefit from MORE SEX!!! So I guess what I'm asking is for you to elaborate.

I never said you had to shoehorn it in, or even put it in everything. I'm saying that sometimes things are too sexless. I can't really think of many game examples right now (I don't play an absurd number of games), but I could certainly point out at least one TV show that could be less sexless, and it probably would surprise people. (It's K-On by the way)

But yeah, people, guys in particular, like sex a lot. Like, you are underestimating how much people can like sex. People are sometimes drawn to video games because of sex. So there is a market.

Now, your other point seems to be that everyone is focusing on just this market, but it's simply not true. There are many games that lack this sexualization. Way more than you seem to accept.

I guess I just don't see an issue.

Edited October 15, 2010 by ZXValaRevan

[Inactive Account]

If you have a problem with it, how about becoming a gaming programmer and breaking the trend?

I've got a lot more here to respond to but I just have to point out that 1) this is far easier said than done (I'm looking to break into the games industry when I get out of college) and 2) writing and programming are different jobs within the industry.

More to follow once I've got time to reread and write up a response.

[msnoodles]

I did include the addendum that she's for fetishists.

Fair enough. I haven't played NIER so I can't say.

I didn't say they have to be stereotypical. It's just going to be hard to fairly represent a transgender person in a storyline without it being incredibly awkward, and thus games often avoid them altogether.

And while some creators can be LGBT, I think you would agree that most probably aren't.

Nope, that's not my point of contention. I think a LGBT developer could tastefully portray a transgender character as they could a heterosexual male-- like I said, the ability to make sympathetic characters doesn't hinge on their status as a minority as much as it hinges on good writing. I don't think there should be a rule that video game stories and good writing are mutually exclusive.

Yeah, a protagonist does kind of have to be socially acceptable. You're not going to sell games that feature, say, a rapist, at least to any large mass of people. Especially not if it realistically depicts their behavior.

Which isn't to say that transgender people are anything as horrible as a rapist. Or really horrible at all. I'm merely trying to illustrate that it's unfair to expect an industry to include an individual that is transgender like it's just as easy as placing a black guy into it.

I never said it'd be "easy". It's fair to ask for quality in games: I like fun gameplay, sensible mechanics, and good writing. Achieving this is not necessarily easy, but from a business standpoint it is rewarding.

Transgendered people are not going to be socially acceptable if the media pretends they don't exist. There is nothing inherent to video games or video game developers that renders them incapable of class. Nothing.

I never stated that such a person purchases those games solely for busty babes. But they can be a large part of it

Good for you if it's not your sole draw, and good for you if it is. Whether you like pixellated boobs or not doesn't really contradict my argument, which is that the typical target audience isn't going to look at an otherwise fun game and go "no tits? I think I'll pass."

[eclipse]

Holy walls of text. . .

There's a ton of stuff to respond to, but I'm only bothering with one thing, because it's the one that stuck out the most:

Yes it does imply he'd be oggling some other dude's tush. Not specifically, but many games have a romantic element added into them. The objective is to portray LGBT, so having brotherhood like friendship has already been done. The thing is, they're gay. Their love interest would be male. And many (regardless of whether they support or are against gay rights) can not put themselves in that situation.

You are reading WAY the hell too far into things if "brotherhood-like friendship" = "I want you in that way". Why do two perfectly good friends of ambiguous sexuality need to be in love with each other? Unless it's stated explicitly (in-game, developer interviews, etc.), I assume it's friendship. Otherwise, why not come out and say it?

I'm in the exact opposite situation of what you're portraying, and it's frustrating. Please don't assume close friends are romantically interested in each other, no matter what the gender.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Good for you if it's not your sole draw, and good for you if it is. Whether you like pixellated boobs or not doesn't really contradict my argument, which is that the typical target audience isn't going to look at an otherwise fun game and go "no tits? I think I'll pass."

Well, how about this? Take to perfectly identical games. They are almost exactly the same in every way, except one game has sexless, unnattractive characters, and the other has a fair number of attractive women of all breast sizes and figure types.

Which game do you think will sell better?

Now expand this method of thinking. Boobs aren't a way to single handedly win the market, they are a way to get an edge. As has been said already, they are not necessary, and not everybody uses them.

[msnoodles]

But why is this so immature? I mean, it's one method to add some sex to the game. As I said, I don't need it, but I can certainly see why people would be drawn to it, and I can even see it adding to a game. Basically, why is it so immature?

Because sex isn't like that. You can argue that these qualities fairly represent commoditized sex, but I don't know how you can argue that it's in any way "mature". If you (the royal "you") are into fetishes and cartoon porn then that's fine, but that isn't mainstream material.

Before anyone jumps on me and argues that anything LGBT(qia...) is fetish material, please don't, for the sake of my sanity.

Now, your other point seems to be that everyone is focusing on just this market, but it's simply not true. There are many games that lack this sexualization. Way more than you seem to accept.

When did I ever say that? I mean in my freakin' OP I posted a bunch of exceptions to the trend, but that doesn't make it any less of a trend. It's still a lot of developers' go-to marketing strategy, and this should definitely not be the norm.

[msnoodles]

They are almost exactly the same in every way, except one game has sexless, unnattractive characters, and the other has a fair number of attractive women of all breast sizes and figure types.

You're forgetting that there are girls out there who will look at the ridiculous objectification that seems to surround the industry, roll their eyes, and turn away.

Some people just like interesting character designs. Adding boobs is not necessarily a wise design choice; you might appeal to some teens who throw their allowance at anything that tickles their id, but it won't necessarily make the character visually interesting in the same way people'd find an attractive girl irl interesting.

A lot of straight girls play video games, and boobs that are there to get an edge in marketing isn't a really compelling ploy to get their money.

[Esau of Isaac]

Nope, that's not my point of contention. I think a LGBT developer could tastefully portray a transgender character as they could a heterosexual male-- like I said, the ability to make sympathetic characters doesn't hinge on their status as a minority as much as it hinges on good writing. I don't think there should be a rule that video game stories and good writing are mutually exclusive.

They could, but it would be very difficult to do with current societal norms, with little point other than to be balanced in gender identity.

I never said it'd be "easy". It's fair to ask for quality in games: I like fun gameplay, sensible mechanics, and good writing. Achieving this is not necessarily easy, but from a business standpoint it is rewarding.

Transgendered people are not going to be socially acceptable if the media pretends they don't exist. There is nothing inherent to video games or video game developers that renders them incapable of class. Nothing.

Why would you say that media as a whole ignores transgendered people?

Good for you if it's not your sole draw, and good for you if it is. Whether you like pixellated boobs or not doesn't really contradict my argument, which is that the typical target audience isn't going to look at an otherwise fun game and go "no tits? I think I'll pass."

It's essentially what happened to King of Fighters XII. "What, no Mai? Pass this shit."

Though in all seriousness, no one's going to say "No tits? I think I'll pass" as a rule. Doesn't mean it's not sometimes a large part of the process in determining whether they'll buy something.

Because sex isn't like that. You can argue that these qualities fairly represent commoditized sex, but I don't know how you can argue that it's in any way "mature". If you (the royal "you") are into fetishes and cartoon porn then that's fine, but that isn't mainstream material.

Mainstream enough for most popular games to have them. Though, wait, what's cartoon porn now?

Before anyone jumps on me and argues that anything LGBT(qia...) is fetish material, please don't, for the sake of my sanity.

Well it's certainly not mainstream. :V

When did I ever say that? I mean in my freakin' OP I posted a bunch of exceptions to the trend, but that doesn't make it any less of a trend. It's still a lot of developers' go-to marketing strategy, and this should definitely not be the norm.

Okay.

Why?

You're forgetting that there are girls out there who will look at the ridiculous objectification that seems to surround the industry, roll their eyes, and turn away.

So?

Some people just like interesting character designs.

What do you find interesting in character designs?

A lot of straight girls play video games, and boobs that are there to get an edge in marketing isn't a really compelling ploy to get their money.

Then why does it give publishers an edge?

Edited October 15, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[Defeatist Elitist]

Because sex isn't like that. You can argue that these qualities fairly represent commoditized sex, but I don't know how you can argue that it's in any way "mature". If you (the royal "you") are into fetishes and cartoon porn then that's fine, but that isn't mainstream material.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you implying that men, in general are not at all attracted to abnormally large/bouncing breasts? I don't see a reason to call something immature, unless you can demonstrate there is something immature about it. Or perhaps you aren't saying it's immature, and you're just saying it's NOT particularly mature. In that case I guess don't care or something? :P

When did I ever say that? I mean in my freakin' OP I posted a bunch of exceptions to the trend, but that doesn't make it any less of a trend. It's still a lot of developers' go-to marketing strategy, and this should definitely not be the norm.

But it's not really the norm. At least, doing it to an absurd degree isn't.

If developers have a choice between attractive and non attractive characters, they will probably choose attractive characters, as it's highly unlikely for that to reduce sales, and can in fact increase them.

[Defeatist Elitist]

You're forgetting that there are girls out there who will look at the ridiculous objectification that seems to surround the industry, roll their eyes, and turn away.

Okay. Why? I don't think I know a single person who doesn't play video games to some degree who is under 20, btw, but even then, I really, really don't think that there dislike of most video games stems from this.

Some people just like interesting character designs. Adding boobs is not necessarily a wise design choice; you might appeal to some teens who throw their allowance at anything that tickles their id, but it won't necessarily make the character visually interesting in the same way people'd find an attractive girl irl interesting.

Why can't you have attractive, interesting character designs?

A lot of straight girls play video games, and boobs that are there to get an edge in marketing isn't a really compelling ploy to get their money.

Yeah, but is it really going to LOSE their money?

Edited October 15, 2010 by ZXValaRevan

[-Cynthia-]

On the issue of LGBT characters in video games, the 2009 Game of the Year (Dragon Age) has two bisexual characters, Zevran and Leliana. Both are "party members", making them some of the most prominent characters in the game. Both characters can be romanced by either male or female protagonists (Dragon Age is one of those make your own protagonist deals, so the main character can also be gay/lesbian/bisexual). Throughout the game there are also other non-heterosexual characters of lesser importance.

Point being, people did not boycott (at least not many, considering sales) Dragon Age because it had prominent LGBT characters and/or the option for the main character to be LGBT.