dondon151 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I think that with the current popularity of draft tournaments, this would be a good idea to get away from the norm. A quick explanation as to how this works: Each participant is given a certain amount of "currency" to begin with. Draftable characters are put up for auction (likely in real time), with the highest bidder getting the drafted character on his or her team. There is no upper limit to how many characters can be drafted onto one's team. Characters, obviously, cannot be won if the bidder does not have the currency to pay for the character. So before we can get started on anything, there are a couple of logistics that need to be addressed: Participants Obviously, a necessary ingredient for any draft tournament. Keep in mind that the auction will likely be in real time, so make sure that you will have a block of free time during which you can participate. If you are interested in participating, please express your desire in this topic. Venue Since this draft is in real time, it needs to occur somewhere! The preferred drafting location is, at least for me, #feto. If you would like to participate and object to this venue, or would like to present an alternative (or have questions about getting to #feto), please do so in this topic. The draft can theoretically happen on a forum, but I think a real time auction is more fun. Time Participants will need to agree on a (generous) timeslot during which they will be available to draft. Game I don't know which game would be the best to start out with on this format, nor do I know which is preferred by the participants. I would not likely participate, but I know that a lot of people don't have access to a console, which precludes FE9 and FE10. Rules These will probably be the standard rules, but issues on free units, banned units, penalty amounts, etc. will need tweaking. Auction format This is a broad category, encompassing details like: - Auctioning characters 1 at a time, or all at once, or in groups of x characters, or... - Starting "credits" - Minimum bids and bid increments - Possible problems with "unbought" characters Anyway, that's all I can think of now, so, post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I would like to participate. My thoughts on some issues: - In my opinion, FE 9 would be a good place to start, if it wasn't for the console issue. FE 7 is another good choice, since FE 6 and 8 have quite a few useless characters that no one will bid for... - Free and banned units would probably be the same as other drafts, except for units that are usually free just to keep the character count divisible by the number of drafters. - I don't see an issue that would require to change the penalty amounts. Perhaps a higher penalty for using a unit that was heavily bid for? - Auctioning characters one at a time would probably be best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I don't think there's a need for banned characters in an auction, as each unit has a different "cost," so there's no "First pick Titania/Marcus/Seth win" issue, as picking one of them will probably cost you a majority of your credits and thus leave you short on other units. I do think that Lords should still be free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 I don't think there's a need for banned characters in an auction, as each unit has a different "cost," so there's no "First pick Titania/Marcus/Seth win" issue, as picking one of them will probably cost you a majority of your credits and thus leave you short on other units. But this necessarily means that one participant will get Marcus/Titania/Seth and almost nothing else while everyone else would have typical teams. It's better to just ban that character altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) I don't think there's a need for banned characters in an auction, as each unit has a different "cost," so there's no "First pick Titania/Marcus/Seth win" issue, as picking one of them will probably cost you a majority of your credits and thus leave you short on other units. I do think that Lords should still be free. The problem with a solution like that is that it would be almost impossible to come up with an appropiate price for that character. Having a 10% margin of error is fine on a cheap character like Ward or Bartre, but if Seth is costing 80% of your credits, it would be very easy for him to be overpriced (meaning whoever gets him is screwed) or underpriced (meaning whoever gets him is on easy street). And also what dondon said. I would be willing to join in with this, if you'd have me (I don't have a very good track record with finishing playthroughs). I don't particularly mind what FE it's done on, as long as it's not FE5 or earlier, and not FE10. Edited January 7, 2011 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 - In my opinion, FE 9 would be a good place to start, if it wasn't for the console issue. FE 7 is another good choice, since FE 6 and 8 have quite a few useless characters that no one will bid for... If the characters are really that useless, then we can just leave them undrafted. Or make them free (not like anyone would use them). - Free and banned units would probably be the same as other drafts, except for units that are usually free just to keep the character count divisible by the number of drafters. Paperblade, SDS, and I were thinking about making units free as long as they are forced on the map. Obviously this would be disastrous for a game like FE10 where there are 3 separate earlygames, but it means that there will be less of an advantage to the guy that wins the really good earlygame unit. Like, in FE7, everyone would be free until chapter 14 when the base first appears (and with it, the option to deselect units). Then, we'd also have things like Erk being free for chapter 14 only, Lyn, Florina, Kent, Sain, Wil being free for chapter 16 only, Lyn and Eliwood being free for chapters 20, 26, and final only, etc. - I don't see an issue that would require to change the penalty amounts. Perhaps a higher penalty for using a unit that was heavily bid for I was thinking of implementing a penalty directly proportional to the bid for the character. - Auctioning characters one at a time would probably be best. The problem that we'd identified is, for example, what if after the first 10 auctions, everyone spent almost all of their credits? There'd be nothing left to bid with. Good considerations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) But this necessarily means that one participant will get Marcus/Titania/Seth and almost nothing else while everyone else would have typical teams. It's better to just ban that character altogether. Hm, I suppose so. Edit: Also, I just thought of something. I don't think that everyone will run out of credits, because with N players, once N-1 players run out of credits, the last player would just be able to pick up characters for minimum bid (essentially free), which would encourage people to not squander their credits early. Edited January 7, 2011 by Paperblade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If the characters are really that useless, then we can just leave them undrafted. Or make them free (not like anyone would use them). If nobody wants to buy a character, then they just get left unsold. A bit humiliating for them, I guess, but it's not like anyone cares about Wendy's feelings. The problem that we'd identified is, for example, what if after the first 10 auctions, everyone spent almost all of their credits? There'd be nothing left to bid with. You could set 'maximum prices' on units. But short of Seth, I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to let a bidding war get so out of control that they spend literally all their money on two units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If the characters are really that useless, then we can just leave them undrafted. Or make them free (not like anyone would use them). They'll probably be cheap, but in my opinion leaving them undrafted if no one picks them is probably the best idea. Paperblade, SDS, and I were thinking about making units free as long as they are forced on the map. ...it means that there will be less of an advantage to the guy that wins the really good earlygame unit. That could work. Earlygame is mostly dominated by Marcus/Titania anyway. Not sure what to do about FE 10, though. I was thinking of implementing a penalty directly proportional to the bid for the character. I like that Idea. The problem that we'd identified is, for example, what if after the first 10 auctions, everyone spent almost all of their credits? There'd be nothing left to bid with. We get more credits? I'm not sure about this one, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 We get more credits? I'm not sure about this one, either. I don't think it's possible, personally. Say we have four bidders, and the first three auctions, the first three bidders literally spend all of their money. The fourth bidder can just go ahead and sweep the rest of the auctions for cheap, so he's unlikely to run out of money himself. I don't think there's any way that you could induce everyone to spend all their money, somebody would always be left with something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I don't think it's possible, personally. Say we have four bidders, and the first three auctions, the first three bidders literally spend all of their money. The fourth bidder can just go ahead and sweep the rest of the auctions for cheap, so he's unlikely to run out of money himself. I don't think there's any way that you could induce everyone to spend all their money, somebody would always be left with something. That's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Well, I am more concerned that if we impose a penalty directly proportional to bid value, it's possible that values for earlier drafted characters would be inflated while values for later drafted characters would be deflated. Or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) It might be better to start out with an easy game like FE8. This game can be Seth/Eirika duo'd so playing with a small pool of characters should be fine. The game having an amount of useless characters could also make the bidding easier, because there'd be less characters to care about. Often these things come down to just trying it, and then optimizing it. Edited January 7, 2011 by Excellen Browning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvercrow Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 A minor point and perhaps an obvious one, but I think the auctioneer so to speak should be somebody outside the draft, and they should randomize the order in which the characters are auctioned. It would bring some thought as to how you partition your money: ie. if you want to wait for a character you really want, or go for what you can not knowing what might come next and who might claim certain characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Perhaps we should just try it out, and deal with any issues that crop up as they come. Also, I agree that the order the characters are auctioned should be randomized. Edited January 7, 2011 by Radiant Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Often these things come down to just trying it, and then optimizing it. Exactly what I was going to suggest. There's nothing to fall back to on this, so having some general guidelines and doing it once, even as just as experiment, could be a good idea. Just get any 5 people together and try it out for FE8. They don't have be drafters or anything, just make sure they'll take it seriously as though it's going to be real so you can see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 My only problem with this is that I live in a weird time zone, so arranging to be on at the same time as who-knows-how-many-non-Australians could prove to be difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvercrow Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I can't imagine this would take more than 1-1.5 hours in total as long as everyone was fairly involved. It's pretty easy to arrange times although it would most likely have to be on a weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 We've got people from around the world. If I end up in a West Coast tournament, it's plausible. If there's someone from the East Coast and someone else across the Atlantic, it's not pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvercrow Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 At worst someone might have to stay up later one night or get up earlier one morning, is all I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 That someone would most likely be me. I'm sharpest at around 10 PM, which is a damn awkward time for a lot of people. I *could* be up at 4 AM, but I'm liable to make plenty of mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I'd love in. The thing is that the respective Jeigan (Marcus/Seth/Titania) will always go for a shitload unless that person is available for everyone. So do you play a good portion of your money on Marcus or snap up some cheaper people instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I personally believe they should be free for everyone, since even the person who gets them doesn't get a bunch of other units, they will have such a lead from the earlygame that no one else will be able to catch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) More on the subject of the Oifayes... If they go late enough due to a random order draft and someone picks them up and has a few other okay units, that would be problematic and totally unfair. The metagame would be too centered around keeping enough credits so that you can get that unit when they're up. So I would agree to make them free for a couple early game chapters so that early game units aren't super important (Ch. 1 without Franz or Gilliam is a nightmare, for example) and then ban them so you can't just have them solo maps and keep going (for example, in HNM, Marcus+Hector basically alleviate the need for other units up until The Dread Isle, and even then it's still pretty damn competitive) My primary problem with these units is that in the early chapters where you'd most likely allow them due to a lack of units, they're most overpowering as for many chapters the fastest way to complete them only requires the Lord and that unit (and most of the time, the Lord is only there to seize), so the only difference between playthroughs would be who they gave EXP to (basically, other nubs). For example, the difference between just Hector/Marcus and all units up until Living Legend is marginal. Like, <10 turns, and that could easily be remedied by picking one of Dorcas, Lowen, Oswin, Bartre, Eliwood, Guy, Erk, Florina. It's pretty dumb tbh. Making forced units free wouldn't remedy this, for reasons outlined above. I did a quick run to Ch. 19 in like 20 minutes, and at no point early game was I going "Damn, I really would've liked to field X unit" here. So yeah, I'm gonna say ban them for the most part. FE7 might be able to get away with just letting Marcus be free in Ch. 12 (the difference between Marcus + non-Rebecca members of Eliwood's party is only like 1-2 turns). I know that SDS wants Marcus to be free in Ch. 14 as well because of Pris, so I suppose we could also add a clause saying that Marcus is allowed in Ch. 14 if he stays in a certain area of the map and only goes to recruit Pris? I dislike Marcus being free in Ch. 13 because he and Hector can duo the chapter in liek 6 turns without anyone else having to see combat, and the only way to save a turn is to have Lowen. FE8... Prologue is the same for everyone anyway so Seth makes no difference (there are no draftable units so it'll either be 2 turns with Seth, 3 if you want to level up Eirika or something). In Ch. 1 there aren't enough draftable units to say "suck it up", so perhaps make all forced units free in this chapter. Ch. 2 isn't as bad as NPC Garcia/Ross help out, Eirika has WTA over everything, and you'll have 3 potential combatants. So Seth free in Prologue + Ch.1? idk about Titania, as I said. I want to say that Ike can solo fine but am also pretty sure that's not true in Ch. 4 and might cause problems in Ch. 5-7. Alternately, perhaps allow all forced units EXCEPT for Seth/Titania/Marcus? Edited January 7, 2011 by Paperblade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Shadow Dragon: If the tournament is on anything harder than normal, then whoever is only allowed Marth (and maybe Gordin) for the first chapter is completely and utterly screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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