Drafting Tournaments Explained

[Junkhead]

If you look carefully I ALWAYS use the FE3 fansub names. I dislike the North American translation names.

For example, Barts or Barst.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Angru Mainya

[Integrity]

Bad Soul. Use the mostly good names.

[eclipse]

Finished Reverse Roundup Take 2 in 158 turns. . .man, I'm rusty!

[Integrity]

you slippin' girl

Logged, cheers.

[Darros]

I finished LHM Draft the Second! in 96 turns, and no, drafting isn't over yet.

[Integrity]

FE10 has seen quite a few recent drafts (even ignoring the draft to decide on a banned Haar), and FE7 has seen some drafts lately as well (albeit these had some quirks to the drafting process).

Perhaps I'm just tired of having to nitpick about the rulesets of drafts I see made (the ruleset for Lilmik's recent draft was horrible when it was posted, for example), but I think that having specific rulesets for each game here would:

- Make it easier for newer/less experienced drafters to start drafts

- Make it clearer what undrafted units can and can't do

- Be a better way to list specifics and exceptions for each game (such as the BEXP limits for FE9, until/if we come up with something better)

- Contribute to the 'completeness' of the purpose of this topic (this one is a matter of opinion, though)

Also, having a ruleset that people can copy and paste in no way prevents people from making their own changes when starting a draft.

Since it hasn't been touched on in a few days, I'd like to see more on this. I think my original reasons for making the Generic Ruleset what it is rather than a series of copypastable spoiler-tagged specifics has become obsolete if it was really ever relevant.

So what are some more general thoughts on leaving the Generic Ruleset vice changing it to Generic Rulesets, specific per-game, instant draft just add water?

EDIT: Also, Darros, man, that's not helpful for me until the draft is in the log, which it won't be until drafting is done :P

Edited August 14, 2011 by Integrity

[Kaoz]

If I may say something on the matter, are there any disadvantages to having specific rulesets? Because if there are none, seeing as there are definately some pros, not changing it wouldn't make much sense.

[Darros]

EDIT: Also, Darros, man, that's not helpful for me until the draft is in the log, which it won't be until drafting is done :P

Lucky for you, Drafting just finished. And so did frat_tastic.

Drafters and teams:

1. Spy: Kent, Rath, Erk - 96 turns

4. frat_tastic: Florina, Wil, Lucius - 75 turns

2. Mister Cold: Sain, Nils, Wallace

3. Rein: Dorcas, Serra, Matthew

[Integrity]

@Darros: Cheers.

@Kaoz: I think my initial reasoning was to try to promote Draft Host Has Priority, but I think the experimental spirit is set in enough now that the people who wouldn't experiment would be happier with lawbooks and the people who would experiment will do so anyway.

[Darros]

Here's a FE3 draft list, I noticed you didn't have one. Marth and Jagen are free. Arran is draftable in Book 1. Endgame sisters are free. Sirius is banned.

Caeda

Cain

Abel

Draug

Gordin

Ogma

Barst

Cord

Bord

Castor

Julian

Lena

Navarre

Merric

Matthis

Hardin

Wolf

Sedgar

Vyland

Roshea

Wendell

Rickard

Bantu

Caesar

Radd

Jeorge

Maria

Minerva

Linde

Midia

Dolph

Macellan

Tomas

Boah

Astram

Palla

Catria

Arran

Samson

Xane

Est

Tiki

Lorenz

Elice

Cecil

Luke

Rody

Ryan

Malliesia

Warren

Yumina

Yubello

Samto

Feena

Ellerean

Sheema

Edited August 14, 2011 by Spykitty

[Whitefang]

I have finished the FE11 Random Reclass Roundup Take 2 in 147 turns.

[Integrity]

Appreciate it, Darros, but I'll wait on actually implementing that list until we've some more consensus on the generic ruleset.

[Radiant Dragon]

I haven't seen any arguments against them, but perhaps listing the rulesets would generate more discussion? I'm not including FE8 and FE11 since FE8 still needs work and I don't know anything about FE11 drafting. Snake drafting style is assumed.

[spoiler=FE4 for 4 participants]Drafting:

1. Units that are free for all to use are: Sigurd, Diadora, Celice, Oifaye and Julia.

2. First, the mothers are drafted, and their children come with them. Example: Drafting Ayra gives you Ayra, Lakche and Skasaher.

3. Then, the rest of the characters (father characters, fixed characters and substitute characters) are drafted. The order for this part of the draft is reversed, so the person who went last picking mothers goes first picking these characters.

4. One character will remain undrafted.

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may only: Recruit characters, initiate Talk conversations and special events that do not require the participants to be lovers and lose a match in the Arena then die to an enemy (unequipped). This is to prevent undrafted mothers from falling in love and causing you to miss drafted substitutes.

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to: Meatshielding, giving Charisma bonuses, using the Give command or participating in Lover or Sibling criticals.

3. Other and Neutral units may do as they please without penalty.

4. Arena use is allowed and encouraged.

Penalties:

1. Non-holy weapon users (Noish, Ayra etc.) have a 3 turn penalty per unit per castle.

2. Holy weapon users (Levin, Shanan etc.) and Dancers have a 7 turn penalty per unit per castle. Example: Using Noish (if undrafted) in route to Jungby results in a 3 turn penalty. Once Sigurd seizes Jungby, you take another 3 turn penalty if you use Noish while in route to Evans.

3. Using the Give command is a 12 turn penalty, apparently.

Exceptions:

1. Brigid, Claude and Tiltyu are free to use in Chapter 3.

2. Dew may lower the bridge in Chapter 4 if undrafted. He may not perform any other disallowed actions without penalty.

3. Leaf, Fin and Nanna/Jane are free to use in Chapter 7.

4. Shanan is free to use in Chapter 7 until Yied is seized.

[spoiler=Draftable Units](Ethlin, Leaf, Altenna)

(Aideen, Lana, Lester)

(Ayra, Lakche, Skasaher)

(Lachesis, Delmud, Nanna)

(Sylvia, Leen, Corple)

(Fury, Fee, Sety)

(Tiltyu, Arthur, Tinny)

(Briggid, Patty, Faval)

Noish

Alec

Ardan

Azel

Lex

Cuan

Fin

Midir

Dew

Jamka

Holyn

Levin

Beowulf

Claude

Mana

Radney

Rodolban

Tristan

Dimna

Femina

Amid

Johan

Johalva

Shanan

Daisy

Janne

Ares

Laylea

Linda

Asaello

Hawk

Hannibal

Sharlow

[spoiler=FE5 for 4 participants]Drafting:

1. Units that are free for all to use are: Leaf, Evayle and Sety or Cyas.

2. The game is played on Elite Mode.

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may: Recruit characters, rescue undrafted units and NPCs, trade, visit Shops, Armories and Storage houses and Escape.

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to: Meatshielding and Capturing or getting Captured.

3. Warp is banned until Chapter 21, excluding Chapter 16B (The Dark Forest). Warp and Rescue may never be used on Leaf.

4. All Gaiden chapters except Chapter 24x are required to be visited, and do not count towards the total turncount up to 20 turns taken per chapter.

5. NPCs may do as they please without penalty.

Penalties:

1. Undrafted characters have a 4 turn penalty per unit per chapter. I haven't played FE5, so tell me if anyone needs to have a higher penalty.

2. Skipping a Gaiden chapter other than 24x results in a 20 turn penalty.

Exceptions:

1. Two undrafted, non-Rifis units are free for the Manster escape (Chapters 4 - 7).

2. Dagda and Tanya are free for Chapter 8x.

3. Glade and his knights are free for Chapter 13.

4. Undrafted Thieves may be used to obtain necessary Master Proofs.

[spoiler=Draftable Units]Fin

Othin

Havan

Dagda

Tanya

Marty

Ronan

Safy

Lifis

Makua

Brighton

Lara

Fergus

Karin

Dalshin

Asvel

Nanna

Hicks

Shiva

Carrion

Selphina

Kein

Alba

Robert

Fred

Olwen

Mareeta

Salem

Pahn

Trewd

Tina

Glade

Dean

Eda

Homeros

Linoan

Ralph

Eyrios

Sleuf

Misha

Sara

Shanam

Miranda

Xavier

Amalda

Conomore

Delmud

Galzus

[spoiler=FE6 for 5 participants]Drafting:

1. Units that are free for all are: Roy, Marcus, Merlinus, Lalum or Elphin and Fa.

2. Three units will remain undrafted.

3. The game is played on Normal Mode.

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may: Recruit characters, rescue undrafted units and NPCs, trade, visit Shops and Armories and dig up items in the desert.

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to: Meatshielding, building Supports and opening Doors or Chests.

3. Use of the Warp staff is banned.

4. All Gaiden chapters are required to be visited. Chapter 20x (either route) does not count towards the total turncount up to 20 turns taken.

5. Other units may do as they please without penalty.

Penalties:

1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty per unit, per chapter.

2. Ending the game at Chapter 22 results in a 50 turn penalty.

Exceptions:

1. Undrafted Thieves may be used to obtain necessary Promotion items.

[spoiler=Draftable Units]Alan

Lance

Wolt

Bors

Ellen

Dieck

Ward

Lot

Thany

Chad

Lugh

Clarine

Rutger

Saul

Dorothy

Sue

Zealot

Treck

Noah

Astohl

Lilina

Wendy

Barth

Oujay

Fir

Shin

Gonzales

Geese

Klein

Tate

Echidna

Bartre

Ray

Cath

Miredy

Percival

Cecilia

Sophia

Igrene

Garret

Hugh

Zeis

Douglas

Niime

Juno

Dayan

Yodel

Karel

[spoiler=FE 7 for 5 participants]Drafting:

1. Units that are free for all are: Hector, Marcus, Merlinus, Ninian and Nils/Serra and Athos.

2. Bartre and Karla are drafted as a pair.

3. Geitz and Wallace will remain undrafted.

4. If the game is played on Hector Normal Mode, Marcus is banned after Chapter 16.

5. If the game is played on Hector Hard Mode, Serra is free for all and Ninian and Nils are drafted as a pair.

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may: Recruit characters, rescue undrafted units and NPCs, trade, visit Shops and Armories and dig up items in the desert.

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to: Meatshielding, building Supports, opening Doors or Chests, Talking to Fargus in Chapter 17x or Seizing Castles in Chapter 25.

3. All Gaiden Chapters except 19xx, 24x and 28x are required to be visited. 24x and 28x may be visited at the player's discretion, and don't count towards the total turncount up to 20 turns taken per chapter.

4. Other units may do as they please without penalty.

Penalties:

1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty, per unit per chapter.

Exceptions:

1. Matthew is free for Chapter 11.

2. Meatshielding is allowed for Chapter 13x.

3. Lyn, Kent, Sain and Wil are free for Chapter 16.

4. Undrafted Thieves may be used to obtain necessary Promotion items.

[spoiler=Draftable Units]Matthew

Serra

Oswin

Eliwood

Lowen

Rebecca

Dorcas

Bartre and Karla

Guy

Erk

Priscilla

Florina

Lyn

Sain

Kent

Wil

Raven

Lucius

Canas

Dart

Fiora

Legault

Isadora

Heath

Rath

Hawkeye

Farina

Pent

Louise

Karel

Harken

Nino

Jaffar

Vaida

Renault

[spoiler=FE9 for 5 participants]Drafting:

1. Units that are free for all to use are: Ike, Titania and one of Tibarn, Naesala or Giffca.

2. Nasir will remain undrafted.

3. The game is played on Fixed Hard Mode.

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may: Recruit characters, Rescue and Shove/Smite undrafted characters and NPCs, trade, Escape and dig up items in the desert.

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to: Meatshielding, building Supports, Shoving/Smiting undrafted characters, opening Doors and Chests and Arriving.

3. There are limits to how much BEXP may be used, and are explained in detail below.

4. Partner and Other units may do as they please without penalty.

Penalties:

1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty, per unit per chapter (Chapter 17 is 4 chapters).

Exceptions:

1. Reyson and Janaff or Ulki may be used to obtain the Knight Ring if undrafted. They may not perform any other disallowed actions without penalty.

BEXP Limits:

1. Use the table below to determine how much BEXP you're allowed to give your units when you're first able to give them BEXP. Characters are listed as either a level (such as 10/--) or an amount (such as 2.xx). You may use BEXP to get them to the level shown or give them the amount shown (Example: 2.xx would mean you're allowed to cap off their current level, then give them 2 more levels).

2. At the beginning of each chapter, you may give your units 50 EXP worth of BEXP.

3. Once you reach Endgame, you may distribute BEXP freely to whoever you wish.

4. Titania may not be given BEXP until Endgame.

[spoiler=Table of BEXP limits]

Ike:		+0.xx
Boyd:		+0.xx
Oscar:		+0.xx
Rhys:		+4.xx
Soren:		+3.xx
Mia:		+3.xx
Ilyana:		+3.xx
Rolf:		+7.xx
Mist:		+6.xx
Marcia:		+2.xx
Lethe:		+0.00
Mordecai:	+0.00
Volke:		12/--
Kieran:		13/--
Brom:		12/--
Nephenee:	10/--
Zihark:		+1.xx
Sothe:		09/--
Jill:		+2.xx
Astrid:		+5.xx
Gatrie:		+2.xx
Makalov:	+3.xx
Stefan:		+0.00
Tormod:		14/--
Muarim:		+0.00
Devdan:		+1.xx
Tanith:		+0.00
Reyson:		+0.00
Janaff:		--/10
Ulki:		--/10
Shinon:		+6.xx
Calill:		--/08
Tauroneo:	+1.xx
Ranulf:		--/12
Haar:		+1.xx
Lucia:		+3.xx
Bastian:	+3.xx
Geoffrey:	--/13
Largo:		--/10
Elincia:	--/07
Ena:		--/15

[spoiler=Draftable Units]Oscar

Boyd

Rhys

Gatrie

Shinon

Soren

Mia

Ilyana

Mist

Rolf

Marcia

Lethe

Mordecai

Volke

Kieran

Brom

Nephenee

Zihark

Sothe

Jill

Astrid

Makalov

Stefan

Tormod

Muarim

Devdan

Tanith

Reyson

Janaff

Ulki

Calill

Tauroneo

Haar

Ranulf

Bastian

Lucia

Geoffrey

Largo

Elincia

Ena

[spoiler=FE10 for 7 participants]Drafting:

1. Units that are free for all are: Ike, Micaiah, Sothe, Geoffrey, the Herons, the Black Knight and Lehran.

2. The drafting order is reversed for the last round of picks.

3. Haar is banned from drafting.

4. The game is played on Normal or Hard Mode.

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may: Recruit characters, Rescue and Shove/Smite undrafted characters and NPCs, trade, Escape and transfer items/skills between teams.

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to: Meatshielding, building Supports, Shoving/Smiting undrafted characters, opening Doors and Chests, finding hidden items, Arriving and giving Blood Tide, Night Tide or White Pool bonuses.

3. Allied and Other units may do as they please without penalty.

Penalties:

1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty, per unit per chapter (1-6 is 2 chapters, and 4-E is 5 chapters).

Exceptions:

1. One of Edward or Nolan is free for each of 1-P, 1-1 and 1-2.

2. Volug is free for 1-5.

3. Elincia, Marcia and Nealuchi are free for 2-P

4. Nephenee and Brom are free for 2-1.

5. One undrafted, non-Lucia unit is free for 2-1.

6. One undrafted, 7 move unit is free for 3-1.

7. One undrafted, 6 move unit is free for 3-3.

[spoiler=Draftable Units]Edward

Leonardo

Nolan

Laura

Ilyana

Aran

Meg

Volug

Jill

Zihark

Tauroneo

Fiona

Tormod

Muarim

Vika

Nailah

Elincia

Marcia

Nealuchi

Brom

Nephenee

Heather

Lucia

Mordecai

Lethe

Kieran

Astrid

Makalov

Danved

Calill

Titania

Soren

Mist

Rolf

Boyd

Oscar

Shinon

Gatrie

Rhys

Mia

Ranulf

Kyza

Lyre

Janaff

Ulki

Sigrun

Tanith

Skrimir

Naesala

Sanaki

Tibarn

Pelleas

Stefan

Oliver

Bastian

Volke

Caineghis

Giffca

Kurthnaga

Ena

Renning

Nasir

Gareth

These are not perfect (most likely), but they're a place to start.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Kaoz]

No clue whether you changed the BEXP limits, but I guess I'll repost this anyway...

I guess I could've started a new convo for this, but w/e...

Basically, I noticed that you removed the BEXP limits and the ones Core uses for his draft are kinda suboptimal (not to say that mine were perfect, but I think you see where I'm coming from). Anyway, I figured that throwing random numbers as limiters maybe isn't the best way to do this, so I figured working out some actual criteria might be a good idea.

BEXP limits, as far as I can tell, have two goals:

1) Keeping Marcia and Jill in check, so that people that didn't draft either actually have a chance

2) Not screwing over anyone else in the process

Personally, I'd like to add to that that units shouldn't be strong enough that they can completly trivialize the game (an example of this would be BEXPing Zihark to 20/03, so that he can 1RKO all of Ch. 12), it simply makes it more interesting.

I think that probably the easiest way to do this would be to look at what units actually NEED BEXP to be useful (e.g. Rolf) and give them just enough to be useable, then simply ban BEXP for all other units. Whether it's the best way, I dunno but probably not, if you went through each unit and each chapter, you could probably balance this game pretty well.

However, this is meant to be food for thought, nothing more, the concrete analysis should probably be done by people like RFoF, RD or yourself and not me. Before you ask (or maybe you don't care but just in case), I didn't post this in the thread because I'm not actually participating in drafts (the Franz thing was an exception because banning should be a last resort, nothing you do to every game's best unit just because) and likely won't in the near future.

[Radiant Dragon]

Huh... How did I miss that?

Obviously, the BEXP limits aren't perfect, since they've seen so little use, but I think that they do a fine job of what you're describing, while still letting good units that need an initial transfusion (Marcia and Makalov come to mind) get one. I suppose that getting rid of the '50 EXP' clause may not be a bad idea, but I would personally vote for it's inclusion.

As for Franz, I'm honestly not sure what should be done about FE8. We could ban Seth and make Franz free for all, then Vanessa causes problems. Not to mention that the rest of the early game units are just kinda... there. Garcia and Joshua are alright, but everyone else is pretty mediocre when it comes to saving turns early on, so it would be hard for them to match what Vanessa can do.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Psych]

Well, if the first person drafts Vanessa, then who do you have? Garcia, Joshua, probably some good mid game like Saleh or Dussel depending on the route. Maybe Kyle or Forde, then perhaps Tana. By the time Vanessa's drafter gets another chance, who's left? There's not much. I usually take Lute, so there's that. But you'd have to see when she'd be able to promote to see how optimal that is.

[Radiant Dragon]

That's not the point, Psych. Are any of those characters able to about the same amount of turns Vanessa can? I imagine that Eirika, Franz and Vanessa with some scrub support would be all anyone needs. I'm not very familiar with playing FE8 efficiently though, so I'd like to hear from people who are.

[Kaoz]

Huh... How did I miss that?

Obviously, the BEXP limits aren't perfect, since they've seen so little use, but I think that they do a fine job of what you're describing, while still letting good units that need an initial transfusion (Marcia and Makalov come to mind) get one. I suppose that getting rid of the '50 EXP' clause may not be a bad idea, but I would personally vote for it's inclusion.

Why would you include that clause? I don't see the point honestly =/

I admittedly didn't keep up with the latest drafts, so I'm not sure whether this is an issue, but (and this is especially true with the +50 EXP per chapter) as it is I'm a bit unsure about Marcia and Jill regarding Ch. 17. Given a high enough level, they can 3 turn 17-2 and 2 turn 17-4, and might save a turn in 17-1 (terrain) as well.

Devdan, Tauroneo and Haar probably don't need that one extra level.

At what point is Mist supposed to promote (assuming Lv 10 and Master Seal)? If it's before Ch. 14, assuming no extra EXP per chapter, maybe giving her an additional level might not be a bad idea.

Rolf and Shinon should probably get a few more levels if they are supposed to be somewhat useful. Same with Brom, Gatrie and maybe even Zihark and Nephenee. Again, assuming no extra EXP.

That's all I got for now I think...

[Radiant Dragon]

Why would you include that clause? I don't see the point honestly =/

Mostly to let foot units (especially staffbots) keep up experience wise with the teams that have the mounted units, I believe. You'd have to ask the ones who suggested it in the first place.

I admittedly didn't keep up with the latest drafts, so I'm not sure whether this is an issue, but (and this is especially true with the +50 EXP per chapter) as it is I'm a bit unsure about Marcia and Jill regarding Ch. 17. Given a high enough level, they can 3 turn 17-2 and 2 turn 17-4, and might save a turn in 17-1 (terrain) as well.

Well yeah, fliers will always have the advantage of being able to ignore terrain over other units. Not sure what we can do about that, though.

Devdan, Tauroneo and Haar probably don't need that one extra level.

It's mostly to help their mediocre Speed bases.

At what point is Mist supposed to promote (assuming Lv 10 and Master Seal)? If it's before Ch. 14, assuming no extra EXP per chapter, maybe giving her an additional level might not be a bad idea.

Rolf and Shinon should probably get a few more levels if they are supposed to be somewhat useful. Same with Brom, Gatrie and maybe even Zihark and Nephenee. Again, assuming no extra EXP.

Perhaps. Again, the levels right now are merely estimates, and are not backed by any kind of playtesting whatsoever.

[Kaoz]

Mostly to let foot units (especially staffbots) keep up experience wise with the teams that have the mounted units, I believe. You'd have to ask the ones who suggested it in the first place.

But the mounted units also get the extra EXP, so nothing actually changes in that matter. That being said, who had the idea?

Well yeah, fliers will always have the advantage of being able to ignore terrain over other units. Not sure what we can do about that, though.

Give them worse combat stats (read less/no BEXP)? For example, Tana joins in Ch. 9 at Lv 4, but is still a pretty decent pick. Florina is a 1st or 2nd pick unit as well as far as I have seen.

It's mostly to help their mediocre Speed bases.

Tauroneo won't double anything anytime soon, Haar can fly. I can see Danved.

Perhaps. Again, the levels right now are merely estimates, and are not backed by any kind of playtesting whatsoever.

;/

Would anyone be interested in another experimental PoR draft? I'd be willing to host and make some suggestions regarding the limits, but wouldn't participate.

[Florete]

Why would you include that clause? I don't see the point honestly =/

What's bad about being able to regularly use BEXP?

[Kaoz]

What's bad about being able to regularly use BEXP?

That's all you got? Am I to assume that the sole reason for why it was added was "Why not?"?

Not that I'm the one who has to proof anything here, but let's take a look at Core's draft, specifically Marcia's performance in her most critical chapters...

Chapter 12 7/83

Marcia was given the draco for this chapter. And an iron crit forge. Couldve been 3 turns but i decided against promoting marcia so early. In turn 7, the robe raven was critkilled and the other remaining raven sd'd too.

Chapter 15 3 turns/97

Sothe went for the boots. Marcia for muarim with the laguz lance. She doubled muarim after the level up from when the tigers attacked her. Sothe got shoved by soren and he got the boots. Astrid rolf and soren all got some kills.

Chapter 17 (17-1: 4) (17-2: 4) (17-3: 10) (17-4: 3) = 21/125

I'm guessing that 17-2 and 17-4 could have been completed in one turn less each, but weren't because of bad starting positions.

So when we look at Marcia's performance here and compare it to the one she had before introducing the limits, pretty much nothing changed. Assuming the 3 turn for chapter 12 instead of the 7 turn, chapter 15 might take a turn longer, chapter 17 likely wouldn't be affected very much. In other words, the first goal that I listed as criteria for BEXP already failed.

Furthermore, the more BEXP you are distributing this way, the more you devalue units that join later. For example, Mia with +3.xx and 50 extra EXP per chapter is at Level 12 after chapter 11, solely based on this. The best Zihark could get through his +1.xx is... Level 12. So not only will Mia be at a higher level than Zihark when he joins (BEXP + any CEXP she will get), but she was also able to contribute for 4-5 more chapters (depending on when Zihark is recruited during his chapter). That doesn't exactly scream balance and there are more examples of this, especially if we're not limiting ourselves to units of the same class.

Lastly, by constantly giving out more free EXP, chances are that the game will be trivialized relatively soon (which was the extra criteria I listed), which means player skill will mean less and less.

[Florete]

That's all you got? Am I to assume that the sole reason for why it was added was "Why not?"?

Don't fix what isn't broken. As far as I'm concerned the problems lie in the units, not the amount of BEXP we can distribute.

Plus, that was a legitimate question, so I don't appreciate such a provocative response.

Not that I'm the one who has to proof anything here,

Yes, you are, actually, because you're the one trying to make a change in the established norm.

I'm guessing that 17-2 and 17-4 could have been completed in one turn less each, but weren't because of bad starting positions.

So when we look at Marcia's performance here and compare it to the one she had before introducing the limits, pretty much nothing changed. Assuming the 3 turn for chapter 12 instead of the 7 turn, chapter 15 might take a turn longer, chapter 17 likely wouldn't be affected very much. In other words, the first goal that I listed as criteria for BEXP already failed.

Chapter 15 should/could have been two turns, but oh well.

Furthermore, the more BEXP you are distributing this way, the more you devalue units that join later. For example, Mia with +3.xx and 50 extra EXP per chapter is at Level 12 after chapter 11, solely based on this. The best Zihark could get through his +1.xx is... Level 12. So not only will Mia be at a higher level than Zihark when he joins (BEXP + any CEXP she will get), but she was also able to contribute for 4-5 more chapters (depending on when Zihark is recruited during his chapter). That doesn't exactly scream balance and there are more examples of this, especially if we're not limiting ourselves to units of the same class.

Tough for later joining units. That's drafts for you. You'll always want units who are around longer than others, in general, because you can't just use whoever you want. We have no reason to give higher value to late-joining units. It's their fault for not matching up.

Lastly, by constantly giving out more free EXP, chances are that the game will be trivialized relatively soon (which was the extra criteria I listed), which means player skill will mean less and less.

This happens anyway. I made a remark in an RD draft once that it ends up coming down to finding the right positioning that gets the most enemies killed rather than being able to actually kill things. However, keep in mind that that still requires skill to pull off. I don't think it's a problem.

Now, I do think Marcia and Jill's performance is a problem for FE9 drafts, but getting rid of BEXP for everyone is a terrible idea. Integrity's experimental draft that only I even finished had the initial limits and then no use of BEXP after that. And I hated it. I had to seriously push myself to complete that because it just wasn't fun. Having units that can't regularly ORKO early on in the game when Titania is at her best, enemy density is lower, and maps are smaller is not so big a deal, but having the same units in big maps with lots of enemies makes finding good strategies a pain in the ass, particularly in this game with no save states/battle save nor ability to turn off map animations. Plus, taking away BEXP entirely doesn't help the balance issue at all because Marcia and Jill's advantages are still there while others haven't improved in any way. A better idea would be to put a tighter limit on the BEXP those two can intake. Either keep them with their starting level but allow none after that or never allow more than 50 BEXP per chapter, maybe even less.

To fix the balance you have to bring them down alone, not take everyone down at the same time.

[Kaoz]

Don't fix what isn't broken. As far as I'm concerned the problems lie in the units, not the amount of BEXP we can distribute.

Plus, that was a legitimate question, so I don't appreciate such a provocative response.

Yes, you are, actually, because you're the one trying to make a change in the established norm.

Except that it wasn't there when the limits were first introduced. So in other words, you(?) changed the norm by introducing the extra EXP after each chapter, and I was asking for why that was done.

I apologize for being rude.

Tough for later joining units. That's drafts for you. You'll always want units who are around longer than others, in general, because you can't just use whoever you want. We have no reason to give higher value to late-joining units. It's their fault for not matching up.

That's not always the case though. For example, Pent joins rather late, but is still one of the best picks. And in FE9, we can fix these issues by giving later joining units a higher level, which means that you'd have to decide what you value more, a weaker unit that's around longer or a stronger one that has less chapters. Given that we can balance the game this way, I don't see why we wouldn't want to do it.

This happens anyway. I made a remark in an RD draft once that it ends up coming down to finding the right positioning that gets the most enemies killed rather than being able to actually kill things. However, keep in mind that that still requires skill to pull off. I don't think it's a problem.

I would say there's a difference between pulling this off with one overpowered unit that ORKOs everything and never dies or multiple weaker ones, I personally think the latter case is more desirable as a unit's individual attributes are more important.

Now, I do think Marcia and Jill's performance is a problem for FE9 drafts, but getting rid of BEXP for everyone is a terrible idea. Integrity's experimental draft that only I even finished had the initial limits and then no use of BEXP after that. And I hated it. I had to seriously push myself to complete that because it just wasn't fun. Having units that can't regularly ORKO early on in the game when Titania is at her best, enemy density is lower, and maps are smaller is not so big a deal, but having the same units in big maps with lots of enemies makes finding good strategies a pain in the ass, particularly in this game with no save states/battle save nor ability to turn off map animations. Plus, taking away BEXP entirely doesn't help the balance issue at all because Marcia and Jill's advantages are still there while others haven't improved in any way. A better idea would be to put a tighter limit on the BEXP those two can intake. Either keep them with their starting level but allow none after that or never allow more than 50 BEXP per chapter, maybe even less.

To fix the balance you have to bring them down alone, not take everyone down at the same time.

Notice that I didn't say we should get rid of BEXP altogether. I also admit that I was too conservative with the limits at that time.

What I would suggest is to take into account a unit's join time, starting level and non combat utility, and the worse those are, the more BEXP that unit should get.

In case of Marcia and Jill, flying is that great of a utility, that they don't actually need BEXP to be useful, hence I wouldn't give them any at all. On the other hand, someone like Rolf who is locked to 2 range and has no other utilities should get a lot to make up for that.

[eclipse]

Alright, since SOMEONE has to do SD. . .

A/N 1: If you want to make a thief free, tweak the rules. Personally, I'd make one free for utility, and that's all (a la 7).

A/N 2: If you are doing a non-Normal draft, don't forget to remove Frey and Norne from the draft list!

A/N 3: I'm probably missing something. Hit me over the head, will ya?

[spoiler=FE 11 for 5 participants]Drafting:

1. Units that are free for all are: Marth, Jagen and Nagi/Gotoh.

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may: Recruit characters, visit houses, trade, and meatshield. ONE undrafted character may be used to shop.

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to: Opening chests/doors, shop (besides the exception above).

3. All prologue and gaiden chapters are free for the first 20 turns. After that, add X - 20 turns to your count, where X is the number of turns you took. Each prologue chapter counts as one chapter.

4. You are free to reclass undrafted units to whatever you want.

Other:

1. Forging, Wi-Fi Shop, and usage of the Warp staff are strictly prohibited.

2. You may not use loaner units.

Penalties:

1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty, per unit per chapter.

[spoiler=Draftable Units]Cain

Abel

Frey

Norne

Caeda

Gordin

Draug

Wrys

Ogma

Bord

Cord

Barst

Castor

Darros

Julian

Lena

Navarre

Merric

Matthis

Hardin

Sedgar

Wolf

Roshea

Vyland

Wendell

Rickard

Athena

Bantu

Caesar

Radd

Roger

Jeorge

Maria

Minerva

Linde

Jake

Midia

Dolph

Macellan

Tomas

Boah

Horace

Beck

Astram

Palla

Catria

Arran

Samson

Xane

Etzel

Est

Tiki

Lorenz

Ymir

Elice