Best/Worst in the Series: Round 67

[Radiant Dragon]

So apparently it's impossible for a male and a female to be close friends without it being romantic, too.

No, that's not what I was trying to say. It's just upsetting that even in today's "Tolerant" society, a practically canon pairing gets dismissed as crack just because they're both guys. Is it possible for them to be just close friends? Of course. However, the opposite is just as possible, and other heterosexual pairings with similar vagueness in their endings are considered canon only because they're a guy and a girl. I'm not trying to say the pairing is or isn't canon, I was just trying to make an observation about how it's portrayed by the game and interpreted by fans.

Gee, guess only two females can be good friends and everyone else has to keep at arm's length in order to prevent misconceptions.

See Florina x Lyn. Not even two females are safe...

[Axie]

But then you could claim pretty much any pair of two male best friends in video games are gay for each other. Any moment of closeness you could then claim "Oh, they are in a romantic relationship but the game can't say that since it might cause controversy so they just did this". But then how can two males ever have just a close friendship in a VG? Is it impossible?

Sadly, that is the reasoning so many fangirls use to justify their wishful thinking. But the fact they use it for any two random hot guys they want to see together does not change the fact that video game developers mostly don't want to create controversy by explicitly including same-sex couples (which includes lesbians btw). But they can work around that and get the couple past the radar, just like they do with all the incest Fire Emblem has.

Long story short: sometimes, two best friends really are just two best friends. And sometimes, two best friends may be something more. And when it comes to homosexuality, they will make sure we will have a hard time telling the two things apart, to keep the moral guardians in check. Sad, but true.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Axie

[Narga_Rocks]

No, that's not what I was trying to say. It's just upsetting that even in today's "Tolerant" society, a practically canon pairing gets dismissed as crack just because they're both guys. Is it possible for them to be just close friends? Of course. However, the opposite is just as possible, and other heterosexual pairings with similar vagueness in their endings are considered canon only because they're a guy and a girl. I'm not trying to say the pairing is or isn't canon, I was just trying to make an observation about how it's portrayed by the game and interpreted by fans.

I wouldn't call the other ones canon, though. The male x female one. That's part of the point of what I said. If they are just friends (however close) and the game gives literally zero indication that there is anything more going on then why would I consider any combination of genders to be a canon pairing? I'd consider none of it to be canon. Sure, the male x female one would be less cracky than the other combinations, but that's just statistics. Since, statistically, the two people in the "pairing" are more likely to be straight than gay, any pairing that assumes otherwise without any evidence is more cracky than a pairing that makes an assumption in line with the average.

(Obviously in the case of a unit like Heather, there is evidence so her crackiest pairings would be with males.)

Edited November 29, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[mai]

You're stretching the meaning of "crack pairing" a bit. Crack pairings make absolutely no sense, but both IkexSoren and RavenxLucius make sense, even if they're not explicit canon (there's a LOT of subtext, though).

Not every pairing that isn't canon is a crack pairing. For example, RanulfxLethe isn't a canon pairing, but it's not a crack pairing either (they're from the same country, they had a support in PoR, they're more or less close to each other), while, say, EdwardxMia is crack because we're not even sure they actually met each other.

Edited November 29, 2010 by mai

[Narga_Rocks]

You're stretching the meaning of "crack pairing" a bit. Crack pairings make absolutely no sense, but both IkexSoren and RavenxLucius make sense, even if they're not explicit canon (there's a LOT of subtext, though).

No there isn't. Pick out a line where you think it is implying something that makes you drool over it. I'll tell you why you are wrong.

Not every pairing that isn't canon is a crack pairing. For example, RanulfxLethe isn't a canon pairing, but it's not a crack pairing either (they're from the same country, they had a support in PoR, they're more or less close to each other), while, say, EdwardxMia is crack because we're not even sure they actually met each other.

Ranulf x Lethe is most definitely crack. What do you see that suggests otherwise? Friends that are from the same country and have a support is now enough for you to justify a pairing? Gee, no wonder you have these delusions about Ike and Soren as well as Raven and Lucius.

[mai]

No there isn't. Pick out a line where you think it is implying something that makes you drool over it. I'll tell you why you are wrong.

I don't drool over IkexSoren. Both Ike and Soren are among my least favourite Fire Emblem characters, and I don't like the pairing at all, but I'm not blind enough not to see what's there. They're very close to each other, and if they have an A support with each other in RD, they go away together to explore new lands. Note that Ike doesn't let anyone but Soren go with him, which at the very least means he likes his company most than anyone else's. There's no way to prove that they're not in love, which means the possibility at least exists.

And as for RavenxLucius, the pairings is obvious enough that Priscilla was jealous of Lucius because of his relationship with her brother. That HAS to mean something.

Ranulf x Lethe is most definitely crack. What do you see that suggests otherwise? Friends that are from the same country and have a support is now enough for you to justify a pairing? Gee, no wonder you have these delusions about Ike and Soren as well as Raven and Lucius.

RanulfxLethe was just an example, I don't like them as a pairing either. I'm not saying it's canon or that it's even close to canon, I was just saying that there's a middle ground between crack pairing and canon pairing, and that's what you seem to refuse to admit.

[Axie]

Well, it goes back to what I said before, doesn't it? Pairings can be crack, but what is truly delusional is to lump things like Raven/Lucius and Lyn/Florina with things like... Marcus/Merlinus, and say they are all "crack". Subtext is certainly arguable, but no evidence other than a innocent paired ending is way more crack.

As crack as it is, the notion of Marcus/Merlinus is still too awful - and I fully blame that on Merlinus as he is so vile.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Axie

[Zkirsche]

"All you?" The only people I see pairing the two together are tier debaters, and that's for efficiency purposes only.

*coughIdocough*

Best: Jill x Mist.

Worst: Soren x Ike.

[LycopolisKing]

I knew this topic would end up all over the place.

Very confused on how to select pairs. Is this a 'I thought/wish they could be paired' thing based on their support conversations?

Best: Caineghis X Elincia, a personal invention and favorite. Runner up to Rolf X Mist. It had so much going for it - where the heck did Boyd X Mist come from?

Worst: Ike X Soren, runner up Ephraim X Eirika and all the other sibling pairs.

I nominate Best/Worst Talking / Text noise. (New Mystery finally fixed it, in my opinion.)

Edited December 1, 2010 by Maria's Bro

[Zak Something]

But Furet, HolynxAyra isn't a crack pairing. It's very much canon.

[spoiler=from Kaga's notes]The others who went to Isaac with Celice included Adean and Jamka's son Lester, Lachesis and Beowolf's son Delmud, as well as Ira and Lex's twins Skasaher and Lakche.

Best: Alec x Sylvia. At least I consider it a crack pairing.

Worst: Alec x Briggid

[Thor Odinson]

[spoiler=from Kaga's notes]The others who went to Isaac with Celice included Adean and Jamka's son Lester, Lachesis and Beowolf's son Delmud, as well as Ira and Lex's twins Skasaher and Lakche.

Kaga himself liked AyraLex better, but he also had version one and version two. I think HolynAyra was version two.

Or else why would Holyn give the same Hero Sword?

[Parrhesia]

LeXAyra doesn't even really make sense. They're both belligerent and...I dunno, are strongly emotional with regards to their own family?

[Thor Odinson]

[spoiler=here's what Kaga REALLY said about the pairings.]

Kaga mentions being nervous about posting his "dream scenario". However, there is a reason for this since the original text cannot be taken at face value. Especially as the game was originally going to be split into 3 parts. So they aren't official settings, nor are they based on official settings. They are just mere dreams, he supposes.

In any case, it seems the pairings were divided into various patterns (at least 0, 1 and 2). Pattern (1) includes Ira x Lex and Briggid x Jamka. While, for instance, Adean x Jamka and Ira x Holyn are Pattern (2) pairings.

In Pattern (1), all the female 1st Generation characters survive (or are brought back to life). In Fury and Levin's case, after some time passes, they are brought back to life by the power of Holsety.

Yurius was also going to return to his original state at the end (through the power of Yuria's love). Sadly only a few of the 1st Generation male characters survived. The third part was going to be a story about the parents and children reuniting. Those who weren't Sigurd's regular subordinates would not make a triumphant return (but are subjugated).

[Zak Something]

Oh yeah. I skimmed through that section. >_<

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't drool over IkexSoren. Both Ike and Soren are among my least favourite Fire Emblem characters, and I don't like the pairing at all, but I'm not blind enough not to see what's there. They're very close to each other, and if they have an A support with each other in RD, they go away together to explore new lands. Note that Ike doesn't let anyone but Soren go with him, which at the very least means he likes his company most than anyone else's. There's no way to prove that they're not in love, which means the possibility at least exists.

Is Ranulf really so forgettable? (If you can't figure out on your own why I'm asking that then I should stop trying to penetrate your reality distortion field)

There's no way to prove a lot of units aren't in love. Maybe Sothe and Nephenee had something happen off-screen that the writers just feel wasn't important enough to mention. Stating that I "can't prove that they're not in love" is one of the worst arguments in existence.

The game gives no hints or mentions of them being in love, and therefore to suggest the pairing is to create a crack-pairing. Hence, Soren x Ike is crack. What's difficult about this? It's not canon, therefore it is crack. I'll grant that at least they are friends and talk to each other so it might be less crack-y than certain other pairings, but this in no way changes the fact that it IS crack.

RanulfxLethe was just an example, I don't like them as a pairing either. I'm not saying it's canon or that it's even close to canon, I was just saying that there's a middle ground between crack pairing and canon pairing, and that's what you seem to refuse to admit.

And what name do you have for this middle-ground? It needs a name, and the best one I can find is "crack", since "crack" = "not canon". It actually IS binary. There are different levels of crack, but a pairing is still either crack or canon.

[Kay]

Best: MicaiahxZelgius

Worst: RolfxShinon

[Junkhead]

Um, I still don't see how SorenxIke is a crack pairing if they got voted in the Canon Pairings topic. =/

[NinjaMonkey]

So? AstridXMakalov is a canon couple, but is considered a crack pairing by some people.

[Axie]

Also, Hector and Florina can get married despite only even getting to talk with each other in their A Support. I don't think IS really cares if a pairing is crack or not when they choose which ones can be "canon".

Edited November 30, 2010 by Axie

[mai]

And what name do you have for this middle-ground? It needs a name, and the best one I can find is "crack", since "crack" = "not canon". It actually IS binary. There are different levels of crack, but a pairing is still either crack or canon.

Crack pairings aren't canon, but that doesn't mean all non-canon pairings are crack pairings. This shouldn't be so hard to understand. We don't need a name for this "middle ground" anyway.

Edit: actually, I'm going to quote TV Tropes on this:

Note that when characters do have some kind of relationship, no matter how unhealthy, insane or weird their pairing would be, it doesn't count as crack pairing. Contrast with Ho Yay, Foe Yay, No Yay, Twincest and Brother Sister Incest for examples of ships which you may find weird but which are not crack pairings...

There's no way to prove a lot of units aren't in love. Maybe Sothe and Nephenee had something happen off-screen that the writers just feel wasn't important enough to mention. Stating that I "can't prove that they're not in love" is one of the worst arguments in existence.

For God's sake, I'm not saying the pairing is canon because you can't prove they're not in love. I'm saying that the possibility exists, PLUS the fact that they have a paired ending, PLUS the fact that even if we ignore the paired ending, they're obviously as close to each other as two people can be.

Honestly, you seem terribly biased. We should just end this discussion/debate/whatever the hell this is, as it's not going anywhere.

And yes, IkexRanulf is also a possible canon choice. When did I say it wasn't?

Edited November 30, 2010 by mai

[Anouleth]

Best: MiledyxTreck

Worst: IkexMia

[Narga_Rocks]

Crack pairings aren't canon, but that doesn't mean all non-canon pairings are crack pairings. This shouldn't be so hard to understand. We don't need a name for this "middle ground" anyway.

Yes, all non-canon pairings are crack pairings. Why wouldn't they be? It is either crack or canon. Why do you think some middle ground even exists? How do you define crack and how do you define canon? It is either canon or it is not. Those that are in the "not" category are crack pairings because the fans created them. This shouldn't be so hard to understand.

For God's sake, I'm not saying the pairing is canon because you can't prove they're not in love. I'm saying that the possibility exists, PLUS the fact that they have a paired ending, PLUS the fact that even if we ignore the paired ending, they're obviously as close to each other as two people can be.

Honestly, you seem terribly biased. We should just end this discussion/debate/whatever the hell this is, as it's not going anywhere.

And yes, IkexRanulf is also a possible canon choice. When did I say it wasn't?

You said that Ike goes away with Soren and he doesn't go away with anyone else. "Note that Ike doesn't let anyone but Soren go with him," Are you retconning now? Besides, you seem biased since you refuse to accept that it is crack. I'm not saying you aren't allowed to enjoy your cracky pairings, whatever they may be. What do you have invested in this thing being non-crack? Are you getting something out of it and so you need to go to any lengths to prove that it isn't? What would you call it? It is a pairing that people made up that did not exist in the game. As far as I am concerned, that makes it crack. And the same goes for any other pairing that isn't explicitly stated in a game, too. It's not just about this one.

I'm saying that the possibility exists,

Just like I said the possibility exists that Sothe and Nephenee are hot for each other. You can't prove they aren't. What I said there is no more ridiculous or baseless than what you are saying. I think you should at least be able to understand that just because a possibility technically exists, doesn't mean we should give the possibility any consideration. If we are supposed to consider everything that has no evidence to be possible then there are a TON of things that we have been neglecting.

PLUS the fact that they have a paired ending,

I already pointed out a bunch of other units that have paired endings that aren't romantic. Why must you act like "paired ending = romantic"? Especially when the game gives no hints of that.

PLUS the fact that even if we ignore the paired ending, they're obviously as close to each other as two people can be.

And again I say why do you have this barrier in your mind of what friends can be? Why can two people only be a certain closeness without it being romantic and anything beyond that line suddenly implies romance to you?

[mai]

Honestly, what's the point? None of us are going to concede, and we're derailing the topic. I still don't think pairings like IkexSoren, RavenxLucius, HectorxFlorina etc., are crack pairings, but my opinion doesn't actually matter much, so yeah.

[Just call me AL]

Yes, all non-canon pairings are crack pairings. Why wouldn't they be? It is either crack or canon. Why do you think some middle ground even exists? How do you define crack and how do you define canon? It is either canon or it is not. Those that are in the "not" category are crack pairings because the fans created them. This shouldn't be so hard to understand.

So by your definition, you'd consider the Alicia Melchiott X Noce Wordsworth pairing (from VC) a crack pairing? (That isn't to say I support it or anything, especially since I'm an Alicia Melchiott X Welkin Gunther fan, but really. I honestly don't think that a type of pairing that eventually leads to the "unlucky childhood friend" scenario should count as a crack pairing.)

Adding to that, I do believe I mentioned several times before that there ARE crack pairings that also count as canon. If there was a sort of rule that a crack pairing cannot be canon, then the existence of the Otacon X Naomi, or the Johnny X Meryl pairings of MGS4 fame probably would have never occurred.

(Several different examples from two non-FE games were the best I could come up with. Give me a break.)

But personally, what I think that defines a crack pairing is the question of "does the pairing in question make sense as far as the context and the subtext is concerned?" If the pairing does in fact make little to no sense at all, then chances are that you've got yourself a crack pairing. It really shouldn't matter whether or not if the same exact pairing happens to be canon, because being canon would not be able to save a pairing from being crack in several cases. Canonicity =/= how much sense does a pairing makes after all.

Edited November 30, 2010 by LittleAl

[Axie]

Hector/Florina really should be all the proof one needs to believe "crack pairing" and "canon pairing" are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Axie